Joseph Fuerst

Sarah wrote:
> Yes, I agree that you have to be careful "encouraging your children" to
learn something you believe they need to know. Having had the experience of
living to this ripe old age of 49 (omg.. nearly 50 in a few weeks!), having
held several jobs, having attended college,

***I think I have an understanding of what will be expected of my children
in the future and in the careers they each choose to pursue. *****

My response:
I don't know your children's ages, but I DO NOT think for a minute that I
understand what will be expected of MY children (all under 10) in the future
and in their chosen path....career or otherwise.....Who expected
telemarketing, personal computers, the internet 25-30 years ago??
Bill Gates forged his own way....and many lesser knowns. I don't believe
we do know what kind of lives our children can expect when they'rs older.
I have an Associate's Degree in computer science from the early
80's......it's totally useless.
Good day,
Susan

Sarah Carothers

my response:
my children are ages 15.5 and almost 11 (December). Both girls. Oldest wants to become a doctor. Youngest wants to be a rock star (seriously!). She talks of nothing else and hasn't for years.
I believe I understand what's expected especially of the doctor one, moreso than the rockstar one. I've researched all the "how to become a doctor" and books written by doctors, as well as interviewed several doctor/friends and they all basically come away with the same thing... it's important to stand out in your 4 yr college as the best at *whatever* your major(and that can be anything, including a dancer!) and secondly, it helps if that major is in the sciences. So, to that end, I consider myself capable of telling my child what she needs to do now in order to get to point "b". In the context of what technology will be available then, I have no way of forseeing that, either and don't pretend to. We're talking different wave lengths here, I think, Susan.
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Fuerst
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:54 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: encouraging writing


Sarah wrote:
> Yes, I agree that you have to be careful "encouraging your children" to
learn something you believe they need to know. Having had the experience of
living to this ripe old age of 49 (omg.. nearly 50 in a few weeks!), having
held several jobs, having attended college,

***I think I have an understanding of what will be expected of my children
in the future and in the careers they each choose to pursue. *****

My response:
I don't know your children's ages, but I DO NOT think for a minute that I
understand what will be expected of MY children (all under 10) in the future
and in their chosen path....career or otherwise.....Who expected
telemarketing, personal computers, the internet 25-30 years ago??
Bill Gates forged his own way....and many lesser knowns. I don't believe
we do know what kind of lives our children can expect when they'rs older.
I have an Associate's Degree in computer science from the early
80's......it's totally useless.
Good day,
Susan



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:54:36 -0500 "Joseph Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
writes:
> I don't know your children's ages, but I DO NOT think for a minute
that I
> understand what will be expected of MY children (all under 10) in the
future
> and in their chosen path....career or otherwise.....Who expected
> telemarketing, personal computers, the internet 25-30 years ago??

I agree. I heard Pat Montgomery speak on this very issue once, anout how
when he father went to school the nuns back in Ireland all told him they
were preparing him for what lay ahead... and then the Great War started
and he came to the United States and everything was different, and the
nuns hadn't prepared him for any of it...

We never know. Mostly, I find value in being able to adapt and learn, and
if Cacie can do that I've sure she'll be fine.

Dar
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[email protected]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:05:34 -0500 "Sarah Carothers"
<puddles@...> writes:
> I believe I understand what's expected especially of the doctor one,
> moreso than the rockstar one. I've researched all the "how to become
> a doctor" and books written by doctors, as well as interviewed
> several doctor/friends and they all basically come away with the
> same thing... it's important to stand out in your 4 yr college as
> the best at *whatever* your major(and that can be anything,
> including a dancer!) and secondly, it helps if that major is in the
> sciences.

It sounds like you're still looking at the conventional road, though ...
actually, if my daughter wanted to be a physician, I think the first
thing I would do would be to arrange some sort of a job shadow or
internship so she could get some real-world knowledge of the job. When I
was 14, I used to file articles and papers for my dad (who is a
physician, and also in charge of his department's residency program at a
large tecahing hospital) after school many afternoons for a couple of
hours, and just being there was a real eye-opener, even though I'd been
hearing about this stuff all my life. Maybe you've done this, I don't
know. I know my dad has spent hours talking to and emailing people who
were interested in becoming doctors, as well.

I guess the other thing that leaps out for me is that you're talking
about the research that *you* have done... what has your 15 year old done
for herself? I don't see myself doing that sort of stuff for my daughter
in 7 years... if seems like learning how to find out things for herself
would be a helpful thing for her to know..

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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Sarah Carothers

Dar wrote:<Maybe you've done this, I don't
know. >
reply:I have, Dar. And I'd be interested in knowing how you think one can become a licensed physician (neurosurgery, in particular) without jumping the standard hoops. I'd be *very* interested.....

Dar wrote:<I guess the other thing that leaps out for me is that you're talking
about the research that *you* have done... what has your 15 year old done
for herself? >>>>>
reply:I get the feeling I push your buttons, Dar.
She's done her own research and also read the same books I read. Further, she's shadowed several doctors in surgery at our local teaching hospital (Bowman Gray School of Medicine in NC). She's worked with children in a physical therapy type setting. She's teaching herself Anatomy & Physiology from a college reference book.

<<I don't see myself doing that sort of stuff for my daughter
in 7 years... >>>>
Well, I am glad to help my dd anyway I can and this was just one of the ways. While she was teaching gymnastics (her parttime job consisting of 8 hrs a week), I went to borders and bought the books for us to read. I also made the phone call for her to shadow the doctors around. Heck, I even *drove* her to the hospital because she's not a licensed driver yet and I felt the 10 mile walk was just too far.
Go figure.....
Sarah ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: freeform@...
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: encouraging writing




On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:05:34 -0500 "Sarah Carothers"
<puddles@...> writes:
> I believe I understand what's expected especially of the doctor one,
> moreso than the rockstar one. I've researched all the "how to become
> a doctor" and books written by doctors, as well as interviewed
> several doctor/friends and they all basically come away with the
> same thing... it's important to stand out in your 4 yr college as
> the best at *whatever* your major(and that can be anything,
> including a dancer!) and secondly, it helps if that major is in the
> sciences.

It sounds like you're still looking at the conventional road, though ...
actually, if my daughter wanted to be a physician, I think the first
thing I would do would be to arrange some sort of a job shadow or
internship so she could get some real-world knowledge of the job. When I
was 14, I used to file articles and papers for my dad (who is a
physician, and also in charge of his department's residency program at a
large tecahing hospital) after school many afternoons for a couple of
hours, and just being there was a real eye-opener, even though I'd been
hearing about this stuff all my life. Maybe you've done this, I don't
know. I know my dad has spent hours talking to and emailing people who
were interested in becoming doctors, as well.

I guess the other thing that leaps out for me is that you're talking
about the research that *you* have done... what has your 15 year old done
for herself? I don't see myself doing that sort of stuff for my daughter
in 7 years... if seems like learning how to find out things for herself
would be a helpful thing for her to know..

Dar



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:35:25 -0500 "Sarah Carothers"
<puddles@...> writes:
> Dar wrote:<Maybe you've done this, I don't know. >
> reply:I have, Dar. And I'd be interested in knowing how you think
> one can become a licensed physician (neurosurgery, in particular)
> without jumping the standard hoops. I'd be *very* interested.....

I believe you are misquoting me. Nowhere did I say that she wouldn't have
to jump through the standard hoops. I did say, though, that you were
looking at the conventional road, and you are. As an unschooler, she has
the freedom to take on an internship, now, before college, whenever...
she could spend hours every day at a hospital, she could volunteer and
really get into it now... when my dad looks at applicants for the
residency program, he doesn't necessarily pick the ones with the highest
GPA, or the ones from the "best" schools. That's just not enough anymore,
and often the ones with the highest scores don't have what it takes to
succeed as a doctor. But someone who says, "I took an EMT class when I
was 16 at the community college, then spent a summer in Mexico
volunteering for Cruz Roja, and now I'm working towards becoming an ER
doctor" would sure stand out from the crowd, and would clearly know a lot
more about it than the average applicant. Yes, you need a 4 yr degree and
you need to have the prereqs covered, but that's really not a lot to do,
and there's so much more out there...
>
> Dar wrote:<I guess the other thing that leaps out for me is that you're
talking
> about the research that *you* have done... what has your 15 year old
> done for herself? >>>>>
> reply:I get the feeling I push your buttons, Dar.

Why, is that what you're trying to do? The timing of your appearance here
(or your de-lurking) is certainly... interesting.

> She's done her own research and also read the same books I read.
> Further, she's shadowed several doctors in surgery at our local
> teaching hospital (Bowman Gray School of Medicine in NC). She's
> worked with children in a physical therapy type setting. She's
> teaching herself Anatomy & Physiology from a college reference book.

That's wonderful!
>
> <<I don't see myself doing that sort of stuff for my daughter
> in 7 years... >>>>
> Well, I am glad to help my dd anyway I can and this was just one of
> the ways. While she was teaching gymnastics (her parttime job
> consisting of 8 hrs a week), I went to borders and bought the books
> for us to read. I also made the phone call for her to shadow the
> doctors around. Heck, I even *drove* her to the hospital because
> she's not a licensed driver yet and I felt the 10 mile walk was just
> too far. Go figure.....

Sometimes people stoop to sarcasm when they can't really logically
support their points. Just a thought.

I already drive my daughter to things that interest her, because she
can't do that for herself. That's what I'm there for. I'm also here to
help out when she wants it, but she's pretty independent now at 8. I
think would be concerned if at 15, she couldn't find her own books at the
bookstore, or make her own phone calls to people to request a job shadow.
Are you not at all concerned that she'll presumably be off to college in
2 or 3 years, and she's still so dependent on you?

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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Lynda

Ya know, this sort of comment is not productive. Can we expect this sort of
comment each time someone comes out of lurkdom and you don't agree with
them?

Think about it, the same could have been said to you, "The timing of your
appearance here is certainly . . . interesting" when taken in the context of
your more or less introductory post which was in defense of charter schools,
and Horizon in particular.

Lynda

----- Original Message -----
From: <freeform@...>
>
> Why, is that what you're trying to do? The timing of your appearance here
> (or your de-lurking) is certainly... interesting.
>
> > She's done her own research and also read the same books I read.
> > Further, she's shadowed several doctors in surgery at our local
> > teaching hospital (Bowman Gray School of Medicine in NC). She's
> > worked with children in a physical therapy type setting. She's
> > teaching herself Anatomy & Physiology from a college reference book.
>
> That's wonderful!
> >
> > <<I don't see myself doing that sort of stuff for my daughter
> > in 7 years... >>>>
> > Well, I am glad to help my dd anyway I can and this was just one of
> > the ways. While she was teaching gymnastics (her parttime job
> > consisting of 8 hrs a week), I went to borders and bought the books
> > for us to read. I also made the phone call for her to shadow the
> > doctors around. Heck, I even *drove* her to the hospital because
> > she's not a licensed driver yet and I felt the 10 mile walk was just
> > too far. Go figure.....
>
> Sometimes people stoop to sarcasm when they can't really logically
> support their points. Just a thought.
>
> I already drive my daughter to things that interest her, because she
> can't do that for herself. That's what I'm there for. I'm also here to
> help out when she wants it, but she's pretty independent now at 8. I
> think would be concerned if at 15, she couldn't find her own books at the
> bookstore, or make her own phone calls to people to request a job shadow.
> Are you not at all concerned that she'll presumably be off to college in
> 2 or 3 years, and she's still so dependent on you?
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
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>
>

Sarah Carothers

Dar wrote:
<that you were
looking at the conventional road, and you are. As an unschooler, she has
the freedom to take on an internship, now, before college, whenever...
she could spend hours every day at a hospital, she could volunteer and
really get into it now... when my dad looks at applicants for the
residency program, he doesn't necessarily pick the ones with the highest
GPA, or the ones from the "best" schools. That's just not enough anymore,>

EXACTLY. That's just not enough anymore, but it is *still* part of the hoop process.
You are making assumptions about our situation that you do not know. She already *does* do other things besides academic stuff.
Just what is your point of raking us over the coals?
Sarah

----- Original Message -----
From: freeform@...
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: encouraging writing




On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:35:25 -0500 "Sarah Carothers"
<puddles@...> writes:
> Dar wrote:<Maybe you've done this, I don't know. >
> reply:I have, Dar. And I'd be interested in knowing how you think
> one can become a licensed physician (neurosurgery, in particular)
> without jumping the standard hoops. I'd be *very* interested.....

I believe you are misquoting me. Nowhere did I say that she wouldn't have
to jump through the standard hoops. I did say, though, that you were
looking at the conventional road, and you are. As an unschooler, she has
the freedom to take on an internship, now, before college, whenever...
she could spend hours every day at a hospital, she could volunteer and
really get into it now... when my dad looks at applicants for the
residency program, he doesn't necessarily pick the ones with the highest
GPA, or the ones from the "best" schools. That's just not enough anymore,
and often the ones with the highest scores don't have what it takes to
succeed as a doctor. But someone who says, "I took an EMT class when I
was 16 at the community college, then spent a summer in Mexico
volunteering for Cruz Roja, and now I'm working towards becoming an ER
doctor" would sure stand out from the crowd, and would clearly know a lot
more about it than the average applicant. Yes, you need a 4 yr degree and
you need to have the prereqs covered, but that's really not a lot to do,
and there's so much more out there...
>
> Dar wrote:<I guess the other thing that leaps out for me is that you're
talking
> about the research that *you* have done... what has your 15 year old
> done for herself? >>>>>
> reply:I get the feeling I push your buttons, Dar.

Why, is that what you're trying to do? The timing of your appearance here
(or your de-lurking) is certainly... interesting.

> She's done her own research and also read the same books I read.
> Further, she's shadowed several doctors in surgery at our local
> teaching hospital (Bowman Gray School of Medicine in NC). She's
> worked with children in a physical therapy type setting. She's
> teaching herself Anatomy & Physiology from a college reference book.

That's wonderful!
>
> <<I don't see myself doing that sort of stuff for my daughter
> in 7 years... >>>>
> Well, I am glad to help my dd anyway I can and this was just one of
> the ways. While she was teaching gymnastics (her parttime job
> consisting of 8 hrs a week), I went to borders and bought the books
> for us to read. I also made the phone call for her to shadow the
> doctors around. Heck, I even *drove* her to the hospital because
> she's not a licensed driver yet and I felt the 10 mile walk was just
> too far. Go figure.....

Sometimes people stoop to sarcasm when they can't really logically
support their points. Just a thought.

I already drive my daughter to things that interest her, because she
can't do that for herself. That's what I'm there for. I'm also here to
help out when she wants it, but she's pretty independent now at 8. I
think would be concerned if at 15, she couldn't find her own books at the
bookstore, or make her own phone calls to people to request a job shadow.
Are you not at all concerned that she'll presumably be off to college in
2 or 3 years, and she's still so dependent on you?

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah Carothers

Dar wrote:
<Why, is that what you're trying to do? The timing of your appearance here
(or your de-lurking) is certainly... interesting.
>

No, Dar, I am not familiar with you or your past posts as I've not read them.
My "timing" came about because Sandra left. I used to be on and off this list but always left, most often because of something she would say to me.
Sarah



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elsa Haas

When I was 16 and out on my own (with some parental support in the form of
traveler’s checks sent to me in the mail), figuring out what to do with my
life, I ended up staying for a couple of months at the house of a carpenter
in Maine who worked for Shelter Institute (which helps people learn to build
their own houses). I remember reading aloud parts of The Sheepskin Psychosis
(a book which questions the true financial value of college tuition as an
investment), because he kept insisting that I belonged in college (I’d been
accepted through “early admissions”, then ducked out and the last moment and
was swearing I’d never go).

The funny thing about this scene, with me pacing around in front of the
woodstove declaiming and him shaking his head, was that he had gone all the
way through college and med school, and started his residency, before
realizing that he’d never really wanted to be a doctor – that it had been
his parents’ idea, and that what he really wanted to do was to work with his
hands in a more elemental way. He’d also told me that he’d discovered while
doing his emergency room rotation that he was powerless to help most of his
patients. They’d come to him with some horrible problem that could only
truly be resolved through major lifestyle changes, and all he could do was
write them a prescription so they would go away and he could get on to the
next one.

Maybe he could have gone into some form of alternative medicine, given that
such an enormous amount of effort and money had gone into getting him
through med school. But, hey, wait – if we’re going to think of somebody’s
life as an “investment”, maybe all this trouble could have been avoided if
he’d gotten a taste of the reality of being a doctor way back as a teenager!

In my early teens I wanted to be either a doctor or a lawyer because they
were the most difficult college majors I knew of. I suspect a lot of teens
want to be doctors and lawyers because of this, or because of all those
flashy TV series about these two professions. Also, it’s a really safe thing
to say when all those adults start coming at you with the question, “What do
you want to be?” (It’s also a safe thing for parents to say to their
relatives and acquaintances.)

Not saying that’s necessarily the case here, of course – I don’t know Sarah’
s daughter. But an unschooling teen has a great advantage in being able to
take the time to explore options live, in the flesh.

When I was that age, hospitals accepted volunteers starting at age 14. Vets
’ offices might give her more close-up experience in medical procedures.

Later: Just caught this before it escaped my outbox, and after reading Sarah
’s response to Dar. Okay, so it sounds like Sarah’s daughter is already
doing what I was suggesting.

Elsa Haas

Dar wrote:

It sounds like you're still looking at the conventional road, though ...
actually, if my daughter wanted to be a physician, I think the first
thing I would do would be to arrange some sort of a job shadow or
internship so she could get some real-world knowledge of the job.

Dar also wrote:

I guess the other thing that leaps out for me is that you're talking
about the research that *you* have done... what has your 15 year old done
for herself?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:59:47 -0800 "Lynda" <lurine@...> writes:
> Think about it, the same could have been said to you, "The timing of
your
> appearance here is certainly . . . interesting" when taken in the
context of
> your more or less introductory post which was in defense of charter
schools,
> and Horizon in particular.

Except that that wasn't my introductory post, since I've bopped on and
off this list for quite a while. Perhaps that was just the first time you
noticed me... and it's interesting how you focus on Horizon, since that's
the charter I said I had no personal experience with - although I do know
now that you were in error about biweekly work samples.

Dar, who just got a few hundred emails form the past 3 days... I just
love yahoogroups
________________________________________________________________
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Lynda

I wrote: "in defense of charter schools, and Horizon in particular."

To which you responded: "it's interesting how you focus on Horizon, since
that's
the charter I said I had no personal experience with"

Your original statement was: "I don't work for Horizon, but I have friends
who do. They
are probably one of the most unschooling-friendly in the bay area - they
actually do inservices for their ES's on different methods of homeschooling,
including unschooling."

Which IS a defense of charters schools, Horizon in particular.

As to your comment/opinion for which you offer no support, (biweekly work
samples), I didn't say anything about biweekly anythings. I posted copies
of what is in Horizons website and they state "The learning records must be
sent to the Lincoln office electronically within seven (7) rotations of the
earth after the learning period of no more than 20 school days." While
"learning records" can constitute "work samples," 20 days does not
constitute biweekly.

"Except that that wasn't my introductory post, since I've bopped on and off
this list for quite a while. Perhaps that was just the first time you
noticed me" which was precisely my point. "You" decided that the other
poster was new, which wasn't correct. "You" are taking acception to being
judged by the standards you set in your post to judge another list member.

Lynda


----- Original Message -----
From: <freeform@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: encouraging writing


>
>
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:59:47 -0800 "Lynda" <lurine@...> writes:
> > Think about it, the same could have been said to you, "The timing of
> your
> > appearance here is certainly . . . interesting" when taken in the
> context of
> > your more or less introductory post which was in defense of charter
> schools,
> > and Horizon in particular.
>
> Except that that wasn't my introductory post, since I've bopped on and
> off this list for quite a while. Perhaps that was just the first time you
> noticed me... and it's interesting how you focus on Horizon, since that's
> the charter I said I had no personal experience with - although I do know
> now that you were in error about biweekly work samples.
>
> Dar, who just got a few hundred emails form the past 3 days... I just
> love yahoogroups
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:13:10 -0800 "Lynda" <lurine@...> writes:

> Which IS a defense of charters schools, Horizon in particular.

But you chose to quote one line out of all I write that was about
Horizon, when most of what I wrote was about the charters I had actual
experience with. So, to repeat my original post, it's interesting how you
focus on Horizon.
>
> As to your comment/opinion for which you offer no support, (biweekly
> work samples), I didn't say anything about biweekly anythings. I
posted
> copies of what is in Horizons website and they state "The learning
records
> must be sent to the Lincoln office electronically within seven (7)
rotations of the
> earth after the learning period of no more than 20 school days."
> While "learning records" can constitute "work samples," 20 days does
not
> constitute biweekly.

Well, I was wrong about the time increment - it was 4 weeks, not two, but
you did post that Horizon requires work samples every 4 weeks -Message
#27326 - to contradict my statement that Horizon only required work
samples twice a year. I got email from a friend a couple of weeks ago
where she mentioned that it was indeed still twice a year.

Learning records weren't part of the conversation at all, you can go look
it up.
>
> "Except that that wasn't my introductory post, since I've bopped on and
off
> this list for quite a while. Perhaps that was just the first time you
> noticed me" which was precisely my point. "You" decided that the
> other poster was new, which wasn't correct. "You" are taking acception
to
> being judged by the standards you set in your post to judge another
list
> member.

No, the other poster stated that it was her first post and that she had
been a lurker. I didn't say she was new, I said "your appearance (or
delurking)". It was pretty easy to check the website and see that she'd
been here a few months. Unlike you, I don't make those kinds of
assumptions.

Dar
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