Joseph Fuerst

Sheila:
How about by example? I don't mean to sound simplistic here....just
that, for me, trying to be the example of the kind of person I hope they'll
be 'like'. So I need to respect them, and treat them with kindness,
patience, honesty, understanding, unconditional love.

being the human being that I am, I fall short of this at times. But I'm
more and more convinced this is best for all of us....and quite a challenge
at times.
Susan

Those of us who are Christians also have a Biblical mandate to "train
up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not
depart from it". How can we "train up" a child, if we never require
anything of him?
Sheila

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., ddzimlew@j... wrote:
>
> > I do not believe our children belong to us. I believe it's wrong
to
> > control
> > them for our own reasons. We have many more responsibilities to
> > them than
> > they have to us. In a right relationship, our children will treat
us
> > with
> > love and respect (because that is what they have learned and
> > experienced),
> > but I don't believe they OWE us anything.
> > Kathryn
>
> I loved this Kathryn!
> Deb L



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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:25:25 -0500
From: <ElissaJC@...>
Subject: Re: Re: dishes

<<You can ditch the school system, but you don't have to ditch parental
responsibility.>>

I think the other viewpoint is that requiring chores is not ditching
parental responsibility, it is a different way of being responsible.
Elissa



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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:08:34 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Non-scary cartoons?


<< Then I started wondering

whether, if you screw up and let a kid this age see something scary like

this a first time through, you’ve really got to let them watch it again and

again to “process” it. >>

I would sit and watch it with him and do a commentary.

When my kids were that age they really liked Disney Singalong videos, and
there are two Raffi videos. Maybe he would like musical stuff? There's
also
a Land Before Time singalong (so you get the dinosaurs without the
obligatory-per-movie chase scene with Cera screaming her head off, which I
hate and which scares babies).

Kirby was afraid of the Pirates of the Caribbean, on the video. He was
scooting so far back up on a big upholstered chair once he was perched up on
the back of it with no further back to scoot. He couldn't take his eyes off
the show, but the song and music and faces were scaring him. After that I
told him if anything scary came on to call me. He would, and I'd either
sit and talk through it (which breaks the spell of the soundtrack) or I'd
fast-forward if he'd rather.

Muppets (Follow that Bird is one of my favorites, but it's sad, and somewhat
slow and deep for little kids; Muppets Take Manhattan is easier and
quicker),
Sesame Street videos.

Animaniacs Singalongs, Muppet Singaongs.

Movies? There are kid-friendly movies.

Sandra

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd


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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:20:31 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Re: To whom do children belong?


<< How can we "train up" a child, if we never require
anything of him? >>

By talking to them about what you're doing and when and how and why.

By treating them like people instead of "children" (in the worst ownership
ways).

I'm guessing you're already hooked up with the Christian unschooling
site/community. Their explanations might be more to your liking.

Forcing people to do things is very often training them NOT to do it when
you're not there forcing them to do it. Behavior, reading, eating,
anything.

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd


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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:31:43 -0800
From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
Subject: Re: Re:More on pyschological

I don't agree. If the guy was a doctor and he had the x-rays, then he knew
his diagnosis all along. I'd want to know if an autopsy was done and what
that determined to be the cause of death because the spot wasn't news to the
doctor. If he had kept the x-rays, then he did it for a reason. One cannot
know what his reasoning was, but he certainly knew about the spot and the
diagnosis 25 years before.

Deepak Chopra does these leaps and selective use of facts to fit the
scenario he wants to promote quite frequently.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <lite2yu@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:37 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re:More on pyschological


> I am reminded by this discussion of this story Deepak Chopra tells about a
> medical doctor who had not had a check up for 25 years. (Physician! Heal
> thyself!) When he was compelled to get a physical due to life insurance
> requirements, a large dark spot was found on his lung. It was diagnosed as
> inoperable cancer. The doc died a couple of months later. Some days after
the
> funeral, Chopra was sorting through the physician's effects and came
across a
> chest x-ray that was 25 years old. Out of curiosity, he put it up to the
> light and, lo and behold, there was that same dark spot on the lung! The
> deceased doctor had lived a vigorous life all those years and was, in
effect,
> killed by the diagnosis and not the disease.
>
> lovemary
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:42:19 -0000
From: evenson4@...
Subject: new member

hello,
I just signed up for this list. We have two young boys and this is
the
second year we are homeschooling the 6 year old. Last year we were
pretty casual. Well for some reason this year I decided to buy a
boxed
curriculum. It is going OK. He really likes the math and I am
letting
him go at his own rate. But it is the reading that is bothering me.
He is learing to read OK, but it isn't his favorite. He is reading
the
books that came with the curriculum until the present one. He says
he
doesn't want to read it. So then I said to myself, "I don't want to
make him read a book he doesn't want to read". But he isn't really
interested in reading other books on his own either. We go to the
library a lot and he checks out books on subjects that he is
interested
in. Like right now it is hockey. But they are all adult books, he
just looks at the pictures. Which I think is great, but he has no
interest in learning to read them. The main problem is my husband,
he
wants me to teach him to read and write! So has anyone been in my
situation? Being more relaxed than your significant other? I don't
want to force my son to read and turn him off of it. I am just now
relearning to enjoy reading myself and I want to make sure my son
loves
to read. But I also need to keep my husband satisfied. If I tell
him," Oh he will pick it up in a few years, he will be OK". He won't
like that. Well Sorry to make this so long!




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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:47:49 -0000
From: "Kathy" <laurawilder82@...>
Subject: Re: What we say to anyone who criticizes our values

Hi Lovemary,

thanks for the added thoughs. I agree that some people may think they
are trying to help you. I believe that they are really trying to ease
their own discomfort without realising it.

Kathy B.






--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., lite2yu@a... wrote:
> Kathy,
>
> I agree with you 100% . . . and I also think, misguided though it may be,
> people think they are really trying to help you. I guess there can be such
a
> variety of reasons why relatives and others make these types of comments
> ranging from jealousy, longing, pain from their own experience, etc. I do
> think all of it stems from fear. Basically I think our emotions come from
two
> places. . . fear or love, and unfortunately lots of times people are
living
> in a place of fear, ergo all the control.
>
> I do like your suggestions of remaining clear of purpoes in our
conversations
> with loved ones, and not getting into their fear, etc. because it is
really
> about them as you said.
>
> lovemary
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:56:09 -0000
From: "Kathy" <laurawilder82@...>
Subject: Re: What we say to anyone who criticizes our values

sorry I meant to say added "thoughts". "thoughs" makes no sense. that's
what i get for typing with a 4y on my lap. gotta go. time to go play.

KB




--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Kathy" <laurawilder82@y...> wrote:
> Hi Lovemary,
>
> thanks for the added thoughs. I agree that some people may think they
> are trying to help you. I believe that they are really trying to ease
> their own discomfort without realising it.
>
> Kathy B.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., lite2yu@a... wrote:
> > Kathy,
> >
> > I agree with you 100% . . . and I also think, misguided though it may
be,
> > people think they are really trying to help you. I guess there can be
such a
> > variety of reasons why relatives and others make these types of comments
> > ranging from jealousy, longing, pain from their own experience, etc. I
do
> > think all of it stems from fear. Basically I think our emotions come
from two
> > places. . . fear or love, and unfortunately lots of times people are
living
> > in a place of fear, ergo all the control.
> >
> > I do like your suggestions of remaining clear of purpoes in our
conversations
> > with loved ones, and not getting into their fear, etc. because it is
really
> > about them as you said.
> >
> > lovemary
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:18:55 -0000
From: mom2kaalande@...
Subject: Re: unschooling vs. unparenting

Good heavens, I thought if I just ignored this list for awhile,
things would settle down and a more harmonious atmosphere would
prevail. How wrong I was!

Paranoia and hypocrisy seems to abound! No where in the post this
paranoia refers to is any reference specific to Sandra. I'm sure
that with such a ego it will come as a shock, but everything on this
list isn't about Sandra and every post that list members don't agree
with that Bridget makes aren't about Sandra either.

But, the bottomline comes for me when I went back and read the
archieves for all those digests that I deleted. To say that I was
sorely disappointed would be the understatement of the year. There
are many on the list that I held in high regard but while I might
listen to some of the opinions expressed, I will no longer view them
as coming from a place that I might want to be. And in this category
I also include the list owner which is a profound disappointment to
me.

If you are wondering what brought this about, it was the post where
the quote "What benefit there is to her or any of the Arab world, I
can't imagine except that perhaps it is the joy of troublemaking."

Am I the only one here that objects to racists and those that let
racist behavior slide or make, as I am sure will follow, excuses or
justifications for their racist remarks?

And please do not demean yourselves further by using what seems to be
the oft expressed, but demonstratively untrue, sentiment that she has
a good heart, that she is a good person. This simply is not true.
This is a woman that supposedly has a college education, taught
school (thank God not my child) and is or was a journalist. She
knew/knows precisely what she said and what it meant!

And, as to the comment by the one woman that she is a charismatic
speaker which is somehow suppose to make her a good person, so was
Hitler, another racist!

Goodbye to the list. I cannot remain where so many are that practice
looking the other way or worshipping at the alter of a false idol!

Ms. Tery

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Bridget, please talk about unschooling and get off the subject of
me.
> (I'm asking again.)
>
> Sandra
>
> "Everything counts."
> http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
> http://expage.com/SandraDodd



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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:22:35 -0000
From: "Kathy" <laurawilder82@...>
Subject: Re: What we say to anyone who criticizes our values

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., amycats2@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/21/01 7:42:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> laurawilder82@y... writes:
>
> << Anything you say or do will always be filtered through
> their own experiences. That's why their problem with what you do can
> only belong to them.
>
> Gotta get going now. Just a start of a new thought, what do you all
> think?
> >>
> I agree with this. I have found many people who get very defensive when I
say
> we homeschool, as if they see an implied criticism of their schooling
choice
> (which is usually public school.) Interestingly, it is the folks whose
kids
> are in public school, not private or charter, that seem the most
defensive.
> Amy
> Amy Kagey in NW Ohio



That sounds similar to my experience. I also have run into many public
school folks who say they could never homeschool, and then proceed to
complain about how much trouble their school is. How their child is
miserable, how unfair the teacher or other kids are, how stifling, on
and on. They say they could never homeschool because (choose one or all
of the following:) they're not organized enough, coundn't work that
hard, that they don't know enough, that the kids need socializing, or
(the saddest "reason" of all) that they couldn't stand being around
their kids that much. I do mention that I am not really that organized,
and that I find unschooling much easier that fighting a system. Mostly
I just say that the real beauty of homeschooling is that you can work
it out to fit your own families needs, and do what's best the way you
see it. Change things around to use what works and throw out what
doesn't work. It's so flexible, and very individual. Sometimes I get in
a word about a new version of socialization too.

I think many people are afraid of the idea that they alone would be
responsible for teaching their kids everything. I tell them it dosn't
really have to be like that. I am learning with my kids, and they are
part of the process.

anyway I'm rambling again.

Kathy B.




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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:41:49 -0800
From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
Subject: Topics From Dateline

Anyone else watch Dateline last night? Well, here's some new topics to sink
your teeth in.

1) If you prostitute your children's lives, do you have the right to
complain when you don't like parts of their lives making headlines? By
that, I don't mean that you don't have the right to be unhappy about it. I
mean you don't have the right to whine, snivel, complain and shed some tears
over it on national television.

2) For those that run daycares or have foster children: How long would it
be before CPS/CWS appeared on your doorstep (remember these are mainly 3 and
4 year old) if someone called in and said or they saw as a sound bite on the
nightly news that a) you had removed all the handles from the windows of the
bedrooms of 8 children, all of which are on the second floor and then hidden
the handles; b) children standing on top of toys that are as tall or taller
than the railing on a second floor balcony; c) children running around with
knives (not butter knives, sharp knives); d) children playing Cirque du
Soleil from the chandelier; e) children running around unsupervised through
road construction; f) mom taking a switch away from a small child saying,
"that's only for mommy and daddy to use."? And a dozen other things but I
blanked half of them out I was so floored by it all.

3) Since they made a few references to homeschooling these children, how
soon before we get some backlash from the media over the grinning fool
talking about "the Bible says 'spare the rod, spoil the child'" as an excuse
for using a switch on toddlers when asked about discipline.

4) And, speaking of controlling parents and potty training, anyone else
notice mommy dearest thunk the little boy back on the potty chair when he
got up to leave it?

Lynda



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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:53:44 -0000
From: "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
Subject: Re: letting go

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., curtkar@h... wrote:

> Do you think I'm making the right decision?
> This act is a big deal for me.
> If they like meat, they won't be vegetarians any more, like I am.
> I'm willing to accept that, though.
> I guess we'll just see what happens.
>
> Karin

Hi Karin,

Yes, I think you are making a good decision. I was vegetarian for
about five years because it was what my body needed. My oldest on
the other hand needs a lot of meat. Oh, sure she can get lots of
protein other ways but it just never seems to fill her up like meat
does. I think it is a difference in our bodies.
Anyway, I let her have all the meat she wanted but she had to learn
to cook it for herself when I couldn't stand the smell of it. She
learned and never once complained about having to cook it. Of course
yours are a little younger but I'm sure it will work itself out.

Bridget






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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:02:33 -0000
From: "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
Subject: Re: Psychological/Physical


There is a big difference between saying:
>
> I believe that there is a psychological factor to all illnesses.

And saying:

> Everything that happens first begins as a thought, whether
> totally conscious or subconscious or some variation therein.


The first I agree with wholeheartedly. The second I disagree with
equally strongly. Not that there can be no psychologically initiated
disorders - just that there are some that are purely out of our
control and not started by a thought, conscious or otherwise.

Bridget




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Message: 21
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:13:52 -0800
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Psychological/Physical


>Also, what about all the people
>that have healed themselves of 'incurable' diseases by
>sheer mind power. I wonder if that's like what's being
>discussed here in reverse?

It probably is. I think it's important in these cases to be careful not to
imply that anybody should be able to do the same with their illness.(I'm
not saying you're doing that at all.) I went to a new age church for a
while and the minister told a story about when his mother was dying of
cancer. This was before I was attending, and I never met his
mother. Apparently there were a number of people in the church who had
criticized both the minister and his mother for *not* being able to heal
her with thought. Sheesh! There's *so much* involved in any illness. It
can be awfully hard to sort out what's affecting what.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island







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Message: 22
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:14:55 -0800
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
Subject: Cleaning Fairies


><<I thought it said "then we have a cleaning fairy."
>
>Boy, was I jealous for a moment!
>
>Betsy <g>>>
>
>I'd like one of those! <vbg>

Is somebody taking orders? <g> I'll take one too.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island







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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:27:00 -0800
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
Subject: Re: Re: To whom do children belong?

At 03:14 PM 11/21/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Those of us who are Christians also have a Biblical mandate to "train
>up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not
>depart from it". How can we "train up" a child, if we never require
>anything of him?

By example. Works better anyway.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island







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Message: 24
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:32:42 -0800
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
Subject: Re: What we say to anyone who criticizes our values

...Good stuff snipped


>When others have a problem with what I'm doing, I might say again
>nicely that "We are having a fine time and the unschooling (or
>whatever) is really working for us". I won't go on the
>defensive, because that puts them in control of the situation. Their
>feelings are real, but they are not about anything you are doing. They
>are all about what they've done, and experienced in
>their own life. Anything you say or do will always be filtered through
>their own experiences. That's why their problem with what you do can
>only belong to them.
>
>Gotta get going now. Just a start of a new thought, what do you all
>think?

I quite agree with you. Good points. I think I might even go so far next
time as to respond with something like, "So, I guess school works really
well for your kids, eh?"
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island







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Message: 25
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:15:38 -0000
From: "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
Subject: Re: unschooling vs. unparenting

Tia,
Consider that I originally wrote that paragraph to read:
"I personally want to know if my words are coming across meaning
something I don't. When it happened frequently I went back to see if
I could figure out why. But I could only do that if I heard what
others thought I mean in a resectful way."

I changed the wording because the same thing had just happened with a
different person here just before I wrote it and I'd seen it before.
So I decided it was applicable to many others and I rewrote to be a
neutral "one". If you saw something else, maybe you might want to
contemplate whether you are reading what I write, or what you THINK I
write.

Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
>
>
> >I should think that one would want to know if one's words are
coming
> >across as meaning something they don't. If it happens frequently
one
> >might want to go back and reread one's own words to see WHY they
had
> >unintended effects. But one can't do that unless one hears how
> >others interpreted him/her.
>
> *If* it was important to that person that her words be heard in
exactly the
> way she intended them by every person on this list, she would have
listened
> to you by now and changed her "evil" ways. Since she hasn't, I
assume that
> your perceptions are not a priority for her. Every time this issue
seems
> to have settled down, up it pops again. You're flogging a dead
horse, Bridget.
> Tia
>



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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Elsa Haas

I wonder what the various translations of the phrase “train up a child” would be in different Bibles? (I’m not trying to pick a fight – just interested.) 

There is a book called Spare the Child (by Philip Grevin, I think) that discusses, among other things, the translation of the phrase “spare the rod, spoil the child”. As I remember, Grevin’s point has something to do with whether the “rod” referred originally to something used to beat a person or animal, or to a thing used by shepherds to simply “guide” the flock with movements that will cause it to head off in the opposite direction, just because sheep are naturally skittish (the same way flies flee your moving hand even if they’ve never been hit before).

I’m not religious, partly because I always wondered, when people talk about their belief in the “literal interpretation of the Bible”: which Bible? (Having been a translator, I know how much translations can vary.)

Elsa Haas



Sheila wrote:
Those of us who are Christians also have a Biblical mandate to "train
up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not
depart from it". How can we "train up" a child, if we never require
anything of him?
Sheila

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/22/01 5:31:10 PM Mountain Standard Time,
ElsaHaas@... writes:


> when people talk about their belief in the “literal interpretation of the
>

They mean the King James version of the Bible which is considered by
fundamentalists to be the culmination of all Bible life from scroll to
printing press (and by the most ignorant fundamentalists to be the literal
words of Christ, as though he spoke 17th century English).

There are ten English translations with search features at
http://www.believershope.com/bible.htm

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

As a fundamantalist--one who adheres to the fundamentals of the Bible-
-I believe that the Bible, in its original writing, is infallible.
Certainly there may be errors in translation. Certainly I don't
believe the King James version of the Bible is better than any other
translation. What I usually do when I want to know about a
particular word is get a Greek/Hebrew dictionary/concordance and look
up the particular word to see in which other verses that word is used
and in what context, as well as its meaning.

Sheila

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/22/01 5:31:10 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> ElsaHaas@s... writes:
>
>
> > when people talk about their belief in the “literal
interpretation of the
> >
>
> They mean the King James version of the Bible which is considered
by
> fundamentalists to be the culmination of all Bible life from scroll
to
> printing press (and by the most ignorant fundamentalists to be the
literal
> words of Christ, as though he spoke 17th century English).
>
> There are ten English translations with search features at
> http://www.believershope.com/bible.htm
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]