Topics From Dateline
Lynda
Anyone else watch Dateline last night? Well, here's some new topics to sink
your teeth in.
1) If you prostitute your children's lives, do you have the right to
complain when you don't like parts of their lives making headlines? By
that, I don't mean that you don't have the right to be unhappy about it. I
mean you don't have the right to whine, snivel, complain and shed some tears
over it on national television.
2) For those that run daycares or have foster children: How long would it
be before CPS/CWS appeared on your doorstep (remember these are mainly 3 and
4 year old) if someone called in and said or they saw as a sound bite on the
nightly news that a) you had removed all the handles from the windows of the
bedrooms of 8 children, all of which are on the second floor and then hidden
the handles; b) children standing on top of toys that are as tall or taller
than the railing on a second floor balcony; c) children running around with
knives (not butter knives, sharp knives); d) children playing Cirque du
Soleil from the chandelier; e) children running around unsupervised through
road construction; f) mom taking a switch away from a small child saying,
"that's only for mommy and daddy to use."? And a dozen other things but I
blanked half of them out I was so floored by it all.
3) Since they made a few references to homeschooling these children, how
soon before we get some backlash from the media over the grinning fool
talking about "the Bible says 'spare the rod, spoil the child'" as an excuse
for using a switch on toddlers when asked about discipline.
4) And, speaking of controlling parents and potty training, anyone else
notice mommy dearest thunk the little boy back on the potty chair when he
got up to leave it?
Lynda
your teeth in.
1) If you prostitute your children's lives, do you have the right to
complain when you don't like parts of their lives making headlines? By
that, I don't mean that you don't have the right to be unhappy about it. I
mean you don't have the right to whine, snivel, complain and shed some tears
over it on national television.
2) For those that run daycares or have foster children: How long would it
be before CPS/CWS appeared on your doorstep (remember these are mainly 3 and
4 year old) if someone called in and said or they saw as a sound bite on the
nightly news that a) you had removed all the handles from the windows of the
bedrooms of 8 children, all of which are on the second floor and then hidden
the handles; b) children standing on top of toys that are as tall or taller
than the railing on a second floor balcony; c) children running around with
knives (not butter knives, sharp knives); d) children playing Cirque du
Soleil from the chandelier; e) children running around unsupervised through
road construction; f) mom taking a switch away from a small child saying,
"that's only for mommy and daddy to use."? And a dozen other things but I
blanked half of them out I was so floored by it all.
3) Since they made a few references to homeschooling these children, how
soon before we get some backlash from the media over the grinning fool
talking about "the Bible says 'spare the rod, spoil the child'" as an excuse
for using a switch on toddlers when asked about discipline.
4) And, speaking of controlling parents and potty training, anyone else
notice mommy dearest thunk the little boy back on the potty chair when he
got up to leave it?
Lynda
Tia Leschke
At 09:41 AM 11/21/01 -0800, you wrote:
what the context is here.
about all this.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
>Anyone else watch Dateline last night? Well, here's some new topics to sinkMore details would help those of us who didn't watch it. I have no idea
>your teeth in.
>
>1) If you prostitute your children's lives, do you have the right to
>complain when you don't like parts of their lives making headlines? By
>that, I don't mean that you don't have the right to be unhappy about it. I
>mean you don't have the right to whine, snivel, complain and shed some tears
>over it on national television.
what the context is here.
>2) For those that run daycares or have foster children: How long would itWho *are* these people? You've definitely got me wanting to know more
>be before CPS/CWS appeared on your doorstep (remember these are mainly 3 and
>4 year old) if someone called in and said or they saw as a sound bite on the
>nightly news that a) you had removed all the handles from the windows of the
>bedrooms of 8 children, all of which are on the second floor and then hidden
>the handles; b) children standing on top of toys that are as tall or taller
>than the railing on a second floor balcony; c) children running around with
>knives (not butter knives, sharp knives); d) children playing Cirque du
>Soleil from the chandelier; e) children running around unsupervised through
>road construction; f) mom taking a switch away from a small child saying,
>"that's only for mommy and daddy to use."? And a dozen other things but I
>blanked half of them out I was so floored by it all.
>
>3) Since they made a few references to homeschooling these children, how
>soon before we get some backlash from the media over the grinning fool
>talking about "the Bible says 'spare the rod, spoil the child'" as an excuse
>for using a switch on toddlers when asked about discipline.
about all this.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
> Anyone else watch Dateline last night?I didn't see it and it sounds perfectly revolting!
Deb L
Lynda
That family where the woman took fertility drugs and had 7 children. They
were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one could only
dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of them),
furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have sold the
rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of the
pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They have
been living off having the kids.
Lynda
were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one could only
dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of them),
furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have sold the
rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of the
pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They have
been living off having the kids.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
> At 09:41 AM 11/21/01 -0800, you wrote:
> >Anyone else watch Dateline last night? Well, here's some new topics to
sink
> >your teeth in.
> >
> >1) If you prostitute your children's lives, do you have the right to
> >complain when you don't like parts of their lives making headlines? By
> >that, I don't mean that you don't have the right to be unhappy about it.
I
> >mean you don't have the right to whine, snivel, complain and shed some
tears
> >over it on national television.
>
> More details would help those of us who didn't watch it. I have no idea
> what the context is here.
>
>
> >2) For those that run daycares or have foster children: How long would
it
> >be before CPS/CWS appeared on your doorstep (remember these are mainly 3
and
> >4 year old) if someone called in and said or they saw as a sound bite on
the
> >nightly news that a) you had removed all the handles from the windows of
the
> >bedrooms of 8 children, all of which are on the second floor and then
hidden
> >the handles; b) children standing on top of toys that are as tall or
taller
> >than the railing on a second floor balcony; c) children running around
with
> >knives (not butter knives, sharp knives); d) children playing Cirque du
> >Soleil from the chandelier; e) children running around unsupervised
through
> >road construction; f) mom taking a switch away from a small child saying,
> >"that's only for mommy and daddy to use."? And a dozen other things but
I
> >blanked half of them out I was so floored by it all.
> >
> >3) Since they made a few references to homeschooling these children, how
> >soon before we get some backlash from the media over the grinning fool
> >talking about "the Bible says 'spare the rod, spoil the child'" as an
excuse
> >for using a switch on toddlers when asked about discipline.
>
> Who *are* these people? You've definitely got me wanting to know more
> about all this.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
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> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
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>
>
Bridget
It's not really a new phenomenon though. Remember the Dionne Quints?
Bridget
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> That family where the woman took fertility drugs and had 7
children. They
> were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one
could only
> dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of
them),
> furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have
sold the
> rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of
the
> pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They
have
> been living off having the kids.
>
> Lynda
Tanya Barrera
http://www.msnbc.com/news/660542.asp
Transcript for dateline.
Tanya B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Transcript for dateline.
Tanya B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
I don't have a problem is you choose to do that with your children. Not
something I would do "to" my kids. However, if you make the choice and take
the money, I do have a problem with whining because your kids end up in
headlines. Or maybe it was the whole thing with daddy sitting there with a
silly grin on his face saying the bible tells him to use a switch on his
kids and it was down hill from there.
Lynda
something I would do "to" my kids. However, if you make the choice and take
the money, I do have a problem with whining because your kids end up in
headlines. Or maybe it was the whole thing with daddy sitting there with a
silly grin on his face saying the bible tells him to use a switch on his
kids and it was down hill from there.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Bridget <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:29 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Topics From Dateline
> It's not really a new phenomenon though. Remember the Dionne Quints?
>
> Bridget
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> > That family where the woman took fertility drugs and had 7
> children. They
> > were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one
> could only
> > dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of
> them),
> > furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have
> sold the
> > rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of
> the
> > pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They
> have
> > been living off having the kids.
> >
> > Lynda
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Tia Leschke
At 11:09 AM 11/21/01 -0800, you wrote:
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
>That family where the woman took fertility drugs and had 7 children. TheyI see. Excuse me while I puke. Thanks for filling me in.
>were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one could only
>dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of them),
>furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have sold the
>rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of the
>pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They have
>been living off having the kids.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Elsa Haas
About the parents of the septuplets living off their kids:
Though its true the parents have gotten all sorts of corporate charity,
according to Dateline the father was a stay-at-home dad (helping to take
care of the kids and traveling around giving talks) for only a year and a
half. The income from the talks was erratic, he felt unfulfilled, and his
wife was tired of having him around the house feeling that way, so after
that time he got a job in some factory. Just wanted to keep the so-called
record straight. (I wonder why he feels more fulfilled working in a factory
than doing half the work of caring for seven four-year-olds and one older
child, only two of whom are in part-time school, but thats part of the big
questions about why mens work is valued more than womens work.)
About the four-year-old septuplets climbing up high and so on:
I wasnt especially alarmed about their climbing. My two-year-old climbs
like that. I couldnt see how sharp the knives were, so dont know whether I
d let him run around with them. Couldnt really tell whether the kids
standing on the table were actually trying to swing on the chandelier or
just swinging it back and forth. I missed the road work scene. I think that
if you invited camera crew into almost any house with small children in it,
they could splice together some pretty alarming-looking stunts. If that
footage wasnt possible to record, Id wonder whether the parents werent
holding back too much of that youthful daring. Maybe the proof is in the
pudding with seven kids having reached the age of four years, theres been
only been one broken finger and one set of stitches. Not such a bad record,
compared to what Ive heard around the neighborhood from parents with just
one kid in their care.
About the mothers whining and sniveling on TV because some in the media
have questioned whether it is a good idea to bring into the world children
who may be disabled (two of the septuplets have cerebral palsy):
You seem to be saying that once youve sold your privacy to the media, you
can no longer react to what they say about you and your family. To me, it
seems worse to sell your privacy plus your right to express yourself than to
just sell yur privacy.
About the references to spare the rod, spoil the child:
I agree with you. As someone who struggles not to hit my son, it always
bothers me to see people who dont struggle with it at all, but instead
consider it a duty. I feel compassion for any parent living with septuplets,
and could understand if they struggled not to hit and lost that struggle on
occasion, but I hate it when they simply feel completely justified in doing
it.
About the more general question of whether they were right to take fertility
drugs, or to carry all seven babies to term:
I dunno, I guess I prefer adoption.
Overall:
I didnt catch the beginning of the segment, so I may have missed key
points.
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynda [mailto:lurine@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 2:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
That family where the woman took fertility drugs and had 7 children. They
were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one could only
dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of them),
furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have sold the
rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of the
pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They have
been living off having the kids.
Lynda
Though its true the parents have gotten all sorts of corporate charity,
according to Dateline the father was a stay-at-home dad (helping to take
care of the kids and traveling around giving talks) for only a year and a
half. The income from the talks was erratic, he felt unfulfilled, and his
wife was tired of having him around the house feeling that way, so after
that time he got a job in some factory. Just wanted to keep the so-called
record straight. (I wonder why he feels more fulfilled working in a factory
than doing half the work of caring for seven four-year-olds and one older
child, only two of whom are in part-time school, but thats part of the big
questions about why mens work is valued more than womens work.)
About the four-year-old septuplets climbing up high and so on:
I wasnt especially alarmed about their climbing. My two-year-old climbs
like that. I couldnt see how sharp the knives were, so dont know whether I
d let him run around with them. Couldnt really tell whether the kids
standing on the table were actually trying to swing on the chandelier or
just swinging it back and forth. I missed the road work scene. I think that
if you invited camera crew into almost any house with small children in it,
they could splice together some pretty alarming-looking stunts. If that
footage wasnt possible to record, Id wonder whether the parents werent
holding back too much of that youthful daring. Maybe the proof is in the
pudding with seven kids having reached the age of four years, theres been
only been one broken finger and one set of stitches. Not such a bad record,
compared to what Ive heard around the neighborhood from parents with just
one kid in their care.
About the mothers whining and sniveling on TV because some in the media
have questioned whether it is a good idea to bring into the world children
who may be disabled (two of the septuplets have cerebral palsy):
You seem to be saying that once youve sold your privacy to the media, you
can no longer react to what they say about you and your family. To me, it
seems worse to sell your privacy plus your right to express yourself than to
just sell yur privacy.
About the references to spare the rod, spoil the child:
I agree with you. As someone who struggles not to hit my son, it always
bothers me to see people who dont struggle with it at all, but instead
consider it a duty. I feel compassion for any parent living with septuplets,
and could understand if they struggled not to hit and lost that struggle on
occasion, but I hate it when they simply feel completely justified in doing
it.
About the more general question of whether they were right to take fertility
drugs, or to carry all seven babies to term:
I dunno, I guess I prefer adoption.
Overall:
I didnt catch the beginning of the segment, so I may have missed key
points.
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynda [mailto:lurine@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 2:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
That family where the woman took fertility drugs and had 7 children. They
were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one could only
dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of them),
furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have sold the
rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of the
pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They have
been living off having the kids.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
> At 09:41 AM 11/21/01 -0800, you wrote:
> >Anyone else watch Dateline last night? Well, here's some new topics to
sink
> >your teeth in.
> >
> >1) If you prostitute your children's lives, do you have the right to
> >complain when you don't like parts of their lives making headlines? By
> >that, I don't mean that you don't have the right to be unhappy about it.
I
> >mean you don't have the right to whine, snivel, complain and shed some
tears
> >over it on national television.
>
> More details would help those of us who didn't watch it. I have no idea
> what the context is here.
>
>
> >2) For those that run daycares or have foster children: How long would
it
> >be before CPS/CWS appeared on your doorstep (remember these are mainly 3
and
> >4 year old) if someone called in and said or they saw as a sound bite on
the
> >nightly news that a) you had removed all the handles from the windows of
the
> >bedrooms of 8 children, all of which are on the second floor and then
hidden
> >the handles; b) children standing on top of toys that are as tall or
taller
> >than the railing on a second floor balcony; c) children running around
with
> >knives (not butter knives, sharp knives); d) children playing Cirque du
> >Soleil from the chandelier; e) children running around unsupervised
through
> >road construction; f) mom taking a switch away from a small child saying,
> >"that's only for mommy and daddy to use."? And a dozen other things but
I
> >blanked half of them out I was so floored by it all.
> >
> >3) Since they made a few references to homeschooling these children, how
> >soon before we get some backlash from the media over the grinning fool
> >talking about "the Bible says 'spare the rod, spoil the child'" as an
excuse
> >for using a switch on toddlers when asked about discipline.
>
> Who *are* these people? You've definitely got me wanting to know more
> about all this.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kathy
Hi Everyone,
For everyone getting worked up about the Dateline show I think it's
important to remember that the show specializes in just that. They are
another form of sensationalism. Of shocking for
entertainment in the guise of information.
They have their angle on every story and carefully control what they
show for maximum effect. Not for unbiased reporting or investigative
journalism. It should come with a disclaimer- "this
show is for entertainment purposes only".
I don't personally find it entertaining. Obviously I'm in the minority
because it's still on the air. I don't have any problem with anybody
else watching it. I think they realize it's manufactured
to a degree.
I don't believe that the show would want to capture an honest picture
of how the family is. I am not claiming the family is made of saints
(or actually to know anything about them at all), only that we cannot
know their whole situation.
It's just like the doctor with the spot story. It is hearsay used to
promote the reporter's story. There may or may not be any actual facts.
So instead of arguing about the family, or doctor's, facts we could
remember that we will never know the facts. We will know our own
experiences with similar situations of course, that's
probably what the discussion is really about. It is helpful to share
them as facts in your personal experience.
Let's knock off the defensiveness, sarcasm, name calling, and all that
because it gets the list nowhere.
All that lead by example stuff is true, we're not going to get someone
to change their mind about corporal punishment by suggesting they're on
the wrong list. Give examples of how other
ideas work for your family, without calling the hitter a boob. People
are open to change/new ideas when they feel safe to voice their
concerns and get help. Whacking them with righteous
indignation will not change anyone's mind.
Now if everyone who is mad about anything I just posted can reply with
a thoughtful alternative view if they really disagree with the general
idea of what I've said. No personal accusations,
name calling, sarcasm, slightly paranoid ego trips (taking this as an
attack on only yourself), or defending ghosts (those who are offended
but haven't spoken for themselves out of fear).
Kathy B.
having perhaps committed all the sins she now rails against.
ps- any hate stuff (anywhere in life) really is unproductive. It boils
down to not taking others so personally because their words, and
actions are all about them, not you. You are free to follow
your own life.
Here's a mysto book that has some interesting ideas. Take what ideas
may interest, chuck the rest as hooey if you like. No, I don't work for
amazon. It's just a one link way to describe the
book.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1878424319/qid=1006432328/sr=1-
1/ref=sr_1_15_1/103-1945494-7959865
For everyone getting worked up about the Dateline show I think it's
important to remember that the show specializes in just that. They are
another form of sensationalism. Of shocking for
entertainment in the guise of information.
They have their angle on every story and carefully control what they
show for maximum effect. Not for unbiased reporting or investigative
journalism. It should come with a disclaimer- "this
show is for entertainment purposes only".
I don't personally find it entertaining. Obviously I'm in the minority
because it's still on the air. I don't have any problem with anybody
else watching it. I think they realize it's manufactured
to a degree.
I don't believe that the show would want to capture an honest picture
of how the family is. I am not claiming the family is made of saints
(or actually to know anything about them at all), only that we cannot
know their whole situation.
It's just like the doctor with the spot story. It is hearsay used to
promote the reporter's story. There may or may not be any actual facts.
So instead of arguing about the family, or doctor's, facts we could
remember that we will never know the facts. We will know our own
experiences with similar situations of course, that's
probably what the discussion is really about. It is helpful to share
them as facts in your personal experience.
Let's knock off the defensiveness, sarcasm, name calling, and all that
because it gets the list nowhere.
All that lead by example stuff is true, we're not going to get someone
to change their mind about corporal punishment by suggesting they're on
the wrong list. Give examples of how other
ideas work for your family, without calling the hitter a boob. People
are open to change/new ideas when they feel safe to voice their
concerns and get help. Whacking them with righteous
indignation will not change anyone's mind.
Now if everyone who is mad about anything I just posted can reply with
a thoughtful alternative view if they really disagree with the general
idea of what I've said. No personal accusations,
name calling, sarcasm, slightly paranoid ego trips (taking this as an
attack on only yourself), or defending ghosts (those who are offended
but haven't spoken for themselves out of fear).
Kathy B.
having perhaps committed all the sins she now rails against.
ps- any hate stuff (anywhere in life) really is unproductive. It boils
down to not taking others so personally because their words, and
actions are all about them, not you. You are free to follow
your own life.
Here's a mysto book that has some interesting ideas. Take what ideas
may interest, chuck the rest as hooey if you like. No, I don't work for
amazon. It's just a one link way to describe the
book.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1878424319/qid=1006432328/sr=1-
1/ref=sr_1_15_1/103-1945494-7959865
Lynda
Well, the context of the switch was what bothered me and it is a button. I
freely admit that.
the other thing that bothered me was the father's generally feeling that
dangerous acts by small children are funny. I guess if they were my kids I
wouldn't have tall toys that I know they will climb on sitting next to the
railing of a second story balcony. AND if I did, I certainly wouldn't stand
by and watch as the tv crew filmed when they did climb on the toys. I'd
distract the child so he would climb down and then move the toy. The father
had just finished telling a story about them hanging out the upstairs
windows when they were two and how far it is to the ground
Lynda
freely admit that.
the other thing that bothered me was the father's generally feeling that
dangerous acts by small children are funny. I guess if they were my kids I
wouldn't have tall toys that I know they will climb on sitting next to the
railing of a second story balcony. AND if I did, I certainly wouldn't stand
by and watch as the tv crew filmed when they did climb on the toys. I'd
distract the child so he would climb down and then move the toy. The father
had just finished telling a story about them hanging out the upstairs
windows when they were two and how far it is to the ground
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Elsa Haas <ElsaHaas@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 1:04 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
> About the parents of the septuplets' "living off their kids":
>
> Though it's true the parents have gotten all sorts of corporate charity,
> according to Dateline the father was a "stay-at-home dad" (helping to take
> care of the kids and traveling around giving talks) for only a year and a
> half. The income from the talks was erratic, he felt unfulfilled, and his
> wife was tired of having him around the house feeling that way, so after
> that time he got a job in some factory. Just wanted to keep the so-called
> record straight. (I wonder why he feels more fulfilled working in a
factory
> than doing half the work of caring for seven four-year-olds and one older
> child, only two of whom are in part-time school, but that's part of the
big
> questions about why "men's work" is valued more than "women's work".)
>
> About the four-year-old septuplets climbing up high and so on:
>
> I wasn't especially alarmed about their climbing. My two-year-old climbs
> like that. I couldn't see how sharp the knives were, so don't know whether
I
> 'd let him "run around" with them. Couldn't really tell whether the kids
> standing on the table were actually trying to swing on the chandelier or
> just swinging it back and forth. I missed the road work scene. I think
that
> if you invited camera crew into almost any house with small children in
it,
> they could splice together some pretty alarming-looking stunts. If that
> footage wasn't possible to record, I'd wonder whether the parents weren't
> holding back too much of that youthful daring. Maybe the proof is in the
> pudding - with seven kids having reached the age of four years, there's
been
> only been one broken finger and one set of stitches. Not such a bad
record,
> compared to what I've heard around the neighborhood from parents with just
> one kid in their care.
>
> About the mother's "whining and sniveling" on TV because some in the media
> have questioned whether it is a good idea to bring into the world children
> who may be disabled (two of the septuplets have cerebral palsy):
>
> You seem to be saying that once you've sold your privacy to the media, you
> can no longer react to what they say about you and your family. To me, it
> seems worse to sell your privacy plus your right to express yourself than
to
> just sell yur privacy.
>
> About the references to "spare the rod, spoil the child":
>
> I agree with you. As someone who struggles not to hit my son, it always
> bothers me to see people who don't struggle with it at all, but instead
> consider it a duty. I feel compassion for any parent living with
septuplets,
> and could understand if they struggled not to hit and lost that struggle
on
> occasion, but I hate it when they simply feel completely justified in
doing
> it.
>
> About the more general question of whether they were right to take
fertility
> drugs, or to carry all seven babies to term:
>
> I dunno, I guess I prefer adoption.
>
> Overall:
>
> I didn't catch the beginning of the segment, so I may have missed key
> points.
>
> Elsa Haas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lynda [mailto:lurine@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 2:10 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
>
> That family where the woman took fertility drugs and had 7 children. They
> were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one could
only
> dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of them),
> furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have sold the
> rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of the
> pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They have
> been living off having the kids.
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
>
>
> > At 09:41 AM 11/21/01 -0800, you wrote:
> > >Anyone else watch Dateline last night? Well, here's some new topics to
> sink
> > >your teeth in.
> > >
> > >1) If you prostitute your children's lives, do you have the right to
> > >complain when you don't like parts of their lives making headlines? By
> > >that, I don't mean that you don't have the right to be unhappy about
it.
> I
> > >mean you don't have the right to whine, snivel, complain and shed some
> tears
> > >over it on national television.
> >
> > More details would help those of us who didn't watch it. I have no idea
> > what the context is here.
> >
> >
> > >2) For those that run daycares or have foster children: How long
would
> it
> > >be before CPS/CWS appeared on your doorstep (remember these are mainly
3
> and
> > >4 year old) if someone called in and said or they saw as a sound bite
on
> the
> > >nightly news that a) you had removed all the handles from the windows
of
> the
> > >bedrooms of 8 children, all of which are on the second floor and then
> hidden
> > >the handles; b) children standing on top of toys that are as tall or
> taller
> > >than the railing on a second floor balcony; c) children running around
> with
> > >knives (not butter knives, sharp knives); d) children playing Cirque du
> > >Soleil from the chandelier; e) children running around unsupervised
> through
> > >road construction; f) mom taking a switch away from a small child
saying,
> > >"that's only for mommy and daddy to use."? And a dozen other things
but
> I
> > >blanked half of them out I was so floored by it all.
> > >
> > >3) Since they made a few references to homeschooling these children,
how
> > >soon before we get some backlash from the media over the grinning fool
> > >talking about "the Bible says 'spare the rod, spoil the child'" as an
> excuse
> > >for using a switch on toddlers when asked about discipline.
> >
> > Who *are* these people? You've definitely got me wanting to know more
> > about all this.
> > Tia
> >
> > No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> > Eleanor Roosevelt
> > *********************************************
> > Tia Leschke
> > leschke@...
> > On Vancouver Island
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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Elsa Haas
One last thought, on safety and the reactions of social workers:
The reference I heard to a knife (I probably missed something) was when the
older sister complained to the mother, about one of the septuplets, that he
got the knife and he was using it to cut the bag open (Im paraphrasing).
The mothers response was to take the four-year-old by the arm and tell him
very seriously that he was not allowed to get anything off the counter or
out of the cabinets. (Wow, Id hate to restrict my sons activities that
severely when he gets to be four!) It wasnt clear to me whether this was to
be followed by one of the spankings the father talked about at some other
point.
I think social workers, if concerned that a certain activity was dangerous,
would be likely to excuse the parents as long as they were forbidding it -
even if the forbidding wasnt working. Something like, I told him not to
climb up there, he disobeyed me and fell, so his broken arm/leg/back is not
my fault.
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynda [mailto:lurine@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 2:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
That family where the woman took fertility drugs and had 7 children. They
were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one could only
dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of them),
furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have sold the
rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of the
pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They have
been living off having the kids.
Lynda
The reference I heard to a knife (I probably missed something) was when the
older sister complained to the mother, about one of the septuplets, that he
got the knife and he was using it to cut the bag open (Im paraphrasing).
The mothers response was to take the four-year-old by the arm and tell him
very seriously that he was not allowed to get anything off the counter or
out of the cabinets. (Wow, Id hate to restrict my sons activities that
severely when he gets to be four!) It wasnt clear to me whether this was to
be followed by one of the spankings the father talked about at some other
point.
I think social workers, if concerned that a certain activity was dangerous,
would be likely to excuse the parents as long as they were forbidding it -
even if the forbidding wasnt working. Something like, I told him not to
climb up there, he disobeyed me and fell, so his broken arm/leg/back is not
my fault.
Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynda [mailto:lurine@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 2:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
That family where the woman took fertility drugs and had 7 children. They
were given a brand new BIG house (7 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, one could only
dream <g>), a new Suburban, diapers (until the kids are out of them),
furniture, food, clothing (some/most for advertising). They have sold the
rights to birthdays to Dateline, photo ops to Simplicity (or one of the
pattern companies), commercials and hubby does seminars, etc. They have
been living off having the kids.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Topics From Dateline
> At 09:41 AM 11/21/01 -0800, you wrote:
> >Anyone else watch Dateline last night? Well, here's some new topics to
sink
> >your teeth in.
> >
> >1) If you prostitute your children's lives, do you have the right to
> >complain when you don't like parts of their lives making headlines? By
> >that, I don't mean that you don't have the right to be unhappy about it.
I
> >mean you don't have the right to whine, snivel, complain and shed some
tears
> >over it on national television.
>
> More details would help those of us who didn't watch it. I have no idea
> what the context is here.
>
>
> >2) For those that run daycares or have foster children: How long would
it
> >be before CPS/CWS appeared on your doorstep (remember these are mainly 3
and
> >4 year old) if someone called in and said or they saw as a sound bite on
the
> >nightly news that a) you had removed all the handles from the windows of
the
> >bedrooms of 8 children, all of which are on the second floor and then
hidden
> >the handles; b) children standing on top of toys that are as tall or
taller
> >than the railing on a second floor balcony; c) children running around
with
> >knives (not butter knives, sharp knives); d) children playing Cirque du
> >Soleil from the chandelier; e) children running around unsupervised
through
> >road construction; f) mom taking a switch away from a small child saying,
> >"that's only for mommy and daddy to use."? And a dozen other things but
I
> >blanked half of them out I was so floored by it all.
> >
> >3) Since they made a few references to homeschooling these children, how
> >soon before we get some backlash from the media over the grinning fool
> >talking about "the Bible says 'spare the rod, spoil the child'" as an
excuse
> >for using a switch on toddlers when asked about discipline.
>
> Who *are* these people? You've definitely got me wanting to know more
> about all this.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I think it's wrong to give social workers the power to take children
that they have now. Accidents can happen and there are vastly
different views of what a parents' role is, as we all know very
well! Legally, we need to respect parenting styles that are
different than our own. Whether or not we believe a parent should
spank a child should be irreleveant legally. We can debate the issue
with the parent on a personal level, but not threaten to send a
social worker to take the child!!! If we do that, pretty soon
they'll be sending social workers to take other children because they
don't have a bed time or don't know how to read when they're 9.
Freedom is a wonderful thing when we actually exercise it.
Sheila
that they have now. Accidents can happen and there are vastly
different views of what a parents' role is, as we all know very
well! Legally, we need to respect parenting styles that are
different than our own. Whether or not we believe a parent should
spank a child should be irreleveant legally. We can debate the issue
with the parent on a personal level, but not threaten to send a
social worker to take the child!!! If we do that, pretty soon
they'll be sending social workers to take other children because they
don't have a bed time or don't know how to read when they're 9.
Freedom is a wonderful thing when we actually exercise it.
Sheila
> I think social workers, if concerned that a certain activity wasdangerous,
> would be likely to excuse the parents as long as they wereforbidding it -
> even if the forbidding wasn't working. Something like, "I told himnot to
> climb up there, he disobeyed me and fell, so his brokenarm/leg/back is not
> my fault."
Tia Leschke
>I think it's wrong to give social workers the power to take childrenSo the BC government was actually right a number of years ago in leaving a
>that they have now.
little 4 year old boy with the mother they knew was abusing him until he died?
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
paddled on the rear end, but cruelly beaten, then they should have
taken him. I was talking about loving parents spanking their
children, not child abuse.
Sheila
>children
> >I think it's wrong to give social workers the power to take
> >that they have now.leaving a
>
> So the BC government was actually right a number of years ago in
> little 4 year old boy with the mother they knew was abusing himuntil he died?
> TiaIf they KNEW, as in had absolute PROOF that he was being abused--not
paddled on the rear end, but cruelly beaten, then they should have
taken him. I was talking about loving parents spanking their
children, not child abuse.
Sheila
[email protected]
. I was talking about loving parents spanking their
children, not child abuse.
Sheila
To many people, they are one and the same.
Elissa
children, not child abuse.
Sheila
To many people, they are one and the same.
Elissa
Kolleen
>> >I think it's wrong to give social workers the power to take childrenYikes! did this thought provoke emotions in me! A quandary if there ever
>> >that they have now.
was one.
Although my first response is to say YES, they should be able to 'rescue'
a child... I had to reconsider the options...
Then at what point would any of my choices as mother be at risk. Is my
son going to be taken away for vaccinations? homeschooling? alternative
healing methods? family bed?
If I am to be allowed MY freedoms, I need to allow other people theirs.
Until Corporal Punishment is outlawed altogether, its not my right to
take someone elses privilege away.
>--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:died?
>>
>> So the BC government was actually right a number of years ago in leaving a
>> little 4 year old boy with the mother they knew was abusing him until he
>> TiaAnd I am forever reminded of the kids that have died because of 'lack of
vaccinations' and of course I'm never lectured about the kids that
actually DIED from them or damaged, or the who caught Polio from the
vaccine.
There has been, and always will be the ones that go overboard. At this
point, we 'shouldn't make the whole class stay after for one person's
judgement'.
We can make the punishment EXTREMELY severe for the ones that are caught
and allow as much support possible for the kids willing to step forward.
>--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Sheila > wrote:The long term effects of spanking isn't loving at all. I hope you take
>
>If they KNEW, as in had absolute PROOF that he was being abused--not
>paddled on the rear end, but cruelly beaten, then they should have
>taken him. I was talking about loving parents spanking their
>children, not child abuse.
the time to read Murray A. Straus, Ph.D.: Demystifying the Defenses of
Corporal Punishment before standing firmly with family old-wives tales
and/or cultural habits.
Changing outlooks midstream does NOT make you a bad parent. Not informing
yourself of all available facts and a good amount of other people's
opinions and experiences CAN thwart the growth of a family and their
decendents.
http://nospank.org/straus9.pdf
Of course, after one is well informed, their choice (within the limits of
the law) should be respected.
regards,
k
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Kolleen <Kolleen@m...> wrote:
reports twice now, I think they abuse their power. BUT . . . the
flipside . . . the same agency that took seriously a report that my
son heard voices and was only eating lettuce, had 21 reports of abuse
on a single father who was subsequently shot in the head by his 13
year old son who felt he had no where to turn when the father pulled
the gun out and said something to the effect that it was one or the
other then passed out.
I think the problem is incompetence within the agency coupled witha
need to "look" productive.
Bridget
> >> >I think it's wrong to give social workers the power to takechildren
> >> >that they have now.ever
>
>
> Yikes! did this thought provoke emotions in me! A quandary if there
> was one.I go back and forth on this issue too. Having faced malicious
>
reports twice now, I think they abuse their power. BUT . . . the
flipside . . . the same agency that took seriously a report that my
son heard voices and was only eating lettuce, had 21 reports of abuse
on a single father who was subsequently shot in the head by his 13
year old son who felt he had no where to turn when the father pulled
the gun out and said something to the effect that it was one or the
other then passed out.
I think the problem is incompetence within the agency coupled witha
need to "look" productive.
Bridget
meghan anderson
<<I was talking about loving parents spanking their
children, not child abuse.
Sheila>>
I personally don't see how anyone can strike another
person 'out of love'. IMO the two just don't mix. The
most extreme example of this (that I've seen) was in a
show I saw a few years ago while visiting my mother.
The father explained that hands were not for hitting
so that's why he used a rod (and he had different
sizes for different ages!). While he was using the rod
he would be saying to the child "This hurts me more
than it hurts you and I'm only doing this because I
love you". These were his exact words. Talk about
sending mixed messages! I'm sorry that I can't
remember the man's name who said them. I can't
remember what the show was or anything else about it,
but these words will be with me forever, they were
just so creepy.
Meghan
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children, not child abuse.
Sheila>>
I personally don't see how anyone can strike another
person 'out of love'. IMO the two just don't mix. The
most extreme example of this (that I've seen) was in a
show I saw a few years ago while visiting my mother.
The father explained that hands were not for hitting
so that's why he used a rod (and he had different
sizes for different ages!). While he was using the rod
he would be saying to the child "This hurts me more
than it hurts you and I'm only doing this because I
love you". These were his exact words. Talk about
sending mixed messages! I'm sorry that I can't
remember the man's name who said them. I can't
remember what the show was or anything else about it,
but these words will be with me forever, they were
just so creepy.
Meghan
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1