Lori

I was thinking about Laura's question below...

I am a member of a lot of online communities, not just
for unschooling/homeschooling, but others as well. I
moderate one of those communities. Prior to someone
joining there is usually a letter sent as to what the
rules of etiquette are within any particular group.
There may have been one here as well, I just don't
remember.

My point is, that I think respect is a big piece of
what that should be. I haven't seen much respect here.
I have left this group twice before for exactly the
same reasons. I don't really care who thinks they are
"right" or "wrong". What I seek is a community that
allows us to voice our ideas in an environment that
offers differing viewpoints, diversity of opinions,
encouragement, and support. For *ALL* of us to feel at
home in such a community, we need to create an
environment that treats each other with respect. I
don't think an unschooling community such as this
would want a new member to think that there is just
*ONE* way to do unschooling. Isn't that exactly what
we are hoping to avoid by unschooling?

I think the threads that suggest that we ignore the
posts that are not respectful, is really just avoiding
the issue. Shouldn't we strive to have a community
that demands such from its members? Would our children
behave this way in such a community exchange? I don't
think so...

Perhaps the moderator can repost the rules of
etiquette here? And, if it still continues, perhaps we
need to discuss some simple and effective methods for
appropriate list communication?

I would like to see this list become a place to
exchange ideas in an environment that nurtures, not
alienates. The best of advice, offered in a manner
that is rude and disapproving, won't be heard. What is
it they say about drawing more bees with honey?


*****************************************************

Laura Wilder wrote: This list is full of people who
ask their ownquestions and find answers that work for
them. We do not believe that everything society says
is true is always healthy for every person. We are
happy to share experiences and ideas without
dismissing them. Our own lack of personal experience
with something doesn't make us claim it doesn't exist.

There are almost 600 people on this list. What do you
all think about this idea?



=====
"I'm looking for other people who realize that the
universe is one big contradiction,
and the only true purpose to life is to smell the
flowers and hug your friends."
-Colene from the book "Chaos Mode", by Piers
Anthony

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
http://personals.yahoo.com

Helen Hegener

This list doesn't have a moderator. No list cop, no listmama, no
all-seeing, all-knowing person who's going to decree this is this or
that is that or ban anybody from the list. We're all grown-ups here,
and we don't need to be baby-sat or policed or moderated or told how
and what to post. This is just a discussion list, pure and simple,
and when I created it I assumed it would become populated by thinking
people who would find interesting things to discuss, would probably
disagree with each other at some point, would just as probably work
out their disagreements, and life - and the list - would go on.

I've been reading all the posts for the last week or two, trying to
stay out of the disagreements and personality clashes, hoping things
would chill out again, but like several others, I'm getting damned
tired of it. I might just quit my own list - wonder if that would be
a first?

I'm not going to play God and unsubscribe anyone from this list, but
it's a major disappointment to me that what was at one time one of
the brightest, savviest, sharpest lists on the Net has fallen to
constant schoolish sniping. And that's all I'm going to say - or do -
on the subject.

Helen, listowner

[email protected]

I honestly don't get it. As far as I can see, this list IS a palce
to exchange ideas. Quite frankly, I don't think it's a good idea to
look to a list for nurturing. People have the choice to let strong
opinions differing drastically from our own either alienate them or
be challenged by them. It should either make us rethink our position
or strengthen our conviction in our already existsing position.

I've been on lists where a moderator "stepped in" and it gets to the
point where if you aren't always talking about how beautiful the
weather is, you're "reprimanded". I tend to leave those types of
lists pretty quickly.

I suggest we just leave the list the way it is and encourage everyone
to develop a thick skin.

Sheila

> Perhaps the moderator can repost the rules of
> etiquette here? And, if it still continues, perhaps we
> need to discuss some simple and effective methods for
> appropriate list communication?
>
> I would like to see this list become a place to
> exchange ideas in an environment that nurtures, not
> alienates. The best of advice, offered in a manner
> that is rude and disapproving, won't be heard. What is
> it they say about drawing more bees with honey?

Lori

Thanks for clearing this up for me Helen. I didn't realize that the
list was unmoderated. And with a different group of personalities
onlist right now, we might be hearing predominantly issues of
interest on unschooling.

I am just disappointed as well, to see many people leave just because
they are feeling attacked by the postings of a few. I was hoping
that my third time to the list, might be the charm. That the former
problems would be worked out.

Can I ask that those of you would like to continue the discussion of
right and wrong, perhaps form a sub-group, to continue that topic? Or
perhaps email each other off-list? Or at the very least, perhaps put
an OT (Off Topic) in the subject line?

I'd really like to find a group that can challenge and support each
other's ideas, *respectfully*.

Lori

Lori

sheran@p...

Sheila wrote:

>frankly, I don't think it's a good idea to
> look to a list for nurturing.

nurture 1: to supply with nourishment 2: Educate 3. to further the
development of 4: Foster

IMO, and the way I intented the statement to be, is that it is
possible to *listen* to drastically different viewpoints
*respectfully*. Challenging points of view? Wonderful! I love to
hear what people have to say about a topic. I sometimes disagree. I
choose to express that in a way that will not undermine your choices
as a parent.

As for thick skins, well its wonderful not to take something
personally. What others say and do is very often a projection of
their own reality, their own dream. So yes, having a thick skin will
prevent needless anxiety. However, its a tough world out there. Do
we really need one more place that we have to have a tough hide??

I am suggesting that we are more aligned than different here, in that
we have chosen an untraditional method of schooling. We live in
communities that quite likely don't have a large support network for
such a method. So a community such as this one is very important.

Those lists you mentioned, where your "reprimanded for not agreeing
how beautiful the weather is, is the extreme and not at all what I
was suggesting. In fact, I was
not suggesting that we become a moderated list. What I was saying,
was that we *can* have diversity in ideas and opinions. And we
*don't* have to sugar coat it. And we *CAN* challenge even those
deepest ingrained thoughts *without* resorting to insults and
bickering.

I am just suggesting we think about ourwords...Write with integrity.
(in this case, meaning sincerity, honesty, uprightness, and truth.)

Elizabeth Hill

sheran@... wrote:

> I honestly don't get it. As far as I can see, this list IS a palce
> to exchange ideas. Quite frankly, I don't think it's a good idea to
> look to a list for nurturing. People have the choice to let strong
> opinions differing drastically from our own either alienate them or
> be challenged by them. It should either make us rethink our position
> or strengthen our conviction in our already existsing position.

Hi, folks --

Thanksgiving is coming. And while I love most of my relatives, there is
always potential for the big "we-think-you-shouldn't-homeschool" fight at
any family gathering. (Or long car trip with my brother.)

I don't take criticism really well -- especially the heavy-handed kind that
starts with "your are ruining this child!!!!"

Anybody got any happy thoughts for rising above this or just slogging
through? I'm going to three and a half family gatherings over the long
weekend, and it's really more than I can sail through serenely.

Thanks!
Betsy

Tia Leschke

At 09:53 PM 11/18/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Thanks for clearing this up for me Helen. I didn't realize that the
>list was unmoderated.

Actually very few homeschooling lists *are* moderated. In fact, I'm on
something like 30 lists of all kinds, and not one of them is moderated.

>And with a different group of personalities
>onlist right now, we might be hearing predominantly issues of
>interest on unschooling.

Has the list membership changed that much lately?


>I am just disappointed as well, to see many people leave just because
>they are feeling attacked by the postings of a few. I was hoping
>that my third time to the list, might be the charm. That the former
>problems would be worked out.

I've seen one person (Allison) leave, saying she felt attacked. I've seen
several people, including myself, say they were considering leaving because
of the animosity.


>Can I ask that those of you would like to continue the discussion of
>right and wrong, perhaps form a sub-group, to continue that topic? Or
>perhaps email each other off-list? Or at the very least, perhaps put
>an OT (Off Topic) in the subject line?

The subject lines are pretty obvious already to those who wish to avoid
these subjects. And no topic is really off topic for unschoolers.


>I'd really like to find a group that can challenge and support each
>other's ideas, *respectfully*.

I don't think I've ever been on an email list that didn't have periodic
flare ups. People often get their knickers in a knot about the silliest
things, taking offense where none was meant. It's really hard to say what
you mean in a way that will be understood by others exactly the way you
meant it. If people misinterpret what someone says, either because it
wasn't clearly written, or because they just didn't read it right, they're
going to get upset. It happens.

Sandra states her position in an abrasive way sometimes. If it really
bothers you, don't read her posts, though you'll miss some very good ideas
in the process. Lynda obviously doesn't like Sandra and makes that
clear...frequently. If you don't like reading about it, skip her
posts. But you'll miss some really good posts by doing so. Bridget still
feels misunderstood and picked on from stuff that happened this
summer. When she forgets about that, she has some good things to say. I'd
say those are the main actors in this soap opera, though there are lots of
bit players, like me, jumping into the fray.

Really, the best way to stop a flame war is to change the subject. How's
the weather where you are? We've just had a bunch of badly-needed rain,
and now we're getting cold and clear. I hadn't thought it would be clear
enough on the Wet Coast of Canada to see the Leonides last night, but they
were quite spectacular (for the little while that I could stay awake to watch).
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Elizabeth Hill <ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
> Anybody got any happy thoughts for rising above this or just
slogging
> through? I'm going to three and a half family gatherings over the
long
> weekend, and it's really more than I can sail through serenely.
>
> Thanks!
> Betsy

Hi Betsy,

Here's my happy thought for the day:
We went to see Harry Potter today. (It was good but that's not my
point!) As we were leaving the theater, the girls and I got ahead of
the boys. We stopped to wait for them just outside the door and I
had one of those sudden shocks that you never quite see coming. My
girls are BOTH adults. Rachel is 16 and Jenni is 14. I've known
they are mature for their ages (relative to others I've met) but I
didn't realize until just that moment that they are adults no matter
what society says.

They have both chosen their own clothes for years and usually look
like refugees from a poorly funded Salvation Army. I don;t
care 'cause I usually do too. Today, in the same clothes they've
always worn, they suddenly look like they are two unique and
interesting individuals who like to dress their personalities. They
both were standing straight and tall and interacting with the world
around them. I don't know how many teens you all see regularly but
if they are anything like the high schoolers around here you will
recognize that as a great thing. No pouting at the wait. No whining
that they wanted anything. Just a bit of conversation about the
movie and what was left out.

Our good days far outnumber the bad ones. I love spending time with
them and they are just really cool people. Probably the most
interesting people I know. They know things. I don't know how or
when they learned them but they know them. Whenever someone asks me
if I think unschooling (or homeschooling works) I tell them to look
at my eldest and they can tell me!

Bridget

Tia Leschke

>
>
>Thanksgiving is coming. And while I love most of my relatives, there is
>always potential for the big "we-think-you-shouldn't-homeschool" fight at
>any family gathering. (Or long car trip with my brother.)

"You raised (or are raising, or will raise) your children the best way you
knew how, with the information you had available to you. I have different
information available to me which makes me choose a different way. (for
your parents) How can you possibly think that a child of yours would raise
his or her children any way but the way they thought was the very best?"

caution: untested - made up on the spot
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Tia Leschke

>
>They have both chosen their own clothes for years and usually look
>like refugees from a poorly funded Salvation Army. I don;t
>care 'cause I usually do too. Today, in the same clothes they've
>always worn, they suddenly look like they are two unique and
>interesting individuals who like to dress their personalities. They
>both were standing straight and tall and interacting with the world
>around them. I don't know how many teens you all see regularly but
>if they are anything like the high schoolers around here you will
>recognize that as a great thing. No pouting at the wait. No whining
>that they wanted anything. Just a bit of conversation about the
>movie and what was left out.

Sound like nice kids. I've thoroughly enjoyed getting to know my daughter
better when she became a mother. My step-daughter vaccilates between
refugee and dressing her personaility, with the percentage way over on the
personality side by now.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Lynda

Believe it or not, there are unschooling lists out there that are moderated
to the extreme!

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Lori <livelovenlearn@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 2:29 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: A proposition...to the moderator and
all...


> sheran@p...
>
> Sheila wrote:
>
> >frankly, I don't think it's a good idea to
> > look to a list for nurturing.
>
> nurture 1: to supply with nourishment 2: Educate 3. to further the
> development of 4: Foster
>
> IMO, and the way I intented the statement to be, is that it is
> possible to *listen* to drastically different viewpoints
> *respectfully*. Challenging points of view? Wonderful! I love to
> hear what people have to say about a topic. I sometimes disagree. I
> choose to express that in a way that will not undermine your choices
> as a parent.
>
> As for thick skins, well its wonderful not to take something
> personally. What others say and do is very often a projection of
> their own reality, their own dream. So yes, having a thick skin will
> prevent needless anxiety. However, its a tough world out there. Do
> we really need one more place that we have to have a tough hide??
>
> I am suggesting that we are more aligned than different here, in that
> we have chosen an untraditional method of schooling. We live in
> communities that quite likely don't have a large support network for
> such a method. So a community such as this one is very important.
>
> Those lists you mentioned, where your "reprimanded for not agreeing
> how beautiful the weather is, is the extreme and not at all what I
> was suggesting. In fact, I was
> not suggesting that we become a moderated list. What I was saying,
> was that we *can* have diversity in ideas and opinions. And we
> *don't* have to sugar coat it. And we *CAN* challenge even those
> deepest ingrained thoughts *without* resorting to insults and
> bickering.
>
> I am just suggesting we think about ourwords...Write with integrity.
> (in this case, meaning sincerity, honesty, uprightness, and truth.)
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Lynda

My cousin put together a little booklet which included a suggested reading
lists, a list of famous homeschoolers, quotes and newspaper clippings that
have been positive about homeschooling, a list of quotes from various
kids/families who have left public school and why, and she did a section on
the whole college question.

She was very sweet when she gave them out, saying "I have lots of experience
with public schools, so I understand your arguments. But since you don't
know anything about homeschooling, I've put together some information for
you. We can discuss this later after you have a chance to read this so that
we will both be able to discuss both sides of the issue with some knowledge
of each side." Then walked away while they stood there with their mouths
hanging open.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Hill <ecsamhill@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: A proposition...to the moderator and
all...


>
>
> sheran@... wrote:
>
> > I honestly don't get it. As far as I can see, this list IS a palce
> > to exchange ideas. Quite frankly, I don't think it's a good idea to
> > look to a list for nurturing. People have the choice to let strong
> > opinions differing drastically from our own either alienate them or
> > be challenged by them. It should either make us rethink our position
> > or strengthen our conviction in our already existsing position.
>
> Hi, folks --
>
> Thanksgiving is coming. And while I love most of my relatives, there is
> always potential for the big "we-think-you-shouldn't-homeschool" fight at
> any family gathering. (Or long car trip with my brother.)
>
> I don't take criticism really well -- especially the heavy-handed kind
that
> starts with "your are ruining this child!!!!"
>
> Anybody got any happy thoughts for rising above this or just slogging
> through? I'm going to three and a half family gatherings over the long
> weekend, and it's really more than I can sail through serenely.
>
> Thanks!
> Betsy
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/01 4:11:42 PM Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:


> I'm going to three and a half family gatherings over the long
> weekend, and it's really more than I can sail through serenely.
>

Honestly, I would enlist an ally at each site who is to head the conversation
off and away, and if it does go that direction (which it might not), have
them prepared to take offender-person off and deliver the ultimatum that it
has to stop.

If it comes from you, it might seem just plain defensive, but if you have a
brother in law or cousin or someone who can deliver the "back off"
dispassionately, you could last longer.

Or if there's time, you might e-mail each hostess or suspect (or send a note)
and say flat out that if they plan to criticize your parenting you'd rather
go to Thanskgiving with friends. You could say you'd like to spend the day
being thankful intead of resentful, and so you need their assurance that it's
a safe place for you to come.

How can you digest a big meal like that if you're all tied up waiting for the
axe to drop?

I feel really sorry for those families in which the other relatives haven't
yet seen how cool the homeschooled kids are. I know there are problems; I
had some with my brother-in-law last time he was in town (although it was me
prodding him about being too controlling and inflexible with his poor
in-school teen this time). Things are never just right.

Good luck, however it goes!

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

Bridget wrote:

> Today, in the same clothes they've
> always worn, they suddenly look like they are two unique and
> interesting individuals who like to dress their personalities. They
> both were standing straight and tall and interacting with the world
> around them. I don't know how many teens you all see regularly but
> if they are anything like the high schoolers around here you will
> recognize that as a great thing. No pouting at the wait. No whining
> that they wanted anything. Just a bit of conversation about the
> movie and what was left out.
>
> Our good days far outnumber the bad ones. I love spending time with
> them and they are just really cool people. Probably the most
> interesting people I know. They know things. I don't know how or
> when they learned them but they know them. Whenever someone asks me
> if I think unschooling (or homeschooling works) I tell them to look
> at my eldest and they can tell me!

Thanks, Bridget, for the inspiring preview. I totally agree with you that
the unschooled and homeschooled kids that I know, or see at group
gatherings, have a completely different vibe than kids in school. (So, I
can really visualize your kids as cool and wise.) Park days have such a
different feel compared to say, recess on the playground with asphalt and
screeching and whistles. It's just so hard sometimes to put this into words
that will persuade anyone who hasn't seen and felt it. (If I was going to
put one word labels on things, my park day word would be "delight" and my
school playground word would be "tension".)

My #1 reason for homeschooling is so that my son will have a happier
childhood. When he's really engaged in what he's doing, he just radiates
satisfaction. I'm just not sure that everyone around me ('cept you guys)
values this radiance. Heck, I think there are people in my family, and in
the community, that don't even have the eyes to see it.

It's easy to guide my life with this kind of intuition, but hard to explain
it (and PROVE it) in the heat of an argument. (Imagine "Hey, sis, I know
what I'm doing because I'm guided by my son's radiance and positive
vibrations.")

Hope what I'm saying makes sense to those of you who understand the life
we're living.

Betsy

Elizabeth Hill

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> Honestly, I would enlist an ally at each site who is to head the conversation
> off and away, and if it does go that direction (which it might not), have
> them prepared to take offender-person off and deliver the ultimatum that it
> has to stop.

This is a good idea. My husband is normally a reliable ally, BUT, I suspect on
Thursday he will be sucked into the pit of Nintendo <g> with the teenaged
nephews and not be seen for hours. (And this is his family, mind you.) (The
Nintendo room is pretty small, so I don't think I can spend the whole day hiding
there, but it's tempting.)

> ... if they plan to criticize your parenting you'd rather
> go to Thanskgiving with friends. You could say you'd like to spend the day
> being thankful intead of resentful, and so you need their assurance that it's
> a safe place for you to come.

Also workable. I've dodged some family events in the past. (A great way to get
a free day for myself, I just send the dh and kid without stopping for guilt.)
I usually don't skip the major events, but I could.

Betsy

meghan anderson

I agree wholeheartedly!

Meghan

<<I've been reading all the posts for the last week or
two, trying to
stay out of the disagreements and personality clashes,
hoping things
would chill out again, but like several others, I'm
getting damned
tired of it. I might just quit my own list - wonder if
that would be
a first?

I'm not going to play God and unsubscribe anyone from
this list, but
it's a major disappointment to me that what was at one
time one of
the brightest, savviest, sharpest lists on the Net has
fallen to
constant schoolish sniping. And that's all I'm going
to say - or do -
on the subject.

Helen, listowner>>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
http://personals.yahoo.com

[email protected]

Cool idea!! any chance that it is saved on her computer for anyone like me
who has no time to type?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]