Bridget E Coffman

My mom was one of seven. They had a four bedroom house. Here was the
breakdown:
1. Mom and dad's room
2. Oldest son's room
3. Two youngest boys room
4. the four girls adn Aunt Gert
Sound fair? So why the heck did the oldest son get his own room when
there were FIVE people in one room? Because Aunt Gert insisted on it. I
never understood that!

Bridget - whose kids would never would have put up with that!

>
> I had a friend who thought it was child abuse to make my kids share
> a room. In her words, "If you can't afford a room for each kid, then
you
> can't afford the kids!" Sheesh.
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
goes on.
- Robert Frost

Allison Crilly

My father was 4th of 9. He grew up in Belfast in a tiny row house with 3 bedrooms, all of them about 8' by 10'. The boys had one room (and bed,) the girls shared another room and bed, and the two youngest at the time slept in their parents room, the baby in bed (to nurse) and the toddler in a dresser drawer (the drawer was on the floor, though, not in the dresser! LOL) I spent about year or so of my life in a drawer, my parents moved to Canada just before I was born, and didn't bring any baby furniture. Since I was the 4th and last, they didn't want to buy a crib, so I slept in the drawer until I was big enough to move into my sister's bed.

My sister and I shared a room, but my brothers each had their own, specifically because they were boys. Neither my sister nor I have gotten over this injustice, LOL.

I'm assuming my son will be interested in his own room when he gets interested in bringing someone there. Until then, I have a permanent roommate.

Allison
----- Original Message -----
From: Bridget E Coffman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Bedrooms


My mom was one of seven. They had a four bedroom house. Here was the
breakdown:
1. Mom and dad's room
2. Oldest son's room
3. Two youngest boys room
4. the four girls adn Aunt Gert
Sound fair? So why the heck did the oldest son get his own room when
there were FIVE people in one room? Because Aunt Gert insisted on it. I
never understood that!

Bridget - whose kids would never would have put up with that!

>
> I had a friend who thought it was child abuse to make my kids share
> a room. In her words, "If you can't afford a room for each kid, then
you
> can't afford the kids!" Sheesh.
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
goes on.
- Robert Frost

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bridget E Coffman

I have three kids and when we had two rooms for them, they chose who was
where. They moved around occassionally. I used to get lots of comments
from well meaning strangers that I should put the girls in a room
together and my son by himself. Problem was my oldest really needed her
own space some of the time. I just let them work it out and they did.
However, I must admit it is great to be in a bigger house where everyone
has space.

We all have space intensive hobbies and keeping Rachel's music and
Jenni's books and puzzles and Wyndham's trains sorted out is great. (Not
that they don't share, just that they can find it all now!) Of course
then there are Ron's radios and my craft stuff (which gets 'borrowed'
more than anything else in the house! All in all, we have managed to
fill this four 1/2 bedroom house with full walk-out basement in no time
flat! We moved from a house half this size and when we had about half
the stuff moved one of our friends can over and said, "Wow, you must be
about done." He was astounded when we told him how much more there was
to move. I personally think it doubled in size while being transported.

Sorry to ramble a bit!

Bridget


> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:50:54 -0600
> From: "Allison Crilly" <AllisonC@...>
> Subject: Re: Bedrooms
>
> My father was 4th of 9. He grew up in Belfast in a tiny row house
> with 3 bedrooms, all of them about 8' by 10'. The boys had one room
> (and bed,) the girls shared another room and bed, and the two
> youngest at the time slept in their parents room, the baby in bed
> (to nurse) and the toddler in a dresser drawer (the drawer was on
> the floor, though, not in the dresser! LOL) I spent about year or
> so of my life in a drawer, my parents moved to Canada just before I
> was born, and didn't bring any baby furniture. Since I was the 4th
> and last, they didn't want to buy a crib, so I slept in the drawer
> until I was big enough to move into my sister's bed.
>
> My sister and I shared a room, but my brothers each had their own,
> specifically because they were boys. Neither my sister nor I have
> gotten over this injustice, LOL.
>
> I'm assuming my son will be interested in his own room when he gets
> interested in bringing someone there. Until then, I have a
> permanent roommate.
>
> Allison

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
goes on.
- Robert Frost

Sharon Rudd

I personally think it doubled in size
> while being transported.

> Bridget

Stuff DOES have that property. It DOES double in size
while being transported. Also furniture adds one to
three inches in either width or depth, blue modifies
to green and brown becomes purple.

A feature of new homes is that helpful things like
light swtches seem to move around on their own.
Cupboard conntents switch with the closets and
commmodes only stay exactly where they were if you
turn on the light.

Sharon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1

Julie Bogart

We have not required that the kids maintain their bedrooms to any kind of standard.
Consequently, we have a variety of bedroom conditions. There are two kids who love to
keep things neat, but the rest don't.

My oldest (almost 17) has such a messy room that you can't cross the floor without
walking all over things (guitar, music, CDs, books. clthes, shoes, sports gear...). My
husband wants to clean it for him once (said he isn't out to shame our son or anything,
but just wants to get in there and vacuum, change the sheets, dust, wash the windows,
etc.). He wouldn't put things away, just move them to a big box or two while he cleans up.

My son is resistant to this idea. He doesn't want anyone in his room.

My husband feels that he should be free to clean it up once every six months or so since
the conditon of the house matters to him.

Any suggestions for how to handle this?

Julie B

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/4/04 8:47:59 PM, julie@... writes:

<< My

husband wants to clean it for him once (said he isn't out to shame our son or
anything,

but just wants to get in there and vacuum, change the sheets, dust, wash the
windows,

etc.). He wouldn't put things away, just move them to a big box or two while
he cleans up. >>

I help a kid clean up sometimes, or I'll tell Kirby I want to vacuum, and ask
him to clean off the floor. Sometimes Holly and I do some straightening
while he's gone, in exchane for using his computer so much. And sometimes I
clean his shower or toilet.

-=-My husband feels that he should be free to clean it up once every six
months or so since the conditon of the house matters to him.

-=-Any suggestions for how to handle this?-=-

Plan a project weekend to work on it as a family maybe?
Tell him that clutter's not the problem so much as damage to the carpet or
floor from going too long without cleaning (or whatever).

Sandra

Sandra

Kristi

> My son is resistant to this idea. He doesn't want anyone in his
room.

Julie,

Perhaps it would help to have a discussion, either on paper or in
person, about how to meet everyone's needs. Your husband (and
assumingly your own) needs are that your son's room is reasonably
clean. I think changing the sheets and vaccuming twice a year isn't
an unreasnable standard of cleanliness. :-)

Your son needs his space, and to know that it's HIS.

After discussing it, it is likely (though not absolute) that you can
come up with a solution that meets everyone's needs -- either he
does the basic housekeeping your husband wants to do, or takes time
to box up personal items before someone else does the housekeeping,
or you do it together, etc. But if you approach it as "We have a
problem. Here are my needs, here are yours, how can we compromise?"
looking for a true compromise you likely will find one.

JMO.

Kristi

Tina

Okay, I have an inquiry, and I know I'm opening myself up here, but I
have to ask. Since I've begun my unschooling journey, the one thing
that I have the biggest block with is the whole not requiring
anything out of the children in the home. Maybe part of it is that
I've not come across that in a book, yet. I've been doing a ton of
reading.

We are a family of nine, seven children. Two just graduated, two
graduate next year, two are in charter public school and one his at
home. He's the youngest at 10 years. Due to the dynamics of our
family, we may never reach this level of unschooling, since I'm
technically only unschooling one child. Not to say that my knowledge
and practice of unschooling has no effect on the rest of the family.
I've seen that it does.

What I don't understand is how it's wrong to require things from our
children especially when it's OUR house. One of Pat's biggest
frustrations with our children is their lack of regard for our home.
When we don't require them to care for things, they get ruined. As
he puts it, they will eventually move on, but we still have to live
here. It makes me ill when I think that our upstairs is only 5 years
old, and it looks at least 10 years old. Why is it wrong to expect
your children to care for your things? As their parent I don't
mistreat their possessions. At last check our homes are probably our
biggest financial investment. Who wants that neglected?

Okay, fire away...

:):):)Tina

Sara

Tina, I have to ask...what things of yours do they get to ruin? I'm
guessing furniture?

If that is one of the things then they need to go pick out some
thrift store stuff they like and you may need to put yours away. When
my son redecorated his room and bathroom, he started being pickier
about keeping it nice. He hates for anyone to sleep in his bed now
(but he still doesn't make it!:P)

The only thing I've really asked of them is not to hurt my stuff but
if my stuff is something they must use then I know it's going to get
worn. Discussions of why you like your things a certain way and what
they might like to buy or make for themselves may be in order. Sara
in NC

Jennifer

>What I don't understand is how it's wrong to require things from our
>children especially when it's OUR house.

So where exactly is THEIR house? And *require* sound awfully brute,
disrespectful and controlling. It may just be the typewritten
words, but if they come out at home sounding that way, you might
have the answer to your own question.

When they're old enough to move out, they'll probably understand and
come back and help you paint and recarpet if you ask nicely. If
while they are boarding, they feel like it isn't their house, too,
then maybe they don't give a crap what the carpet and walls look
like or how well the house looks. I mean, it isn't THEIR house
after all. People tend to learn about respecting other peoples
things by learning how to care for their own. (WHY didn't I apply
this to my wallpaper???)

I have seven children, too. All mine are home (the oldest 13, the
rest under 8) and I'm not enough to keep up after everyone's
messes. They are pretty good about cleaning up after themselves.
If not, it doesn't take much more than a nice request. We make a
game out of it, set the timer and everyone picks up for 15 minutes.
Sometimes, we do it a lot during the day, sometimes we only do it
once. Sometimes, I forget about it and the house gets crazy-madman-
messy and I get mad and have to remind myself that if I can leave
the dishes on the counter for two days, surely they will make
bigger messes and forget to clean them up because they are a LOT
younger than I am.

I'm learning as I make mistakes. Go back and read the wallpaper
thread. You'll learn a lot, too! The same advice applies. :)

Jennifer

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/5/04 10:04:35 AM, zoocrew@... writes:

<< Okay, I have an inquiry, and I know I'm opening myself up here, but I

have to ask. >>

Just ask the questions without an antagonism alert. It's less antagonistic!

<< Since I've begun my unschooling journey, the one thing

that I have the biggest block with is the whole not requiring

anything out of the children in the home. >>

"the whole"?
Recommendations are made and stories are told and you don't have to
incorporate any of it whatsoever. Take what you need and leave the rest.

<<Maybe part of it is that I've not come across that in a book, yet. I've
been doing a ton of reading.>>

If it were in a book, you'd believe it more?
Self-publication is going to make that a problematical philosophy to live by.

I've done a ton of reading, and it's not in a book. It's peppered throughout
unschooling.com over the past few years, and some of the good parts are
collected here:

http://sandradodd.com/chores

<< Due to the dynamics of our

family, we may never reach this level of unschooling, since I'm

technically only unschooling one child. >>

Nobody has to change anything in their lives because of what they read here.
Some like to. Some do so against their conscious will. <bwg> If you can't
or don't want to, don't!
It's not a part of unschooling. It's not a prerequisite of unschooling.
It's a part of a larger way of related thinking.

<<What I don't understand is how it's wrong to require things from our

children especially when it's OUR house. >>

Some people like to think it's the kids' house too.

<<One of Pat's biggest

frustrations with our children is their lack of regard for our home. >>

If you consider it your home (and they are visitors, or inferior beings who
are temporarily there) then of course your priorities and principles will be
different, and that's the way priorities go.

<<When we don't require them to care for things, they get ruined. >>

The things, or the kids?

And by "require them to care for things," do you mean require them to polish
wooden tables weekly, or dissuade them from carving their names in them?
There's a great range of "to care for" and another great range of "require."

If it's your house, why don't you care for all the things yourself? Part of
that might be having guidelines about who can use what how. No jumping on the
couch. No Playdoh on the carpet.

<<As he puts it, they will eventually move on, but we still have to live

here. >>

Or you might die and they'll have spent those years taking care of a house
you weren't going to live in after they were gone after all.

That's a facetious answer, but even facetious answers could have photos in
the book next to them. Not all parents outlive the childhoods of their
offspring.

-=-It makes me ill when I think that our upstairs is only 5 years

old, and it looks at least 10 years old. -=-

What does that have to do with unschooling, then, since most of your children
are in school?

-=-Why is it wrong to expect

your children to care for your things? As their parent I don't

mistreat their possessions. -=-

That would be the thing I would recommend. Take good care of their things,
tell them why you are, and theoretically, ideally, they will want to take care
of YOUR things.

I don't know what caused the dynamics in your home to be what they are, but
by your own description, it's not an unschooling matter.

My kids aren't destructive of property.

Holly has a wooden box her dad made her for her medieval clothes (for SCA).
It's about three feet long, and can be used as a seat or a table. She got
nail polish remover on it and it marred the finish. She felt AWFUL. And it was
hers. And her dad can fix it.

-=-At last check our homes are probably our

biggest financial investment. Who wants that neglected?-=-

Our children are our biggest responsibility and "investment."
We have a house so our children have a place to live, and we were happy to
have this particular house (which we bought six years or so ago) because it's a
great house for unschooling.

If a house is bought as an investment, maybe that's a better activity for
childless couples. We had neighbors for a while whose mutual hobby was buying
houses, fixing them up themselves and selling them for more. After just a few
houses, their houses were not "costing them" anything--they got ahead of the
game. But they were doing it for fun, and as a shared activity. They would
decide "this bathroom needs wooden fixtures," and would go to fleamarkets and
garage sales.

Expecting one's children to be partners in a home-improvement or even
investment-maintenance scheme seems unreasonable. And especially if you consider it
YOUR house, not theirs.

Sandra

Tina

<<Nobody has to change anything in their lives because of what they
read here. Some like to. Some do so against their conscious will.
<bwg> If you can't or don't want to, don't! It's not a part of
unschooling. It's not a prerequisite of unschooling. It's a part of
a larger way of related thinking.>>

Sandra

I'm SO glad you said this! I don't feel like I HAVE TO change
anything, but I've been following a lot of the various threads on the
list and somehow came to the conclusion that this was part of
unshcooling. That's why I mentioned not having ever read anything
about it. I thought I missed something somewhere about the
unschooling philosophy. I would NEVER believe something more or less
solely based on the fact that it was published in whatever format
that may be.

Thanks for the clarification...

Tina

queenjane555

--- In [email protected], "Tina" <zoocrew@w...>
wrote:

> What I don't understand is how it's wrong to require things from
>our children especially when it's OUR house.

This is a really big pet peeve of mine...my son's father would always
say to him "you arent going to do that in MY house!!", it felt weird
to me. I mean, i think my son and i share a home, but at his father's
house he is just visiting i guess. Maybe if your kids felt more
invested in the house, that it is THEIR house too, they would want to
not destroy it.

>One of Pat's biggest frustrations with our children is their lack
>of regard for our home.
> When we don't require them to care for things, they get ruined.

I think you need to be more specific. If my son wanted to write on
the walls of HIS room, i would let him, and would simply paint when
he moved out or when he decided it was ok. If he wanted to write all
over the walls in MY room, probably not ok. (This is a hypothetical
since we are renting and sharing a room, and he no longer writes on
walls anyway.) There is a big difference in not requiring certain
chores, and not allowing a child to cut a big hole in the living room
curtains because they needed some material. There is a huge middle
ground there.

Do you have a specific concern that you'd like help with? Maybe a
specific example where we could give you alternatives to "my way or
the highway" type thinking?

I only have the one kid, but i think if i had seven children, i would
resign myself to not having a perfect "new looking" house. How is
that even possible with NINE people living in one home?

Katherine

TreeGoddess

On Jun 5, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Sara wrote:

> When my son redecorated his room and bathroom, he started being
> pickier about keeping it nice. He hates for anyone to sleep in his bed
> now (but he still doesn't make it!:P)

I don't make our bed and I wouldn't expect my kids to make their beds.
I never saw the point in making it except when putting on fresh linens.
Besides, the kids love to bounce around on the bed during the day,
make tents or forts, or just plain take all the covers off to use
elsewhere in the house for various things. Making the bed would be
rather pointless for me. LOL

If your son's bed is truly HIS bed then it shouldn't matter to you if
it's made or not, should it? :)
-Tracy-

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/5/04 7:42:49 PM, treegoddess@... writes:

<< I never saw the point in making it except when putting on fresh linens. >>

The reason to make the bed in New Mexico is to keep the sand out.

Holly makes hers. I make mine. Kirby and Marty don't. Sometimes they're
sleeping in sand. <g>

Sandra

Crystal

He hates for anyone to sleep in his bed now (but he still doesn't
make it!:P)
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Funny story then, not so funny now. Pre-unschooling, when my middle
son was 3 or 4 or 5, he hated to make his bed. I only bought
comforters so it was just a matter of pulling it up and smoothing out
the wrinkles, but he even hated doing that. So he would sleep on top
of the comforter so he wouldn't have to make it. That was a long,
long time ago. My house hasn't seen made beds in years. Who can be
bothered?

Crystal

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/5/2004 11:41:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> The reason to make the bed in New Mexico is to keep the sand out.
Really? How would it get in?

Pamela


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

I don't know why, but it seems hard for people to undestand that this
list is for us to talk and analyze and evaluate and critique what it is
like for us to live an unschooling life. We're unschoolers - we're
talking "about" unschooling lifestyles. We hope that by doing this
we'll help each other delve ever deeper.

We talk about housework, family finances, food issues, materialism, TV
and video games, and movies and sports and on and on - ALL in the
context of living life as unschoolers.

We are not saying you have to have unlimited TV or no bedtimes or
include the kids in making financial decisions or any of those things
in order to unschool. Unschooling means not doing school in the home -
not having lesson plans, teacher-moments, assignments, grades, tests.
It means trusting kids to learn what they need to learn in their own
way and with the help of loving attentive involved supportive parents
who provide an environment conducive to natural learning.

But there are often "repercussions" to living an unschooling life --
there are "side effects" of trusting our children and living in freedom
and when we talk about those here, they are IN the unschooling context.
We're NOT defining unschooling as those things and we're not turning
the list into a general discussion about chores or bedtimes or
whatever.

Is this clear as mud? Although I'm clear in my own head about what we
mean - it seems to be a little hard to get it across clearly.

-pam

On Jun 5, 2004, at 10:02 AM, Tina wrote:

> <<Nobody has to change anything in their lives because of what they
> read here. Some like to. Some do so against their conscious will.
> <bwg> If you can't or don't want to, don't! It's not a part of
> unschooling. It's not a prerequisite of unschooling. It's a part of
> a larger way of related thinking.>>
>
> Sandra
>
> I'm SO glad you said this! I don't feel like I HAVE TO change
> anything, but I've been following a lot of the various threads on the
> list and somehow came to the conclusion that this was part of
> unshcooling. That's why I mentioned not having ever read anything
> about it. I thought I missed something somewhere about the
> unschooling philosophy.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Sara

You're right....and it stays unmade, I figure it airs out better
anyway :) He will make it if people are over or if I ask him and if
he forgets, he shuts the door. It's funny how old hang ups still ping
even though I let them go several years ago. It still drives the DH
bats though...

Sara

<<But there are often "repercussions" to living an unschooling life --
there are "side effects" of trusting our children and living in
freedom and when we talk about those here, they are IN the
unschooling context. We're NOT defining unschooling as those things
and we're not turning the list into a general discussion about chores
or bedtimes or whatever.

Is this clear as mud? Although I'm clear in my own head about what
we mean - it seems to be a little hard to get it across clearly. -
pam>>


Some folks are mixing up control issues with schooling practises I
think. I guess having to parent and advocate a freer learning style
can be hard for many to integrate or instigate in their daily lives.
I think you are very clear and if you repost the above statement
every few days, you'd do us all a favor...

So...how many of us started out letting our children grow and explore
without much restriction and encouraging independence? With the
exception of safety issues and respect for others sanity, I let my
kids do anything they could tackle, physically and mentally.

Sandra mentioned not trying to change adults when it comes to teens
questioning other adults....to coach the teeen to better deal with
those he wishes to discuss things with. Maybe some of the new
unschoolers need to be more open to coaching from this core group
instead of challenging them. Maybe the constant influx of new
unschoolers is increasing....I can see where those that maintain good
lists get tired of saying the same things over and over. I see the
use of links but I wonder if they are being read. People want answers
now, now, now....are they thinking enough? Sara in NC

Fetteroll

on 6/5/04 8:15 AM, Tina at zoocrew@... wrote:

> Since I've begun my unschooling journey, the one thing
> that I have the biggest block with is the whole not requiring
> anything out of the children in the home.

The reason you're having problems understanding is that you're seeing two
choices: make them or be the maid.

What it sounds like you did is that you made them pick up when they were
younger (I assume since you say you don't get the idea) and then left them
to their own devices with the expectation that they'd care for things to
your standards. The first obviously didn't turn them into people who care
for things on their own. And the second isn't being advocated.

Another choice is to accept ownership of the household tasks and then
sincerely ask for help (which means no is an acceptable answer) and
sincerely thank people when they have helped (even if it isn't up to the
standards you would have done it or standards you think they're capable of).

It's just basic human nature that it's more rewarding to help someone who is
working hard at what they're doing and is appreciative of help than someone
who is spreading their work around and angry that no one is helping in the
way she wants the work to be done.

Joyce

TreeGoddess

Yeah, I can see that. Having lived in MI my whole life I've only had
to deal with sand in the bed if we've been camping. Does the sand
there blow around or is it more from coming in with/on people and pets?
-Tracy-

On Jun 5, 2004, at 11:03 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/5/04 7:42:49 PM, treegoddess@... writes:
>
> << I never saw the point in making it except when putting on fresh
> linens. >>
>
> The reason to make the bed in New Mexico is to keep the sand out.
>
> Holly makes hers. I make mine. Kirby and Marty don't. Sometimes
> they're sleeping in sand. <g>

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/5/04 9:45:38 PM, b229d655@... writes:

<< > The reason to make the bed in New Mexico is to keep the sand out.
Really? How would it get in? >>

Air.
Most wind carries dust and sand. It the house is totally closed up, you'll
suffocate. The way most houses are cooled is evaporative coolers, and even
that comes in with some "airborne particulates," because although there are wet
pads, they're sufficiently open that "live air" is coming in. And every person
or dog who comes in from the inside is likely to bring some dust/sand on
shoes and clothes, in hair...

We just get used to it.

Some people live in wetter neighborhoods (farmland by the river). Then they
have mud and (different) stickers and mosquitos. Uphill, we have sand and
no mosquitos. People high enough for big pine forests and ferns on the ground
don't have stickers or mosquitos. They might have bears and mountain lions
they didn't particularly want. But they won't get in the bed. <g>

A homeschooling family moved here lately from southern California and bought
a house. The mom is mystified by the local need for this or that, didn't get
the swamp cooler, has a septic tank, lives where she can irrigate. Very
foreign for her. It's always fun to discuss such things, though, and for the
local kids to see how much they knew without knowing it would be exotic
information for anyone.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/6/04 12:28:34 AM, cheeps4u@... writes:

<< People want answers

now, now, now....are they thinking enough? >>

It's likely that people think unschooling is easier than it is, that it's ten
simple rules to follow: no more messy thinking required.

Yet this list has ten simple rules which are mailed to new members, and the
moderators spend too much time arguing with new members and explaining those
new rules, even though there are two versions of them here:

http://sandradodd.com/lists/info

AND they're available at a link/URL listed at the bottom of every single
e-mail from this group.

I guess the solution is to just keep doing what we're doing, appreciate those
days and weeks when the list is wonderfully smooth and and useful, and endure
the worse days.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/6/2004 11:02:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> It's always fun to discuss such things, though, and for the
> local kids to see how much they knew without knowing it would be exotic
> information for anyone.



AWESOME!!! I learned quite a bit just now, thanks for elaborating. I
thought maybe you'd think I was being silly, asking such a question, but I was
serious. I was thinking high dust and wind type stuff.

Pamela




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

** But there are often "repercussions" to living an unschooling life --
there are "side effects" of trusting our children and living in freedom
and when we talk about those here, they are IN the unschooling context.
We're NOT defining unschooling as those things and we're not turning
the list into a general discussion about chores or bedtimes or
whatever.

Is this clear as mud? Although I'm clear in my own head about what we
mean - it seems to be a little hard to get it across clearly.**


(I'm going to look at just a subset of what you said. Something that I
think is an assumption that new-to-the-list people make that can lead to
confusion. That is this list will not tell you the step-by-step,
optimum way to raise and educate your child. Because top-down
instruction is not what this list is about.)

We discuss all kinds of parenting issues on this list and have some
valuable experience to share. We think we have some information about a
novel form learning, *unschooling*. This information is not commonly
available. We think there is some real MISinformation in our culture
about how people learn, and we want to point out that some of the
reasons for sending kids to school are not valid. **But, the purpose of
this list is not to supercede the thinking process and the awareness of
the parent.** The purpose of this list is to **stimulate** each
parent's thinking and awareness about parenting and learning in her
family life.

The parent is the one living with and interacting with her children.
She's the one who already knows them, and has the potential to increase
her knowledge of them every day. This is valuable expertise, (even
though institutional experts like school and doctors have been known to
underestimate it's importance). If a parent just followed the
suggestions of the list **without thinking about them** and
experimenting with them then an important part of the process of
interacting wiht her childen would be short-circuited. And unschooling
doesn't work that way.

We don't want parents to throw away what they've observed about their
children and what they know about them in their hearts. That's reall
knowledge. We just want them to question what they've heard about
children in some of our culture's dubious folk wisdom. "Give them an
inch and they'll take a mile." "Don't pick up a crying baby, you'll
spoil it." "Kids who go to publicly funded preschool don't end up in
publicly funded prisons."

Unschooling absolutely needs to be responsive to the individuality of
the child. That's crucial. We don't want to be like public school and
exaggerate the similarities of all children to the point that we are
trying to pound square pegs into round holes. Unschooling also needs to
be responsive to the circumstances of the family. There's no reason to
find thirty other people and do what they are doing. <g> I know that's
how most of us learned growing up, but public school is over for us
adults. So, be free, and find ways to free your children.

Unschooling isn't a clearly marked path where what happens first is
followed predictably by the next step and the next step like the years
of public school K-12. It doesn't start at 8:00am each weekday and stop
at 3. It doesn't stop in June, July and August. It isn't over when
your child is 18. What you do first isn't pre-determined for you.
**What you do next isn't dictated to you.**

(Now I'm going to say the same thing about 6 different ways. If you
already get it and the repetition is bugging you, then skip some lines.
I'm just trying to find different ways to say what I'm thinking that
will make sense to different people.)

Unschooling isn't laid out like a curriculum. It doesn't limit itself
to 6 or 7 subjects. It doesn't even guarantee coverage of those
specific subjects that high schools think are important.

Unschooling is more like an experiment and less like a recipe. What
your children will do everyday is not predictable and should not be
controlled. (I mean don't treat them like marionettes. I don't mean
let them run into traffic.)

This list exists to help us question the way we used to do things. But
it doesn't prescribe answers.

The answers to question like --"What do I do now?" -- are not all in
*the book*. There is no bible of unschooling. There is no imposed
penalty for violating the unschooling laws. There is no unschooling
Teacher's Manual with a table of contents and answers to tough questions
in the back.

We don't tell you how to unschool. When "typical" days of unschoolers
are discussed is is not with the intention that someone copy them.

I suppose this list does tell you what NOT to do, but you should only do
those things if you believe that they might work / will work / or will
do less harm than what you currently are doing.

This list is more like therapy, where you sit on a couch and discuss
stuff, than like boot camp where a bugle wakes you and someone orders
you around all day and sets your schedule for you. (I wish I could say
there were no latrines to clean. <g>)

I don't know how to make this list directly useful for a parent who
really wants to have a set plan to follow. Because I think none of us
follows a set plan. We follow the wishes of our children and the needs
of our life circumstances. If we had a plan we'd have to throw it out
after the first half hour or get out a big red pen and edit "the plan"
like crazy. And I don't think metaphorical big red pens belong in
unschooling.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/6/04 10:10:06 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< (Now I'm going to say the same thing about 6 different ways. If you

already get it and the repetition is bugging you, then skip some lines.

I'm just trying to find different ways to say what I'm thinking that

will make sense to different people.) >>

I thought it was HUGELY clear and helpful post and I'm saving it!

Sandra

the_clevengers

--- In [email protected], "Tina" <zoocrew@w...>
wrote:
> What I don't understand is how it's wrong to require things from
our
> children especially when it's OUR house.

Here, it's everyone's house. Yes, we (the adults are paying for it)
but we're doing so for our family. We wouldn't own this big of a
house if we didn't have kids, and I'm assuming that with 7 kids you
wouldn't either. We bought our house for our family and it's our
family's house. Just changing to thinking and speaking of it that way
might help a lot.

One of Pat's biggest
> frustrations with our children is their lack of regard for our
home.

Is there something specific? With that many people in a home, wear
and tear is just going to happen. We had a family of four share our
home last month for several weeks and I was amazed at just how much
difference it made going from 4 to 8 people, just the amount of dirt
that gets tracked in, dishes that have to be done, etc. etc. You have
a lot of people living in your house and it will definitely show up
in wear over a family who has just two kids. Heck, even our dog makes
a signifigant difference. If they're doing something specific -
jumping on an antique couch that belonged to your great-grandmother
for instance, maybe find a good substitute. We have our king-sized
bed in the master bedroom just sitting on the ground, no bed frame.
That makes it an excellent jumping platform. Our couch, OTOH, is one
of those hideous futon things (never again) so it has no springs,
only a wood frame. If a kid (ours or someone else's) starts jumping
on it, we just redirect them to the bed. That way we don't have a kid
breaking their leg going through the wood slats of the couch, and we
have a bunch of happy kids bouncing on the bed. Another option would
be to buy a big trampoline or something. When I was growing up, it
was popular to have a "rumpus room" in the basement that was sparsely
furnished with ratty stuff and was basically just a kid hangout.

> When we don't require them to care for things, they get ruined.

Well, obviously some things require good care. For instance, my kids
know not to pick up my violin without utmost care, or bang on the
piano keys hard enough to break them, or mess with the one piece of
antique furniture that's from my grandparents, etc. But most stuff
can be pretty indestructible, and if all the furniture is too fussy
or breakable, it might be time to put it up and buy some cheap
durable stuff for a few more years.

>It makes me ill when I think that our upstairs is only 5 years
> old, and it looks at least 10 years old.

Making you ill is a pretty strong term. IMHO, you can't expect 7 kids
to live somewhere and leave it looking like another family's house
that has two kids - you've got more than 3 times as many feet
crossing the carpet, brushing against walls, scraping cabinets, etc.
Also, it depends on what kinds of kids you have. Some are more rough-
and-tumble than others. Fortunately, when the kids move out, most of
the wear and tear can be fixed with sanding, painting, maybe some new
carpet. That's why apartments always charge you a deposit - they know
that this stuff is just necessary. Maybe you should start putting
aside a repainting and recarpeting deposit of your own. Would knowing
that you have money set aside to redo the stuff that gets worn help
you feel better about it?? Might be a good idea.

> Why is it wrong to expect
> your children to care for your things? As their parent I don't
> mistreat their possessions. At last check our homes are probably
our
> biggest financial investment. Who wants that neglected?

IMHO, since you are going to reap any financial benefit out of it,
keeping up the home is your responsibility. You can do that
grudgingly and angrily about all that gets worn in the home, or you
can keep it up as best you can with all that you've got going, and do
it cheerfully, knowing that you can redecorate when the kids are gone
(personally, I'm planning on a different color of carpet entirely :-)

Flylady (flylady.net) has a bunch of good suggestions on how to
develop efficient routines for housecare, as well as suggestions for
getting rid of what she calls "stinkin' thinkin' " which is
housecleaning martyrdom. Chances are, if you cheerfully go about
keeping things looking nice, and you ask the kids to pitch in when
needed, they will. We "unchored" a couple of years ago and the kids
are almost always willing to help out with something when I ask them
to. It's not always what I'd want immediate help with (they're always
glad to wash one set of windows for instance, when maybe what I need
to do is unload the dishwasher) but they're definitely helpful! I try
to make housecare a game - I need to do this for my own sanity
because I'm not a born housekeeper. So we use some of Flylady's
suggestions, like "5 minute room rescues", "27 Fling Boogies" and
some of her other fun stuff, and it makes it way more enjoyable for
anyone involved. For instance, I hate folding laundry, so when I have
a pile in my bedroom to fold, I just fold 5 things any time I walk
into the bedroom. Sometimes I'll ask the kids to just put away 5
things when they walk in. That way none of us feel like we have to
spend an hour folding or putting away clothes. It only takes 30
seconds to do those five things, but by the end of the day our
laundry mountain is moved! You can take these types of things and
apply them to any housekeeping task and make it a lot more enjoyable
for you, which can end up meaning much more enjoyable for the kids to
be around or pitch in.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/7/2004 9:24:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tri_mom@... writes:
>It makes me ill when I think that our upstairs is only 5 years <<
> old, and it looks at least 10 years old. <<
Think of this...what are you comparing it to? The house you grew up in? The
house of a friend (that only has 2 children)?

Sooooooo much can happen in 5 years. We've only lived in our home for 5
years, and the whole thing looks like it needs repainting. 5 years is a long time
with that many people living in the home (we have 10 people in our house,
plus 2 cats and a dog.) We've had holes in walls, paint pulled off with tape,
HUNDREDS of nail/tack holes, a gazillion scuff marks. Not to mention the inside
of our home is half done. We have huge holes ripped in the linoleum where we
moved a table that didn't have little plastic thingies on the bottom of the
legs. The banister is so rickety on the stairs now, from kids swinging around
it, we'll probably be replacing it soon. We've replaced the guts of our
toilet (mechanical stuff) probably 5 times (a lot of flushing in a family of 10)
and we've went through 2 used washers, 2 used dryers, and recently bit the
bullet and bought an expensive front loading model just so we could do larger loads!

Not trying to minimize your frustration (OK, maybe I am) but don't feel so
bad! It's normal. Throw a few rugs down, go over stuff once in a while with a
bottle of 409, and spend more time with your family and reading good books.

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/7/04 7:25:02 AM, tri_mom@... writes:

<< IMHO, since you are going to reap any financial benefit out of it,

keeping up the home is your responsibility. You can do that

grudgingly and angrily about all that gets worn in the home, or you

can keep it up as best you can with all that you've got going, and do

it cheerfully >>

Damage to the house is easier to repair than damage to the kids, if a parent
can only think of those two options.

We have a hole in the wall where Kirby kicked it, when he was 13 or so. A
friend's mother was dying of cancer, he knew. He was out of town for a few
days, and a couple of weeks after he got back he found out she had died and he had
missed the funeral. They hadn't called him specifically. If he had been at
the gaming shop he would've heard. He really liked that lady. Her name was
Zandra. He liked her kids, and after she died they moved away. He was
rightfully frustrated. The hole can't be fixed easily, because there's a sliding
door behind it. It's a memorial to Zandra, and it reminds the kids not to kick
the walls.

-=- suggestions for

getting rid of what she calls "stinkin' thinkin' " which is

housecleaning martyrdom.-=-

It's an AA term too.

Even if I DID force-march my kids through the house making them mop and dust
and sort and polish, we wouldn't have a house that looks like a showhouse.
It's not that kind of house. We have STUFF. COOL stuff.

And what would happen is I would have a slightly cleaner house o'stuff, and
my kids would be profoundly unhappy. And I bet I'd be unhappy too, because I
would have to decide they were lazy and uncooperative and wasting my time
making me march them around every day.

Sandra