changing the course of the mainstream
[email protected]
<< As the hospitals
and professionals took on "home-like" settings and twisted ideas into
their own, fewer home birth advocates were willing to "fight the
fight". >>
Surely you're not saying it would have been better for home births for
hospitals to stay as stirrup-bound and drug-requiring as they wanted to be in
1959!!
If pitocin were mandatory, there might be more home births, but is that a
reason to scoff at the demands of MANY birth activists for them to STOP IT
with their pitocin and stirrups and 48-hour-limits after water broke, etc?
They're being criticized here for responding to people's complaints!?
And similarly, if school was criticized for same-age segregation and subject
segregation, but now alternative mixed-age, unit- or theme-based classrooms
are being criticized, or alternatives that don't require the children to be
separated from their families all day every day are being snorted at, I
question whether some of those here are really concerned for the good of
others around them.
Not all families can unschool. Not all moms can homebirth safely or
confidently. If the radicals can't help pull the middle ground further away
from the extreme conservative side, why be radicals? To be cool and
different, or to change the course of the mainstream?
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
and professionals took on "home-like" settings and twisted ideas into
their own, fewer home birth advocates were willing to "fight the
fight". >>
Surely you're not saying it would have been better for home births for
hospitals to stay as stirrup-bound and drug-requiring as they wanted to be in
1959!!
If pitocin were mandatory, there might be more home births, but is that a
reason to scoff at the demands of MANY birth activists for them to STOP IT
with their pitocin and stirrups and 48-hour-limits after water broke, etc?
They're being criticized here for responding to people's complaints!?
And similarly, if school was criticized for same-age segregation and subject
segregation, but now alternative mixed-age, unit- or theme-based classrooms
are being criticized, or alternatives that don't require the children to be
separated from their families all day every day are being snorted at, I
question whether some of those here are really concerned for the good of
others around them.
Not all families can unschool. Not all moms can homebirth safely or
confidently. If the radicals can't help pull the middle ground further away
from the extreme conservative side, why be radicals? To be cool and
different, or to change the course of the mainstream?
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Tia Leschke
>Applause!
>Not all families can unschool. Not all moms can homebirth safely or
>confidently. If the radicals can't help pull the middle ground further away
>from the extreme conservative side, why be radicals? To be cool and
>different, or to change the course of the mainstream?
I've done hospital birth and homebirth, school and unschooling. I want the
option to do whichever one suits my family at the time, or anything in between.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
[email protected]
> Surely you're not saying it would have been better for home birthsI think everyone's glad things are better. I'm glad hospitals have
> for
> hospitals to stay as stirrup-bound and drug-requiring as they wanted
> to be in
> 1959!!
changed, whatever there motivation. I'm glad if schools have changed,
even in small ways, if it's made things better for kids. The danger I
think is in believing, being made to believe, that since things are so
much better, everyone must be satisfied. Midwives have faced increasing
regulations, because hospitals don't want it to be easy for people to
make home birth choices. Policy makers decide most of the people are
happy with the various hospital choices, and so why do women need to have
the choice to have their children at home?
I'm glad parents who won't or can't homeschool are finding choices that
work for their kids. I'm just worried about what happens when it is
decided these programs meet everyone's needs, and other options are taken
away. Am I the only one who thinks this can really happen? Every year
the school officials are trying to sneak more forms and requirements into
homeschooling. I'm usually not a pessimistic person, but as I watch the
homeschoolers leave for ps programs, I wonder how many will be left to
stand in support of homeschooling freedoms when they are challenged
further.
No one's snorting at anyone. I don't see this group as just concerned
for themselves regarding anything. I want things to be good for your
kids as much as I want them to be good for mine. After all, our kids
will share this world. Because some of us have worries doesn't mean we
aren't concerned for the good of others around us. It simply means we
have worries. These are nice people here.
And I'll stop whining now.
Deb L, who is not a snorter.
[email protected]
<< Every year
the school officials are trying to sneak more forms and requirements into
homeschooling. >>
Not everywhere.
But eventually there WILL probably be more "requirements" of homeschoolers.
That is the way of the bureaucratic world.
I think the best way for us to stay a step ahead of the inevitable
regulations is to document some of what unschoolers are doing--even if in the
way of journals and testimonials--and by having grown unschoolers who will be
able to say, "Hey--it's NOT necessary to read by seven and memorize times
tables by eight."
We can't dissolve the existence of bureaucracy. Not and be able to sleep at
night without an armed guard in each house/compound/city state. Not and be
able to send a letter to a relative in another town.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
the school officials are trying to sneak more forms and requirements into
homeschooling. >>
Not everywhere.
But eventually there WILL probably be more "requirements" of homeschoolers.
That is the way of the bureaucratic world.
I think the best way for us to stay a step ahead of the inevitable
regulations is to document some of what unschoolers are doing--even if in the
way of journals and testimonials--and by having grown unschoolers who will be
able to say, "Hey--it's NOT necessary to read by seven and memorize times
tables by eight."
We can't dissolve the existence of bureaucracy. Not and be able to sleep at
night without an armed guard in each house/compound/city state. Not and be
able to send a letter to a relative in another town.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
here too!!
I'm certainly not saying that the changes weren't welcome. And I
agree, that home birth and home education are not for everyone..
simply a choice on the plate. But I don't think hospitals changed
because of women who enjoyed their birthing experiences. I think the
home birth "radicals" <g> and the natural birth advocates threatened
the financial end to where changes were made to bring folks happily
back to the institution. As the sides draw closer together, less
passion is inflamed, less 'fighting spirit', if you will. I wonder
about the women who would have chosen home birth, and fully realized
the female power and beauty in birth had the institutional route been
uglier and more offensive to their sensibilities. But with its "not
so bad" ease of doing what everyone does, and nothing offensive to
raise one's ire, the advocate list shrinks and contracts. I'm not
saying that is a bad thing. Except perhaps for those on the fence.
I think you can educate people about their choices all you want but
very few will really take the road less traveled unless the opposing
choice is just plain offensive. I don't think I really understood how
offensive I felt schools (and schooling) were until long after I had
been in the home ed community. Most folks just go with the flow,
choose the least troublesome route. Why struggle for money when the
schools can give me some; why worry about an outline or a curriculum
when the state can provide one; why go to the trouble of sifting
through books and library shelves when someone else can tell me what
to do. In part, for me, because the struggle is part of the living
and the learning. But it is also about social politics and changing
the root, not the symptom.
For analysis purposes only <not really wanting to start an animal
rights discussion>:
Zoos are certainly a far cry from what animal activists fought when
animals were obviously abused. During the 50's and 60's, many common
everyday Janes and Joes felt sorry for animals in zoos and felt
something should be done. Today, most people are not offended by
zoos, in fact, most feel that they serve a valuable place in our
world. And the elephant in the zoo is fed well, cared for with the
best medicine, and can expect a life longer than his wild
conterparts... but is he free?
I'm really not sure of all the answers here. I'm still working on
this in my own head as well as thinking out loud here. I know there's
something that doesn't feel right about the pull towards less freedom
and I know there are fewer voices as the choices become less
offensive. Beyond that, I'm still listening and learning, not carving
my place in stone.
in peace,
Chris O'Connor
>Heavens no! You make some excellent points, Sandra! Good to see you
> << As the hospitals and professionals took on "home-like"
> settings and twisted ideas into their own, fewer home birth
> advocates were willing to "fight the fight". >>
>
> Surely you're not saying it would have been better for home births
> for hospitals to stay as stirrup-bound and drug-requiring as they
> wanted to be in 1959!!
here too!!
I'm certainly not saying that the changes weren't welcome. And I
agree, that home birth and home education are not for everyone..
simply a choice on the plate. But I don't think hospitals changed
because of women who enjoyed their birthing experiences. I think the
home birth "radicals" <g> and the natural birth advocates threatened
the financial end to where changes were made to bring folks happily
back to the institution. As the sides draw closer together, less
passion is inflamed, less 'fighting spirit', if you will. I wonder
about the women who would have chosen home birth, and fully realized
the female power and beauty in birth had the institutional route been
uglier and more offensive to their sensibilities. But with its "not
so bad" ease of doing what everyone does, and nothing offensive to
raise one's ire, the advocate list shrinks and contracts. I'm not
saying that is a bad thing. Except perhaps for those on the fence.
I think you can educate people about their choices all you want but
very few will really take the road less traveled unless the opposing
choice is just plain offensive. I don't think I really understood how
offensive I felt schools (and schooling) were until long after I had
been in the home ed community. Most folks just go with the flow,
choose the least troublesome route. Why struggle for money when the
schools can give me some; why worry about an outline or a curriculum
when the state can provide one; why go to the trouble of sifting
through books and library shelves when someone else can tell me what
to do. In part, for me, because the struggle is part of the living
and the learning. But it is also about social politics and changing
the root, not the symptom.
For analysis purposes only <not really wanting to start an animal
rights discussion>:
Zoos are certainly a far cry from what animal activists fought when
animals were obviously abused. During the 50's and 60's, many common
everyday Janes and Joes felt sorry for animals in zoos and felt
something should be done. Today, most people are not offended by
zoos, in fact, most feel that they serve a valuable place in our
world. And the elephant in the zoo is fed well, cared for with the
best medicine, and can expect a life longer than his wild
conterparts... but is he free?
I'm really not sure of all the answers here. I'm still working on
this in my own head as well as thinking out loud here. I know there's
something that doesn't feel right about the pull towards less freedom
and I know there are fewer voices as the choices become less
offensive. Beyond that, I'm still listening and learning, not carving
my place in stone.
in peace,
Chris O'Connor
[email protected]
Hi All! Haven't posted in awhile, been pulled in too many directions. It's
nice to really have some time to read and share here again.
In a message dated 11/1/01 11:03:51 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
chrisoco@... writes:
as well. IMO the missing link in ps or structured hs and in hospital births
is very similar. Not believing in the natural processes of life/of being a
human. A lot of the peripherals of hospital births have improved
drastically, but at the core, they still manage the birth process...and
usually do more harmful interventions that helpful. And I think the
peripherals of ps/hs have improved, I've not been in this long enough to even
speculate why, but at the root, the natural desire of children to learn is
given little to no credit. It is managed, and again through
unwanted/unsolicited/sometimes violently rebelled against intervention, often
damaged.
barely warrant a strong reaction, or at least so it seems. But all too often
today, I walk away from things feeling not quite right. It looks better, it's
meeting higher standards, but underneath the political correctness and pr,
there's still something not right.
Brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nice to really have some time to read and share here again.
In a message dated 11/1/01 11:03:51 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
chrisoco@... writes:
> . In part, for me, because the struggle is part of the livingI agree totally with this! I have read most of the thread and that's my take
> and the learning. But it is also about social politics and changing
> the root, not the symptom.
>
as well. IMO the missing link in ps or structured hs and in hospital births
is very similar. Not believing in the natural processes of life/of being a
human. A lot of the peripherals of hospital births have improved
drastically, but at the core, they still manage the birth process...and
usually do more harmful interventions that helpful. And I think the
peripherals of ps/hs have improved, I've not been in this long enough to even
speculate why, but at the root, the natural desire of children to learn is
given little to no credit. It is managed, and again through
unwanted/unsolicited/sometimes violently rebelled against intervention, often
damaged.
>I really liked that analogy. So many things are 'softer'. So much so, they
> Zoos are certainly a far cry from what animal activists fought when
> animals were obviously abused...Today, most people are not offended by
> zoos, in fact, most feel that they serve a valuable place in our
> world. And the elephant in the zoo is fed well, cared for with the
> best medicine, and can expect a life longer than his wild
> conterparts... but is he free?
>
>
barely warrant a strong reaction, or at least so it seems. But all too often
today, I walk away from things feeling not quite right. It looks better, it's
meeting higher standards, but underneath the political correctness and pr,
there's still something not right.
Brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
brendaclaspell@... wrote:
can give you a better outcome.
The latest baby born in my local HS support group was a homebirth. And the next
one on the way is also planned for birth-at-home. Around here, homebirth still
seems to be growing.
I was afraid, myself, about birth and had a hospital birth for my only child.
(Terrible!!!)
So maybe I understand a bit why people are afraid to homeschool without an
institution.
Betsy
>Yes! I think there is also the feeling that the "expert" (doctor or teacher)
>
> I agree totally with this! I have read most of the thread and that's my take
> as well. IMO the missing link in ps or structured hs and in hospital births
> is very similar. Not believing in the natural processes of life/of being a
> human.
can give you a better outcome.
The latest baby born in my local HS support group was a homebirth. And the next
one on the way is also planned for birth-at-home. Around here, homebirth still
seems to be growing.
I was afraid, myself, about birth and had a hospital birth for my only child.
(Terrible!!!)
So maybe I understand a bit why people are afraid to homeschool without an
institution.
Betsy
Tia Leschke
>Here too. My daughter, who was born at home, has had her 2 at home. Many
>Yes! I think there is also the feeling that the "expert" (doctor or teacher)
>can give you a better outcome.
>
>The latest baby born in my local HS support group was a homebirth. And
>the next
>one on the way is also planned for birth-at-home. Around here, homebirth
>still
>seems to be growing.
of her friends have also. Of course it helps that we can have a midwife
paid for by our medical plan.
>I was afraid, myself, about birth and had a hospital birth for my only child.My first was going to be a homebirth but came 2 months early. My second
>(Terrible!!!)
was born at home, but without anyone skilled in attendance. My third was
born in hospital because we lived too far away. My fourth was also a
hospital baby because his dad would have been too fearful. There were some
complications at his daughter's birth (mostly doctor caused) and he
wouldn't have been able to get over his fears. That birth was when I was
really thankful for all the changes that have been pushed through by
birthing advocates. I don't care why they happened. I'm just glad they
did. We had a great birth and then went right home. <g>
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
[email protected]
(The following is long and only marginally about homeschooling, in a
philosophical way.)
<< That birth was when I was really thankful for all the changes that have
been pushed through by
birthing advocates. >>
When I was pregnant with Marty, I totally planned a home VBAC with backup
plans, but I kept going to appointments with my HMO, letting them assume I
was coming in, stretching their limits, educating them as to why I was
refusing this or that, and what the legalities were, and making sure they had
refusal forms, giving them current research to read, and generally being a
pain. When insurance-change time came where my husband works, I dropped that
HMO in favor of the university hospital, which is the neo-natal-problem
headquarters for the whole state. I figured if there were problems, I'd be
better off at UNMH than Lovelace.
I had had a bad session with the head of pediatrics one day, and so I
dramatically said I didn't think I could deal with them, and it was MY birth,
not theirs (etc., again, knowing I wasn't going there anyway--I was just
there as part of my dedication to helping other moms not be totally
buffaloed).
Before the insurance switch had gone through, I got a call from one of the
administrator nurses at the HMO asking me whether I was dissatisfied. I said
I was, and I wouldn't be coming back. She pressed for me to tell her which
doctor I was going to. I was seeing the same midwife I'd been seeing the
whole pregnancy, but I didn't tell her that. I said I was taken care of and
they didn't need to worry.
I don't know if they were afraid I would sue or what, but she said they would
consider paying the other doctor. I asked skeptically why they would
consider doing that, since they had plenty of doctors and that wasn 't how
the plan worked. She was soothing, and I think she was willing to say
anything to find out where I was going and what I was up to.
I had seen the midwives at the university hospital already and told them my
plan, that I would just come in in case of emergency, and I let them check me
out (at about 7 months) so I'd have a record on file there, to save some time
in case.
They said that to qualify for a VBAC there, I would have to have been in
their VBAC program since three or four months (I forget what now), and so if
I came in it would be a cesarean. I said fine, because if it doesn't need a
cesarean, I'm not coming in.
At that point I had gathered more information for the use of other moms in
town who were coming to the Ceasarean Prevention Movement. (I'm going to
give up now on spelling that consistently, since the rest of the world has
given up, and that's not what this story's about.)
Time came, labored for 35 hours or so, midwife, and EMT homebirthing mom,
and other friends took shifts. It wasn't happening. I went in. Told them
the details, gave them the chart of the past two days. We had tried to break
the water and it didn't break, but the labor was at the point where the
contractions were involuntary, there was just no progress for many hours.
They said "OH! We'll just break that water and the baby will slide right on
out."
I told them their policies prevented VBAC for me. (Mostly I knew of a
then-24 hour policy on how long to labor after the water breaks and I didn't
want to labor for another 24 hours; Kirby had been a cesarean after I was at
10cm, and it was happening again.)
They said they could waive that policy, no problem.
So... Three more hours of labor (stirrup table, me saying "cut me") and the
story gets really boring.
BUT...
My sister heard I'd gone in and had the baby. She called from our home town,
but she called my HMO, Lovelace. This is 7:00 a.m. when Marty was 4 hours
old. She asked if I was there. They said "She's at UNMH."
I had carefully told NOBODY at Lovelace, but they found out anyway. I've
always thought that fascinating. <g>
So it's the sad story of someone who never even had a homebirth OR a vaginal
birth, still managing to help other moms have them. And there are
marginal-to-homeschooling situations in which the questions and insistence
and complaints of those who are not purely natural unschoolers which will
still change the schools for the better.
I don't think schools should be dismantled. I think they should adapt and be
more open. I believe unschoolers will eventually make much more difference
in the practices and beliefs of educators than all the structured
homeschoolers put together. Their structure-results, if good, will only
serve to make schools want more money for lower student-teacher ratios
without changing their methods.
We can't change it all at once, but I'd rather have a small, real effect
which made someone else's life better than to stand and rant and have no
effect except to have the establishment point at us and say "See? Nuts.
Ignore them."
It's not glorious or photographable to be a part of social erosion. I'm not
usually a very patient person, and sanding wood or polishing metal gets old
fast for me, but with social engineering I have more patience.
Sandra
philosophical way.)
<< That birth was when I was really thankful for all the changes that have
been pushed through by
birthing advocates. >>
When I was pregnant with Marty, I totally planned a home VBAC with backup
plans, but I kept going to appointments with my HMO, letting them assume I
was coming in, stretching their limits, educating them as to why I was
refusing this or that, and what the legalities were, and making sure they had
refusal forms, giving them current research to read, and generally being a
pain. When insurance-change time came where my husband works, I dropped that
HMO in favor of the university hospital, which is the neo-natal-problem
headquarters for the whole state. I figured if there were problems, I'd be
better off at UNMH than Lovelace.
I had had a bad session with the head of pediatrics one day, and so I
dramatically said I didn't think I could deal with them, and it was MY birth,
not theirs (etc., again, knowing I wasn't going there anyway--I was just
there as part of my dedication to helping other moms not be totally
buffaloed).
Before the insurance switch had gone through, I got a call from one of the
administrator nurses at the HMO asking me whether I was dissatisfied. I said
I was, and I wouldn't be coming back. She pressed for me to tell her which
doctor I was going to. I was seeing the same midwife I'd been seeing the
whole pregnancy, but I didn't tell her that. I said I was taken care of and
they didn't need to worry.
I don't know if they were afraid I would sue or what, but she said they would
consider paying the other doctor. I asked skeptically why they would
consider doing that, since they had plenty of doctors and that wasn 't how
the plan worked. She was soothing, and I think she was willing to say
anything to find out where I was going and what I was up to.
I had seen the midwives at the university hospital already and told them my
plan, that I would just come in in case of emergency, and I let them check me
out (at about 7 months) so I'd have a record on file there, to save some time
in case.
They said that to qualify for a VBAC there, I would have to have been in
their VBAC program since three or four months (I forget what now), and so if
I came in it would be a cesarean. I said fine, because if it doesn't need a
cesarean, I'm not coming in.
At that point I had gathered more information for the use of other moms in
town who were coming to the Ceasarean Prevention Movement. (I'm going to
give up now on spelling that consistently, since the rest of the world has
given up, and that's not what this story's about.)
Time came, labored for 35 hours or so, midwife, and EMT homebirthing mom,
and other friends took shifts. It wasn't happening. I went in. Told them
the details, gave them the chart of the past two days. We had tried to break
the water and it didn't break, but the labor was at the point where the
contractions were involuntary, there was just no progress for many hours.
They said "OH! We'll just break that water and the baby will slide right on
out."
I told them their policies prevented VBAC for me. (Mostly I knew of a
then-24 hour policy on how long to labor after the water breaks and I didn't
want to labor for another 24 hours; Kirby had been a cesarean after I was at
10cm, and it was happening again.)
They said they could waive that policy, no problem.
So... Three more hours of labor (stirrup table, me saying "cut me") and the
story gets really boring.
BUT...
My sister heard I'd gone in and had the baby. She called from our home town,
but she called my HMO, Lovelace. This is 7:00 a.m. when Marty was 4 hours
old. She asked if I was there. They said "She's at UNMH."
I had carefully told NOBODY at Lovelace, but they found out anyway. I've
always thought that fascinating. <g>
So it's the sad story of someone who never even had a homebirth OR a vaginal
birth, still managing to help other moms have them. And there are
marginal-to-homeschooling situations in which the questions and insistence
and complaints of those who are not purely natural unschoolers which will
still change the schools for the better.
I don't think schools should be dismantled. I think they should adapt and be
more open. I believe unschoolers will eventually make much more difference
in the practices and beliefs of educators than all the structured
homeschoolers put together. Their structure-results, if good, will only
serve to make schools want more money for lower student-teacher ratios
without changing their methods.
We can't change it all at once, but I'd rather have a small, real effect
which made someone else's life better than to stand and rant and have no
effect except to have the establishment point at us and say "See? Nuts.
Ignore them."
It's not glorious or photographable to be a part of social erosion. I'm not
usually a very patient person, and sanding wood or polishing metal gets old
fast for me, but with social engineering I have more patience.
Sandra