Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> So, for what it's worth, that is our style of learning.
>
DJ,

It sounds like you've found what works for your family and that's
what we all strive for. I try not to get hung up on what defines
pure unschooling. I know what it means for my family and that may be
different from yours, but we're both just doing what works for us.
I like the term natural learners.

I don't require writing and math like you do, but I also don't
consider our unschooling unguided. I think it was Lisa who mentioned
the constant conversations we have with our kids about their goals
and how they get from point A to point B. Ds just picked up an
English book off our bookshelves. Now he has no love for grammar
and composition, but he has watched his sister prepare for and go to
college and we have had many discussions on college entrance and ACTs
because this is something he sees in his future. So, I do feel like
we are guiding him. More than anything though, I see myself as a
facilitator.

Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...

D. J. Brewer

I do not understand what is the big deal about giving our children
guidance in areas where they need nudging. I am well aware that for some
people who call themselves "unschoolers," my way of thinking might be
considered politically incorrect. (BIG WOOOOoooo!)[Image]

So this whole question of how to "unschool" math and writing begs a
whole other question: what precisely is meant by "unschooling?" To me,
it means NOT learning the way public schools try to force rigid learning
upon kids. Unschool = NOT school. And we do NOT school at my house.
We have fun and learn. That is why I have chosen the term Natural
Learners to describe what we do. It doesn't smack of the 60s (unhip
uncool ungroovy unschool). It is a natural term that describes a
natural process. You don't need to get hung up on positions of
authority.
A mom's position can naturally be one of guidance. A kid's position can
naturally be one of being a kid.

My kids do Saxon math -- well, one of them does. My other kid hates
Saxon, but loves math. So he works out of whatever math book he feels
like using. My other kid who uses the Saxon book does it about 3 times
a week. And she does math worksheets that we got off the internet. It
is a cute little program called Math Worksheet Factory Deluxe, and you
can customize problems, how many digits in addends, minuends, factors,
divisors and the like. It does fractions, decimals and percentages, so
I can use it for my 12 year old son also. They LIKE their math sheets
and they ASK for them. But it was initially MY direction that they do
them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with things being adult led
part of the time. Hey, we all take turns!

We play "Math Monopoly" around here. Before you take your turn, you work
one of your math problems. I had a highschooler, a 6th grader and a 5th
grader all playing together, with their various levels of math. The
highschooler used her Harold Jacobs Algebra book for her problems
before turns. The 6th grader did long division with 2 digits in the
divisor and 3 digits in the dividend (did I say that right?) and the 5th
grader did multiplication with decimals. They played for 2 hours
straight. I didn't ask them to. I didn't stop them. They were having
fun.

I have the book Family Math. I have Harold Jacob's books on Algebra and
also on Mathematics: A human Endevour. I have a GREAT book called The
Amazing Book of Shapes. I also have the books How Math Works, Rapid
Math Tricks and a couple of books by that human calculator guy whose
name I can't remember. All the kids use all of these books at some
point when learning about math. The 10 and 12 year old like them as
much as the 14 and 15 year old.

But I definitely fostered in them an initial interest in mathematics.
At times, there were some activities I intentionally restricted until
math was done. (In the early years, from preschool through 9, natural
daily activities incorporate so much math that very little restrictions
need to be made. The kids pretty much generate mathematical concepts on
their own and play with the ideas, working them into games and
strategies. But at some point, it is OK to introduce a more focused
approach. And at THAT moment, I pushed, without any qualms. I
encouraged. I let them know that a certain standard in mathematics is
without question to be acheived. And they rose to the occasion. My
kids are NOT mathphobic at all. They do it with pride. And of their
own initiative, they ask for math worksheets or play one of the many
math computer games we have (I downloaded a bunch of cool freebies off
the internet, I bought Mathblaster and we have some old DOS based games
that run on an ancient 386. These are mainly word problem games.

With writing, we used Charlotte Mason's narrative method for years. We
still use it, but this fall I am absolutely requiring them to come up
with 2 written paragraphs a day. (Which winds up being about 3 times a
week with all the other stuff we do). They write the paragraphs, I
correct them, and the copy over the final draft with corrections. I
figure that is not too much to ask of a 10 and 12 year old. But this
moment was a LONG time coming. We talked about it for 2 years, so there
were NO surprises when I said, "OK, guys. Now it REALLY IS time for 2
paragraphs a day!"

Our time is SO free and SO fluid, and we have SO much fun. I don't have
any problem with pushing the kids in areas where I know they need work.
It is for their own good. Kids are kids. They don't know what is
coming down the pike. I can see further ahead. I've been there. To
me, unschooling is NOT synonymous with "unguided." Guides are useful.
Just ask Lewis and Clark! Any time you are in unfamiliar territory and
you want to get your bearings, it helps to have an experienced person
around. I view my position as mentor and mom(predominantly MOM!). I
support. I uplift. I let go. AND I give guidance and direction, when
needed. That is my job. Their job is to explore, play, laugh,
discover, work, develop, grow, be happy, be sad, be mad, be a KID!!!!!

So, for what it's worth, that is our style of learning.

DJ

Linda Wyatt

> My kids do Saxon math -- well, one of them does. My other kid hates
> Saxon, but loves math. So he works out of whatever math book he feels
> like using.

Do they have the option of not doing math at all?


> But I definitely fostered in them an initial interest in mathematics.

Good.

> At times, there were some activities I intentionally restricted until
> math was done.

But this *really* bothers me. I don't like to see anything set up as "you
can't do that until you do this" because it sets up the required thing to
be something that is either suffered through, or rushed through, done *so
that* they can get to the more desirable activity. It sets it up as the
less desirable activity, and I *hate* when people do that, especially to
math.



> But at some point, it is OK to introduce a more focused
> approach. And at THAT moment, I pushed, without any qualms.

Why push? There is a difference between "introduce" and "push".


> With writing, we used Charlotte Mason's narrative method for years. We
> still use it, but this fall I am absolutely requiring them to come up
> with 2 written paragraphs a day.

And again, why? Why push? Why make it be something that *you* require?


> I figure that is not too much to ask of a 10 and 12 year old. But this
> moment was a LONG time coming. We talked about it for 2 years, so there
> were NO surprises when I said, "OK, guys. Now it REALLY IS time for 2
> paragraphs a day!"

It's not a matter of it being too much to ask- it's the requirement part
that I have trouble with.

I cringe at the very idea of talking for two years about the time coming
when something will be required, like it or not.

I'd far rather just write, just allow them to do the writing they need.
Which, btw, has been more than two paragraphs a day most of the time, no
two years discussing it beforehand and then telling them to do it.
Sometimes they write a lot, sometimes they go for a while without writing
much of anything. But the surest way I can think of to make them self
conscious about it is to require that they write, whether they have
something to say or not. Writing is about communicating, about having
something to say, not about performing for someone else.


> I don't have
> any problem with pushing the kids in areas where I know they need work.
> It is for their own good.

I don't see it as "for their own good", if it isn't what they want to be
doing. I can't help but see it as for *your* needs, not theirs.


> To me, unschooling is NOT synonymous with "unguided."

Same here. But to me, guidance is not synonymous with, vaguely related to,
or even compatible with requiring or pushing.


Linda

--
Linda Wyatt
hilinda@...
http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
Learning everywhere, all the time.
Algebra before breakfast
"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be
mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

Linda Wyatt

> From: "D. J. Brewer" <djbrewer@...>
>
> I knew very well that I was introducing ideas that some people would
> frown on, but I can't let that stop me from being honest in my post,
> nor can I let people's pushing their opinions on me sway me from what
> I intend on doing.

I wouldn't want you not to be honest in your posts, nor was I trying to
push my opinions on you or sway you from what you do. I was simply
reacting to what you wrote, giving my opinions. I was *also* being honest,
and I assume you wouldn't want me not to be.

Linda

--
Linda Wyatt
hilinda@...
http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
Learning everywhere, all the time.
Algebra before breakfast
"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be
mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown

D. J. Brewer

Dear Linda Wyatt,

I am always forthright with what I do, whatever list I belong to. I do not
ascribe to every view you have about children's education, nor do you ascribe
to mine. The whole issue of "pushing" at our house is a non-issue. There may
be parents who want to nudge their kids some and there may be others who
don't. It is definitely a parental perogative.

Your line of questioning is definitely designed to put one on the defensive,
even as that non-homeschooling mother in the store did to that woman who
homeschooled her children. Let us just say that our parenting styles probably
differ to some degree. Whether or not you have a problem with what I require
or do not require of my children is really a moot point. I don't have any
problem with how you are raising your kids.

I knew very well that I was introducing ideas that some people would frown on,
but I can't let that stop me from being honest in my post, nor can I let
people's pushing their opinions on me sway me from what I intend on doing.

Your questions were direct and succinct. I believe my answers are also.
Perhaps we can take up our differences in private posts. I like the concepts
of unschooling a lot. It is the only group of people that comes anywhere close
to what I think. I absolutely DO NOT fit in to those tightly structured school
at home groups. I may not fit in perfectly here, but then, I am not trying to.

Yours sincerely in Learning
DJ Brewer
homeschooling mother of 4

D. J. Brewer

Dear entire group --
I believe wholeheartedly in the light, guided touch that unschooling
offers. The trust and support that parents give their kids is so
crucial to their development. Perhaps Linda's reaction was because she
thought I was dissing what unschooling is about. I am NOT. Unschooling
is NOT unguided. It is guidance with the highest awareness of
sensitivity to the kids. It is allowing kids to learn by living. (It is
Yoda style guidance!)

Some other person wrote <I don't require writing and math like you do,
but I also don't consider our unschooling unguided.> Nor do I!!! I LIKE
the freedom that unschoolers provide. Learning basically can be done
ONLY by the person experiencing what he/she is learning. It is a solely
individual experience (although its outcomes can have collective
consequences).

I have two dyslexic children, and I chose this year to provide them with
more exercises in their areas of disability. If they did not have this
disability, I would be letting them do whatever they want, like their
older sister. But it is in fact, like physical therapy. Those issues
need to be addressed. I certainly DO NOT believe every family should do
that, or needs to.

I also see no reason NOT to push kids in areas where they need to get
something done. The word "push" may be a button word around here, but
in my house it is neutral. I am not talking about nagging or squelching
or driving, or being pushy. I am jes' talkin bout givin' a little push,
like, "Hey. Didja brush yer teeth?"

Everybody needs a little push now and then.[Image]

Love,
DJ Brewer

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

I may not fit in perfectly here, but then, I am not trying to.
>
>Yours sincerely in Learning
>DJ Brewer
>homeschooling mother of 4

Well, I liked a lot of what you had to say about the way that children
learn and I actually printed out your two messages and circled the passages
that I thought were well spoken and/or rung true and gave it to my DH to
read. Welcome to our online family. I'm glad you're here.

Nanci K. in Idaho

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>I like the term natural learners.

Oh yeah, me too!

Nanci K. in Idaho

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

Learning basically can be done ONLY by the person experiencing what he/she
is learning. It is a solely individual experience.... DJ

I believe this is so true as well. In fact, I was just having a discussion
along these very lines with my SIL who was visiting us last weekend. She
was stopping on the way to CO, where they are moving and her Dh and teenage
son are already living. They moved to Littleton, where their son is
attending the HS. He has had moderate success in PS, but he is a bright
and emotionally mature kid, and has really benefitted from his parents'
understanding of how kids learn, etc.

By the way, he says the kids at the HS are a little "weird" and sometimes
"get all quiet and gather around some spot in the hallway, talking in
hushed tones about this being the spot where so-and-so died..." but that in
general they are OK, and he has made some friends already. They had him
skip the first week, so that he would miss out on all the media circus when
the kids started school. He likes the town and the school. His mom told
him "no more morbid poetry" as he was writing some last year in his school
in WA for effect (on his teachers) and had SUCH an effect that she sent him
to the school counselor!

Joel Hawthorne

Oh i am so chatty today. Just can seem to be quiet. I am on the linda side of
this exchange. Which is not say I am not pushy with my kids because on
occasion I am. I just see it as a fault related to difficulties I have around
power. Yes I am the parent and they are the kids. However this does not lessen
my desire for them to learn their own minds and hearts first and foremost.
"Educational content" is totally of secondary importance. Self direction,
motivation, assertiveness, confidence far outweigh "knowledge" which can be
gotten if you have the above qualities anytime you want it.

Linda Wyatt wrote:

> From: Linda Wyatt <hilinda@...>
>
> > My kids do Saxon math --
>
> Do they have the option of not doing math at all?
>

> > I figure that is not too much to ask of a 10 and 12 year old. But this
> > moment was a LONG time coming. We talked about it for 2 years, so there
> > were NO surprises when I said, "OK, guys. Now it REALLY IS time for 2
> > paragraphs a day!"
>
> It's not a matter of it being too much to ask- it's the requirement part
> that I have trouble with.
>
> I cringe at the very idea of talking for two years about the time coming
> when something will be required, like it or not.
>
> I'd far rather just write, just allow them to do the writing they need.
> Which, btw, has been more than two paragraphs a day most of the time, no
> two years discussing it beforehand and then telling them to do it.
> Sometimes they write a lot, sometimes they go for a while without writing
> much of anything. But the surest way I can think of to make them self
> conscious about it is to require that they write, whether they have
> something to say or not. Writing is about communicating, about having
> something to say, not about performing for someone else.
>
> > I don't have
> > any problem with pushing the kids in areas where I know they need work.
> > It is for their own good.
>
> I don't see it as "for their own good", if it isn't what they want to be
> doing. I can't help but see it as for *your* needs, not theirs.
>
> > To me, unschooling is NOT synonymous with "unguided."
>
> Same here. But to me, guidance is not synonymous with, vaguely related to,
> or even compatible with requiring or pushing.
>
> Linda
>
> --
> Linda Wyatt
> hilinda@...
> http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
> Learning everywhere, all the time.
> Algebra before breakfast.-

best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/07/1999 4:23:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:

<< I like the term natural learners. >>

I think that is what I am going to name my private school when I file my
R-4 here in California. Something like The Natural Learning Center?
Sounds good with my screen name anyhow <g>. Thanks DJ

Kathy