I'd love some help (long)
[email protected]
Hi folks,
I'm hoping to get some input/support/help with a situation we're in. I have
my son's permission to share the following with you.
We are in our fourth year of homeschooling/unschooling. My 12 year old son is
going through a hard time right now. His father, who is VERY active in his
life, announced this summer he is getting married at the end of October to a
woman he'd known four days. My son, partner and I know her better, as she is
a close friend of a close friends of ours, and we all actually like her a
lot, but my son is still understandably freaked out. It was a long summer in
some ways, with his dad acting like a jerk to all of us, being pissed that we
weren't all delighted for him, blaming, etc. (My son's dad is one of my best
friends, and we have mostly gotten along forever. He also spends more time
with our son than most dads who live with their kids.)
My son has also just hit puberty and is NOT happy about it. It feels like
another thing he's out of control about. He's stressed about the World Trade
Center events because even the WORLD seems out of control. In the last year
he lost two beloved pets, and the two left are quite old. His grandmother has
an ongoing battle with cancer. You get the idea.
Not long ago, Julian expressed interest in doing an IQ test. I asked if he
wanted a professional, "official" thing, or just something casual, and he
said something casual was fine. I happened to find something on the web,
offered it, and he did it. I was not surprised to find that he scored
extremely high. He was.
Turns out that he's always thought he was average or possibly slightly below
in intelligence. (I had no idea that he believed this about himself. It was
something he kept pretty carefully hidden.) I think much of this comes from
having highly motivated friends who also have a certain amount of "attitude"
about their own intelligence, and from some bad early school experiences.
This basically objective information about himself (not so much a number, but
the fact that according to the test he scored higher than 98% of people
taking the test) feels good to him, but is also scary...it makes him have to
incorporate new knowledge of himself. (Not only is he not average or a little
below, but probably pretty far above. Again, not a surprise to US...but
certainly to HIM.)
So...we're trying to help. First, he has asked to see a counselor for a
little while, and we're going to do that. Second, he feels that he wants a
little more structure. We talked about unschooling, and both agreed that we
think continuing to unschool is best...He wants to learn what he wants, in
his own ways...BUT he wants more nudging to do things, more structure, etc.
He has a problem with self-motivation and wants help. He feels it will help
him feel safer, and like things are less out of control.
SO... How does one incorporate more structure into unschooling, at the
child's request? I am NOT the world's most structured person anyway, and he
has no idea how he wants it to look. I think ANYTHING coming from me would
help at this point, because I think he wants to feel taken care of and in
control. How do I help find a structure for us that still lets him be in
control of his life and learning?
Thanks, Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm hoping to get some input/support/help with a situation we're in. I have
my son's permission to share the following with you.
We are in our fourth year of homeschooling/unschooling. My 12 year old son is
going through a hard time right now. His father, who is VERY active in his
life, announced this summer he is getting married at the end of October to a
woman he'd known four days. My son, partner and I know her better, as she is
a close friend of a close friends of ours, and we all actually like her a
lot, but my son is still understandably freaked out. It was a long summer in
some ways, with his dad acting like a jerk to all of us, being pissed that we
weren't all delighted for him, blaming, etc. (My son's dad is one of my best
friends, and we have mostly gotten along forever. He also spends more time
with our son than most dads who live with their kids.)
My son has also just hit puberty and is NOT happy about it. It feels like
another thing he's out of control about. He's stressed about the World Trade
Center events because even the WORLD seems out of control. In the last year
he lost two beloved pets, and the two left are quite old. His grandmother has
an ongoing battle with cancer. You get the idea.
Not long ago, Julian expressed interest in doing an IQ test. I asked if he
wanted a professional, "official" thing, or just something casual, and he
said something casual was fine. I happened to find something on the web,
offered it, and he did it. I was not surprised to find that he scored
extremely high. He was.
Turns out that he's always thought he was average or possibly slightly below
in intelligence. (I had no idea that he believed this about himself. It was
something he kept pretty carefully hidden.) I think much of this comes from
having highly motivated friends who also have a certain amount of "attitude"
about their own intelligence, and from some bad early school experiences.
This basically objective information about himself (not so much a number, but
the fact that according to the test he scored higher than 98% of people
taking the test) feels good to him, but is also scary...it makes him have to
incorporate new knowledge of himself. (Not only is he not average or a little
below, but probably pretty far above. Again, not a surprise to US...but
certainly to HIM.)
So...we're trying to help. First, he has asked to see a counselor for a
little while, and we're going to do that. Second, he feels that he wants a
little more structure. We talked about unschooling, and both agreed that we
think continuing to unschool is best...He wants to learn what he wants, in
his own ways...BUT he wants more nudging to do things, more structure, etc.
He has a problem with self-motivation and wants help. He feels it will help
him feel safer, and like things are less out of control.
SO... How does one incorporate more structure into unschooling, at the
child's request? I am NOT the world's most structured person anyway, and he
has no idea how he wants it to look. I think ANYTHING coming from me would
help at this point, because I think he wants to feel taken care of and in
control. How do I help find a structure for us that still lets him be in
control of his life and learning?
Thanks, Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/29/01 10:26:14 AM, KathrynJB@... writes:
<<
SO... How does one incorporate more structure into unschooling, at the
child's request? >>
Do you have the books that come with encyclopedias (World Book or Book of
Knowledge), a paperback or two that's basically the outline of a curriculum?
If so, maybe just set that in his lap. Or there are online versions too.
SOMEWHERE (if anyone here knows, please spill the URL!) there is an online
curriculum you can plug your kid's name into and it creates a checklist and
keeps track of what's marked completed. Some of the structured-moms on
another list I'm on were talking about it and I looked at it, but nobody
seemed to have kept the address later.
Does he know or like the "What your xth grader needs to Know" series? Maybe
he could work through those, marking off what he already knows but reviewing
it, and finding other sources/resources for the sections he doesn't feel he
totally knows. That could keep him busy for a year, and feeling very
structured.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<<
SO... How does one incorporate more structure into unschooling, at the
child's request? >>
Do you have the books that come with encyclopedias (World Book or Book of
Knowledge), a paperback or two that's basically the outline of a curriculum?
If so, maybe just set that in his lap. Or there are online versions too.
SOMEWHERE (if anyone here knows, please spill the URL!) there is an online
curriculum you can plug your kid's name into and it creates a checklist and
keeps track of what's marked completed. Some of the structured-moms on
another list I'm on were talking about it and I looked at it, but nobody
seemed to have kept the address later.
Does he know or like the "What your xth grader needs to Know" series? Maybe
he could work through those, marking off what he already knows but reviewing
it, and finding other sources/resources for the sections he doesn't feel he
totally knows. That could keep him busy for a year, and feeling very
structured.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
On Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:24:47 EDT KathrynJB@... writes:
might feel the need for more structure now...
How about creating something that's structured, but still allows him to
have a lot of choices? Like, maybe find a booklist (the one in the
Teenage Liberation Handbook is nice) and having him choose and read a
book every couple weeks, or a short story every week? Handwriting might
also be good, I can't remember the name of the program I saw, but it
started withregular print and slowly worked into italic... a lot of folks
I know find handwriting sort of soothing when they're stressed, it's kind
of mindless...
Daron
________________________________________________________________
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> SO... How does one incorporate more structure into unschooling, atWhat a hard thing for him to be going through! I can understand how he
> the
> child's request? I am NOT the world's most structured person anyway,
> and he
> has no idea how he wants it to look. I think ANYTHING coming from me
> would
> help at this point, because I think he wants to feel taken care of
> and in
> control.
might feel the need for more structure now...
How about creating something that's structured, but still allows him to
have a lot of choices? Like, maybe find a booklist (the one in the
Teenage Liberation Handbook is nice) and having him choose and read a
book every couple weeks, or a short story every week? Handwriting might
also be good, I can't remember the name of the program I saw, but it
started withregular print and slowly worked into italic... a lot of folks
I know find handwriting sort of soothing when they're stressed, it's kind
of mindless...
Daron
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Karri
Hi Kathryn,
Maybe this could be as simple as a weekly(or monthly) meeting to discuss
goals. He can create goals, write them down, set deadlines, etc...with or
without your help. If he has a written plan, you will be able to look at it
to see if he needs *nudging*. This would work with any interest he wants to
pursue.
Karri
Maybe this could be as simple as a weekly(or monthly) meeting to discuss
goals. He can create goals, write them down, set deadlines, etc...with or
without your help. If he has a written plan, you will be able to look at it
to see if he needs *nudging*. This would work with any interest he wants to
pursue.
Karri
> SO... How does one incorporate more structure into unschooling, at thehe
> child's request? I am NOT the world's most structured person anyway, and
> has no idea how he wants it to look. I think ANYTHING coming from me would
> help at this point, because I think he wants to feel taken care of and in
> control. How do I help find a structure for us that still lets him be in
> control of his life and learning?
>
> Thanks, Kathryn
[email protected]
I don't think I understand this completely.( I'm slow ) Is he only
looking for structure in a few things or a regular sit down - every day -
all subject - curriculum?
Since you said he agrees unschooling is still the way to go, I'm thinking
it's just one or two things he's interested in structuring?
My biggest thought here is, maybe he just wants you with him. Right
there WITH him as he does - whatever. If he's feeling uncertain about
life, maybe it's not so much a structure thing as it is an assurance
thing. I only bring this up because my own son went through something
like this after the death of his grandfather.
If this isn't it, sorry about side tracking.
Well, if it's math or English maybe you could look for a math club or a
book club or young writers club that would meet regularly. Maybe there
are some on-line? Or, what about those unit studies I seem to see
everywhere on every topic. Maybe you could find some on things that
interest him. My son likes to do the Dell math puzzles and logic
problems that are published like a magazine once a month.
He could get a book of science experiments and work his way through. Or
Zoobooks, they now publish curriculums for certain issues. Probably
after you look at a few of them you could make up your own.
Is it Cobblestone that publishes all kinds of magazines for kids? They
are usually available at the library and they are on such topics as
social studies, culture, science etc. He could create his own unit
study. Yes, they publish Calliope, Faces, Odyssey, and Cobblestone (
just found the ad ) They sell these to schools so I bet they have
curriculums for certain issues too.
Writing in a journal? Might have therapeutic qualities too.
I'm sorry, I'm just guessing and thinking here. I'm sorry he's having a
hard time.
Deb L
looking for structure in a few things or a regular sit down - every day -
all subject - curriculum?
Since you said he agrees unschooling is still the way to go, I'm thinking
it's just one or two things he's interested in structuring?
My biggest thought here is, maybe he just wants you with him. Right
there WITH him as he does - whatever. If he's feeling uncertain about
life, maybe it's not so much a structure thing as it is an assurance
thing. I only bring this up because my own son went through something
like this after the death of his grandfather.
If this isn't it, sorry about side tracking.
Well, if it's math or English maybe you could look for a math club or a
book club or young writers club that would meet regularly. Maybe there
are some on-line? Or, what about those unit studies I seem to see
everywhere on every topic. Maybe you could find some on things that
interest him. My son likes to do the Dell math puzzles and logic
problems that are published like a magazine once a month.
He could get a book of science experiments and work his way through. Or
Zoobooks, they now publish curriculums for certain issues. Probably
after you look at a few of them you could make up your own.
Is it Cobblestone that publishes all kinds of magazines for kids? They
are usually available at the library and they are on such topics as
social studies, culture, science etc. He could create his own unit
study. Yes, they publish Calliope, Faces, Odyssey, and Cobblestone (
just found the ad ) They sell these to schools so I bet they have
curriculums for certain issues too.
Writing in a journal? Might have therapeutic qualities too.
I'm sorry, I'm just guessing and thinking here. I'm sorry he's having a
hard time.
Deb L
Bridget E Coffman
> Message: 10and he
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:24:47 EDT
> From: KathrynJB@...
> Subject: I'd love some help (long)
>
> SO... How does one incorporate more structure into unschooling, at the
> child's request? I am NOT the world's most structured person anyway,
> has no idea how he wants it to look. I think ANYTHING coming from mewould
> help at this point, because I think he wants to feel taken care of andin
> control. How do I help find a structure for us that still lets him bein
> control of his life and learning?I have a couple of thoughts. Is it possible he is looking for more
>
> Thanks, Kathryn
>
structure FROM you because he feels so out of cantrol and doesn't know
how to get back in control? I mean most of what you said is really out
of his control, maybe he feels like he can't do anything right now
without help. If that is the case, maybe you just need to set a few
schedules for the family and he would be okay.
It does not sound like he wants help with WHAT to study. You seem to be
saying his problem is in the when and if to study realm. At the risk of
getting jumped here yet again, maybe what you need to do is make up a
list of what are appropriate amounts for a day or week as a guideline,
which is what we did here. If you discuss with him while making up the
list, he will feel a part of the process without having to feel sole
responsibility for it.
If he really is asking for help choosing WHAT to study, I can't help much
as I've never really had to face that. My girls heve NEVER wanted help
with the 'what'!!!
Bridget
ps - One other thing - tell him IQ tests are meaningless in the real
world. He should not let a good score make him feel superior in
intellect because all that test tested was one little type of thought
process. It can not test how well he knows literature, or if he
understands the internal combustion engine well enough to fix it, or how
well he can play the piano, or how good he is at building furniture, or
whether he understands the concepts that rule our physical universe. My
dh and I both score really well on IQ tests (usually in the MENSA level).
And neither of us thinks they are worthwhile.
OO oo 00 oo OO 00 oo OO oo 00 oo OO 00 oo OO oo 00
oo OO 00 oo
And the Geezer says:
"Back in my day, 'Astral Projection' meant mooning someone!"
Sharon Rudd
--- Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...>
wrote:
. My
Then why did you mention it? Why "testS"? Why
"USUALLY"?
Sharon
__________________________________________________
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wrote:
. My
> dh and I both score really well on IQ tests (usually..............................................
> in the MENSA level).
> And neither of us thinks they are worthwhile.
Then why did you mention it? Why "testS"? Why
"USUALLY"?
Sharon
__________________________________________________
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Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
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[email protected]
In a message dated 09/30/2001 2:23:17 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
bearspawprint@... writes:
teen -- he sure sounds mature to me!
Nnace
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bearspawprint@... writes:
> I thinkI missed his age when I read earlier and have been picturing a much older
> > he's looking for balance, which I think is a pretty
> > mature goal for a twelve
> > year old.
> > Kathryn
>
>
teen -- he sure sounds mature to me!
Nnace
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
In the original post that this was in answer to "Not long ago, Julian
expressed interest in doing an IQ test."
Lynda
expressed interest in doing an IQ test."
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon Rudd <bearspawprint@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 7:19 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] IQ was I'd love some help (long)
>
> --- Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...>
> wrote:
> . My
> > dh and I both score really well on IQ tests (usually
> > in the MENSA level).
> > And neither of us thinks they are worthwhile.
> ..............................................
> Then why did you mention it? Why "testS"? Why
> "USUALLY"?
>
> Sharon
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
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>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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>
>
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>
>
Sharon Rudd
I remember. And that post also stated that the
informal test was benificial to Julian's perception of
himself. I don't really see anything wrong with it
all.
But, in Bridgette's reply, she took time to point out
some dangers of placing too much value on a "high" IQ.
And she also included a statement as to what she
percieves her own and her DH's (IQ)to be. And that
they have validated this with repeated testing.
("tests...."usually"). She is a bright lady. I bet
she gets the point. If IQ scores are not "worthwhile"
one doesn't go out of the way to state what they might
be. One omits that information.
There are lots of descriptions of what intelligence
may or may not be....and they are all interesting, but
not the last word....
I think it is fortunate that it was helpfull to the
young man to look in that particular mirror and see
such a nice reflection. Glad his Mama helped him do
it. I don't think he is in danger (from what she
described of him) as being in any danger of
self-aggrandisement.
Sharon
--- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
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Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
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informal test was benificial to Julian's perception of
himself. I don't really see anything wrong with it
all.
But, in Bridgette's reply, she took time to point out
some dangers of placing too much value on a "high" IQ.
And she also included a statement as to what she
percieves her own and her DH's (IQ)to be. And that
they have validated this with repeated testing.
("tests...."usually"). She is a bright lady. I bet
she gets the point. If IQ scores are not "worthwhile"
one doesn't go out of the way to state what they might
be. One omits that information.
There are lots of descriptions of what intelligence
may or may not be....and they are all interesting, but
not the last word....
I think it is fortunate that it was helpfull to the
young man to look in that particular mirror and see
such a nice reflection. Glad his Mama helped him do
it. I don't think he is in danger (from what she
described of him) as being in any danger of
self-aggrandisement.
Sharon
--- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> In the original post that this was in answer to "Not__________________________________________________
> long ago, Julian
> expressed interest in doing an IQ test."
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sharon Rudd <bearspawprint@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 7:19 AM
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] IQ was I'd love some
> help (long)
>
>
> >
> > --- Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...>
> > wrote:
> > . My
> > > dh and I both score really well on IQ tests
> (usually
> > > in the MENSA level).
> > > And neither of us thinks they are worthwhile.
> > ..............................................
> > Then why did you mention it? Why "testS"? Why
> > "USUALLY"?
> >
> > Sharon
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any
> phone.
> > http://phone.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter
> and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education
> Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
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julie m
>IMHO, IQ testing can be helpful in finding out and
> --- Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...>
> wrote:
> . My
> > dh and I both score really well on IQ tests
> (usually
> > in the MENSA level).
> > And neither of us thinks they are worthwhile.
accepting the ability to grasp concepts. I have an IQ
of 120, and I find that I can understand things a lot
quicker than others whose IQ isn't as high. While it
doesn't mean that I am better or 'more intelligent',
it has made me realise that I have the ability of a
quick mind. It was brought home to me the other day,
I have a girlfriend who had a head injury last year,
and some of the things that i percieve as simple, she
just cant get her head around. Her son is in school,
and she often rings me up to check that what she
thinks his homework is saying is actually what it is,
and sometimes she just hasnt a clue, when it to me is
very simple.
So tests like IQ and memory testing can have its
place, although, I have to admit you have to be in the
right place emotionally (sometimes) to comprehend just
what the test is saying, eg, i am dumb, but I have a
high IQ. Is htere other stuff going on the brain,
that is taking up resources? That was my problem.
Just my thoughts.
Julz
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Sharon Rudd
Julz, I suspect your "IQ" mesures higher than what you
posted, in some areas, such as compassion. Only that
isn't in the ratings.
Your friend with the head injury may still have an
intact IQ and have other cognitive difficulties. Head
injuries are odd sometimes. She does still have good
sense. She calls you for help.
Sharon who suffers from mental pauses and plain
stupidness a lot
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posted, in some areas, such as compassion. Only that
isn't in the ratings.
Your friend with the head injury may still have an
intact IQ and have other cognitive difficulties. Head
injuries are odd sometimes. She does still have good
sense. She calls you for help.
Sharon who suffers from mental pauses and plain
stupidness a lot
> I have a girlfriend who had a head injury last year,Is htere other stuff going on the brain,
> > she often rings me up to check that what she
> thinks .....> and sometimes she just hasnt a clue,
> that is taking up resources? That was my problem.__________________________________________________
> Just my thoughts.
> Julz
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[email protected]
<< IMHO, IQ testing can be helpful in finding out and
accepting the ability to grasp concepts. >>
I don't think it can.
I think anyone who's still attached to or ashamed of or even thinking about
their IQ scores should read Howard Gardner's _Frames of Mind_ or anything
else about multiple intelliences, and get over it.
IQ tests don't measure musical ability, and absodamnlutely cannot and will
not even ever give a single "extra point" to interpersonal skills.
Being good at vocabulary and formal math don't make good humans, good moms,
or even great employees or college students! It's a scam and an abuse. The
harm buries any slight benefits.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
accepting the ability to grasp concepts. >>
I don't think it can.
I think anyone who's still attached to or ashamed of or even thinking about
their IQ scores should read Howard Gardner's _Frames of Mind_ or anything
else about multiple intelliences, and get over it.
IQ tests don't measure musical ability, and absodamnlutely cannot and will
not even ever give a single "extra point" to interpersonal skills.
Being good at vocabulary and formal math don't make good humans, good moms,
or even great employees or college students! It's a scam and an abuse. The
harm buries any slight benefits.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
what helped my kids when they felt this way is a write and wipe board
hanging in the diningroom, I list things that need done around the
house there all the time so my kids decided to list all the things
they felt they should do for the week on there, now they just made
like a list I want to do 5 workbook pages and play oregon trail for a
while read a book stuff like that and that may be all he needs, but
it is all self created without your real imput!
he can choose to do it or leave it!
I think that by giving him an acctual curriculum he will think he
HAS to know all of that stuff and not feel as free to choose what he
wants where as if he makes a list of things he would like to
investigate, read or work on he has done all of the coosing freely
without anyone elses idea of what a 12yo needs to know! thus more
self satisfying!
hope this helps!
Tanya
hanging in the diningroom, I list things that need done around the
house there all the time so my kids decided to list all the things
they felt they should do for the week on there, now they just made
like a list I want to do 5 workbook pages and play oregon trail for a
while read a book stuff like that and that may be all he needs, but
it is all self created without your real imput!
he can choose to do it or leave it!
I think that by giving him an acctual curriculum he will think he
HAS to know all of that stuff and not feel as free to choose what he
wants where as if he makes a list of things he would like to
investigate, read or work on he has done all of the coosing freely
without anyone elses idea of what a 12yo needs to know! thus more
self satisfying!
hope this helps!
Tanya