[email protected]

In a message dated 9/27/01 5:36:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> I believe that sharing knowlege, sharing lives is just that. Brenda


The only thing we have is experience, strength and hope...

Dawn
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dawn Falbe
Personal Development Coach
Relocational Astrologer
(520) 579-2646
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Path of Least Resistance is Inside of You
www.astrologerdawn.com
Enlightening women on how to live their Soul Purpose

"The people who get on in this world
are people who get up and look for the
circumstances they want, and,
if they can't find them, make them." - George Bernard Shaw

"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school."-George
Bernard Shaw





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/27/01 8:52:28 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
NumoAstro@... writes:


> The only thing we have is experience, strength and hope...

:)

Brenda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

quinlonsma

:-/

I'm not trained for this. I have no tools.

3year olds are a challenge unlike any other.

Mine isn't sharing. In fact he so far as to explore the OPPOSITE of
sharing. He is perfecting the Snatch and Grab, the look of
intimidation, the scream. I going to be really put out if he starts
peeing on things.

My husband is of the school of "do unto others" he wants us to wander
around screaming and snatching things to "show him" "what it's like"

Ummm... NO

My Mom thinks he's too young and I should just distract him.

Ummmm... No

Up until now I've always explained. Showed him how sad his sister
looks. How angry Daddy looks. Dear son, please notice how upset you
are when the boy at the park won't share the car he brought. Dear son,
please notice how much fun is had with you and your friends when you
share your toys. Mommy LOVES sharing with you. Mommy doesn't grab
things from you.

talk talk talk example example example

and then at wits end "Go to the bedroom and chill out" NOW

What am I missing here?

He went from not sharing to out and out straight in the eye defiance

He wants to know what is going to happen when he doesn't share. Up
until now he's gotten a talk from mommy and the toy in question given
to the other child or taken out of the scenario for the rest of the day.

Also, why am I so bothered by a child in our playgroup bringing a
large ride on toy and not sharing it with anyone? In our family the
rules is if you bring something to the group expect to share it with
the group. If you don't want to share it leave it at home.

My son is 3 years and my daughter is 15 months

Thanks All,
Amy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/14/05 9:31:18 PM, quinlonsma@... writes:


> Dear son, please notice how upset you
> are when the boy at the park won't share the car he brought. Dear son,
> please notice how much fun is had with you and your friends when you
> share your toys. Mommy LOVES sharing with you. Mommy doesn't grab
> things from you.
>

Too high-level?
Three words might be the limit for some kids to hear.

You might be teaching him to ignore you.

And do you really say "Mommy doesn't..." instead of "I don't"?
Try not to baby-talk him.

That might seem contradictory, but short REAL direct communication beats long
droning baby-talk lectures.

Sandra
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

I think you should listen to your mom! <G>

And do a lot of sharing with him.

-pam


On Oct 14, 2005, at 7:07 PM, quinlonsma wrote:

> My Mom thinks he's too young and I should just distract him.
>
> Ummmm... No



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<< 3year olds are a challenge unlike any other.

Mine isn't sharing. In fact he so far as to explore the OPPOSITE of
sharing. He is perfecting the Snatch and Grab, the look of
intimidation, the scream. I going to be really put out if he starts
peeing on things.>>>>

3 is too young to share, generally. They just aren't ready to do it.

I would guess that he is now fighting because he has been basically forced,
as it would be from *his* point of view, to share through being told that it
is an important or essential characteristic of goodness.

My dd has never been forced to share things that she owns, nor had any kind
of insistence made on doing it. I do all I can to facilitate her reluctance
to share as has been necessary, such as taking responsibility to say that
certain special toys are "put up and not available to others today" or
taking on the role of intermediary and saying things like, "Jayn isn't ready
to share that toy today".

The result is that Jayn now (starting from 4.5 or so) constantly and
generously shares almost all of her toys with her visitors and at the park.

Robyn L. Coburn

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.0/132 - Release Date: 10/13/2005

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> My Mom thinks he's too young and I should just distract him.
>
> Ummmm... No

You are talking about a three year old, right? Three is really really
little. When your three, or five, or even seven year old is your
oldest, it is easy to think of them as BIG. They aren't though, no
matter how mature they seem at times, three year olds are very very
little.

Personally, I did a lot of distracting with my kids when they were
three. I would also never expect other kids to share at the park and I
would *never* force my child to share their toys with others (especially
strangers). Maybe the child that brought the large ride on toy to the
park doesn't have a place at home where they can play with it? Why
should they have to give up their only time with their toy to others? I
certainly wouldn't let anyone touch my bicycle when I take it to the
park... I also don't let anyone play with my car, or listen to my CDs,
or touch my bag, or take my food, etc.

IMO, sharing is way overrated.

-Lisa in AZ

Wendy S.

On Oct 15, 2005, at 1:38 AM, Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley wrote:

> Why
> should they have to give up their only time with their toy to
> others? I
> certainly wouldn't let anyone touch my bicycle when I take it to the
> park... I also don't let anyone play with my car, or listen to my
> CDs,
> or touch my bag, or take my food, etc.
>
> IMO, sharing is way overrated.
>
> -Lisa in AZ

This is what I was thinking. I went to a very "progressive"
Montessori school (mom and dad would have unschooled if they'd
known). When asked about sharing, the teachers would say to the
parents, "Would you share all you clothes with me? How about your
house?" And the point was taken.

Wendy S. in GA

http://www.trustbirth.com

"Motherhood: 24/7 on the frontlines of humanity. Are you man enough
to try it?" Maria Shriver




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 14, 2005, at 10:56 PM, Wendy S. wrote:

>
>
>> Why
>> should they have to give up their only time with their toy to
>> others? I
>> certainly wouldn't let anyone touch my bicycle when I take it to the
>> park... I also don't let anyone play with my car, or listen to my
>> CDs,
>> or touch my bag, or take my food, etc.

People generally DO share their bikes when we take them to our park
days. And their scooters. And their sand toys. And their wooden
swords. And their balls and even Game Boys. And we share food a LOT!
(Amy goes to the same park day as I do, by the way.) Kids are
encouraged to ask, not just pick up somebody else's stuff, but I know
that parents talk to their kids before getting to the park and pretty
much make sure that they don't bring things they don't want to share.
Sometimes younger kids, 2 and 3 year olds, don't want to share and
usually parents will try to put the item away or find an alternative
for the child who wants the item.

I think it is a social faux pas to bring something VERY attractive
and big and unusual and super cool to a "group" activity where the
general "culture" is that things are brought and shared - and then
not share it. I'm pretty sure that the person who brought it was
someone not familiar with our group and most likely was just thinking
that it was something fun for her child to play with at the park -
not thinking of it as "group" time. I'm also guessing that if there
were problems with other kids that she'll most likely have realized
it and won't do it again.

Park days are mostly for kids to play with other kids - make
friends. It isn't very conducive to that when kids have super-cool
toys that they won't share with other kids, so as a practical matter,
it makes sense not to bring them to park days.

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Denise Thomas

--- Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
wrote:

> Park days are mostly for kids to play with other
> kids - make
> friends. It isn't very conducive to that when kids
> have super-cool
> toys that they won't share with other kids, so as a
> practical matter,
> it makes sense not to bring them to park days.

Like bringing a dish to a potluck and then stating to
everyone that it is just for you! :oD
This would be different than going to a "bring your
own picnic lunch" activity where each family eats
their own stuff. We as adults usually makes sure we
are clear as to which type of situation we are going
into before we go, so maybe letting our kids know
ahead of time which kind they are about to go to would
help? A "toy-luck" or a "BYOT"
Denise

Denise

Please visit Symphony Sam, an exciting upcoming TV show for children about Classical Music that we are creating:
http://www.hotmusic.org/SymphonySam




__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

Schuyler Waynforth

Why does he have to share? I missed that step in your e-mail.

He shares you with a 15 month old. That is a lot to share. It isn't
something he can control at all. But, a toy, a piece of candy, a big
riding something at the park, all of those things can be held and kept
and enjoyed all by himself. And a 15 month old can be distracted so
much more easily.

Forcing sharing often seems to produce children who no way no how want
to share. I once watched a little 3 year old boy who'd borrowed a
scooter from us at a campground and who had invented this really fun
game to play with it have it taken away from him by his mother because
some other little girl noticed that he was playing with it. Not only
did she take the scooter away from him, but she then played with the
other little girl, leaving him with nothing to do and noone to play
with. As I watched I thought about how he would learn very quickly to
play where no one could see him, how he would learn that enjoying
something publically could lead to having whatever he was playing with
be taken away from him.

Simon and Linnaea, who will give away their last piece of chocolate
without thinking, or will search the house for toys they want to give
to friends before they go home, are far less likely to share with each
other than with any other person. There seem to be too many power
struggles between siblings to expect consistent sharing. I just try
and give them space to not share, doing things like offering to play a
game with Linnaea when Simon won't let her play with his Yu-gi-oh
cards, or helping Simon find something special to eat when Linnaea
won't share something special to eat that she has. It stops the
fighting between the two of them and takes away the sense of loss from
the one left out.

Schuyler


--- In [email protected], "quinlonsma"
<quinlonsma@y...> wrote:
>
> :-/
>
> I'm not trained for this. I have no tools.
>
> 3year olds are a challenge unlike any other.
>
> Mine isn't sharing. In fact he so far as to explore the OPPOSITE of
> sharing. He is perfecting the Snatch and Grab, the look of
> intimidation, the scream. I going to be really put out if he starts
> peeing on things.
>
> My husband is of the school of "do unto others" he wants us to wander
> around screaming and snatching things to "show him" "what it's like"
>
> Ummm... NO
>
> My Mom thinks he's too young and I should just distract him.
>
> Ummmm... No
>
> Up until now I've always explained. Showed him how sad his sister
> looks. How angry Daddy looks. Dear son, please notice how upset you
> are when the boy at the park won't share the car he brought. Dear son,
> please notice how much fun is had with you and your friends when you
> share your toys. Mommy LOVES sharing with you. Mommy doesn't grab
> things from you.
>
> talk talk talk example example example
>
> and then at wits end "Go to the bedroom and chill out" NOW
>
> What am I missing here?
>
> He went from not sharing to out and out straight in the eye defiance
>
> He wants to know what is going to happen when he doesn't share. Up
> until now he's gotten a talk from mommy and the toy in question given
> to the other child or taken out of the scenario for the rest of the day.
>
> Also, why am I so bothered by a child in our playgroup bringing a
> large ride on toy and not sharing it with anyone? In our family the
> rules is if you bring something to the group expect to share it with
> the group. If you don't want to share it leave it at home.
>
> My son is 3 years and my daughter is 15 months
>
> Thanks All,
> Amy
>

Kathleen Whitfield

on 10/15/05 3:15 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> My dd has never been forced to share things that she owns, nor had any kind
> of insistence made on doing it.

I agree with all the people who say that 3-year-olds aren't ready/able to
share, and they do it willingly when they're not forced to.

The concept of "sharing" can turn terrorizing. My 7yo used to bring her
scooter to a park day, and she would share it willingly with no problems.
One day, a group of girls got together and tried to enforce their rules for
when and how she shared the scooter upon her. A family who has a lot of
schooled children but also friends in the group had come that day, and those
children in particular seemed very fixated on *making* my daughter share. I
intervened when I saw what was going on. It was pretty awful -- a pack
chasing and yelling at her, telling her that she had to get off because it
was so-and-so's turn. When I came up, I think the girls expected me to help
them force the scooter from her. It had truly never been an issue before
that day -- she enjoyed seeing her friends have fun riding her scooter.

I do think it's dramatically more of a challenge to set up the kind of
situation that Robyn describes when you have two toddlers!

My 20-month-old and 3-year-old oftentimes will start grabbing things from
each other. The 20-month-old, for example, even when he has his own little
bowl of pomegranate seeds, might see that his older sister has some and try
to take hers from her as well. Which of course is completely developmentally
normal -- but I understand that it's hard on everyone, particularly my older
girl (in my family it's not helped by the fact that the younger one has a
naturally more aggressive quality *and* he weighs within a pound or two of
what she does). And sometimes either one of them will only want precisely
what the other one has.

I think what helps is, yes, distraction and intervention. I don't mean in a
"Let's all sit down and share" way, but in a "Here, come sit down with me.
Let's read a book while you're eating the seeds" -- and then place them on
different sides of me so it's less of an issue. Also, making sure that we
don't have a situation of scarcity: "Would you like more seeds? We have
lots. I can cut another pomegranate." My little kids do love it when I give
them a *big* bowl of whatever -- I think they like the feeling of abundance
(I know I would). And, even though we have a lot of toys, we don't have as
many as might be needed a certain points; there's also the effect of one
toddler wanting whichever toy the other one has because its value is enhance
by its position in the other child's hands.

Sometimes I assess the situation and see which of them seems to be
particularly interested in a given toy right then and there try to bring the
other one off to do something with just me alone. Sometimes I'm wrong, and
there's a huge protest from the one I've tried to distract -- or the one
whom I've left with the coveted item makes it clear that my special
attention has the greater value, as the toy is abandoned by both of them.

Kathleen
in LA

Danielle Conger

quinlonsma wrote:

> ===I'm not trained for this. I have no tools.===

On the AU list, we talk about *lots* of tools, primarily parenting tools
that fit in with and encourage an Unschooling lifestyle. It's a good
place to hang out with other mothers of young kids, dealing with similar
ages and stages in a way that naturally transitions into unschooling.

> ===Mine isn't sharing. In fact he so far as to explore the OPPOSITE of
> sharing. He is perfecting the Snatch and Grab, the look of
> intimidation, the scream. I going to be really put out if he starts
> peeing on things.===

3 year olds explore LOTS of things. That's their job, what they're
programmed to do. If you and your husband are making sharing into an
issue, something he "must" do because it's the "right" thing to do, then
*you* are creating the power struggle. You guys are creating an
environment where your son needs to resist in order to preserve his own
autonomy. You guys are setting up an adversarial relationship that your
son is picking up on and fitting in the best way he can. He's learning
all the nuances of being adversarial--quick before anyone can notice or
stop me, look really mean, be really loud.

>
> ===My husband is of the school of "do unto others" he wants us to wander
> around screaming and snatching things to "show him" "what it's like"
>
> Ummm... NO===

I agree, no. Model the behavior you value. Modeling is your single
greatest tool at this age; kids learn from how they're treated. If you
want him to act badly, treat him badly.

>
> ===My Mom thinks he's too young and I should just distract him.
>
> Ummmm... No===

Why not? What's wrong with distraction? It doesn't work with all
children, but it's a great tool to defuse a situation and keep from
setting up an adversarial exchange. If you're trying to teach him a
lesson about sharing, then I can see why you might be hesitant to lose
an opportunity to do so. But, I'd suggest that you focus on the joy of
relationship building and let go of the idea of teaching him lessons.
Let him learn from life by your modeling and your gentle involvement as
his ally, helping him get what he wants rather than foiling his desires
and bending him to your image of who you'd like him to be.

>
> ===Up until now I've always explained. Showed him how sad his sister
> looks. How angry Daddy looks. Dear son, please notice how upset you
> are when the boy at the park won't share the car he brought. Dear son,
> please notice how much fun is had with you and your friends when you
> share your toys. Mommy LOVES sharing with you. Mommy doesn't grab
> things from you.
>
> talk talk talk example example example
>
> and then at wits end "Go to the bedroom and chill out" NOW
>
> What am I missing here?===

I think the problem is that your focus is still on making him share.
Pointing out how his choice affects his sister can be really helpful,
but not in the context of "look how bad she feels, share now or take a
time out."

What I've found more successful is helping my kids negotiate use of
common toys and supporting their ownership over their own toys. So, my
approach might differ depending upon the ownership. Children need to own
their things in the same way we do. I wouldn't force dh to share his
ipod out of a principle that sharing is good, yet, he freely chooses to
share his older ipod shuffle with the kids. Sharing is good, generally
speaking, but not always and in all cases.

If it were something of common ownership, I'd help the kids arrive at a
solution that worked for them both. It's really hard to share. Start
there; start by validating and showing him that your on his side. Then
move to the observation of the other's reaction: she looks really sad
because she sees how much fun you're having with it. Then, I'd ask if we
could come up with a solution, which with such young kids might end up
being as vague as "could you tell her when you're done using it?"

Especially if your son has been forced to share, he will need lots of
time and space to get the idea that you're not going to force him to do
that anymore, to realize that you're on his side rather than against
him. What worked for us for quite a while was offering a specific time
frame or number of turns that made it easier for the waiting person, but
that was something we arrived at together rather than something I
imposed, and it was in the context of not being forced to give something
up. There were no time-outs or loss of something for a day backing it
up, only the idea that it is really hard to wait.

>
> ===He went from not sharing to out and out straight in the eye
> defiance ===

Yes, because he's trying to retain his sense of self, his sense of
sovereignty over himself. Can you re-read the words below and see how
adversarial they sound? How would you react to someone doing the same
thing to you? Defiant? I know I would.

>
> ===He wants to know what is going to happen when he doesn't share. Up
> until now he's gotten a talk from mommy and the toy in question given
> to the other child or taken out of the scenario for the rest of the
> day.===
>
> ===Also, why am I so bothered by a child in our playgroup bringing a
> large ride on toy and not sharing it with anyone? In our family the
> rules is if you bring something to the group expect to share it with
> the group. If you don't want to share it leave it at home.===

Maybe do some reading around about rules vs. principles. Think about the
difference for a while and see if it doesn't change your perspective; it
did mine. Sandra's collected some stuff here: http://sandradodd.com/rules

--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

Tracey Inman

>>My Mom thinks he's too young and I should just distract him.<<

I agree with your mom. My sister and her dh just adopted a little girl from
India. If Morgan is doing something they would rather her not do or is
something that will hurt her, they don't get into a lengthy conversation
about it. They simple distract and/or move her to something she can do.
Children don't understand adult chatter. They learn mostly by doing. So
IMHO I believe the distracting (ie. Moving to something new) or modeling the
behavior we want from them teaches far more than ranting or long
explanations. My girls are 10 & 13 and that is what I still do with them.

~Tracey I.

[email protected]

> -=-Personally, I did a lot of distracting with my kids when they were
> three. -=-
>

I still do it, and my youngest is 13.
Sometimes when one of them is spinning off into hyperactive-land or getting
cranky and seeming on the edge of saying something regrettable, I will just
call him or her over and ask an unrelated question, or just say "Are things going
okay?" and it breaks the crazy-spell. Sometimes the kid needs a moment away
and a mom to blame it on. Sometimes he's really thirsty or hungry or just
needed a breather, and then goes back in and things are better.

-=-IMO, sharing is way overrated.-=-

It's necessary at school, though, isn't it? Maybe that's where it was
glorified.
Twenty kids needed to share one see-saw (before they were declared to
dangerous to exist) and take turns on the swings, and all that.

But on the other hand, my kids are really generous with each other when it
comes to video games, computers, food and cash. It's been that way since they
were little, too, and I think it's because they were loved and attended to and
encouraged and they didn't feel needy.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<< I do think it's dramatically more of a challenge to set up the kind of
situation that Robyn describes when you have two toddlers!>>>

I wonder if it is even more important for children with siblings to be
supported in their personal ownership of certain toys or items. I'm guessing
that there are a lot more toys that are "group owned", as well as
hand-me-downs, in a larger family. Jayn has no difficulty in understanding
what is hers and what is not. It must be a whole different dynamic when some
things quite literally belong to all the kids.

<<<< Sometimes I assess the situation and see which of them seems to be
particularly interested in a given toy right then and there try to bring the
other one off to do something with just me alone. Sometimes I'm wrong, and
there's a huge protest from the one I've tried to distract -- or the one
whom I've left with the coveted item makes it clear that my special
attention has the greater value, as the toy is abandoned by both of them.
>>>>

One thing is clear. Helping children with sharing, whether only's or
siblings, requires a lot of proactive energy on the part of the parents,
both to head off potential conflicts, and to resolve those that flare up
despite best intentions. The first step is to get away from the notion that
sharing is a crucial indication of character, so must be taught from the
earliest ages.

Robyn L. Coburn

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.0/132 - Release Date: 10/13/2005

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 15, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

>
> I wonder if it is even more important for children with siblings to be
> supported in their personal ownership of certain toys or items. I'm
> guessing
> that there are a lot more toys that are "group owned", as well as
> hand-me-downs, in a larger family. Jayn has no difficulty in
> understanding
> what is hers and what is not. It must be a whole different dynamic
> when some
> things quite literally belong to all the kids.

And when Mom has a hard time, sometimes, remembering which things
belong to which kid. My girls have so many common interests and so
often it would be silly to have duplicates of the same items, so they
share a lot.

Robyn's point is a REALLY good one. When kids have had things of
their own that are special and that they don't share - when their
parents are supportive and protective of them not wanting to share,
then they could be reminded of that at the park when a child has
something they don't want to share. Might make it a little easier t
understand. I could imagine saying, "Maybe that is so-and-so's
special toy, just like you have your special whateveritis."

(I still think it isn't cool to take a super amazing wonderful BIG
(hard to miss) toy to a park day and ride it all over the park and
not let anybody else ride it. That's a parent not "getting" what park
day will be like and how to help their own child make friends. But
maybe there were extenuating circumstances that we don't know about -
maybe the kid was scared to death to go to the park and mom really
wanted to go and taking the special toy was a way both could be
happy. Who knows?)

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

>
> (I still think it isn't cool to take a super amazing wonderful BIG
> (hard to miss) toy to a park day and ride it all over the park and
> not let anybody else ride it. That's a parent not "getting" what park
> day will be like and how to help their own child make friends. But
> maybe there were extenuating circumstances that we don't know about -
> maybe the kid was scared to death to go to the park and mom really
> wanted to go and taking the special toy was a way both could be
> happy. Who knows?)

Well, we have been in just such a scenario. Sam has a hard time being
with other people, sharing, making transitions, etc. (Some people may
have seen a bit of this at the picnic Sunday, though overall he was
amazing at the conference and saved much of his discharging for this
past week at home.) My girls, however, tend to be very social and like
to get out to things like park days. A couple times we've been able to
be there and meet everyone's needs by bringing some toys that Sam and I
can play together and which he's NOT willing to share, usually small
toys that fit in a backpack and we set up somewhere off to the side on a
blanket. Not terribly sociable as far as Sam and I are concerned, but
for our family it works out as a win/ win. Sam and I get special time
together one on one and the girls get to play with their friends.
Sometimes this is the only way we can all get to park day. I try to
explain our situation as gently as possible to younger kids who wander
over, wanting to play, and occasionally Sam has chosen to share and
invite someone into his game.


--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

quinlonsma

> Mine isn't sharing. In fact he so far as to explore the OPPOSITE of
> sharing.

I wrote this toward the end of LONG week. Sharing has been the center
of our universe and I believe we have all learned alot.

> My Mom thinks he's too young and I should just distract him.
>
> Ummmm... No

To those who pointed it out, your right, he is very little and I was
forgetting. Distraction is a wonderful tool and I really shouldn't
knock it. We do us distraction more than anything else in our home. I
guess I just wanted to make sure I wasn't over using it.


> He went from not sharing to out and out straight in the eye defiance
>
> He wants to know what is going to happen when he doesn't share. Up
> until now he's gotten a talk from mommy and the toy in question given
> to the other child or taken out of the scenario for the rest of the day.

The evening after I wraote this I went and reread some of the NVC
website articles. I tries to look at this more from my sons
perspective. I thought about how Morgan has really gotten good at
walking lately and is in more and more of the house than ever before.
How she's better at following him than she was before and how he
doesn't get as much alone time as he used to. (he's more of an
introvert.) And of course how he hasn't had alot of Mommy alone time
either.

Friday night I made sure we snuggled a little extra. Saturday morning
instead of sitting in my chair and knitting I sat on the pillows with
Quin and his cars and played with him. When Morgan came over I made
sure to offer her something from a different group of toys than what
Quin was playing with. Then we talked about how hard it is sometimes
when other people come over to play, but how it's more fun with more
people too.


> Also, why am I so bothered by a child in our playgroup bringing a
> large ride on toy and not sharing it with anyone? In our family the
> rules is if you bring something to the group expect to share it with
> the group. If you don't want to share it leave it at home.

I spent some time thinking about this one too. I don't share my car at
playgroup, though, I don't think I'd mind either.

I also thought about how a few months back my son didn't want to share
toys at playgroup. I didn't force him too but I also didn't "watch"
his toys for him either. He quickly learned it was alot of work to
actively hoarde his toys and it wasn't much fun either.

I also thought about how the person didn't seem very familiar to me. I
though aout how I am much faster to share with my established friends
than with a complete stranger.

I really like the analogy that was posted about the toy-luck or the BYOT.

> My son is 3 years and my daughter is 15 months

Someone had asked why I want them to share. It's pretty complicated
but it boils down to two things. I learned how nice it feels to help
others and share and I want them to feel that as well. AND It fits
neatly into my utopian view of home life ;)

I just joined the AlwaysUnschooled list and am excited about having a
few minutes to go through the messages archive.

My husband just finished reading Sandras' page on rules and we are
going to talk about it today.

Thanks to all of you,
Amy

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 16, 2005, at 4:10 PM, quinlonsma wrote:

> It's pretty complicated
> but it boils down to two things. I learned how nice it feels to help
> others and share and I want them to feel that as well. AND It fits
> neatly into my utopian view of home life ;)

Ah, but think about how NOT nice it feels to have someone disapprove
of you, or to make you do something that doesn't feel right or to
share when you don't want to!

The best way to get them to be generous is to be generous with them
-- while not expecting them to be generous in return. :-) It will
take time, but it works much better than making them.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen Whitfield

on 10/16/05 3:22 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> I wonder if it is even more important for children with siblings to be
> supported in their personal ownership of certain toys or items. I'm guessing
> that there are a lot more toys that are "group owned", as well as
> hand-me-downs, in a larger family. Jayn has no difficulty in understanding
> what is hers and what is not. It must be a whole different dynamic when some
> things quite literally belong to all the kids.

I think you're right. There are whole different dynamics. Unschooling one
child will have different challenges than unschooling three or four. Toy
squabbles are more likely with younger kids, though, who would have
difficulties understanding property rights even if there were a whole lot of
specific divisions.

What I've noticed, though, is that with the range of my kids' ages that
there aren't a whole lot of toys that *everyone* wants to play with,
particularly at the same time. And the older kids have more possessions that
are "theirs."

Kathleen

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/16/05 2:47:31 PM, quinlonsma@... writes:


> -=-Someone had asked why I want them to share. It's pretty complicated
> but it boils down to two things. I learned how nice it feels to help
> others and share and I want them to feel that as well.-=-
>

There are LOTS of things you learned that you want them to learn, but they're
just too young for things like reading, and riding bikes, and sharing.

Let them develop all those things in their own peaceful, well-protected time.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>


The best way to get them to be generous is to be generous with them
-- while not expecting them to be generous in return. :-) It will
take time, but it works much better than making them.

-=-=-=-

And TOO often, children who are *made* to share start to *hoard* and
NOT share because they can't trust to be able to hold on to their own stuff.

You *can* force someone to share---as long as you are in control. Selfishness
happens when what's yours never feels as if it really IS.

I've found that the most generous people have been "only" children who never
really *had* to share with a sibling.

Be generous. They will too when they're ready.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/16/05 3:56:07 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:


>
> I've found that the most generous people have been "only" children who never
> really *had* to share with a sibling.
>

Very often true, but not when they're three. <g>

Just wanted to defend the honor of onlies who haven't gotten old enough to
come into their own glorious sharing phases yet.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

** You *can* force someone to share---as long as you are in control.
Selfishness
happens when what's yours never feels as if it really IS.**

Right.

I think forced sharing isn't really *sharing*, it's actually *lack of
ownership*.

Betsy

Beth

<<From: Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
The best way to get them to be generous is to be generous with them --
while not expecting them to be generous in return. :-) It will take time,
but it works much better than making them.>>

We've seen this happen with our own children, now 15, 11, and 7.5. When
they were young we tried never to 'make' them share anything that belonged
to them. If they wanted to share, that was fine, and if they didn't want to
share, that was fine too. My mother was the one who pointed out to us that
nobody forces adults to share possessions, so nobody should force children
to share theirs either. The only guidance our children have received with
respect to sharing and generosity has been the modeling of the behavior from
the adults in their lives.

This past Thursday my 15 year old spent the majority of the day at the mall
with one of her friends. She took her hard-earned babysitting money with
her to buy a few outfits for herself. She did buy a lot of cute clothes for
herself, but what struck me the most is that she also came home with a pair
of earrings for her 11-year-old sister, a rubber, Lance Armstrong-type
bracelet for her brother (he collects bracelets like that), a bar of Godiva
chocolate for me, and one for her dad.

My mom told me it would happen naturally if we didn't force it and, as
usual, she was right.

Beth

Kathleen Whitfield

on 10/17/05 3:46 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> (I still think it isn't cool to take a super amazing wonderful BIG
> (hard to miss) toy to a park day and ride it all over the park and
> not let anybody else ride it. That's a parent not "getting" what park
> day will be like and how to help their own child make friends. But
> maybe there were extenuating circumstances that we don't know about -
> maybe the kid was scared to death to go to the park and mom really
> wanted to go and taking the special toy was a way both could be
> happy. Who knows?)

I brought up the example of my daughter having trouble letting other
children ride her scooter at the park *one time.* Usually, it wasn't an
issue and other children did ride it. There was some weird dynamic going on
that one day and it wasn't a "friends sharing the scooter" situation. I
don't know precisely what started it, but, as I said, it hadn't been a
problem before and I have some suspicions. And the scooter has come to park
day since with no apparent issues.

I actually agree with you -- park day toys will be something that we bring
for everyone's enjoyment.

Kathleen
in LA

Pamela Sorooshian

Just so you know, Kathleen, I wasn't referring to anything you said
about a scooter. I was referring to the original question asked by
Amy - which was about someone at our park day whose child brought a
"pedal-car" to the park and then didn't let other kids ride it. This
was a person who had never been to our park day before and most
likely just hadn't realized how things would go with something THAT
attractive and her child not wanting to share.

-pam

On Oct 17, 2005, at 6:44 AM, Kathleen Whitfield wrote:

> I brought up the example of my daughter having trouble letting other
> children ride her scooter at the park *one time.* Usually, it
> wasn't an
> issue and other children did ride it. There was some weird dynamic
> going on
> that one day and it wasn't a "friends sharing the scooter"
> situation. I
> don't know precisely what started it, but, as I said, it hadn't been a
> problem before and I have some suspicions. And the scooter has come
> to park
> day since with no apparent issues.
>
> I actually agree with you -- park day toys will be something that
> we bring
> for everyone's enjoyment.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Quinlon's Mommy

I would also like to clarify. I was not upset with the
Mom or the child for not sharing. My son had been
upset so I took him for a walk around the pond and we
discussed/remembered times when he and sometimes his
friends didn't want to share and how it feels on both
sides of the equation. He then decided to play in a
different area where he couldn't see the car.

My comment was at the end of my post on sharing. I was
wondering why days later I was still stuck on the
incident.

It turned out to be the mixed messages I had grown up
with about sharing. Which I've been sorting out over
the weekend. As well as how that translates to me
being an example to my children and how I react to
their sharing or not.

Also, my son really wanted to play with that little
boy but he couldn't get past the car to play with him.
I felt sad for both of them. I would really like to
see them at the park again.

Love and Laughter,
Amy

....
>I was referring to the original
> question asked by
> Amy - which was about someone at our park day whose
> child brought a
> "pedal-car" to the park and then didn't let other
> kids ride it. This
> was a person who had never been to our park day
> before...
> -pam

> > I brought up the example of my daughter having
> trouble letting other
> > children ride her scooter at the park *one time.*



Love and Laughter,
Amy
snugglebugg.com

Wife to Casey
Mom to Quinlon
and Morgan Moira

Cleaning and cooking can wait for tomorrow,
For babies grow up, I've learned, to my sorrow.
So quiet down, cobwebs, dust, go to sleep.
I'm rocking my baby, and babies don't keep.




__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

Julie

Sandra wrote:
<< Twenty kids needed to share one see-saw (before they were declared to
dangerous to exist) and take turns on the swings, and all that.>>

Oh my! A moment of shock and mourning as the realization descends on me
that there are no see-saws left! I hadn't even thought of the sinister side
of those bright, colorful plastic playgrounds.

Julie in NY