Re: Unschooling or Eclectic? Math issu
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> Unschooling at our house happens on days when I simply cannot sit with theLaraine,
> children for one reason or another. Then they do what they want (other
> than watch TV). It's beginning to sound like I don't unschool at all
> doesn't it?
>
Maybe you'll decide unschooling isn't for your family and that's okay.
We're just letting you know how it works for us. Foundations can be
important, but what I have discovered is that if the foundation is
missing, my son can go back and pick it up very quickly because he
needs it and he wants it. Last year he was really enjoying physics.
Then it got to the point where he realized he needed to back up a
little bit, and work on some math to move on. He even came to me
and asked me to refresh his memory about dividing decimals because he
needed it. He had been "taught" that earlier, but didn't remember
it because he wasn't using it. When I was "teaching" him math, I
always had to go over the lesson first, because even though we were
only doing 6th grade level math, I had forgotten most of it - how to
multiply and divide fractions, etc.
Now, he's starting to talk about going to college and future career
possibilities. We absolutely discuss what foundation will be
necessary for those goals. In the end though, it will be his choice
what he does. We talk about things like foreign language - how it
can be easier to learn the younger you are and how some colleges
require it. We talk about how even though he dislikes writing,
there's not a college I know of where he won't be expected to write
competently and even take some composition type classes. My point is
that we make the case for foundation and encourage him to pursue his
goals. We just don't force it. He owns it. It's his life and his
education. Lastly, we try to instill the sense that it's never too
late. How many adults think that they can't learn an instrument or
go back to college - It's too late. It's never to late to change and
learn.
Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> I think it's hard for me, because of the way I was taught in public school andIsn't that the truth? I think it's hard for all of us who were
> at home, to watch my son learn in a non-linear way because it seems so
> haphazard...that he's not going to learn everything about a subject (but does
> he need to?). That's more my problem than his. Of course, I suppose it's hard
> to know what a person is learning because you can't actually see knowledge.
>
raised in ps to observe "learning in disarray," so to speak. We
want it to be neat and orderly. Even though we know that it didn't
work for some of us, it's so hard to let go of. And, if it did
work for us, it's even harder to let it go. I had to accept early
on in our homeschooling adventure that my son's learning style is
completely different from mine. When dh was working on his masters,
he took a course in learning styles, and was able to help here.
That's why unschooling was such a good option for us. I'm the
primary homeschooling parent and yet my learning style is a polar
opposite. Trying to "teach" him was never going to work because I
couldn't even approach the subject in the manner that made the most
sense for him. Imagine how exaggerated this becomes in a ps class of
25.
Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> How do you get the answer to 3x9? Do you automatically spit out 27 becauseYES BILLY!!! You think just like Kyle. When he first told me that
> you memorized the multiplication tables? How many people (like me) think of
> the problem as 3x10 then deduct 3 (making the problem 3x10-3x1 because 9 is
> 1 less than 10). It seems less efficient, but it works better for some
> people.
>
this is how he multiplies, I couldn't believe it. As a die-hard
memorizer of multiplication tables, it seemed crazy. Now, I see
how much it help as you go further up the scale.
Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...
Jane E.
Dear Laraine,
My ds is 15. He has always struggled with math, until I let go and let him
choose what he wanted to do and how long her wanted to do it. His
understanding of concepts and foundations began to improve tremendously.
Last year, his friends were starting algebra in school and he was anxious to
do algebra also. I told him I thought he would have a difficult time with
algebra unless he really nailed down working with fractions, decimals and
percents, and offered to work with him. Unfortunately, my sit-down school
time is very limited these days, and right away we both saw he was going to
need a more structured program in order to work on his own. I ordered a set
of self-teaching workbooks, he flew through them, and is very excited about
beginning algebra now.
My own algebra story is also enlightening. I struggled bitterly with
algebra (and most math) in high school, and avoided it like the plague in
college. When I was 40, I decided to go to nursing school, and had to take
entrance exams. I borrowed a Saxon Algebra book from one of my
homeschooling friends, and spent about 6 weeks reviewing. And ya know what?
It was kinda fun! Not lots of fun, but it was like doing crossword puzzles.
But who (except my mother) spends several hours a day, five days a week,
nine months of the year, doing crossword puzzles? (By the way, I did
extremely well on those entrance exams, way better than a math idiot like
myself could be expected to do).
But Laraine, these are anecdotes, and I think you want more research-based
global answers. I don't know that there are any, and homeschooling is one
area where every family has to find out what works comfortably for them. If
unschooling worries you, makes you feel insecure about giving your children
the best you can, then it is not working for you. But I am sure that you
are an insightful enough mother to see what is working best for your
children and change your approaches when you need to. Don't base your
homeschooling or unschooling decisions on what works for others, only on
what works best for your family.
Now here is some advice, that I have just advised you to ignore ;-D. Don't
worry about time frames. Don't fall into the trap of thinking, "Oh, my
gosh, this child is 10 and doesn't know how to multiply!" Or "We have been
using this book, and the children don't seem to know any more about
fractions than they did 3 months ago." Change the approach or the program,
but don't agonize over the wasted time.
Now a word about foundations. It seems to me, and forgive me if I am
misreading you, that you are concerned about the foundations for math much
more than for English, science or history. Is this because you yourself
find math more difficult? You seem to think that the immersion method of
learning will work for the others, but not for math. But I believe that
research in education methodology has shown that immersion in ANY subject
area works well. (Too bad most educational institutions ignore this).
Perhaps it would be a good idea to think about whether it is your own
discomfort with math that is driving you to mistrust an unschooling
approach.
Jane
My ds is 15. He has always struggled with math, until I let go and let him
choose what he wanted to do and how long her wanted to do it. His
understanding of concepts and foundations began to improve tremendously.
Last year, his friends were starting algebra in school and he was anxious to
do algebra also. I told him I thought he would have a difficult time with
algebra unless he really nailed down working with fractions, decimals and
percents, and offered to work with him. Unfortunately, my sit-down school
time is very limited these days, and right away we both saw he was going to
need a more structured program in order to work on his own. I ordered a set
of self-teaching workbooks, he flew through them, and is very excited about
beginning algebra now.
My own algebra story is also enlightening. I struggled bitterly with
algebra (and most math) in high school, and avoided it like the plague in
college. When I was 40, I decided to go to nursing school, and had to take
entrance exams. I borrowed a Saxon Algebra book from one of my
homeschooling friends, and spent about 6 weeks reviewing. And ya know what?
It was kinda fun! Not lots of fun, but it was like doing crossword puzzles.
But who (except my mother) spends several hours a day, five days a week,
nine months of the year, doing crossword puzzles? (By the way, I did
extremely well on those entrance exams, way better than a math idiot like
myself could be expected to do).
But Laraine, these are anecdotes, and I think you want more research-based
global answers. I don't know that there are any, and homeschooling is one
area where every family has to find out what works comfortably for them. If
unschooling worries you, makes you feel insecure about giving your children
the best you can, then it is not working for you. But I am sure that you
are an insightful enough mother to see what is working best for your
children and change your approaches when you need to. Don't base your
homeschooling or unschooling decisions on what works for others, only on
what works best for your family.
Now here is some advice, that I have just advised you to ignore ;-D. Don't
worry about time frames. Don't fall into the trap of thinking, "Oh, my
gosh, this child is 10 and doesn't know how to multiply!" Or "We have been
using this book, and the children don't seem to know any more about
fractions than they did 3 months ago." Change the approach or the program,
but don't agonize over the wasted time.
Now a word about foundations. It seems to me, and forgive me if I am
misreading you, that you are concerned about the foundations for math much
more than for English, science or history. Is this because you yourself
find math more difficult? You seem to think that the immersion method of
learning will work for the others, but not for math. But I believe that
research in education methodology has shown that immersion in ANY subject
area works well. (Too bad most educational institutions ignore this).
Perhaps it would be a good idea to think about whether it is your own
discomfort with math that is driving you to mistrust an unschooling
approach.
Jane
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> From: "Jane E." <jaelise@...>I had to chuckle at your reference to crossword puzzles because my
> It was kinda fun! Not lots of fun, but it was like doing crossword puzzles.
> But who (except my mother) spends several hours a day, five days a week,
> nine months of the year, doing crossword puzzles? (By the way, I did
> extremely well on those entrance exams, way better than a math idiot like
> myself could be expected to do).
>
mom loves them to. We get in crossword puzzle kicks around here
every once in awhile. I once heard a tape of a speech by Donna
Nichols-White - unschooler and publisher of the Drinking Gourd.
She knew of someone who attributed her high scores on the verbal
portion of the SATs to doing the New York Times Crossword Puzzle.
Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> Hope you all can untangle my meaning here.I know exactly what you mean. More of that "real world" math.
>
Seeing math as it pertains to something as interesting as science
really works with my son.
Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> You reminded me that I never understood fractions as well as when I workedExactly! Dh has college students that have done very well in high
> at a fabric store. By measuring and cutting fabric and trim I could
> visually see what fractions looked like and could more easily manipulate
> them in my head. The same with buying our house: I never had a better grasp
> on geometry than when I had to figure out lot sizes and areas, and cost per
> square foot. It was much more understandable when it dealt with practical
> situations.
>
school math. They can do trig, calculus, etc. Then he asks them to
find the volume of a circular bin and they're lost. They want to
know what the formula is. He asks them where they think they can
find the formula. He gets blank stares. They are so used to
plugging given numbers into formulas that they can't make any
practical connection. Hopefully that's something that they finally
get in his class, but it's very frustrating for many of them.
Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/99 7:57:15 AM, jagwirtz@... writes:
<<Last year he was really enjoying physics.
Then it got to the point where he realized he needed to back up a
little bit, and work on some math to move on. He even came to me
and asked me to refresh his memory about dividing decimals because he
needed it. He had been "taught" that earlier, but didn't remember
it because he wasn't using it.>>
I really like the idea of integrating math learning into the sciences that
use the math. I'm sure I would have understood calculus much better, if it
hadn't been taught separated from physics. (I did take them both in the same
year, but they really weren't tied together.) I don't see much sense in
doing a bunch of math problems out of context. I like the way that science
provides a context.
Hope you all can untangle my meaning here.
Betsy
<<Last year he was really enjoying physics.
Then it got to the point where he realized he needed to back up a
little bit, and work on some math to move on. He even came to me
and asked me to refresh his memory about dividing decimals because he
needed it. He had been "taught" that earlier, but didn't remember
it because he wasn't using it.>>
I really like the idea of integrating math learning into the sciences that
use the math. I'm sure I would have understood calculus much better, if it
hadn't been taught separated from physics. (I did take them both in the same
year, but they really weren't tied together.) I don't see much sense in
doing a bunch of math problems out of context. I like the way that science
provides a context.
Hope you all can untangle my meaning here.
Betsy
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> Teresa, I have had great success with the Miquon math materials. TheI've know quite a few unschoolers that really like Miquon. We
> cuisennaire rods are so much fun to build and play with that I can slip
> lessons in with no problem and the workbooks are very non-threatening. I just
>
started unschooling too late to take advantage of them, but we have
found some other things we enjoy. First off - logic puzzles - and I
won't even confess that I didn't know these were math when we started
unschooling. Second, there's a book called Family Math and now two
new ones - one geared to younger kids and one to older. These
involve all kinds of math games and experiments that the whole
family can do. For more advanced math, we are enjoying the Harold
Jacobs, Algebra, Geometry and Mathematics, A Human Endeavor books.
Some unschoolers really like the Key To Series because they are
workbooks that are very self-directed. There are many other fun type
math books out there - Marilyn Burns writes some like, Math for
Smarty Pants. We like the reader's digest - How Math Works........
The list goes on and I've already been way too prolific this weekend.
Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/99 11:33:55 AM EST, jaelise@... writes:
<< Perhaps it would be a good idea to think about whether it is your own
discomfort with math that is driving you to mistrust an unschooling
approach. >>
Jane, honey!
I think you have hit the nail on the head, at least for me! Plus the fact
that I don't KNOW any other approach. I am trying. The games and stuff that
everyone talks about, real math, counting plates and silverware, ect. That
was fine 3 years ago, but not now. I am out of other math ideas, so find
myself falling back on Saxon. : ( But, keep talkin, I'm listening : )
Congrats on Nursing school. I went back and got my RN when I was in my early
30's . Had never taken SATs, cause they were unheard of in my high school
days. And, you are right. I failed math and chemistry in high school, but,
when I needed it, and saw the need for it in my nursing, I could apply myself
and buckle down and study and learn, cause I saw the connection to something
I wanted to do. It wasn't algebra, or trig, but nursing math, where you
learn the formula for dosage, and, even Thu I haven't practiced in 12 years,
I can still do the math!
Teresa, ( beginning to see some light!!)
<< Perhaps it would be a good idea to think about whether it is your own
discomfort with math that is driving you to mistrust an unschooling
approach. >>
Jane, honey!
I think you have hit the nail on the head, at least for me! Plus the fact
that I don't KNOW any other approach. I am trying. The games and stuff that
everyone talks about, real math, counting plates and silverware, ect. That
was fine 3 years ago, but not now. I am out of other math ideas, so find
myself falling back on Saxon. : ( But, keep talkin, I'm listening : )
Congrats on Nursing school. I went back and got my RN when I was in my early
30's . Had never taken SATs, cause they were unheard of in my high school
days. And, you are right. I failed math and chemistry in high school, but,
when I needed it, and saw the need for it in my nursing, I could apply myself
and buckle down and study and learn, cause I saw the connection to something
I wanted to do. It wasn't algebra, or trig, but nursing math, where you
learn the formula for dosage, and, even Thu I haven't practiced in 12 years,
I can still do the math!
Teresa, ( beginning to see some light!!)
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/99 8:50:32 PM EST, Hsmotgo@... writes:
<< he games and stuff that
everyone talks about, real math, counting plates and silverware, ect. That
was fine 3 years ago, but not now. I am out of other math ideas, so find
myself falling back on Saxon. : ( But, keep talkin, I'm listening : )
cuisennaire rods are so much fun to build and play with that I can slip
lessons in with no problem and the workbooks are very non-threatening. I just
picked up the idea book at a book sale and the kids took it from me and went
to work! So, there's my two cents on that! Lori in TX
<< he games and stuff that
everyone talks about, real math, counting plates and silverware, ect. That
was fine 3 years ago, but not now. I am out of other math ideas, so find
myself falling back on Saxon. : ( But, keep talkin, I'm listening : )
>>Teresa, I have had great success with the Miquon math materials. The
cuisennaire rods are so much fun to build and play with that I can slip
lessons in with no problem and the workbooks are very non-threatening. I just
picked up the idea book at a book sale and the kids took it from me and went
to work! So, there's my two cents on that! Lori in TX
Jane E.
Well, Teresa, med math *is* algebra. Pretty basic, beginning algebra, but
algebra nevertheless. Pediatric dosages and IVs are less basic. All those
drops per minute (shudder). You may memorize the formula, but you need to
know how to apply it. So there we are with a great example of Real Math.
If you sit down and really examine the math textbooks, you will see that
after children have learned the basic operations and how to work with
decimals and fractions (usually by the end of fourth grade), the next few
years are review, review review, with bigger numbers every year, and a few
frills, like probability and pre-algebra thrown in. My opinion is, once
again, that what a fifth grader may spend a week working on, an eighth
grader will grasp in an afternoon. So why sweat your fifth grader and
yourself through the misery?
Relax, put on some good music, and play one of those math games! Or double
a recipe, or measure the living room to see if you can fit a new couch in.
Then figure out how long it would take to pay for the couch!
Jane
algebra nevertheless. Pediatric dosages and IVs are less basic. All those
drops per minute (shudder). You may memorize the formula, but you need to
know how to apply it. So there we are with a great example of Real Math.
If you sit down and really examine the math textbooks, you will see that
after children have learned the basic operations and how to work with
decimals and fractions (usually by the end of fourth grade), the next few
years are review, review review, with bigger numbers every year, and a few
frills, like probability and pre-algebra thrown in. My opinion is, once
again, that what a fifth grader may spend a week working on, an eighth
grader will grasp in an afternoon. So why sweat your fifth grader and
yourself through the misery?
Relax, put on some good music, and play one of those math games! Or double
a recipe, or measure the living room to see if you can fit a new couch in.
Then figure out how long it would take to pay for the couch!
Jane
>It wasn't algebra, or trig, but nursing math, where youyears,
> learn the formula for dosage, and, even Thu I haven't practiced in 12
> I can still do the math!
>
> Teresa, ( beginning to see some light!!)
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/99 10:10:05 PM EST, RRAINENJ@... writes:
<< picked up the idea book at a book sale and the kids took it from me and
went
to work! So, there's my two cents on that! Lori in TX >>
Lori, thanks, I will look into that
Teresa
<< picked up the idea book at a book sale and the kids took it from me and
went
to work! So, there's my two cents on that! Lori in TX >>
Lori, thanks, I will look into that
Teresa
The O'Donnells
>Perhaps it would be a good idea to think about whether it is your ownJane,
>discomfort with math that is driving you to mistrust an unschooling
>approach.
>
>Jane
Funny you said it this way. Over the weekend I've given it a lot of
thought and oddly enough I really enjoy math - love it in fact. Never got
into the higher maths much but did well at any that I attempted. But my
dear Dad was such a pusher on math that to him that was all there was that
was needed in life! While I disagree with him, I know that math is what
made all the difference in his life. So he PUSHED it HARD with me as I was
growing up. I'm starting to look at this and attempting to decide if it
has anything to do with my attitudes about math. Also, dh is a structure
freak! He'd probably lose it if he really knew how flexible I am with the
girls. Math is why I consider myself eclectic in approach. I can let go
of just about anything else but math....hmmmm a little of my Dad in me
perhaps.
Thanks all for your comments, I've learned a lot - much of which I had
actually not thought of before. DD is an interesting kid. On one hand she
seems to want to flit through subjects (no depth - I drag her through the
park) and yet she will complain that she didn't feel like we had
"completed" any specific subject (thus I feel like I didn't drag her
through the park enough!) :o) I think both she and I are going to need
some more deschooling to overcome a lot of this stuff. I can really see
how my youngest dd could unschool without a hitch - but the older one wants
direction while bulking at it. Sigh. Don't give up on me - I'm still
learning myself - this is only year 2 for us as hsers!
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> Thanks all for your comments, I've learned a lot - much of which I hadLaraine,
> actually not thought of before. DD is an interesting kid. On one hand she
> seems to want to flit through subjects (no depth - I drag her through the
> park) and yet she will complain that she didn't feel like we had
> "completed" any specific subject (thus I feel like I didn't drag her
> through the park enough!) :o) I think both she and I are going to need
> some more deschooling to overcome a lot of this stuff. I can really see
> how my youngest dd could unschool without a hitch - but the older one wants
> direction while bulking at it. Sigh. Don't give up on me - I'm still
> learning myself - this is only year 2 for us as hsers!
>
I personally think it's wonderful - the amount of thought you're
giving this - the willingness you have to learn. Assuming your
daughters have inherited that willingness - you'll be fine! I had to
laugh at what you said about your dh and structure. I think it was
easier for my dh to accept unschooling than it was for me for one
simple reason - control!! I'm definitely more of a controlling
person. I think that's why with unschooling, I have to go all the
way. I have to completely relinqish my control over my kids
education. Otherwise, I'm in their face. It's been really hard for
me, but I've grown a lot because of it.
Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...