[email protected]

Below is an e-mail that I received from a client of mine when I told her that
I was unschooling my child. She was talking about the problems her daughter
is having in school and homework etc and I said I couldn't help her with that
because I thought homework was unnecessary. In the real world your boss
doesn't herd you altogether at the end of the day and assign you something to
do overnight that you are going to be graded on and compared to your
co-workers.

Please read and help me understand where this person is coming from and how
to respond.

Thanks
Dawn


"Sorry you had such a bad school experience. I believe that teachers have an
obligation to make their curriculum engaging and relevant to their students,
as well as not waste their time with unnecessary of rote memorization.
However, let me point out some of the potential pitfalls of allowing learning
to be totally child-driven.

Does a spell-checker eliminate the need for a child learning to spell
(definately a rote memorization task for English-speakers)? I ask job
applicants to fill out an application by hand. I want to know if their
handwriting is legible and whether they can follow simple directions. People
with spelling problems will only be considered if they have experience in the
field and good references as they come across as borderline illiterate.

Certainly a person can use calculators to do computations and texts to look
up how to solve mathematical problems. But a person who cannot do a simple
problem quickly as an adult is mathematically illiterate. For example, an
adult should be able to figure out about how much paint to order to paint the
outside of a house, given the number of square feet a gallon should cover and
the ability to measure off the house. Even if you don't recall the exact
formula for finding the surface area of a triangle or rectangle, a person who
has taken geometry at least knows where to find the information quickly.

Most of mankind has always been culturally illiterate, and certainly people
do just fine. But culturally educated people "get" the references made by
others. We KNOW "for whom the bell tolls." Is there a huge value to
memorizing this 17th century poem? Not unless you're going to recite it to an
audience. Should every kid have read it before they graduate high school in
America (and the rest of the English-speaking world)? My vote is yes. Should
kids reading it for the first time today discuss it in the context of the
events of last week? Certainly!!! How is it a kid decides on his own to study
this particular poem out of millions published in the English language? With
the help of an educated adult, usually a teacher.

Ultimately, all learning is self-driven, whether you're in a classroom or
not. The school systems have the task of turning out people proficient enough
in English and mathematics to effectively solve daily problems in the
business world and home life. Additionally, children need to be culturally
educated enough to understand our world, some of its history and intellectual
heritage, and the basics of the main scientific principles underpinning
modern life. The functioning of society relies on us having some amount of
common, general knowledge. (I like the thought of the Core Knowledge
curriculum group.) Unfortunately, the government sees the results of
standardized testing as the significant measure of success.

In short (ha!), I agree there are plenty of people who do well in life
without formal training. However, I have a great deal of respect for those
who pursue higher education. My answer to Mr. Shaw is that he achieved
literary success BECAUSE he received sufficient training in the drudgery of
English grammar and spelling so that he was then able to use these tools, in
concert with his innate talent, to generate his works."


^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dawn Falbe
Personal Development Coach
Relocational Astrologer
(520) 579-2646
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Path of Least Resistance is Inside of You
www.astrologerdawn.com
Enlightening women on how to live their Soul Purpose

"The people who get on in this world
are people who get up and look for the
circumstances they want, and,
if they can't find them, make them." - George Bernard Shaw

"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school."-George
Bernard Shaw





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/19/01 6:44:48 AM, NumoAstro@... writes:

<< We KNOW "for whom the bell tolls." Is there a huge value to
memorizing this 17th century poem? Not unless you're going to recite it to an
audience. Should every kid have read it before they graduate high school in
America (and the rest of the English-speaking world)? My vote is yes. >>

I was never "taught" that poem, I have an English degree, and I taught, and I
haven't read the whole thing. I know the reference, and the context, but
from cultural clues and quotation.

There is SO much literature that there is not and can never be one set of
what people need to know.

<<How is it a kid decides on his own to study
this particular poem out of millions published in the English language? >>

I guess I'm living proof that some people can be high-functioning English
users without that poem! <g>

<<Unfortunately, the government sees the results of
standardized testing as the significant measure of success.
>>

You might tell her that unfortunately, the government and the schools don't
see the crippling effects of school as significant problems or as significant
blocks to natural learning, and that results in a lot of emotionally stunted
adults who do NOT like poetry or learning or math or writing except what they
need to fill in job applications.

You could just not respond at all to her, too, and that wouldn't hurt her.

Sandra

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Pam Hartley

> Does a spell-checker eliminate the need for a child learning to spell
> (definately a rote memorization task for English-speakers)? I ask job
> applicants to fill out an application by hand. I want to know if their
> handwriting is legible and whether they can follow simple directions. People
> with spelling problems will only be considered if they have experience in the
> field and good references as they come across as borderline illiterate.

This is one company's requirement. My husband (schooled, by the way, and a
high school graduate) is a dreadful speller. He had no problem getting jobs
in his field (construction estimating, project management, drafting)
throughout his pre-bookselling career. In some jobs, in some companies, a
spelling error on a application may be a factor. In many, it is not. My
husband's bosses cared whether he knew how to estimate the costs of a job
and whether he could manage sub-contractors and bring a job in on cost and
on time, not whether he knew to spell whether.

The world is full of dreadful, schooled spellers who are working productive
lives. If spelling well IS a criteria for a particular job (and I can't
think of many offhand that wouldn't work with spell-checking -- even a vice
president of the U.S. can misspell "potato". :)

> Certainly a person can use calculators to do computations and texts to look
> up how to solve mathematical problems. But a person who cannot do a simple
> problem quickly as an adult is mathematically illiterate. For example, an
> adult should be able to figure out about how much paint to order to paint the
> outside of a house, given the number of square feet a gallon should cover and
> the ability to measure off the house. Even if you don't recall the exact
> formula for finding the surface area of a triangle or rectangle, a person who
> has taken geometry at least knows where to find the information quickly.

I would have not the world's first idea of how to calculate how much paint
was needed to paint my house. None. My husband would, but let's say he
didn't: the guys at the paint store do. My nephew does. I don't need to know
everything. I am great with basic arithmetic (adding, subtracting,
multiplying, dividing) but I would have no more idea of where to find quick
information on geometrical formulas than I would how to find the Holy Grail
(and, further, I'd have a lot less interest <g>). I was schooled, am 35
years old, and get through my days anyway. Most people don't even know that
I am by this person's definition "mathematically illiterate". If they knew,
most people wouldn't care -- the parents in my girl scout troop would mostly
care that I'm good at crafts and talking to their daughters; my dog training
friends would mostly care that I could give a good critique of what I could
see their dog doing from MY angle instead of theirs; my homeschooling
friends would care that I could talk on the phone to worried new
homeschoolers and help them find resources to make them more confident; my
family would care that I have extremely good instincts for finding books for
us to sell.

> Most of mankind has always been culturally illiterate, and certainly people
> do just fine. But culturally educated people "get" the references made by
> others. We KNOW "for whom the bell tolls." Is there a huge value to
> memorizing this 17th century poem? Not unless you're going to recite it to an
> audience. Should every kid have read it before they graduate high school in
> America (and the rest of the English-speaking world)? My vote is yes. Should
> kids reading it for the first time today discuss it in the context of the
> events of last week? Certainly!!! How is it a kid decides on his own to study
> this particular poem out of millions published in the English language? With
> the help of an educated adult, usually a teacher.

Culture is what the culture makes, not a few so-called classics hand-picked
by a few so-called experts. You want culturally literate? Know who Dexter
and his Lab are when you're talking to my 6 year old. You don't know a
muggle from a wizard? You won't last a day in a group of most 12 year olds.

Or let's take my generation. "Your mission, should you decide to accept"
will get a laugh in a room of most adults over 30 or so. That's cultural
literacy.

One particular 17th century poem is not more important across the board to
every human than any other poem, song, lyric, or ditty. The ideas put forth
in one particular poem are not completely unique to human knowledge: the
lesson in the bell tolling can be found from any number of other sources:
fact, fiction, experience, conversation.

Nobody knows everything. Nobody can know everything. Reading 17th century
poetry is not inherently more or less important than learning to bake a
decent cake, drive a nail, memorize a table of molds and mildews, sing every
song in the musical The Chorus Line, train a dog, drive a car, play the
banjo, speak German, know vast quantities of Disney trivia.

One size does not fit all.

>
> Ultimately, all learning is self-driven, whether you're in a classroom or
> not. The school systems have the task of turning out people proficient enough
> in English and mathematics to effectively solve daily problems in the
> business world and home life. Additionally, children need to be culturally
> educated enough to understand our world, some of its history and intellectual
> heritage, and the basics of the main scientific principles underpinning
> modern life. The functioning of society relies on us having some amount of
> common, general knowledge. (I like the thought of the Core Knowledge
> curriculum group.) Unfortunately, the government sees the results of
> standardized testing as the significant measure of success.
>
> In short (ha!), I agree there are plenty of people who do well in life
> without formal training. However, I have a great deal of respect for those
> who pursue higher education. My answer to Mr. Shaw is that he achieved
> literary success BECAUSE he received sufficient training in the drudgery of
> English grammar and spelling so that he was then able to use these tools, in
> concert with his innate talent, to generate his works."

And Mark Twain said, "I never let my schooling interfere with my education."
So Mr. Shaw may have been right for him, but that doesn't mean he was right
for every person. And unschooling would allow Mr. Shaw or Mr. Twain to
pursue their own path.

Pam

Dawn

Sandra:

This is not my writing or quote.

Dawn


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/19/01 6:44:48 AM, NumoAstro@a... writes:
>
> << We KNOW "for whom the bell tolls." Is there a huge value to
> memorizing this 17th century poem? Not unless you're going to
recite it to an
> audience. Should every kid have read it before they graduate high
school in
> America (and the rest of the English-speaking world)? My vote is
yes. >>
>
> I was never "taught" that poem, I have an English degree, and I
taught, and I
> haven't read the whole thing. I know the reference, and the
context, but
> from cultural clues and quotation.
>
> There is SO much literature that there is not and can never be one
set of
> what people need to know.
>
> <<How is it a kid decides on his own to study
> this particular poem out of millions published in the English
language? >>
>
> I guess I'm living proof that some people can be high-functioning
English
> users without that poem! <g>
>
> <<Unfortunately, the government sees the results of
> standardized testing as the significant measure of success.
> >>
>
> You might tell her that unfortunately, the government and the
schools don't
> see the crippling effects of school as significant problems or as
significant
> blocks to natural learning, and that results in a lot of
emotionally stunted
> adults who do NOT like poetry or learning or math or writing except
what they
> need to fill in job applications.
>
> You could just not respond at all to her, too, and that wouldn't
hurt her.
>
> Sandra
>
> Sandra
>
> "Everything counts."
> http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
> http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Dawn

Oops Sandra sorry... my client wrote this and I just realized it as
soon as I hit the send button... Sorry

Dawn

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/19/01 6:44:48 AM, NumoAstro@a... writes:
>
> << We KNOW "for whom the bell tolls." Is there a huge value to
> memorizing this 17th century poem? Not unless you're going to
recite it to an
> audience. Should every kid have read it before they graduate high
school in
> America (and the rest of the English-speaking world)? My vote is
yes. >>
>
> I was never "taught" that poem, I have an English degree, and I
taught, and I
> haven't read the whole thing. I know the reference, and the
context, but
> from cultural clues and quotation.
>
> There is SO much literature that there is not and can never be one
set of
> what people need to know.
>
> <<How is it a kid decides on his own to study
> this particular poem out of millions published in the English
language? >>
>
> I guess I'm living proof that some people can be high-functioning
English
> users without that poem! <g>
>
> <<Unfortunately, the government sees the results of
> standardized testing as the significant measure of success.
> >>
>
> You might tell her that unfortunately, the government and the
schools don't
> see the crippling effects of school as significant problems or as
significant
> blocks to natural learning, and that results in a lot of
emotionally stunted
> adults who do NOT like poetry or learning or math or writing except
what they
> need to fill in job applications.
>
> You could just not respond at all to her, too, and that wouldn't
hurt her.
>
> Sandra
>
> Sandra
>
> "Everything counts."
> http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
> http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Dawn

Oops Sandra sorry... my client wrote this and I just realized it as
soon as I hit the send button... Sorry

Dawn

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/19/01 6:44:48 AM, NumoAstro@a... writes:
>
> << We KNOW "for whom the bell tolls." Is there a huge value to
> memorizing this 17th century poem? Not unless you're going to
recite it to an
> audience. Should every kid have read it before they graduate high
school in
> America (and the rest of the English-speaking world)? My vote is
yes. >>
>
> I was never "taught" that poem, I have an English degree, and I
taught, and I
> haven't read the whole thing. I know the reference, and the
context, but
> from cultural clues and quotation.
>
> There is SO much literature that there is not and can never be one
set of
> what people need to know.
>
> <<How is it a kid decides on his own to study
> this particular poem out of millions published in the English
language? >>
>
> I guess I'm living proof that some people can be high-functioning
English
> users without that poem! <g>
>
> <<Unfortunately, the government sees the results of
> standardized testing as the significant measure of success.
> >>
>
> You might tell her that unfortunately, the government and the
schools don't
> see the crippling effects of school as significant problems or as
significant
> blocks to natural learning, and that results in a lot of
emotionally stunted
> adults who do NOT like poetry or learning or math or writing except
what they
> need to fill in job applications.
>
> You could just not respond at all to her, too, and that wouldn't
hurt her.
>
> Sandra
>
> Sandra
>
> "Everything counts."
> http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
> http://expage.com/SandraDodd

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/19/01 10:05:10 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
NumoAstro@... writes:


>
> Sandra:
>
> This is not my writing or quote.
>
>

Sorry--I hit reply somewhere, and the mailer appended the quote. Often I
delete those, and sometimes I forget, and I don't know how it got left or why
it was wrong. Sorry.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>
>"Sorry you had such a bad school experience. I believe that teachers have an
>obligation to make their curriculum engaging and relevant to their students,
>as well as not waste their time with unnecessary of rote memorization.

Would that more than a few actually *did* that.

>However, let me point out some of the potential pitfalls of allowing learning
>to be totally child-driven.
>
>Does a spell-checker eliminate the need for a child learning to spell
>(definately a rote memorization task for English-speakers)? I ask job
>applicants to fill out an application by hand. I want to know if their
>handwriting is legible and whether they can follow simple directions. People
>with spelling problems will only be considered if they have experience in the
>field and good references as they come across as borderline illiterate.

She's made a couple of assumptions here that are incorrect. One, that
learning spelling is always a rote memorization task. Not true for at
least many kids. And two, that people will only learn to spell if they go
to school. Besides that one being wrong, just look at the spelling of
people who have been through the system, including many who graduated from
university.


>Certainly a person can use calculators to do computations and texts to look
>up how to solve mathematical problems. But a person who cannot do a simple
>problem quickly as an adult is mathematically illiterate. For example, an
>adult should be able to figure out about how much paint to order to paint the
>outside of a house, given the number of square feet a gallon should cover and
>the ability to measure off the house. Even if you don't recall the exact
>formula for finding the surface area of a triangle or rectangle, a person who
>has taken geometry at least knows where to find the information quickly.

Again, graduating from high school doesn't guarantee that people will be
able to do this, nor is it true that they won't be able to learn it when
they have a need to know it.


>Most of mankind has always been culturally illiterate, and certainly people
>do just fine.

I wonder what she means by culturally illiterate. Most people in most
cultures are literate in *their* culture. Maybe she means Western culture
is the only one worth being literate in. But which Western culture? Most
North Americans are literate in their culture.....the TV/media/consumer
culture.

>But culturally educated people "get" the references made by
>others. We KNOW "for whom the bell tolls." Is there a huge value to
>memorizing this 17th century poem? Not unless you're going to recite it to an
>audience. Should every kid have read it before they graduate high school in
>America (and the rest of the English-speaking world)? My vote is yes. Should
>kids reading it for the first time today discuss it in the context of the
>events of last week? Certainly!!! How is it a kid decides on his own to study
>this particular poem out of millions published in the English language? With
>the help of an educated adult, usually a teacher.

So I can't understand what happened last week because I don't remember "for
whom the bell tolls"? Because I certainly knew it once. Since school just
exercised my short-term memory, it didn't stick with me. Obviously it
wasn't relevant enough to me at the time to get into my long-term memory.


>Ultimately, all learning is self-driven, whether you're in a classroom or
>not. The school systems have the task of turning out people proficient enough
>in English and mathematics to effectively solve daily problems in the
>business world and home life. Additionally, children need to be culturally
>educated enough to understand our world, some of its history and intellectual
>heritage, and the basics of the main scientific principles underpinning
>modern life.

I suppose if the schools actually achieved this.....


>In short (ha!), I agree there are plenty of people who do well in life
>without formal training. However, I have a great deal of respect for those
>who pursue higher education. My answer to Mr. Shaw is that he achieved
>literary success BECAUSE he received sufficient training in the drudgery of
>English grammar and spelling so that he was then able to use these tools, in
>concert with his innate talent, to generate his works."

Or maybe he achieved literary success *in spite* of his training in the
drudgery of English grammar and spelling. Apparently Tolstoy dictated his
work, so he didn't even have to *know* spelling. As a writer, I've been
more hampered than helped by my formal schooling.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

[email protected]

Your client wrote:

<<< Does a spell-checker eliminate the need for a child learning to
spell (definately a rote memorization task for English-speakers)?>>>

I say, does even a spell-checker not guarantee that a high school or
college graduate could properly spell the word *definitely*???

Aimee

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., NumoAstro@a... wrote:
> Below is an e-mail that I received from a client of mine when I
told her that
> I was unschooling my child. She was talking about the problems her
daughter
> is having in school and homework etc and I said I couldn't help her
with that
> because I thought homework was unnecessary. In the real world your
boss
> doesn't herd you altogether at the end of the day and assign you
something to
> do overnight that you are going to be graded on and compared to
your
> co-workers.
>
> Please read and help me understand where this person is coming from
and how
> to respond.
>
> Thanks
> Dawn
>
>
> "Sorry you had such a bad school experience. I believe that
teachers have an
> obligation to make their curriculum engaging and relevant to their
students,
> as well as not waste their time with unnecessary of rote
memorization.
> However, let me point out some of the potential pitfalls of
allowing learning
> to be totally child-driven.
>
> Does a spell-checker eliminate the need for a child learning to
spell
> (definately a rote memorization task for English-speakers)? I ask
job
> applicants to fill out an application by hand. I want to know if
their
> handwriting is legible and whether they can follow simple
directions. People
> with spelling problems will only be considered if they have
experience in the
> field and good references as they come across as borderline
illiterate.
>
> Certainly a person can use calculators to do computations and texts
to look
> up how to solve mathematical problems. But a person who cannot do a
simple
> problem quickly as an adult is mathematically illiterate. For
example, an
> adult should be able to figure out about how much paint to order to
paint the
> outside of a house, given the number of square feet a gallon should
cover and
> the ability to measure off the house. Even if you don't recall the
exact
> formula for finding the surface area of a triangle or rectangle, a
person who
> has taken geometry at least knows where to find the information
quickly.
>
> Most of mankind has always been culturally illiterate, and
certainly people
> do just fine. But culturally educated people "get" the references
made by
> others. We KNOW "for whom the bell tolls." Is there a huge value to
> memorizing this 17th century poem? Not unless you're going to
recite it to an
> audience. Should every kid have read it before they graduate high
school in
> America (and the rest of the English-speaking world)? My vote is
yes. Should
> kids reading it for the first time today discuss it in the context
of the
> events of last week? Certainly!!! How is it a kid decides on his
own to study
> this particular poem out of millions published in the English
language? With
> the help of an educated adult, usually a teacher.
>
> Ultimately, all learning is self-driven, whether you're in a
classroom or
> not. The school systems have the task of turning out people
proficient enough
> in English and mathematics to effectively solve daily problems in
the
> business world and home life. Additionally, children need to be
culturally
> educated enough to understand our world, some of its history and
intellectual
> heritage, and the basics of the main scientific principles
underpinning
> modern life. The functioning of society relies on us having some
amount of
> common, general knowledge. (I like the thought of the Core
Knowledge
> curriculum group.) Unfortunately, the government sees the results
of
> standardized testing as the significant measure of success.
>
> In short (ha!), I agree there are plenty of people who do well in
life
> without formal training. However, I have a great deal of respect
for those
> who pursue higher education. My answer to Mr. Shaw is that he
achieved
> literary success BECAUSE he received sufficient training in the
drudgery of
> English grammar and spelling so that he was then able to use these
tools, in
> concert with his innate talent, to generate his works."
>
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Dawn Falbe
> Personal Development Coach
> Relocational Astrologer
> (520) 579-2646
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The Path of Least Resistance is Inside of You
> www.astrologerdawn.com
> Enlightening women on how to live their Soul Purpose
>
> "The people who get on in this world
> are people who get up and look for the
> circumstances they want, and,
> if they can't find them, make them." - George Bernard Shaw
>
> "The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in
school."-George
> Bernard Shaw
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jessi

>
>Certainly a person can use calculators to do computations and texts to look
>up how to solve mathematical problems. But a person who cannot do a simple
>problem quickly as an adult is mathematically illiterate. For example, an
>adult should be able to figure out about how much paint to order to paint the
>outside of a house, given the number of square feet a gallon should cover and
>the ability to measure off the house. Even if you don't recall the exact
>formula for finding the surface area of a triangle or rectangle, a person who
>has taken geometry at least knows where to find the information quickly.


ACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tell her thank you for letting me know that I am
mathematically illiterate! I have no clue how to do either of this! And I
went to college too! Man...boy, I sure use this stuff everyday and maybe I
need to go back to public school!

Sorry, but my Lowes or Home Depot take care of how much paint I need! LOL.

Jessi


>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.




<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**
Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve.
~ Roger Lewin ~
<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/20/2001 12:55:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
mistycal@... writes:


> Sorry, but my Lowes or Home Depot take care of how much paint I need! LOL.
>
> Jessi
>


LOL -- yep! Just like the car mechanic -- not to brag here, but I have no
clue -- I am happy/lucky to have found a mechanic I trust and he does a
wonderful job and I don't actually have to understand what it all means -- my
11 yo car is running great btw!

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jessi

>
>
>
>LOL -- yep! Just like the car mechanic -- not to brag here, but I have no
>clue -- I am happy/lucky to have found a mechanic I trust and he does a
>wonderful job and I don't actually have to understand what it all means -- my
>11 yo car is running great btw!
>
>Nance

..not what I am posting about but I am so sick of the yahoo ads every time
I try and reply! ugh...anyway...I haven't a clue as to what is under the
hood of my truck! I know that there seem to be a lot less wires than were
there on my first car...yes folks, I know they are still there, just hidden
from my view now as they like to make it look so nice in there..

Jessi



<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**
Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve.
~ Roger Lewin ~
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