star

Hello - I am unschooling in England.
I have just joined your list in the last week.
I want to say how much I am enjoying your mails.
Lisa's message is GREAT and I am saving it for future reference-thanks Lisa!
It's great to know that you are all out there, doing the best for your kids.
I am pleased to know that I will be able to get the support I need with my unschooling.
Star

When babies are little they like to suck a lot - School always sucks.

[email protected]

Hi, all!

Just wanted to introduce myself and family. I've been receiving the digest for a few days now, and boy, I feel like I've found a new home! We just started unschooling this year...the previous two years Evan (8 3/4) was in a charter school. I *forgot* about trusting my instincts once he was school age! I knew that school seemed so bizarre to me, just the concept of it, but I envisioned homeschooling as us just butting heads as I tried to "teach" him. Silly me...I didn't "teach" him to nurse, walk, talk, laugh, and be, why couldn't I see I didn't need to "teach" him to have a good life? Anyway, with experience after experience at school teaching him to not trust his feelings or his own interests, I did some investigating and found unschooling. Ahhhhhhhhhhh.......
He's enjoying things so far...the first few days (after spending the day in the woods exploring who/what lived there, learning how to look up words in the dictionary, looking up why bees are the color they are, etc., etc.), he kept saying, "Mama, we forgot to homeschool today!" I think of that as a success.
I'm at home (which means we're almost never at home!) with Evan and his brother, Seth (2 1/2). I'm currently watching another 2 1/2 y.o. named AJ. My husband, John, is a programmer to make a living and a musician to feed his soul. At one point, I was (and still may be) interested in becoming a Waldorf teacher, but my stuff is on hold for the time being. I mean, my stuff besides life lived just for today!
We live in Charlotte, NC -- where I've lived my whole life.
I'm so glad I found this list and that you guys are out there! Is there a list somewhere on the archives that lists members/where you're from?
Glad to be here,
Caren

[email protected]

Hi Caren
Welcome!
You sound a lot like I did. I was just explaining to another hs mom
today, why we started in the first place. I said that I never had
considered homeschooling because the idea of doing school at home and
what I knew that would do to our(mine and the kids) relationship, did
not appeal to me at all. Then I discovered it didn't HAVE to be that
way, and away we went!
Have fun!
Joanna


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., carenkh@a... wrote:
> Hi, all!
>
> Just wanted to introduce myself and family. I've been receiving
the digest for a few days now, and boy, I feel like I've found a new
home! We just started unschooling this year...the previous two years
Evan (8 3/4) was in a charter school. I *forgot* about trusting my
instincts once he was school age! I knew that school seemed so
bizarre to me, just the concept of it, but I envisioned homeschooling
as us just butting heads as I tried to "teach" him. Silly me...I
didn't "teach" him to nurse, walk, talk, laugh, and be, why couldn't
I see I didn't need to "teach" him to have a good life? Anyway, with
experience after experience at school teaching him to not trust his
feelings or his own interests, I did some investigating and found
unschooling. Ahhhhhhhhhhh.......
> He's enjoying things so far...the first few days (after spending
the day in the woods exploring who/what lived there, learning how to
look up words in the dictionary, looking up why bees are the color
they are, etc., etc.), he kept saying, "Mama, we forgot to homeschool
today!" I think of that as a success.
> I'm at home (which means we're almost never at home!) with Evan and
his brother, Seth (2 1/2). I'm currently watching another 2 1/2 y.o.
named AJ. My husband, John, is a programmer to make a living and a
musician to feed his soul. At one point, I was (and still may be)
interested in becoming a Waldorf teacher, but my stuff is on hold for
the time being. I mean, my stuff besides life lived just for today!
> We live in Charlotte, NC -- where I've lived my whole life.
> I'm so glad I found this list and that you guys are out there! Is
there a list somewhere on the archives that lists members/where
you're from?
> Glad to be here,
> Caren

karyn Korins-Boyd

Hi- I have been lurking here for quite a few weeks now and I finally
decided to join in. Quite a bit of what I have seen has been inspiring and
quite eduactional.

My daughters are 4.5 and 2. While I was pregnant with the first, dh and I
decided that homeschooling was the way to go. As the stay at home parent, I
have made most of the decisions and phone calls involving each kid's
activities. Not that he was out of the loop, he just wasn't able to do most
of the calls and was tired at night when he got in from work. I would bring
up things I have seen and done, left library books (mine and the girls')
around so that he would be aware of what our interests are and try to make
him feel as involved as he so desperately wanted to be, but couldn't from
having to go off to the "mines" every day.

Lately (over the past year or so), he has been getting quite a few questions
from people at his work abour when and where we are going to put the kids
into school. One day, not too long ago, he told me that when people ask he
tells them that "we are thinking seriously about looking into the
possibility of homeschooling..." HUH? this started a HUGE discussion
between us. Turns out that while I tought we were on the same page, he was
under the impression that my unschooling approach was really "just dragging
my feet until the time we need to register the kids with the local
authorities and get our asses in gear." He seems to think there was going
to be some kind of curriculum involved and we were going to have school at
home! All of a sudden, I am made aware that he can't really get behind
unschooling because he doesn't think it will work long term.

I do know my own limitations (I am a control freak) and I know that at some
point we will probably fall off the unschooling wagon because I just
couldn't let things be. I know this and am ok with the thought of coping
with that later. However, this approach has been unbelievable so far and I
couldn't imagine a better way of exploring the world with my girls right
now. My question is this- has anyone had a similar issue withh a spouse and
what ways did you approach it so as to not hurt feelings? My husband wants
to be involved but he has doubts about this philosophy. Seeing is believing
won't work because he barely sees th kids while they are awake some days!

I know that there is a lot of discussion about how to deal with people who
just don't get it (I have had some experience with that already- 99% of both
of our families are very worried for our kids) Most of the time, I say my
piece and then agree to disagree. I just cannot do this with dh...

Any advice would be appreciated

Thanks,
Kay








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Deborah Lewis

***My question is this- has anyone had a similar issue withh a spouse
and
what ways did you approach it so as to not hurt feelings? My husband
wants
to be involved but he has doubts about this philosophy. ***

What's the compulsory school age in your state? If you're lucky it
won't be until age seven and then you can agree with you're husband that
the girls will learn at home with you and school can be worried about
when the time comes.
You'd have a lot of time then to enlighten your husband about unschooling
and he'd have more time to think things over. When he's with them help
him notice what they're doing.

It IS hard to convince someone. Your family members and friends may
never come around but if you can rally support from your husband those
others won't matter much. Listen to his concerns and do what you can to
address them. Has he talked to you about specific concern? Bring them
here and get some ideas. Would he read about unschooling? Is he open
to hearing about it, at least?

Deb L, glad you de-lurked.

Fetteroll

on 2/15/03 9:38 PM, karyn Korins-Boyd at karynbkb@... wrote:

> My question is this- has anyone had a similar issue withh a spouse and
> what ways did you approach it so as to not hurt feelings? My husband wants
> to be involved but he has doubts about this philosophy. Seeing is believing
> won't work because he barely sees th kids while they are awake some days!

Well there's two issues here. You do need to take his fears and doubts
seriously. But he also needs to respect that since you're doing the research
and the doing, that your knowledge of how children learn is growing by leaps
and bounds while his is remaining relatively flat.

Is it 2 years each for a Masters and a Doctorate? Well you've had 4.5 years
;-) If you got a doctorate in English Literature, wouldn't he defer to you
greater knowledge of Chaucer?

What you need to do is gain his confidence that you are gaining knowledge
that is similar in scope. Confidence helps. Quoting things helps. Will he
read? You could send him emails or leave books open or articles you've
printed out in the bathroom.

You can't necessarily get him up to the speed that you are because you have
a lot more time to spend so he's going to have to trade off that knowledge
for confidence in you.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/2003 7:40:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> Well there's two issues here. You do need to take his fears and doubts
> seriously. But he also needs to respect that since you're doing the
> research
> and the doing, that your knowledge of how children learn is growing by
> leaps
> and bounds while his is remaining relatively flat.
>
> Is it 2 years each for a Masters and a Doctorate? Well you've had 4.5 years
> ;-) If you got a doctorate in English Literature, wouldn't he defer to you
> greater knowledge of Chaucer?
>
> What you need to do is gain his confidence that you are gaining knowledge
> that is similar in scope. Confidence helps. Quoting things helps. Will he
> read? You could send him emails or leave books open or articles you've
> printed out in the bathroom.
>
> You can't necessarily get him up to the speed that you are because you have
> a lot more time to spend so he's going to have to trade off that knowledge
> for confidence in you.

I have a husband who "got it" fairly quickly---but still, there was a time
when I was leaps and bounds ahead of him on this too.

Ben was out of town for two weeks when I did all my research on
homeschooling. I had this HUGE spiel---marked books and articles and a
rehearsed speech! I was PREPARED! He'd no sooner walked in the door when I
said, "Ben, we need to talk about homeschooling the boys." He said, "OK.
Sounds good." I kept insisting that I needed to explain how and why and who
and everything.

He finally said, "Look: I TRUST you. I can SEE you've done all this research.
And I know you would NEVER do anything to harm the children. If YOU didn't
think this was right for them and us, you wouldn't be trying to convince me."

Well, it was NICE that he trusted me---but I really wanted to use my speech! <
G>

Like Joyce said, there's got to be a level of TRUST because this is your
field of "expertise"---YOU're the one seeing them every day and seeing the
learning taking place.

>>Confidence helps. Quoting things helps. Will he read?<<

Confidence is BIG! Quotes from here and John Holt's books and the message
boards are helpful. I print out stuff all the time: I have a Book of Joyce,
of Sandra, of Zenmomma (Mary), of Anne, of Pam, of Deb that I can pull out
whenever I need a quote---not necessarily for Ben, although he likes to read
them, but for others---and for myself for inspiration. Sometimes they make it
to the refrigerator door or the bathroom mirror for a while.

Writing down what the kids did each day might help too.

Ben had his "enlightened moment" reading Mary Griffith's The Unschooling
Handbook (It's a "snappy" read; men tend to like it a lot). That's when he
"GOT" unschooling. He called me from out of town and said, "Quit making him
do ____! That's NOT UNschooling!" I had been trying to make BEN happy by
having Cam do something "schoolish" every now and then while we tried to
unschool. I said, "I was just DOing it to make YOU happy." He said, "Well,
STOP! I get it now!"

Patience helps, too! <G>

And when he *finally* gets it, you'll both wonder why/when he never DID! <G>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/15/03 10:39:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:

> It IS hard to convince someone. Your family members and friends may
> never come around but if you can rally support from your husband those
> others won't matter much. Listen to his concerns and do what you can to
> address them. Has he talked to you about specific concern? Bring them
> here and get some ideas. Would he read about unschooling? Is he open
> to hearing about it, at least?
>
>

My husband thought it all made such sense but what I did to introduce the
whole idea was just read aloud certain parts of the books I was reading.
Just little bits. I think I started out reading The Unschooling Handbook
when we were on a road trip somewhere and occasionally when I would get to a
really good quote I would just say listen to this. So it wasn't about me
convincing him or arguing with him it was just me reading.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>Any advice would be appreciated>>

Hi Kay and welcome.

My first thought is that since your oldest is only 4.5 you still have a
while to talk up and demonstrate unschooling to your dh before academics in
school would kick in. Try finding a preschool/kindergarten scope and
sequence. <shudder> Without even knowing you or your children, I can say
fairly certainly that you've already "covered" all the academics they push
on kids at 4 and 5. Most of those years are spent learning how to be in
school. How to line up and quiet down and perform when they ask.

You could also start gently showing him some articles and books on
unschooling. Lots of moms print out replies from this list or the message
boards at unschooling.com to share. Where do you live? Maybe there's a good
conference coming to a town near you.

It will be an ongoing process as you gently show him this new path and he
(hopefully) sees his kids mature and learn and blossom.

Good luck!

Life is good.
~Mary


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karyn Korins-Boyd

> ***My question is this- has anyone had a similar issue withh a spouse
>and
>what ways did you approach it so as to not hurt feelings? My husband
>wants
>to be involved but he has doubts about this philosophy. ***
>
>What's the compulsory school age in your state? If you're lucky it
>won't be until age seven and then you can agree with you're husband that
>the girls will learn at home with you and school can be worried about
>when the time comes.
>You'd have a lot of time then to enlighten your husband about unschooling
>and he'd have more time to think things over. When he's with them help
>him notice what they're doing.
>
>It IS hard to convince someone. Your family members and friends may
>never come around but if you can rally support from your husband those
>others won't matter much. Listen to his concerns and do what you can to
>address them. Has he talked to you about specific concern? Bring them
>here and get some ideas. Would he read about unschooling? Is he open
>to hearing about it, at least?
>
>Deb L, glad you de-lurked.
>

I believe that the compulsory age is 6 around here. However, I just figured
that I would get any ducks I needed to get in a row as time got closer. It
was never a high priority for me to make the state happy- just my kids :) I
do know that my school district is very pro homeschool compared to others
and so I never thought I would have to really plead my case in huge details
to anyone, let alone dh!

To make it clear: he is not against homeschooling at all. He is actually a
certified teacher and has done some subbing in public schools duing tighter
times. He knows first hand how damaging the system can be to kids and
supports alternatives to public school whole heartedly. I think that if we
had the $$$ lying around, he might have given more of a "fight" in favor to
some private school somewhere. Since this wasn't an option, it was either
public or home. That was the easy part of the journey in the early years!!

I never labeled my methods as unschooling (I personally don't like the term,
I do prefer something along the lines of "child led learning"). I just
found that my older daughter was a natural self educator. She has an
extremely long attention span for a kid her age, and always has. She gets
excited to explore so many things and I find myself as deeply involved in er
"obsessions" (as we call them around here) as she is. My younger one as
started getting involved- giving 110% of her small attention and effort to
keeping up. When dh is home and awake he does get into whatever chaos is
happening:) I think he issue maybe that he does not see this as learning.
Or, if it is, how can it possibly satisfy some state requirements down the
line? OR, yes the girls seem to be picking up all sorts of information now,
but as their brains develop and crave more complex info, how can we provide
this stuff without some kind of plan? AND, don't we need some kind of
predetermined plan layed out to make sure that we don't miss anything?

I have tried to patiently explain how all these things are completely
irrelevant, especially right now. He got me so worked up at one point, I
told him that if he was so darn sure we needed a curriculim, he could go
ahead a write one! Not one of my prouder moments. He tried and then
realized that it was useless- not only could he pin down what he thought a
4-5 yr old might need, but he knew that the paper would get buried under
some pile somewhere.

I have been leaving all sorts of lit around the house for years. I bring up
interesting points I have read and heard. I have even brought up some of
the things I have seen on this post. He is certainly not opposed to learning
about anyting that may involve the kids! He just has some ideas that are
very entrenched in his brain... I try not to nag. The last thing I want is
bully him. I would SO love for him to come to the realization that this has
and can work on his own with the minimal amount of nagging. One of his major
fears about unschooling is the ability for kids to learn self regulating.
Another of it is how does a parent "make sure" that their kid is prepared
for all subjects when thet kid may decide to never explore long division
while living at home, or some other subject that society deems necessary for
someone to master by the time they are 18. MY biggest concern is also about
self regulating. I worry about being able to let go of my own hang ups so
that the kids can learn it! [As I type this I can see the house being
destroyed out of the corners of my eyes and am getting antsy. Will I ever
be able to just go with the flow to the extent I need to without landing in
the loony bin?]

sorry for the book,
kay






>


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Mary Bianco

>From: "karyn Korins-Boyd" <karynbkb@...>

<<MY biggest concern is also about self regulating. I worry about being able
to let go of my own hang ups so that the kids can learn it! [As I type this
I can see the house being destroyed out of the corners of my eyes and am
getting antsy. Will I ever be able to just go with the flow to the extent I
need to without landing in the loony bin?]

sorry for the book,>>


Well I would suggest reading the archives and printing out some posts on
such things that you and your husband are concerned with. Not "all" of us
can be wrong! Get some books. Read some parts to him if he's not finding the
time to read himself. Fill him with all the information you can about all
the other people who have this work wonderfully for them and their families.
I'm sure doing the research for him will also put your mind at ease to when
you see how great this can be for the children, not just when they are small
but for always. How really great it can be for the family. It's worth the
effort.

Mary B


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Alan & Brenda Leonard

2/16/03 04:15:

> now. My question is this- has anyone had a similar issue withh a spouse and
> what ways did you approach it so as to not hurt feelings? My husband wants
> to be involved but he has doubts about this philosophy. Seeing is believing
> won't work because he barely sees th kids while they are awake some days!

Welcome, Kay.

My husband isn't doubting what I do, but I can definitely relate to the
barely-around sort. My dh is in the army, and it's not unusual for him to
be gone for weeks at a stretch.

I interpreted what you wrote to indicate that your husband is alright with
what you're doing right now, but has serious concerns in the long run. But
do you really need to try to change his mind about "the long run" right now,
or can you just work with today? Your children are 4.5 and 2. They're not
even official school age yet.

Do you let your husband know what happens at your house each day, while he's
gone? When mine is in the field, I send a daily email with just chatty news
of what's happening at home. It's reassuring to him to know what Tim (6
yrs) is up to, interested in, etc. That's also where I share with him some
of the great insights I've gotten here.

Your husband may not be gone overnight and may not have email, but maybe you
can just journal some notes to share great moments with him that you'd
otherwise forget.

But my best advice would be to show him how great your kids are doing today,
and let tomorrow worry about itself. And the answer to everyone else can
be, "Things are going great right now; if we need help, we'll be sure to let
you know!"

brenda

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/03 11:06:10 AM, karynbkb@... writes:

<< AND, don't we need some kind of
predetermined plan layed out to make sure that we don't miss anything?

I have tried to patiently explain how all these things are completely
irrelevant, especially right now. He got me so worked up at one point, I
told him that if he was so darn sure we needed a curriculim, he could go
ahead a write one! >>

I don't know if this link below will work, but a live link came over a yahoo
group to me this morning, so I'm trying it.

You don't have to "use a curriculum" and he doesn't have to write one. You
could just start off with a checklist.

I used to have the K-2 Albuquerque Public Schools Expected Competencies.
It's a list of the things kids need to know to pass a grade, and things the
teachers should manage to include at some point over the year.

When Kirby was five, I used to check it every week or so, then every month,
and then I forgot all about it for a long time. But I would mark the things
he knew. He never knew about the list, but it made me more confident.
Pretty soon I knew I didn't need to check the list.

I also got the Hirsch books "What your 1st Grader Needs to Know" and we just
used them like any other books, sometimes reading a story or looking at
something. Holly likes the history and politics stuff, about presidents, and
about the Greek senate. But we've never used them as "text books," any more
than coloring books or word-search or I Spy or Garfield or whatever.

Online there is Worldbook's general curriculum. This was designed originally
as an aid to people who bought the encyclopedias, and you got it when you
bought a set. Now it's available to anyone, and if you shared that with your
husband, the two of you could aim toward exposure to those kinds of topics
without being schoolish about it.

<A HREF="http://www2.worldbook.com/parents/course_study_curr0.asp">| W o r l
d B o o k |</A>

I also recommend approaching the situation in a temporary fashion. "Let's
try unschooling until it's not working."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/03 6:39:18 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< > Is it 2 years each for a Masters and a Doctorate? Well you've had 4.5
years
> ;-) If you got a doctorate in English Literature, wouldn't he defer to you
> greater knowledge of Chaucer? >>

Friends of mine are having home troubles. Not even unschooling, just
self-structured curriculum kind of stuff.

The dad has a PhD in engineering.
The mom has a BA in child development and education.

He doesn't regard a word she says. Not one.
It's starting to piss me off.

He wants the kids in school.

I feel so sorry for her.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

One of his major
> fears about unschooling is the ability for kids to learn self regulating.

Well, they certainly won't learn *self* regulation is there's always someone
else doing the regulating. <g>

> Another of it is how does a parent "make sure" that their kid is prepared
> for all subjects when thet kid may decide to never explore long division
> while living at home, or some other subject that society deems necessary
for
> someone to master by the time they are 18.

I'd be awfully surprised if a kid didn't find *some* reason for doing long
division by the time she's 18.
Tia

Tia Leschke

> I interpreted what you wrote to indicate that your husband is alright with
> what you're doing right now, but has serious concerns in the long run.
But
> do you really need to try to change his mind about "the long run" right
now,
> or can you just work with today? Your children are 4.5 and 2. They're
not
> even official school age yet.

My dh wasn't against homeschooling or unschooling. But he wasn't yet in
favour either. The spring before Lars would have been in kindergarten, I
just told dh that I didn't think Lars should go that year. He wouldn't even
have been 5 during the first month and a half of school. Rod agreed with
that. I just carried on unschooling (as I understood it then) as if we were
always going to be doing that. I figured if he wanted to bring it up he
could. He didn't. One thing he did object to were negative stories about
schools and teachers. His school experiences were mostly positive. So I
just concentrated on the positives of homeschooling for a long time. I
think it was probably 4 or 5 years before he became a convinced unschooling
supporter. Around that time he told me that he thought Lars would have
ended up being a bully in school. (He's always been big and strong for his
age, and he had some trouble controlling his use of his strength for a
while.) We haven't looked back.
Tia

zenmomma *

>He finally said, "Look: I TRUST you. I can SEE you've done all this
>research.
>And I know you would NEVER do anything to harm the children. If YOU didn't
>think this was right for them and us, you wouldn't be trying to convince
>me."

I remember poking my head into Ben's group for Dads at the conference. I
heard only one comment he made and it was something like..."look, you
trusted her enough to sleep with her, marry her and make babies with her.
Why would you stop trusting her now?"

What a guy!

Life is good.
~Mary

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zenmomma *

>To make it clear: he is not against homeschooling at all. He is actually a
>certified teacher and has done some subbing in public schools duing tighter
>times. He knows first hand how damaging the system can be to kids and
>supports alternatives to public school whole heartedly.

This might make the transition to unschooling a little harder for him. He
sees the damage of a "public" school education. Not necessarily of school in
general. If he'll stick it out for awhile, he'll start noticing how your
kids are retaining their sense of joyful inquiry while schooled kids are
burning out and getting bored and discouraged.


>>I think he issue maybe that he does not see this as learning.>>

Could you translate it into educationese for him once in a while?

>>Or, if it is, how can it possibly satisfy some state requirements down the
>>line?>>

What requirements does your state actually have?

>>OR, yes the girls seem to be picking up all sorts of information now, but
>>as their brains develop and crave more complex info, how can we provide
>>this stuff without some kind of plan?>>

Seems to me that as they crave it, you can plan it. :o) There's no way to
know now what they'll need at 16.

>>AND, don't we need some kind of predetermined plan layed out to make sure
>>that we don't miss anything?>>

Everyone misses something. The schools, the curriculum users, the unit study
practitioners, the unschoolers. It's not possible to know everything about
everything. Especially when everything keeps changing and evolving.
BUT...the difference with unschoolers is that we don't tell our kids that
learning starts "now" and ends "then." The learning never starts and the
learning never ends. There are no limits to asking another question. There
is no shame in not knowing an answer YET. It's really a beautifully thought
out open ended system.

>>He got me so worked up at one point, I told him that if he was so darn
>>sure we needed a curriculim, he could go ahead a write one!>>

I think that's great!! :o) If he's so sure it's necessary then he should be
able to create the studies and show you how to implement them.

>>He tried and then realized that it was useless- not only could he pin down
>>what he thought a 4-5 yr old might need, but he knew that the paper would
>>get buried under some pile somewhere.>>

See? It worked. It allowed him the time to really think about what he was
asking of you and the kids. Of course he couldn't pin down what *every* 4-5
year old should know. Each one is different and their abilities and
interests are all over the place. How wonderful of him to realize that.
Seems like he even realized that the paper would get buried as far more
interesting learning opportunities come up.

>>One of his major fears about unschooling is the ability for kids to learn
>>self regulating.>>

To self regulate what?

>>Another of it is how does a parent "make sure" that their kid is prepared
>>for all subjects when thet kid may decide to never explore long division
>>while living at home, or some other subject that society deems necessary
>>for someone to master by the time they are 18.>>

Why does anyone need to master long division by age 18? If they don't need
it in real life, then they don't need it. If they decide to get a job or
take a course that requires it, then they'll have 18 years of practice at
learning what they need and want to know.

>>I worry about being able to let go of my own hang ups so that the kids can
>>learn it!>>

Baby steps. Concentrte on your hang ups first. Worry about their "self
regualting" (still not sure what that refers to) as each issue arises.

Life is good.
~Mary



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In a message dated 2/16/03 3:53:31 PM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< >>AND, don't we need some kind of predetermined plan layed out to make
sure
>>that we don't miss anything?>>

<<Everyone misses something. >>

Mary's right.

If he says "we might miss something," just say "Like what?"

If it's something he can think of, tadaaa! He just has to bring it up
sometimes at a good moment. Years from now. <g> You don't have any kids who
are in imminent danger of forever missing algebra or outlining or report
writing.

And if anyone has kids who want to write reports, you can review books for
Amazon. That is REAL reporting. Or you can review DVDS after you send them
back to Netflix. Then real people will actually read the reports and they'll
be honest real-world writing.

-=-Why does anyone need to master long division by age 18? If they don't need
it in real life, then they don't need it.-=-

My kids can divide in their heads. I couldn't possibly have taught them how;
they figured it out. I have to use paper. I'm paper-trained. <g>

Calculators cost $5 now. Learning to use a calculator is more useful than
paper-training to long division. Why teach our kids stuff they would have
needed to know in 1962? It's the 21st century, and if we've learned anything
in our own lifetimes, it should be that WE DO NOT KNOW what facts or skills
our kids might need to know fifteen years from now. 2018. We know Zip.

If our kids know how to learn on their own THAT will prepare them for
whatever's happening when we're dead and gone. Or old and retired, whichever
comes first.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>Friends of mine are having home troubles. Not even unschooling, just
>self-structured curriculum kind of stuff.
>
>The dad has a PhD in engineering.
>The mom has a BA in child development and education.
>
>He doesn't regard a word she says. Not one.
>It's starting to piss me off.
>
>He wants the kids in school.

Is that the family I met with the daughter who was such a good artist? Just
wondering.

Life is good.
~Mary

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In a message dated 2/16/2003 3:31:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> You don't have to "use a curriculum" and he doesn't have to write one. You
> could just start off with a checklist.
>
>

I like to keep a journal listing the books my son reads and the stuff we do
together throughout the course of the day. Whenever, I start having any
doubts about unschooling, it really helps me to flip through it and see all
the cool stuff that has happened. I also think that it will be really
interesting to look at in years to come and say, "Remember when we did
this...."
Amy Kagey
E-mail me for a list of used
homeschooling books for sale!
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">Shop: Usborne Books!</A>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**The dad has a PhD in engineering.
The mom has a BA in child development and education.

He doesn't regard a word she says. Not one.
It's starting to piss me off.

He wants the kids in school.

I feel so sorry for her.**


Hi, Sandra --

I know you are good at expressing ideas in "educationese" when needed,
so, since Keith is an engineer, can you speak "engineer-ese" if you have to?

I got frustrated with my brother, the programmer, last year. He really
seems to think that learning is something that you program into kids in
a linear fashion, one item on the checklist at a time, regardless of
interest or aptitude. Do you suppose there's an unquestioned paradigm
like this one at the bottom of this man's thinking?

If communication between the two parents is working, then they may be
able to work this out. But if it isn't, then I think getting someone
non-threatening (like your husband?) to *listen* to this man's point of
view for an hour or two would be very helpful. (Particularly helpful
in framing good counter-arguments and good compromises and maybe even
good win-win solutions.)

If unpaid, volunteer diplomats can't negotiate a truce then a paid
professional counselor might be worth using.

Hope it works out.

Betsy

Pam Sorooshian

On Sunday, February 16, 2003, at 01:26 PM, Tia Leschke wrote:

>> Another of it is how does a parent "make sure" that their kid is
>> prepared
>> for all subjects when thet kid may decide to never explore long
>> division
>> while living at home, or some other subject that society deems
>> necessary
> for
>> someone to master by the time they are 18.
>
> I'd be awfully surprised if a kid didn't find *some* reason for doing
> long
> division by the time she's 18.

Oh oh oh --- I think I hear my cue!!! <G>

I've told you all before how Roxana learned to do long division -- she
wanted to go to New York (we live in California) and was trying to
figure out how long it would take us to drive there. She asked me how
far away it was (about 3,000 miles) and how many miles we could drive
in a day (around 350) and she began subtracting 350 from 3,000 and then
350 from that and so on. She got frustrated because she realized she'd
made a mistake early on and, as I walked by I said, "There is an easier
way to do that." She wanted to know how and I told her she'd have to
let me show her in a view steps. She said, "Okay." So - I showed her 6
divided by 2 and then 60 divided by 2 and then 64 divided by 2 and then
60 divided by 20 and so on - showed her what to do with remainders and
then said she was ready to do 3,000 divided by 350. So she did it.
THEN - she said: "WHY did you not ever show me this before? It is so
cool." I said, "It is called 'long division,'" and she just couldn't
believe it: "Everybody HATES long division but THIS is too cool." She
asked me to give her some more problems to work and I did. This entire
process took about 30 minutes, max. That was it - she knew how to do it
- I've seen her use it many times since then (she's 15).

So - a few days ago Rosie (12) said she was bored. I said, "Well - what
do you want to do?" "Hmmm- I want to learn something new like some new
math thing or something." "Like what?" I asked. "Like - you know that
division thing where you write all the numbers down in a list or
something?" "Like long division?" "Yes." So - I showed her a few
problems, starting with simple ones. She asked me to give her more
problems to work. She was interested in the remainders - in
understanding what they meant. So we looked at them as leftovers and as
fractions of groups and then I showed her how to deal with remainders
using decimals. Again - the whole thing lasted about 30 minutes. It was
fun for both of us.

So - all three of my girls have learned long division. Check that off!
<G>

Interestingly, long division is taught when kids are 9 to 10 years old,
in school. But my girls naturally seemed to want to learn it at about
12. They learned lots of other things before that - lots of statistics
ideas, for example. Also a lot about decimals and fractions. To be
honest, even though I'm really interested in how kids learn math, I
can't say that I really know how or when they learned most of it.

Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/16/03 4:54:46 PM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< Is that the family I met with the daughter who was such a good artist?
Just
wondering. >>

Yes and she just found out Friday that she's been selected as one of three
national winners in a story-telling competition, of sorts. Kids submitted
videotapes, and each state chose some, and Tam's one of the top three, who
will perform at a storytelling convention in northern California (I think)
later this year.

One of her brothers said happily "This wouldn't have happened if she hadn't
been a homeschooler!" and her dad said quickly "That's not true."

He's SO resistent, it's heartbreaking for me. Those kids are great, but all
he sees is their lack of "education" and grades and credits.

Sandra

Marjorie Kirk

My husband was on the fence about homeschooling when our oldest was four.
What TOTALLY convinced him was attending a HS Conference. It wasn't the
speakers, or the other parents sharing their philosophy and ideas. It was
seeing the kids! Afterward he told me how impressed he had been with the
kids who were there. They were kind to each other, articulate, and not
afraid of voicing their opinions right along with the adults.
If you can, try taking him to the unschooling conference!

JMHO,
Marjorie

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/17/03 7:39:41 AM, mkirk@... writes:

<< What TOTALLY convinced him was attending a HS Conference. It wasn't the
speakers, or the other parents sharing their philosophy and ideas. It was
seeing the kids! Afterward he told me how impressed he had been with the
kids who were there. They were kind to each other, articulate, and not
afraid of voicing their opinions right along with the adults. >>

When Kirby was five, a weekly playgroup we had already been in for a few
years started evolving into a homeschooling group, as some families' kids
went to school and others didn't. Until just a couple of years ago (2.5?),
we met every week with unschoolers and interested parties. New moms often
wanted to talk to the other moms. I would try to get them to hang out with
the kids instead. Some got it, some didn't.

Some adults just ignore kids and don't want kids around, and so the idea of
kids not being articulate with adults isn't always the kids' fault. School
discourages direct and real conversations between teachers and kids after a
while, it seems. And many families do it too.

But unschooling families where parents listen to their kids and have REAL
discussions with them regularly are creating a model that I'd never seen
before, of kids who do not see themselves as separate or smaller or
secondary.

So I know exactly what Marjorie's talking about.

A homeschooling group here plays Harry Potter once a week (collectible card
game tournaments) at a shop really (coincidently) close to our house.
Holly's been going for months, and Kirby started going lately.

A little boy of nine of ten was saying something about how he learned to read
from the games, and Kirby said "You know how I learned? Nintendo Power."

The boy's mom said, "The reason we homeschool is because I read an article
about how you learned to read."

Holly told me this story. I could get closer quotes from her, maybe. She's
got a great memory. But Holly says Kirby said "Really?"

The mom was reassuring him that really, it was reading something I had
written that caused their family not only to homeschool, but to be
unschoolers.

Kirby said "I didn't know we did that for people!"

That makes me think Kirby hasn't been paying any attention for many years.
<bwg>
More likely, he's unaware of how different his life is. Of his friends, half
are homeschooled. There are other kids his age who've never been to school,
who never did school at home. He's unaware of just how small a percentage of
the world he's in!

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>Yes and she just found out Friday that she's been selected as one of three
>>national winners in a story-telling competition, of sorts. Kids submitted
>>videotapes, and each state chose some, and Tam's one of the top three, who
>>will perform at a storytelling convention in northern California (I think)
>>later this year.>>

Wow! I just told Casey this and we are both amazed and thrilled for her. In
fact, Casey just asked if we can go to CA to see her at the conference, so
keep us posted.

Tam made a big impression on Casey (and me!). During our ride home from your
house, Casey's sketch book filled up with detailed underwater scenes
inspired by Tam's drawings. It is really difficult to hear how her dad
cannot understand that her talents are flourishing at home. <sigh>

>>He's SO resistent, it's heartbreaking for me. Those kids are great, but
>>all he sees is their lack of "education" and grades and credits.>>

They ARE great. So is their mom. I'll keep them in my thoughts and hope for
some enlightenment for dad. :-(

Life is good.
~Mary


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Betsy

**The mom was reassuring him that really, it was reading something I had
written that caused their family not only to homeschool, but to be
unschoolers.

Kirby said "I didn't know we did that for people!"**


Cool!

I was thinking about the math. Even if you helped a thousand people
make this big, bold decision, what are the odds that one of them would
live near you in New Mexico? Population density is not in your favor. <g>

(The actual calculation is left as an exercise for the reader.)

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/17/03 12:17:32 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< Even if you helped a thousand people
make this big, bold decision, what are the odds that one of them would
live near you in New Mexico? Population density is not in your favor. <g> >>

Except she probably read it in Enchanted Families or Rio Grande Homeschoolers
or some other short-lived local thing <g>.

Sandra

natalie hessell

Hi,

I am new to the list and just wanted to intoduce myself. My name is
Natalie, and have been an unschooling mom for nearly 7 years. That is my
oldest will be 7 in a few days. He has 2 younger sisters ages 3 and 8
months. If this goes through I have a more specific question to ask you all
about later. Hope to talk to you all soon.



Natalie