Unschooling or Eclectic? Math issues...
Campbell & Wyman
>So you are saying that ages 13-14 is where math should begin? ThusI had to respond to this very interesting discussion. I tend to wonder
>entering into the algebras, trigs, geometry, etc.? Then where is the
>child's base? Math like any other subject must have a foundation.
about foundation information too, Laraine. I strive to be more
'unschooling' in my approach...and that is why I am on this list , but I
still struggle with leaving the math-learning to its own devices.
I have two friends who are unschoolers through and through. Their children
now are in high school or have gone to college. Both friends tell me that
they did not teach math from a text or from a workbook and they both regret
not keeping up with 'building blocks' of learning math. Their children
struggled with math when they went mainstream. The struggle was painful
and it took a long time to catch up. In other subjects they were on top of
the class but in math they were frustrated. They have advised me to
unschool in all subjects except in math.
What do you think??
Brooke
brynlee@...
Lisa Bugg
>regret
> I have two friends who are unschoolers through and through. Their children
> now are in high school or have gone to college. Both friends tell me that
> they did not teach math from a text or from a workbook and they both
> not keeping up with 'building blocks' of learning math. Their childrenThis is the same discussion I've had with my teen. We talk about what it
> struggled with math when they went mainstream. The struggle was painful
> and it took a long time to catch up>
means to choose not to work on math or writing or read certain types of
material (the young woman never reads fiction.. only nonfiction) I think
you're forgetting that you are still living and working and being with your
children. We spend time talking about what's included in different
professions, what makes life enjoyable. Math is part and parcel of those
discussions. There are math materials here to look over and mess around
with. She makes her choices, just with lots and lots of input, sometimes
even with disapproval of her choice. I think she ought to read more and I
say so. :)
She says I ought to spend less time on the computer.
Stalemate! Or maybe Checkmate! <VBG>
Lisa
Lisa Bugg
>regret
> I have two friends who are unschoolers through and through. Their children
> now are in high school or have gone to college. Both friends tell me that
> they did not teach math from a text or from a workbook and they both
> not keeping up with 'building blocks' of learning math. Their childrenThis is the same discussion I've had with my teen. We talk about what it
> struggled with math when they went mainstream. The struggle was painful
> and it took a long time to catch up>
means to choose not to work on math or writing or read certain types of
material (the young woman never reads fiction.. only nonfiction) I think
you're forgetting that you are still living and working and being with your
children. We spend time talking about what's included in different
professions, what makes life enjoyable. Math is part and parcel of those
discussions. There are math materials here to look over and mess around
with. She makes her choices, just with lots and lots of input, sometimes
even with disapproval of her choice. I think she ought to read more and I
say so. :)
She says I ought to spend less time on the computer.
Stalemate! Or maybe Checkmate! <VBG>
Lisa
The O'Donnells
At 06:41 AM 9/4/99 -0700, you wrote:
They have advised me to
in place to build anything. Haven't seen any buildings recently without
foundations have you? Your report of the two hs unschooled kids who had
trouble in math only strengthens my concern on the issue. I have one child
that wants to be a marine biologist/photographer type person - math seems
like a really big need to me - of course we all know that since she is only
10 that is probably going to change a dozen times, although she has been
saying this since she was 7 already. Back to the issue - all things need a
foundation if you plan to build on them.
History is about the only subject that I don't see this in - you can pick
any time frame and learn fine about it without a lot of build up - usually
- not totally. Science is somewhat the same way although you must know the
basic outlines of the ocean before you will understand why photo plankton
live where they do and why Orcas live where they do. English can be
approached kind of hodge podge after a basic understanding of sentences vs
questions and nouns vs verbs.
So all things have foundations but some are easier to work with than others
without stressing the foundation. Sorry to all you guys out there trying
to show me better - this is why I have trouble letting go with unschooling
- keep seeing the foundations.
Unschooling at our house happens on days when I simply cannot sit with the
children for one reason or another. Then they do what they want (other
than watch TV). It's beginning to sound like I don't unschool at all
doesn't it?
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
They have advised me to
>unschool in all subjects except in math.Claiming ignorance from the get go, I still believe that the base must be
>
>What do you think??
>
in place to build anything. Haven't seen any buildings recently without
foundations have you? Your report of the two hs unschooled kids who had
trouble in math only strengthens my concern on the issue. I have one child
that wants to be a marine biologist/photographer type person - math seems
like a really big need to me - of course we all know that since she is only
10 that is probably going to change a dozen times, although she has been
saying this since she was 7 already. Back to the issue - all things need a
foundation if you plan to build on them.
History is about the only subject that I don't see this in - you can pick
any time frame and learn fine about it without a lot of build up - usually
- not totally. Science is somewhat the same way although you must know the
basic outlines of the ocean before you will understand why photo plankton
live where they do and why Orcas live where they do. English can be
approached kind of hodge podge after a basic understanding of sentences vs
questions and nouns vs verbs.
So all things have foundations but some are easier to work with than others
without stressing the foundation. Sorry to all you guys out there trying
to show me better - this is why I have trouble letting go with unschooling
- keep seeing the foundations.
Unschooling at our house happens on days when I simply cannot sit with the
children for one reason or another. Then they do what they want (other
than watch TV). It's beginning to sound like I don't unschool at all
doesn't it?
In His Service,
Laraine
praxis@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/99 4:35:19 PM, LisaBugg@... writes:
<<I think she ought to read more and I
say so. :)
She says I ought to spend less time on the computer.
Stalemate! Or maybe Checkmate! <VBG>
Lisa>>
Could we sway her with terrific book recommendations? This week I've been
alternating my computer time with reading Tad Williams' enormous book
_Otherland_.
Betsy
<<I think she ought to read more and I
say so. :)
She says I ought to spend less time on the computer.
Stalemate! Or maybe Checkmate! <VBG>
Lisa>>
Could we sway her with terrific book recommendations? This week I've been
alternating my computer time with reading Tad Williams' enormous book
_Otherland_.
Betsy
Olivia
At 10:37 PM 09/05/1999 -0400, you wrote:
other day he picked a game from Number Jugglers, a book of math-related card
games. He always picks the hardest game involving complicated equations, even
though he can only do simple ones (he's 6). Then he gets frustrated and I get
frustrated trying to explain harder math concepts when we haven't done the
easier concepts yet. But he always picks the hardest things first and says he
can do them. Is he setting himself up for frustration ahead of time?
This debate between linear vs. circular learning comes up all the time.
Sometimes it's not difficult to backtrack to get "foundation'' information. But
math, perhaps because of the way I was taught, seems to be harder (at least for
me) when it's not linear. (But math has always been hard for me because of the
way it was presented in school.)
I think it's hard for me, because of the way I was taught in public school and
at home, to watch my son learn in a non-linear way because it seems so
haphazard...that he's not going to learn everything about a subject (but does
he need to?). That's more my problem than his. Of course, I suppose it's hard
to know what a person is learning because you can't actually see knowledge.
Olivia
>From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>This question comes up whenever my son wants to do something with math. The
> - all things need a
>foundation if you plan to build on them.
>
>
>So all things have foundations but some are easier to work with than others
>without stressing the foundation. Sorry to all you guys out there trying
>to show me better - this is why I have trouble letting go with unschooling
>- keep seeing the foundations.
other day he picked a game from Number Jugglers, a book of math-related card
games. He always picks the hardest game involving complicated equations, even
though he can only do simple ones (he's 6). Then he gets frustrated and I get
frustrated trying to explain harder math concepts when we haven't done the
easier concepts yet. But he always picks the hardest things first and says he
can do them. Is he setting himself up for frustration ahead of time?
This debate between linear vs. circular learning comes up all the time.
Sometimes it's not difficult to backtrack to get "foundation'' information. But
math, perhaps because of the way I was taught, seems to be harder (at least for
me) when it's not linear. (But math has always been hard for me because of the
way it was presented in school.)
I think it's hard for me, because of the way I was taught in public school and
at home, to watch my son learn in a non-linear way because it seems so
haphazard...that he's not going to learn everything about a subject (but does
he need to?). That's more my problem than his. Of course, I suppose it's hard
to know what a person is learning because you can't actually see knowledge.
Olivia
FUN (Billy & Nancy)
Sure, everything has foundations when you look at the finished product. When
you are starting out, the problem is to look at what the proper foundation
is and when you need it.
Your kids decide they want to build their own house in your backyard. You
get them books on basic carpentry and housebuilding. When they are ready to
start, you insist that they must first dig a trench and pour concrete for
the footing. That's how your house was built and your parents', and all of
your neighbors' houses, and that's what the books recommend. "But mom," your
kids complain, "that doesn't make sense for a treehouse!"
Do you need the same foundation for "straw bale" construction, a houseboat,
an RV? They are all houses.
And when do you build that foundation? True, most conventional houses you
see are resting on firm foundations, but do you see builders going out and
putting in foundations all over the place because one day someone might want
to build a house on that site? No, usually the foundation isn't put in until
someone has made a firm commitment to put up their house. It can be a waste
of resources to build lots of foundations that may never be completed.
You say math is different? There is only one kind of math, one right answer,
and one right way to get it? Not true. A lot of people are surprised that
the very first book in the Miquon math series introduces multiplying
fractions. Most traditional math programs don't even get into multiplying
for beginning math, much less multiplying fractions. Traditional math says
you can't work with fractions or multiplication until you build the
foundation first, but Miquon presents the concepts in such an easy to
understand way that it becomes part of the foundation.
How do you get the answer to 3x9? Do you automatically spit out 27 because
you memorized the multiplication tables? How many people (like me) think of
the problem as 3x10 then deduct 3 (making the problem 3x10-3x1 because 9 is
1 less than 10). It seems less efficient, but it works better for some
people.
There are different strategies for doing math and children can be encouraged
to develop those skills as they need them. Doing woodworking, sewing or
having an allowance can present ample opportunities and motivation for
learning math.
Billy
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
F.U.N. News - FUN Books
Visit our web sites!
http://www.FUN-Books.com/
http://www.unschooling.org/
Subscribe to the FUN News on-line
newsletter. Send a message to:
[email protected]
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
You can read more about Miquon math at
http://www.FUN-Books.com/mathematics.htm#Miquon
you are starting out, the problem is to look at what the proper foundation
is and when you need it.
Your kids decide they want to build their own house in your backyard. You
get them books on basic carpentry and housebuilding. When they are ready to
start, you insist that they must first dig a trench and pour concrete for
the footing. That's how your house was built and your parents', and all of
your neighbors' houses, and that's what the books recommend. "But mom," your
kids complain, "that doesn't make sense for a treehouse!"
Do you need the same foundation for "straw bale" construction, a houseboat,
an RV? They are all houses.
And when do you build that foundation? True, most conventional houses you
see are resting on firm foundations, but do you see builders going out and
putting in foundations all over the place because one day someone might want
to build a house on that site? No, usually the foundation isn't put in until
someone has made a firm commitment to put up their house. It can be a waste
of resources to build lots of foundations that may never be completed.
You say math is different? There is only one kind of math, one right answer,
and one right way to get it? Not true. A lot of people are surprised that
the very first book in the Miquon math series introduces multiplying
fractions. Most traditional math programs don't even get into multiplying
for beginning math, much less multiplying fractions. Traditional math says
you can't work with fractions or multiplication until you build the
foundation first, but Miquon presents the concepts in such an easy to
understand way that it becomes part of the foundation.
How do you get the answer to 3x9? Do you automatically spit out 27 because
you memorized the multiplication tables? How many people (like me) think of
the problem as 3x10 then deduct 3 (making the problem 3x10-3x1 because 9 is
1 less than 10). It seems less efficient, but it works better for some
people.
There are different strategies for doing math and children can be encouraged
to develop those skills as they need them. Doing woodworking, sewing or
having an allowance can present ample opportunities and motivation for
learning math.
Billy
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
F.U.N. News - FUN Books
Visit our web sites!
http://www.FUN-Books.com/
http://www.unschooling.org/
Subscribe to the FUN News on-line
newsletter. Send a message to:
[email protected]
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
You can read more about Miquon math at
http://www.FUN-Books.com/mathematics.htm#Miquon
>-----Original Message-----
>From: The O'Donnells [mailto:praxis@...]
>Sent: Sunday, September 05, 1999 10:37 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Unschooling or Eclectic? Math
>issues...
>
>
>From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
>
>At 06:41 AM 9/4/99 -0700, you wrote:
> They have advised me to
>>unschool in all subjects except in math.
>>
>>What do you think??
>>
>Claiming ignorance from the get go, I still believe that the base must be
>in place to build anything. Haven't seen any buildings recently without
>foundations have you?
> Back to the issue - all things need a
>foundation if you plan to build on them.
[email protected]
Brooke wrote:
<< Their children
now are in high school or have gone to college. Both friends tell me that
they did not teach math from a text or from a workbook and they both regret
not keeping up with 'building blocks' of learning math. Their children
struggled with math when they went mainstream. The struggle was painful
and it took a long time to catch up. In other subjects they were on top of
the class but in math they were frustrated. They have advised me to
unschool in all subjects except in math.
unschooling friends whose boys ended up going to high school She never
insisted that her boys "do Math" although she did have a lot of Math games
she played with them, both computer and otherwise. Her boys have completely
excelled in Math in high school, without having used any "foundational"
material except what I've mentioned. In other subjects, they haven't done as
well. This, my friend feels, is because they are bored by the way these
subjects are taught.
There are a lot of different opinions out there. That's probably what makes
it so confusing for the rest of us...and what makes it more important for us
to rely on our own judgment and our children's needs than listening to
anybody else.
Carol from WI
<< Their children
now are in high school or have gone to college. Both friends tell me that
they did not teach math from a text or from a workbook and they both regret
not keeping up with 'building blocks' of learning math. Their children
struggled with math when they went mainstream. The struggle was painful
and it took a long time to catch up. In other subjects they were on top of
the class but in math they were frustrated. They have advised me to
unschool in all subjects except in math.
>>This is so interesting, because I have heard absolutely the opposite from an
unschooling friends whose boys ended up going to high school She never
insisted that her boys "do Math" although she did have a lot of Math games
she played with them, both computer and otherwise. Her boys have completely
excelled in Math in high school, without having used any "foundational"
material except what I've mentioned. In other subjects, they haven't done as
well. This, my friend feels, is because they are bored by the way these
subjects are taught.
There are a lot of different opinions out there. That's probably what makes
it so confusing for the rest of us...and what makes it more important for us
to rely on our own judgment and our children's needs than listening to
anybody else.
Carol from WI
Olivia
At 11:14 AM 09/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
at a fabric store. By measuring and cutting fabric and trim I could
visually see what fractions looked like and could more easily manipulate
them in my head. The same with buying our house: I never had a better grasp
on geometry than when I had to figure out lot sizes and areas, and cost per
square foot. It was much more understandable when it dealt with practical
situations.
Olivia
>From: "FUN (Billy & Nancy)" <FUNLists@...>. Doing woodworking, sewing or
>
>having an allowance can present ample opportunities and motivation forYou reminded me that I never understood fractions as well as when I worked
>learning math.
>
at a fabric store. By measuring and cutting fabric and trim I could
visually see what fractions looked like and could more easily manipulate
them in my head. The same with buying our house: I never had a better grasp
on geometry than when I had to figure out lot sizes and areas, and cost per
square foot. It was much more understandable when it dealt with practical
situations.
Olivia
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/6/99 8:15:49 AM EST, praxis@... writes:
<< this is why I have trouble letting go with unschooling
- keep seeing the foundations. >>
Laraine,
I feel the same way, I have the same problem letting go of math. I can let
go all but reading writing and math. The basics have to be laid down in some
way. I am looking for the fun way for the boys, but, bottom line, I can un
everything else but this. Trying to find the way, and am getting some real
good ideas from everyone who is so patiently trying to get it thru my thick
skull!
Teresa
<< this is why I have trouble letting go with unschooling
- keep seeing the foundations. >>
Laraine,
I feel the same way, I have the same problem letting go of math. I can let
go all but reading writing and math. The basics have to be laid down in some
way. I am looking for the fun way for the boys, but, bottom line, I can un
everything else but this. Trying to find the way, and am getting some real
good ideas from everyone who is so patiently trying to get it thru my thick
skull!
Teresa
Lisa Bugg
, I have the same problem letting go of math. I can let
> go all but reading writing and math.What else is there???>
>