Re: New to unschooling... help
Pam Hartley
Hi Amie, and welcome to the list.
letting them watch as much as they want to, I mean without interrupting them
every 10 minutes with, "Wouldn't you rather bake a cake with me? Go for a
walk? Do a puzzle? Go visit Grandma?" :) Kids can tell when you're trying to
distract them from something, and like the rest of us contrary humans they
figure if we're that against it, it's gotta be good.
You can run an experiment: let them watch as much as they want to for the
next year. Have on offer your normal life: day trips, general fun things,
but don't be rushing in there every time they sit down and try to get them
to do something else. Treat their television viewing with the same respect
you would show if they were reading a book or playing a game or singing a
song -- wait until they're done before you offer other things, or offer
other things only when they really DO come up naturally ("I'm starting
dinner, anybody want to help?" or "Okay, gang, let's find a good stopping
point after this program so we can excavate the living room." or "I'm
heading out to the store when Dad gets home, anybody who wants to go with me
needs to have shoes on and hair brushed." Etc.)
I'll wager real money that they will show you in that year (actually in a
lot less than a year, most likely in the first week or two) a variety of
viewing patterns, including watching TV nearly all day every day for days,
and not watching more than a few minutes a day for days (but leaving the
darn thing on, which I always turn off if no one is in the room <g>) and
watching one full program here or there, or watching if they're bored or
stressed, or any or all of the above and about 20 other patterns.
TV is entertaining. This should come as no great shock to people -- it's why
it's so popular. The reason it's the major pastime of Americans isn't
because they mist heroine out the speakers at us, it's because it's fun to
watch. It's also information-intensive, educational, drivel, great, boring
and stupid, brilliant, inspiring, irritating, all of the above.
Our family watches a LOT of TV, from "the good stuff" on the History and
Discovery Channels to such mindless drivel as my newest obsession, The
Amazing Race on CBS Wednesdays (though I learned several interesting things
about South Africa last week <g>). In spite of this (or, as this unschooler
would say, because of this), we can converse in complete sentences, enjoy
books and games and walks, and don't drool noticeably (well, maybe during
Sweeps <eg>).
Pam
> I've tried the let'sHow long did you try letting them watch as much as they want to? And by
> each pick a show each day, tried to let them come up with solutions,
> tried to explain why it isn't healthy, tried to always have something
> exciting(this is hard to do), letting them watch as much as they want
> to(thinking it wouldn't be so exciting). None of these worked.
> I say the T.V. is fuzzy, which is true, but I still feel wrong about it.
> I can't think of any other solutions. Anyone?
letting them watch as much as they want to, I mean without interrupting them
every 10 minutes with, "Wouldn't you rather bake a cake with me? Go for a
walk? Do a puzzle? Go visit Grandma?" :) Kids can tell when you're trying to
distract them from something, and like the rest of us contrary humans they
figure if we're that against it, it's gotta be good.
You can run an experiment: let them watch as much as they want to for the
next year. Have on offer your normal life: day trips, general fun things,
but don't be rushing in there every time they sit down and try to get them
to do something else. Treat their television viewing with the same respect
you would show if they were reading a book or playing a game or singing a
song -- wait until they're done before you offer other things, or offer
other things only when they really DO come up naturally ("I'm starting
dinner, anybody want to help?" or "Okay, gang, let's find a good stopping
point after this program so we can excavate the living room." or "I'm
heading out to the store when Dad gets home, anybody who wants to go with me
needs to have shoes on and hair brushed." Etc.)
I'll wager real money that they will show you in that year (actually in a
lot less than a year, most likely in the first week or two) a variety of
viewing patterns, including watching TV nearly all day every day for days,
and not watching more than a few minutes a day for days (but leaving the
darn thing on, which I always turn off if no one is in the room <g>) and
watching one full program here or there, or watching if they're bored or
stressed, or any or all of the above and about 20 other patterns.
TV is entertaining. This should come as no great shock to people -- it's why
it's so popular. The reason it's the major pastime of Americans isn't
because they mist heroine out the speakers at us, it's because it's fun to
watch. It's also information-intensive, educational, drivel, great, boring
and stupid, brilliant, inspiring, irritating, all of the above.
Our family watches a LOT of TV, from "the good stuff" on the History and
Discovery Channels to such mindless drivel as my newest obsession, The
Amazing Race on CBS Wednesdays (though I learned several interesting things
about South Africa last week <g>). In spite of this (or, as this unschooler
would say, because of this), we can converse in complete sentences, enjoy
books and games and walks, and don't drool noticeably (well, maybe during
Sweeps <eg>).
Pam
Bridget E Coffman
I'll take that bet . . . because I can do it in reverse. Like I said -
I've been unschooling for 6 years. I had in that time two major
illnesses. My son has had two opportunities to watch as much as he wants
for more than a year each time. And the result is that he watches more
and more and more and more, just like a heroin addict does more heroin.
I am not saying that this is the case with all kids. I am only saying
that encouraging some other mother to ignore her instincts in the name of
unschooling is just as wrong as Farris telling you to ignore yours in
favor of structure.
Bridget
On Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:30:17 -0700 Pam Hartley
<pamhartley@...> writes:
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat
I've been unschooling for 6 years. I had in that time two major
illnesses. My son has had two opportunities to watch as much as he wants
for more than a year each time. And the result is that he watches more
and more and more and more, just like a heroin addict does more heroin.
I am not saying that this is the case with all kids. I am only saying
that encouraging some other mother to ignore her instincts in the name of
unschooling is just as wrong as Farris telling you to ignore yours in
favor of structure.
Bridget
On Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:30:17 -0700 Pam Hartley
<pamhartley@...> writes:
> You can run an experiment: let them watch as much as they want to[snip]
> for the next year.
> I'll wager real money that they will show you in that year (actuallyin a
> lot less than a year, most likely in the first week or two) a varietyof
> viewing patterns, including watching TV nearly all day every day fordays,
> and not watching more than a few minutes a day for days (but leavingthe
> darn thing on, which I always turn off if no one is in the room <g>)and
> watching one full program here or there, or watching if they're boredor
> stressed, or any or all of the above and about 20 other patterns.~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
>
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat
[email protected]
<< My son has had two opportunities to watch as much as he wants
for more than a year each time. >>
But with a sick mother, not with a full range of healthy unschooling options.
Unschooling moms need to provide a range of cool stuff to do, not just stay
in the house telling the kids to turn off the TV, hoping educational
opportunities are oozing up from the floor of his room without her helping
scout out any cool exposure to outside (and inside) stuff.
<< But there is a big difference between 3 and 9 and even more difference at
16.>>
Yes. The older kids need even MORE freedom and respect.
<<think a big part of being an unschooling parent has to be recognizing
when something is becoming a problem. >>
And part of joining a big unschooling list is the opportunity to get more
input on helping you recognize what the problem might be. Villifying the TV
isn't right. The TV isn't your problem. The kids won't be watching TV if
they're not even in the house. Get out and do something exhilarating. Rent
videos you yourself would like to watch with them, if you can't get out.
-=-Only you know your child well enough to recognize
the difference between a minor fixation and a truly problematic
addiction.-=-
But others might see options other than just turning the TV into a control
issue between the parent and child, and there are LOTS of people on this list
who are successfully, happily and calmly unschooling. If you don't want to
hear their ideas or you bat them away with insults every time they come, why
would you want to be on this list?
And again, www.unschooling.com is the main site of which this list is a small
part.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
for more than a year each time. >>
But with a sick mother, not with a full range of healthy unschooling options.
Unschooling moms need to provide a range of cool stuff to do, not just stay
in the house telling the kids to turn off the TV, hoping educational
opportunities are oozing up from the floor of his room without her helping
scout out any cool exposure to outside (and inside) stuff.
<< But there is a big difference between 3 and 9 and even more difference at
16.>>
Yes. The older kids need even MORE freedom and respect.
<<think a big part of being an unschooling parent has to be recognizing
when something is becoming a problem. >>
And part of joining a big unschooling list is the opportunity to get more
input on helping you recognize what the problem might be. Villifying the TV
isn't right. The TV isn't your problem. The kids won't be watching TV if
they're not even in the house. Get out and do something exhilarating. Rent
videos you yourself would like to watch with them, if you can't get out.
-=-Only you know your child well enough to recognize
the difference between a minor fixation and a truly problematic
addiction.-=-
But others might see options other than just turning the TV into a control
issue between the parent and child, and there are LOTS of people on this list
who are successfully, happily and calmly unschooling. If you don't want to
hear their ideas or you bat them away with insults every time they come, why
would you want to be on this list?
And again, www.unschooling.com is the main site of which this list is a small
part.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Lynda
Unfortunately some unschoolers become as locked into and are as rigid about
a
definition as the 3Rs folks are. In doing so they forget that everyone is
an
individual. Some folks are born "knowing" and "aware" and others may have
addictive personalities and if they aren't born with the innate ability to
know themselves they become addicted to any number of things. Most folks
jump to the obvious--alcohol and drugs--while forgetting that this type
personality can become addicted to any number of things and it has been
found that television is high on that list of things.
A trully loving and caring parent, be they ps, hs or unschooling will forget
what the pigeon holes are all about and use some common sense to help guide
their *individual* child through the complicated maze we call life.
Lynda
a
definition as the 3Rs folks are. In doing so they forget that everyone is
an
individual. Some folks are born "knowing" and "aware" and others may have
addictive personalities and if they aren't born with the innate ability to
know themselves they become addicted to any number of things. Most folks
jump to the obvious--alcohol and drugs--while forgetting that this type
personality can become addicted to any number of things and it has been
found that television is high on that list of things.
A trully loving and caring parent, be they ps, hs or unschooling will forget
what the pigeon holes are all about and use some common sense to help guide
their *individual* child through the complicated maze we call life.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: New to unschooling... help
> I'll take that bet . . . because I can do it in reverse. Like I said -
> I've been unschooling for 6 years. I had in that time two major
> illnesses. My son has had two opportunities to watch as much as he wants
> for more than a year each time. And the result is that he watches more
> and more and more and more, just like a heroin addict does more heroin.
>
> I am not saying that this is the case with all kids. I am only saying
> that encouraging some other mother to ignore her instincts in the name of
> unschooling is just as wrong as Farris telling you to ignore yours in
> favor of structure.
>
> Bridget
>
>
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:30:17 -0700 Pam Hartley
> <pamhartley@...> writes:
> > You can run an experiment: let them watch as much as they want to
> > for the next year.
> [snip]
> > I'll wager real money that they will show you in that year (actually
> in a
> > lot less than a year, most likely in the first week or two) a variety
> of
> > viewing patterns, including watching TV nearly all day every day for
> days,
> > and not watching more than a few minutes a day for days (but leaving
> the
> > darn thing on, which I always turn off if no one is in the room <g>)
> and
> > watching one full program here or there, or watching if they're bored
> or
> > stressed, or any or all of the above and about 20 other patterns.
> >
>
> ~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
> comes from morons?~~~~
> I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
> Some letter of that After-life to spell;
> And by and by my Soul returned to me,
> And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
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>
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>
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>
>
Bridget E Coffman
On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:46:32 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
sometimes my son needs a little help in keeping it turned off. Just like
I sometimes need a little help not drinking tequila (thank god for my
husband!)
We are happy and calm. We have very few disagreement and the only
outbursts are the result of allergies and can usually be pinpointed
directly.
Now, I have a challenge for you: Show me ONE place where I have insulted
anyone here.
Bridget
~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat
>control
>
> But others might see options other than just turning the TV into a
> issue between the parent and child, and there are LOTS of people onthis list
> who are successfully, happily and calmly unschooling. If you don'twant to
> hear their ideas or you bat them away with insults every time theycome, why
> would you want to be on this list?Who said TV was a control issue? I certainly didn't. I just said that
>
sometimes my son needs a little help in keeping it turned off. Just like
I sometimes need a little help not drinking tequila (thank god for my
husband!)
We are happy and calm. We have very few disagreement and the only
outbursts are the result of allergies and can usually be pinpointed
directly.
Now, I have a challenge for you: Show me ONE place where I have insulted
anyone here.
Bridget
~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/8/01 9:40:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:
and his brother are very active addicts. They grew up with their mother who
was not an addict, but an extremely controlling codependent. I worry about my
son and his genes for addiction, but I know controlling isn't the way to
handle them. In fact the first step in any recovery program is
surrender...i.e. giving up control, or the illusion of it.
I think if you're 'helping him stop', you're stepping in and changing what he
is choosing to do. If he's willing, that's fine, but if not, I think it's
controlling.
Those prone to addiction, I feel, need much more self awareness than external
control. I also have trouble stopping with tequila.
Brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom@... writes:
> Who said TV was a control issue? I certainly didn't. I just said thatI understand the genetic addiction thing. It's in my family as well. My ex
> sometimes my son needs a little help in keeping it turned off. Just like
> I sometimes need a little help not drinking tequila (thank god for my
> husband!)
>
and his brother are very active addicts. They grew up with their mother who
was not an addict, but an extremely controlling codependent. I worry about my
son and his genes for addiction, but I know controlling isn't the way to
handle them. In fact the first step in any recovery program is
surrender...i.e. giving up control, or the illusion of it.
I think if you're 'helping him stop', you're stepping in and changing what he
is choosing to do. If he's willing, that's fine, but if not, I think it's
controlling.
Those prone to addiction, I feel, need much more self awareness than external
control. I also have trouble stopping with tequila.
Brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bridget E Coffman
On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:34:40 EDT brendaclaspell@... writes:
understand himself and see that I am not controlling him but helping him
to regain the control he has lost to an addiction.
Bridget
~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat
>what he
>
> I think if you're 'helping him stop', you're stepping in and changing
> is choosing to do. If he's willing, that's fine, but if not, I thinkit's controlling.
>Overall, and with much time and patience, I think he is beginning to
understand himself and see that I am not controlling him but helping him
to regain the control he has lost to an addiction.
Bridget
~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat
[email protected]
<< Overall, and with much time and patience, I think he is beginning to
understand himself and see that I am not controlling him but helping him
to regain the control he has lost to an addiction. >>
If you yourself aren't sure of the definition of "controlling" you might not
be the best person to help your child understand and see that you are not
controlling him.
I've been in discussions in which parents who spanked said spanking wasn't
hitting.
They told their children they weren't hitting them. The children agreed with
them, because they didn't want to be not-hit, spanked any more.
If you tell him to turn it off, that is control.
Call it a hawk, call it a handsaw, it is control.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
understand himself and see that I am not controlling him but helping him
to regain the control he has lost to an addiction. >>
If you yourself aren't sure of the definition of "controlling" you might not
be the best person to help your child understand and see that you are not
controlling him.
I've been in discussions in which parents who spanked said spanking wasn't
hitting.
They told their children they weren't hitting them. The children agreed with
them, because they didn't want to be not-hit, spanked any more.
If you tell him to turn it off, that is control.
Call it a hawk, call it a handsaw, it is control.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
jefferson academy
> Unfortunately some unschoolers become as locked intoI'm new to unschooling, but have been wondering why
> and are as rigid about
> a
> definition as the 3Rs folks are. In doing so they
> forget that everyone is
> an
> individual.
unschoolers care who does or does not label themselves
an unschooler. Would a true unschooler (by the
strictest definition) be any less an unschooler if
they didn't call themselves an unschooler. And if an
'ecletic' homeschooler calls themselves an unschooler
- how are true unschoolers hurt? Why does everyone
seem to be so hung up on labels and who is and who is
not allowed to call themselves an unschooler? (Just wondering.)
=====
Michele
(mom of 5dd: Justice 22, Felicity 20, Christian 18, Grace 13, Elysian (Mia)2)
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[email protected]
In a message dated 9/9/01 6:38:55 PM, jeffersonacademy@... writes:
<< if an
'ecletic' homeschooler calls themselves an unschooler
- how are true unschoolers hurt? >>
Because it doesn't work like unschooling does, and people who say "I tried
unschooling but it didn't work" discourage others from ACTUALLY unschooling.
It's hard to describe what we're doing to people and why it works so well
with others around saying "It's okay to require math workbooks" or "Waiting
until a kid is eight to see if he'll learn to read on his own is fine, but
then I'd teach him!"
If someone says "Lamaze says..." and then misquotes, or "Maria Montessori
said..." and then misquotes, it will give others the wrong ideas about Lamaze
and Montessori.
I liked Joyce's analogy lots:
<< It might be playing around with unschooling but it wouldn't be
unschooling, just as eating vegetarian except for occasional meat isn't
vegetarianism. That doesn't mean an almost vegetarian can't hang around
absorbing information from vegetarians. But offering vegetable recipes that
contain animal products will get jumped on.>>
Sandra
<< if an
'ecletic' homeschooler calls themselves an unschooler
- how are true unschoolers hurt? >>
Because it doesn't work like unschooling does, and people who say "I tried
unschooling but it didn't work" discourage others from ACTUALLY unschooling.
It's hard to describe what we're doing to people and why it works so well
with others around saying "It's okay to require math workbooks" or "Waiting
until a kid is eight to see if he'll learn to read on his own is fine, but
then I'd teach him!"
If someone says "Lamaze says..." and then misquotes, or "Maria Montessori
said..." and then misquotes, it will give others the wrong ideas about Lamaze
and Montessori.
I liked Joyce's analogy lots:
<< It might be playing around with unschooling but it wouldn't be
unschooling, just as eating vegetarian except for occasional meat isn't
vegetarianism. That doesn't mean an almost vegetarian can't hang around
absorbing information from vegetarians. But offering vegetable recipes that
contain animal products will get jumped on.>>
Sandra