How to respond?
Janet F Hamlin
I was e-mailing a friend (who is also a teacher) the other day and I was trying to explain unschooling to her (and I included some examples from unschooling.com. This was her reply. Any thoughts from you veteran unschoolers with better explanations than I have? Thanks.
"Janet,
I'm not big on worksheet and paper-pencil settings either. I can see how
this way works, but I assume you don't do some type of assessment to see how
Caroline compares to others her age. I assume that she's ahead of her age
group but assessment of some type, even if it's be you, is needed. Parents
tend not to push a child in the areas that they are weak. Your method lets
the child choose what he/she wants to learn and how they want to approach
the learning process. That's great when he/she is in the early learning
stage (2 years-2nd grade) but it tends to get out of balance a little every
year after that. Children are very good at figuring out the parent's
system. If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balanced
learner, and teaches the child to learn in ways that aren't natural to that
particular child this system will work. Unfortunately, many people don't
use home-schooling, or un-schooling as you call it, appropriately. The
child suffers by becoming strong in areas of science and reading.....areas
that all children adore......but fall behind in math or language/writing
skills. They don't know what a preposition is and can't write an
intelligent paper. Some sort of assessment lets the parent know where they
need to devote more time to create a balanced learner. A smart parent will
use the interests of the child to teach the subjects that the child wouldn't
normally approach on their own. Just letting the child do whatever they
want and learn whatever they want is not a method that I would endorse. But
creating an atmosphere that is conducive to learning and leading the child
through the learning process is a method that I continually endorse. It is
a method that takes a lot of preparation on behalf of the parent......it is
not a method for the average lazy, stupid parent. If you do a good job, the
child will learn in the most natural way and the information that they learn
will be stored in their long term memory bank. Your article is interesting,
but having raised 4 children, it is seriously flawed in spots. I know that
you'll make it work, though. You're one of those smart parents that all
children wish they could have. Gotta go........bedtime
routine..........Chris is calling for help."
Janet, mom to Caroline, 6, and Thomas, almost 3!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Janet,
I'm not big on worksheet and paper-pencil settings either. I can see how
this way works, but I assume you don't do some type of assessment to see how
Caroline compares to others her age. I assume that she's ahead of her age
group but assessment of some type, even if it's be you, is needed. Parents
tend not to push a child in the areas that they are weak. Your method lets
the child choose what he/she wants to learn and how they want to approach
the learning process. That's great when he/she is in the early learning
stage (2 years-2nd grade) but it tends to get out of balance a little every
year after that. Children are very good at figuring out the parent's
system. If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balanced
learner, and teaches the child to learn in ways that aren't natural to that
particular child this system will work. Unfortunately, many people don't
use home-schooling, or un-schooling as you call it, appropriately. The
child suffers by becoming strong in areas of science and reading.....areas
that all children adore......but fall behind in math or language/writing
skills. They don't know what a preposition is and can't write an
intelligent paper. Some sort of assessment lets the parent know where they
need to devote more time to create a balanced learner. A smart parent will
use the interests of the child to teach the subjects that the child wouldn't
normally approach on their own. Just letting the child do whatever they
want and learn whatever they want is not a method that I would endorse. But
creating an atmosphere that is conducive to learning and leading the child
through the learning process is a method that I continually endorse. It is
a method that takes a lot of preparation on behalf of the parent......it is
not a method for the average lazy, stupid parent. If you do a good job, the
child will learn in the most natural way and the information that they learn
will be stored in their long term memory bank. Your article is interesting,
but having raised 4 children, it is seriously flawed in spots. I know that
you'll make it work, though. You're one of those smart parents that all
children wish they could have. Gotta go........bedtime
routine..........Chris is calling for help."
Janet, mom to Caroline, 6, and Thomas, almost 3!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
M and L Hand
Is there a law that in order to use good grammar, one needs to know what a preposition is called? I see no need to have the parts of speech labeled, if the child is expressing thoughts clearly.
My kids adore math, as well as science. Not so crazy about reading - and hate writing. I'm not sure she's correct about "what all kids" enjoy.
I think she has some valid points. A lazy, stupid parent may not be best suited to unschooling....but most lazy, stupid parents send their kids to PS anyway; right? That is the laziest way I know of to educate your kid...and I won't go quite as far as to say it is the most stupid way (I DO have two of mine in PS, but it isn't by choice!).
I don't think I've introduced myself here. I joined a few days ago. Those of you on CCU-list know me already. My oldest two are in public high school - though my daughter is a senior and only has a half-schedule (she only needs 4 credits this year) so we are homeschooling her the rest of the time.
Laurie
Mom to Kelly-17, Kerry-15, Katie-12, Korey-10, and Kacie-8
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My kids adore math, as well as science. Not so crazy about reading - and hate writing. I'm not sure she's correct about "what all kids" enjoy.
I think she has some valid points. A lazy, stupid parent may not be best suited to unschooling....but most lazy, stupid parents send their kids to PS anyway; right? That is the laziest way I know of to educate your kid...and I won't go quite as far as to say it is the most stupid way (I DO have two of mine in PS, but it isn't by choice!).
I don't think I've introduced myself here. I joined a few days ago. Those of you on CCU-list know me already. My oldest two are in public high school - though my daughter is a senior and only has a half-schedule (she only needs 4 credits this year) so we are homeschooling her the rest of the time.
Laurie
Mom to Kelly-17, Kerry-15, Katie-12, Korey-10, and Kacie-8
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
Well, she has described most children that come out of ps system, so what is
her point <g>
However, I have to disagree with her point about children loving reading and
science and hating math and writing. She is doing exactly what public
schools are so good at -- stereotyping, pigeon holing and using the word
ALL!
Most kids *love* one of those areas, like some of the others and may or may
not hate another area. Eldest daughter *loves* reading and writing, likes
math and hates science. Eldest son hated schooly type anything but loves
working with his hands and now, at age 30 has discovered reading. Second
son *loves* writing and has since he was old enough to hold a pencil. He is
o.k., with reading and math but hates science. Third son *hates* reading
but *loves* math and science and only touches a pencil when threatened with
death or not getting his check cashed <g> Next to youngest kidlet *hates*
math but *loves* science and is o.k. with reading and writing. Youngest
*loves* writing, writing and more writing and thinks math is too easy and
reading is o.k. but only if it is the right book. Science is o.k too if it
is about plants and animals. Oh, and as of today, chemistry as in cooking
And, hello, there is no right way to use homeschooling. That is one of the
points! And, I think perhaps that writing will not explain it to her, she
will have to experience a day with unschoolers and when it is one of "those"
days, she is going to wonder how the parent survives it! Personally, today
I am exhausted since they haven't stopped since 6:23 this morning!
Today was one of those days! Youngest found a math workbook and buzzed
through 58 pages (gee, I don't know why anyone doesn't like math, it is
soooo easy). She then went out and worked in her garden and asked a million
question about soils and asked for "the stuff that tells if the soil is
right." Then she headed for the dictionary because she wanted to be sure
she was using the right word when she put lawn clippings around her
strawberry plants (mulch, not munch <g>). Next was "baking" non-bake peanut
butter and oatmeal cookies and the million questions about how come some
cookies have to be baked and how come some don't. She then dug out an old
cookbook that includes a lot of simple chemistry type explanations of how
things work. She liked the part about the eggs the best. Gee fun, she
wants to try three ways to make an omelet tomorrow morning so she can see
which way puffs up the most and which way she likes the taste of the most.
Eldest at home kidlet was balancing his checkbook, then off to work and
after work was off to see about buying a car. He spent last night using
loan calculators to determine what he could afford and was using an
analyzing program he found to see what it would cost him in a year to
operate various models. He then headed down to the library to check out
Chilton's to see how hard the various models would be to work on himself.
Then he sound some thingy on the net that tells average life spans etc. on
various models.
Middle at home kidlet was busy with his paper route and figuring what he was
getting paid if it was by the hour and how long it is going to take him to
save up enough money to buy his very own personal computer (he doesn't like
to share). He came home and plopped when he was done, made his lunch,
grabbed a book and "chilled." Then he was off to visit a friend who is
going to work with him on a science fair project for next year. They have
already bought the hardware they need and are now working out the backboard
design. They have been busy reading science journals, science fair project
books and various books on electricity and steam. They already have a draft
booklet in the computer ready to print and proof that they plan to hang on
their backboard. They both came home for dinner and then put up the tent in
the backyard. They set up the telescope and are hoping it stays clear until
it is really dark. They have his sky star chart set up and are going to see
how many more of the stars they can find and identify.
As to ages, well, they don't fit into the 2-2nd grade. They are 9, 13 and
17.
Lynda
her point <g>
However, I have to disagree with her point about children loving reading and
science and hating math and writing. She is doing exactly what public
schools are so good at -- stereotyping, pigeon holing and using the word
ALL!
Most kids *love* one of those areas, like some of the others and may or may
not hate another area. Eldest daughter *loves* reading and writing, likes
math and hates science. Eldest son hated schooly type anything but loves
working with his hands and now, at age 30 has discovered reading. Second
son *loves* writing and has since he was old enough to hold a pencil. He is
o.k., with reading and math but hates science. Third son *hates* reading
but *loves* math and science and only touches a pencil when threatened with
death or not getting his check cashed <g> Next to youngest kidlet *hates*
math but *loves* science and is o.k. with reading and writing. Youngest
*loves* writing, writing and more writing and thinks math is too easy and
reading is o.k. but only if it is the right book. Science is o.k too if it
is about plants and animals. Oh, and as of today, chemistry as in cooking
And, hello, there is no right way to use homeschooling. That is one of the
points! And, I think perhaps that writing will not explain it to her, she
will have to experience a day with unschoolers and when it is one of "those"
days, she is going to wonder how the parent survives it! Personally, today
I am exhausted since they haven't stopped since 6:23 this morning!
Today was one of those days! Youngest found a math workbook and buzzed
through 58 pages (gee, I don't know why anyone doesn't like math, it is
soooo easy). She then went out and worked in her garden and asked a million
question about soils and asked for "the stuff that tells if the soil is
right." Then she headed for the dictionary because she wanted to be sure
she was using the right word when she put lawn clippings around her
strawberry plants (mulch, not munch <g>). Next was "baking" non-bake peanut
butter and oatmeal cookies and the million questions about how come some
cookies have to be baked and how come some don't. She then dug out an old
cookbook that includes a lot of simple chemistry type explanations of how
things work. She liked the part about the eggs the best. Gee fun, she
wants to try three ways to make an omelet tomorrow morning so she can see
which way puffs up the most and which way she likes the taste of the most.
Eldest at home kidlet was balancing his checkbook, then off to work and
after work was off to see about buying a car. He spent last night using
loan calculators to determine what he could afford and was using an
analyzing program he found to see what it would cost him in a year to
operate various models. He then headed down to the library to check out
Chilton's to see how hard the various models would be to work on himself.
Then he sound some thingy on the net that tells average life spans etc. on
various models.
Middle at home kidlet was busy with his paper route and figuring what he was
getting paid if it was by the hour and how long it is going to take him to
save up enough money to buy his very own personal computer (he doesn't like
to share). He came home and plopped when he was done, made his lunch,
grabbed a book and "chilled." Then he was off to visit a friend who is
going to work with him on a science fair project for next year. They have
already bought the hardware they need and are now working out the backboard
design. They have been busy reading science journals, science fair project
books and various books on electricity and steam. They already have a draft
booklet in the computer ready to print and proof that they plan to hang on
their backboard. They both came home for dinner and then put up the tent in
the backyard. They set up the telescope and are hoping it stays clear until
it is really dark. They have his sky star chart set up and are going to see
how many more of the stars they can find and identify.
As to ages, well, they don't fit into the 2-2nd grade. They are 9, 13 and
17.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Janet F Hamlin <jefhdvm@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:46 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] How to respond?
> I was e-mailing a friend (who is also a teacher) the other day and I was
trying to explain unschooling to her (and I included some examples from
unschooling.com. This was her reply. Any thoughts from you veteran
unschoolers with better explanations than I have? Thanks.
>
> "Janet,
> I'm not big on worksheet and paper-pencil settings either. I can see how
> this way works, but I assume you don't do some type of assessment to see
how
> Caroline compares to others her age. I assume that she's ahead of her
age
> group but assessment of some type, even if it's be you, is needed.
Parents
> tend not to push a child in the areas that they are weak. Your method
lets
> the child choose what he/she wants to learn and how they want to approach
> the learning process. That's great when he/she is in the early learning
> stage (2 years-2nd grade) but it tends to get out of balance a little
every
> year after that. Children are very good at figuring out the parent's
> system. If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balanced
> learner, and teaches the child to learn in ways that aren't natural to
that
> particular child this system will work. Unfortunately, many people don't
> use home-schooling, or un-schooling as you call it, appropriately. The
> child suffers by becoming strong in areas of science and reading.....areas
> that all children adore......but fall behind in math or language/writing
> skills. They don't know what a preposition is and can't write an
> intelligent paper. Some sort of assessment lets the parent know where
they
> need to devote more time to create a balanced learner. A smart parent
will
> use the interests of the child to teach the subjects that the child
wouldn't
> normally approach on their own. Just letting the child do whatever they
> want and learn whatever they want is not a method that I would endorse.
But
> creating an atmosphere that is conducive to learning and leading the child
> through the learning process is a method that I continually endorse. It
is
> a method that takes a lot of preparation on behalf of the parent......it
is
> not a method for the average lazy, stupid parent. If you do a good job,
the
> child will learn in the most natural way and the information that they
learn
> will be stored in their long term memory bank. Your article is
interesting,
> but having raised 4 children, it is seriously flawed in spots. I know
that
> you'll make it work, though. You're one of those smart parents that all
> children wish they could have. Gotta go........bedtime
> routine..........Chris is calling for help."
>
>
> Janet, mom to Caroline, 6, and Thomas, almost 3!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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LisaBugg
> I was e-mailing a friend (who is also a teacher) the other day and I wastrying to explain unschooling to her (and I included some examples from
unschooling.com. This was her reply. Any thoughts from you veteran
unschoolers with better explanations than I have? Thanks.
>how
> "Janet,
> I'm not big on worksheet and paper-pencil settings either. I can see how
> this way works, but I assume you don't do some type of assessment to see
> Caroline compares to others her age. I assume that she's ahead of herage
> group but assessment of some type, even if it's be you, is needed.Why? What is it needed for? I, as the parent of my children, do not need
to know where they stand in the relation to the pack. It holds no interest
whatsoever for me. And the only time I see it impacting the children is
when they want to apply to college. ACT/SAT scores seem to still be a
necessary evil for college. Where they stood in 3rd grade in relation to
other 3rd graders is a waste of my and their time.
(even if it be you?)
Parents
> tend not to push a child in the areas that they are weak.How does she know this? Is this from years of teaching, where parents do
not feel it's their job, but rather the person they are employing to teach?
How many homeschooling parents does she know?
Your method lets
> the child choose what he/she wants to learn and how they want to approachevery
> the learning process. That's great when he/she is in the early learning
> stage (2 years-2nd grade) but it tends to get out of balance a little
> year after that.Again, how would she know this? How many unschooled children has she watched
over the years?
And of course I could talk all day about *balanced children*. I don't want
that. I want children who are passionate, you love living and doing things.
I want children to explore their world. I do not want them becoming bland,
sheep-like consumers. This everyone needs to be the same is like chicken
and dumplings. Filling and bland.
Children are very good at figuring out the parent's
> system. If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balancedthat
> learner, and teaches the child to learn in ways that aren't natural to
> particular child this system will work.What? This seems convoluted to me. The child is going to figure out the
parents *system* and even if a parent uses something that is not natural for
that child it will work, but yet she's talking about unschooling where the
children choose the method of learning????? Makes no sense.
Unfortunately, many people don't
> use home-schooling, or un-schooling as you call it, appropriately.She needs to define what she considers appropiate. Only then will you know
what to counter. And.. well... who made her the person to figure out what
is appropiate for other families?
The
> child suffers by becoming strong in areas of science and reading.....areasAgain, this is a personal bias. Not ALL children adore reading or science.
> that all children adore......but fall behind in math or language/writing
> skills. They don't know what a preposition is and can't write an
> intelligent paper.
Certainly not all of mine do. Knowing or not knowing what a preposition is,
is not a measuring stick for a well-educated person, and certainly not the
measure of a balanced child. Knowing how to write well is a wonderful
thing, something most of our children will learn to do at some point. The
kicker is that not all children will want to learn the same skills at the
same time.
Some sort of assessment lets the parent know where they
> need to devote more time to create a balanced learner.Living with a child 24/7 will tell you much more than a paper and pencil
assessment. Especially when that assessment which is created by some other
adult with their own bias of what is and is not important knowlege.
A smart parent will
> use the interests of the child to teach the subjects that the childwouldn't
> normally approach on their own.Sigh. She's not listening to you or even thinking about alternative values.
I simply do not value all school subjects equally.
Just letting the child do whatever they
> want and learn whatever they want is not a method that I would endorse.She's not listening. Equating *doing whatever they want* with *learning
whatever they want*, is simply a failure to comprehend. She's using
emotionaly charged language to place shame or guilt.
But
> creating an atmosphere that is conducive to learning and leading the childShe's a teacher, how can she not see her position as important. If children
> through the learning process is a method that I continually endorse.
don't need *leading*, then what has she done with her life?
It is
> a method that takes a lot of preparation on behalf of the parent......itis
> not a method for the average lazy, stupid parent. If you do a good job,the
> child will learn in the most natural way and the information that theylearn
> will be stored in their long term memory bank.ROTF. Ask her how many 12th graders she knows who can remember their 9th
grade civics lessons. IF this were true, why do we have milllions upon
millions of high school graduates who can't remember anything from 12 years
of history classes?
Your article is interesting,
> but having raised 4 children, it is seriously flawed in spots. I knowthat
> you'll make it work, though. You're one of those smart parents that allAnd those spots are areas where she has no experience. Parenting is
> children wish they could have.
something we all do, whether we unschool are not. She's conflating what
parents do for their children with the idea of standards in education. The
integration of expectations is inherent in our daily lives. For her,
expectations have been distilled and pasteurized right out of the body,
until all that is left is bland, mediocre, skill checklists that of course
no one, especially children, would never choose naturally.
Julie Stauffer
<<average, lazy stupid parent>>
Personally, I don't find the average parent, particularly the average
unschooling parent, to be lazy and stupid.
A 2 yo will spend a tremendous amount of time attempting to do any number of
things that are difficult for him, dressing himself, speaking English, potty
training. Why is it that we assume this same child will suddenly have no
interest in a challenge when he becomes of the age to go to ps?
I also have to question the need for EVERYONE to know what a preposition is
and to question the presumption that the knowledge of the name of a type of
word is somehow necessary to be able to USE the type of word. For example,
I have a master's degree, actually even a bachelor of science degree and
never took physics. I had never heard of Newton's Laws of Motion but from
my martial arts training was quite familiar with the ideas behind them and
how they work. I am quite at home with the concepts, just never knew they
had a name.
Also, if a child NEEDS to do something, the child will learn how to do it,
barring some handicap. If a child doesn't learn their multiplication tables
at age 10, perhaps a 10 yo doesn't NEED to know multiplication tables.
Julie
Personally, I don't find the average parent, particularly the average
unschooling parent, to be lazy and stupid.
A 2 yo will spend a tremendous amount of time attempting to do any number of
things that are difficult for him, dressing himself, speaking English, potty
training. Why is it that we assume this same child will suddenly have no
interest in a challenge when he becomes of the age to go to ps?
I also have to question the need for EVERYONE to know what a preposition is
and to question the presumption that the knowledge of the name of a type of
word is somehow necessary to be able to USE the type of word. For example,
I have a master's degree, actually even a bachelor of science degree and
never took physics. I had never heard of Newton's Laws of Motion but from
my martial arts training was quite familiar with the ideas behind them and
how they work. I am quite at home with the concepts, just never knew they
had a name.
Also, if a child NEEDS to do something, the child will learn how to do it,
barring some handicap. If a child doesn't learn their multiplication tables
at age 10, perhaps a 10 yo doesn't NEED to know multiplication tables.
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 08/22/2001 2:47:28 AM !!!First Boot!!!, jefhdvm@...
writes:
relevant to me. We all do it to some extent, of course. But it's not the
measure of learning.
I assume that she's ahead of her age
when that is clearly his weakness but I do encourage him to think and play
with math concepts and read everything -- his strengths.
Your method lets
I'm not forcing them to do things they strongly dislike and they aren't
trying to get around me. I save those battles for cleaning up the living
room! Even then, my mantra is that we all live here -- together!
If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balanced
They don't know what a preposition is and can't write an
If you do a good job, the
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> "Janet,**No, not actually. Comparing my kids to others their age doesn't seem
> I'm not big on worksheet and paper-pencil settings either. I can see how
> this way works, but I assume you don't do some type of assessment to see how
> Caroline compares to others her age.
relevant to me. We all do it to some extent, of course. But it's not the
measure of learning.
I assume that she's ahead of her age
> group but assessment of some type, even if it's be you, is needed. Parents**Correct. I don't insist that my son, for instance, labor with handwriting
> tend not to push a child in the areas that they are weak.
when that is clearly his weakness but I do encourage him to think and play
with math concepts and read everything -- his strengths.
Your method lets
> the child choose what he/she wants to learn and how they want to approach**We're not adversaries in this. The parents and kids are working together.
> the learning process. That's great when he/she is in the early learning
> stage (2 years-2nd grade) but it tends to get out of balance a little every
> year after that. Children are very good at figuring out the parent's
> system.
I'm not forcing them to do things they strongly dislike and they aren't
trying to get around me. I save those battles for cleaning up the living
room! Even then, my mantra is that we all live here -- together!
If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balanced
> learner, and teaches the child to learn in ways that aren't natural to that**Well, this week is shaping up to be heavy on science -- I admit it!
> particular child this system will work. Unfortunately, many people don't
> use home-schooling, or un-schooling as you call it, appropriately. The
> child suffers by becoming strong in areas of science and reading.....areas
> that all children adore......but fall behind in math or language/writing
> skills.
They don't know what a preposition is and can't write an
> intelligent paper. Some sort of assessment lets the parent know where they**Nah -- I'll stick with no comment on this one.
> need to devote more time to create a balanced learner. A smart parent will
> use the interests of the child to teach the subjects that the child wouldn't
> normally approach on their own. Just letting the child do whatever they
> want and learn whatever they want is not a method that I would endorse. But
> creating an atmosphere that is conducive to learning and leading the child
> through the learning process is a method that I continually endorse. It is
> a method that takes a lot of preparation on behalf of the parent......it is
> not a method for the average lazy, stupid parent.
If you do a good job, the
> child will learn in the most natural way and the information that they learn**Well, she probably wouldn't approve of my "bedtime routine" either.
> will be stored in their long term memory bank. Your article is interesting,
> but having raised 4 children, it is seriously flawed in spots. I know that
> you'll make it work, though. You're one of those smart parents that all
> children wish they could have. Gotta go........bedtime
> routine..........Chris is calling for help."
>
>
>
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
How close a friend is this? It's interesting how she intersperses her
insulting comments with ingratiating ones like "I assume she's ahead of her
age group" and "You're one of those smart parents". Anyway, here's my take:
"assessment of some type, even if it's be you (sic), is needed" Why?
Because that's the way they do it at school? Why is it important that my
child compare in any way with any other child?
"it tends to get out of balance a little every year after that" What is she
basing this on? As a teacher and a parent who apparently sent her own
children to school, I can't imagine she has any anecdotal evidence to
support this. Does she know other children (besides your own) who
homeschool? Have their lives floundered after 2nd grade? What is it that
happens to the brain at age 8 that she bases this opinion on?
"many people don't use home-schooling...appropriately" Who defines what is
appropriate for my child? Oh, that's right, my child and I do.
"science and reading...areas that all children adore" I'm not sure this is
worthy of comment. Sounds like a pretty broad generalization. Kind of like
saying the "average lazy stupid parent". Must be nice to feel so superior
to all the parents who leave their children in her care.
"they don't know what a preposition is" Who cares? Can they communicate
with others? Are they passionate about their lives? Are they joyful and
healthy? Are they compassionate?
"if you do a good job, the child will learn in the most natural way and the
information that they learn will be stored in their long term memory bank"
What is she proposing is the most natural way to learn? Having someone
else decide what you should know, try to make you interested enough to
listen to the information, and then testing you on what you've retained?
Should we look up natural in the dictionary for her?
"having raised four children" does not make you an expert on ANYTHING, and
having sent those four children to school certainly does not make you an
authority on homeschooling.
It seems to me that your friend feels the need to justify what she has done
with her life by belittling the choices you have made in yours. I doubt
that anything you say in response is going to change her opinions. In my
own life, I love to answer questions from those who are truly interested in
understanding what we are doing and why, but choose to ignore questions from
people who just want to tell me we're wrong. It just seems like a waste of
my time and energy, and I'd rather be playing with my kids.
~Rue
-----Original Message-----
From: Janet F Hamlin [mailto:jefhdvm@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] How to respond?
I was e-mailing a friend (who is also a teacher) the other day and I was
trying to explain unschooling to her (and I included some examples from
unschooling.com. This was her reply. Any thoughts from you veteran
unschoolers with better explanations than I have? Thanks.
"Janet,
I'm not big on worksheet and paper-pencil settings either. I can see how
this way works, but I assume you don't do some type of assessment to see how
Caroline compares to others her age. I assume that she's ahead of her age
group but assessment of some type, even if it's be you, is needed. Parents
tend not to push a child in the areas that they are weak. Your method lets
the child choose what he/she wants to learn and how they want to approach
the learning process. That's great when he/she is in the early learning
stage (2 years-2nd grade) but it tends to get out of balance a little every
year after that. Children are very good at figuring out the parent's
system. If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balanced
learner, and teaches the child to learn in ways that aren't natural to that
particular child this system will work. Unfortunately, many people don't
use home-schooling, or un-schooling as you call it, appropriately. The
child suffers by becoming strong in areas of science and reading.....areas
that all children adore......but fall behind in math or language/writing
skills. They don't know what a preposition is and can't write an
intelligent paper. Some sort of assessment lets the parent know where they
need to devote more time to create a balanced learner. A smart parent will
use the interests of the child to teach the subjects that the child wouldn't
normally approach on their own. Just letting the child do whatever they
want and learn whatever they want is not a method that I would endorse. But
creating an atmosphere that is conducive to learning and leading the child
through the learning process is a method that I continually endorse. It is
a method that takes a lot of preparation on behalf of the parent......it is
not a method for the average lazy, stupid parent. If you do a good job, the
child will learn in the most natural way and the information that they learn
will be stored in their long term memory bank. Your article is interesting,
but having raised 4 children, it is seriously flawed in spots. I know that
you'll make it work, though. You're one of those smart parents that all
children wish they could have. Gotta go........bedtime
routine..........Chris is calling for help."
Janet, mom to Caroline, 6, and Thomas, almost 3!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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insulting comments with ingratiating ones like "I assume she's ahead of her
age group" and "You're one of those smart parents". Anyway, here's my take:
"assessment of some type, even if it's be you (sic), is needed" Why?
Because that's the way they do it at school? Why is it important that my
child compare in any way with any other child?
"it tends to get out of balance a little every year after that" What is she
basing this on? As a teacher and a parent who apparently sent her own
children to school, I can't imagine she has any anecdotal evidence to
support this. Does she know other children (besides your own) who
homeschool? Have their lives floundered after 2nd grade? What is it that
happens to the brain at age 8 that she bases this opinion on?
"many people don't use home-schooling...appropriately" Who defines what is
appropriate for my child? Oh, that's right, my child and I do.
"science and reading...areas that all children adore" I'm not sure this is
worthy of comment. Sounds like a pretty broad generalization. Kind of like
saying the "average lazy stupid parent". Must be nice to feel so superior
to all the parents who leave their children in her care.
"they don't know what a preposition is" Who cares? Can they communicate
with others? Are they passionate about their lives? Are they joyful and
healthy? Are they compassionate?
"if you do a good job, the child will learn in the most natural way and the
information that they learn will be stored in their long term memory bank"
What is she proposing is the most natural way to learn? Having someone
else decide what you should know, try to make you interested enough to
listen to the information, and then testing you on what you've retained?
Should we look up natural in the dictionary for her?
"having raised four children" does not make you an expert on ANYTHING, and
having sent those four children to school certainly does not make you an
authority on homeschooling.
It seems to me that your friend feels the need to justify what she has done
with her life by belittling the choices you have made in yours. I doubt
that anything you say in response is going to change her opinions. In my
own life, I love to answer questions from those who are truly interested in
understanding what we are doing and why, but choose to ignore questions from
people who just want to tell me we're wrong. It just seems like a waste of
my time and energy, and I'd rather be playing with my kids.
~Rue
-----Original Message-----
From: Janet F Hamlin [mailto:jefhdvm@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] How to respond?
I was e-mailing a friend (who is also a teacher) the other day and I was
trying to explain unschooling to her (and I included some examples from
unschooling.com. This was her reply. Any thoughts from you veteran
unschoolers with better explanations than I have? Thanks.
"Janet,
I'm not big on worksheet and paper-pencil settings either. I can see how
this way works, but I assume you don't do some type of assessment to see how
Caroline compares to others her age. I assume that she's ahead of her age
group but assessment of some type, even if it's be you, is needed. Parents
tend not to push a child in the areas that they are weak. Your method lets
the child choose what he/she wants to learn and how they want to approach
the learning process. That's great when he/she is in the early learning
stage (2 years-2nd grade) but it tends to get out of balance a little every
year after that. Children are very good at figuring out the parent's
system. If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balanced
learner, and teaches the child to learn in ways that aren't natural to that
particular child this system will work. Unfortunately, many people don't
use home-schooling, or un-schooling as you call it, appropriately. The
child suffers by becoming strong in areas of science and reading.....areas
that all children adore......but fall behind in math or language/writing
skills. They don't know what a preposition is and can't write an
intelligent paper. Some sort of assessment lets the parent know where they
need to devote more time to create a balanced learner. A smart parent will
use the interests of the child to teach the subjects that the child wouldn't
normally approach on their own. Just letting the child do whatever they
want and learn whatever they want is not a method that I would endorse. But
creating an atmosphere that is conducive to learning and leading the child
through the learning process is a method that I continually endorse. It is
a method that takes a lot of preparation on behalf of the parent......it is
not a method for the average lazy, stupid parent. If you do a good job, the
child will learn in the most natural way and the information that they learn
will be stored in their long term memory bank. Your article is interesting,
but having raised 4 children, it is seriously flawed in spots. I know that
you'll make it work, though. You're one of those smart parents that all
children wish they could have. Gotta go........bedtime
routine..........Chris is calling for help."
Janet, mom to Caroline, 6, and Thomas, almost 3!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
Janet,
First you might ask your friend if she's read any John Holt. If she never
heard of him, ask what school reform writings she was assigned to read in
college, or what she is reading now on her own, for fun. Paths of Learning
is a fairly new magazine about alternatives in education which is written
with a tone professionals can respect and appreciate. If you can afford to
(and care to) you might give her a subscription for a gift (I don't know how
close the friendship is or how much you want to invest in her future <g>).
<< Children are very good at figuring out the parent's
system. >>
This assumes an antagonism between parent and child.
It assumes that a child's goal will be not to learn.
<<If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balanced
learner, and teaches the child to learn in ways that aren't natural to that
particular child this system will work.>>
You don't teach people to learn.
<<Unfortunately, many people don't
use home-schooling, or un-schooling as you call it, appropriately. The
child suffers by becoming strong in areas of science and reading.....areas
that all children adore......but fall behind in math or language/writing
skills. >>
Not all children adore science and reading. MANY adore math and language.
Sounds very, very subjective.
<<Some sort of assessment lets the parent know where they
need to devote more time to create a balanced learner. >>
Jargon.
"Create a balanced learner" must be some current catchphrase or she wouldn't
have used it twice in so short a space.
<<A smart parent will
use the interests of the child to teach the subjects that the child wouldn't
normally approach on their own. >>
Ooooh... an implication that if you don't take her advice you're not smart,
I'm thinking.
And obviously a total blindness to the idea that a parent won't need to
"teach subjects."
<<Just letting the child do whatever they
want and learn whatever they want is not a method that I would endorse. >>
Nobody would until they had really read and thought and seen it in action.
<<it is not a method for the average lazy, stupid parent>>
I think that's true, but I'm not sure the average parent is lazy and stupid.
I'm sure many teachers think so, and need to think so.
<<Your article is interesting,
but having raised 4 children, it is seriously flawed in spots. >>
Having put four children in school.
If one's still needing help at bedtime, they're not all raised. (Maybe four
are grown and one or more are still at home...)
One last thing from me on a first pass: << I assume that she's ahead of her
age
group but assessment of some type, even if it's be you, is needed.>>
"Assessment EVEN if by you" is unintentionally insulting, and shows the
myopic vision of someone on the far side of a classroomful, a schoolful of
children, forgetting that when a child is at home with the parent, assessment
would reveal few mysteries. Parents know if children can read and write and
do math, because they're doing them. Parents know whether their children can
use a phone book or index because they do it.
Now I'm going to read the other responses to see if they agreed with me.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
First you might ask your friend if she's read any John Holt. If she never
heard of him, ask what school reform writings she was assigned to read in
college, or what she is reading now on her own, for fun. Paths of Learning
is a fairly new magazine about alternatives in education which is written
with a tone professionals can respect and appreciate. If you can afford to
(and care to) you might give her a subscription for a gift (I don't know how
close the friendship is or how much you want to invest in her future <g>).
<< Children are very good at figuring out the parent's
system. >>
This assumes an antagonism between parent and child.
It assumes that a child's goal will be not to learn.
<<If the parent has a plan of action that creates a well-balanced
learner, and teaches the child to learn in ways that aren't natural to that
particular child this system will work.>>
You don't teach people to learn.
<<Unfortunately, many people don't
use home-schooling, or un-schooling as you call it, appropriately. The
child suffers by becoming strong in areas of science and reading.....areas
that all children adore......but fall behind in math or language/writing
skills. >>
Not all children adore science and reading. MANY adore math and language.
Sounds very, very subjective.
<<Some sort of assessment lets the parent know where they
need to devote more time to create a balanced learner. >>
Jargon.
"Create a balanced learner" must be some current catchphrase or she wouldn't
have used it twice in so short a space.
<<A smart parent will
use the interests of the child to teach the subjects that the child wouldn't
normally approach on their own. >>
Ooooh... an implication that if you don't take her advice you're not smart,
I'm thinking.
And obviously a total blindness to the idea that a parent won't need to
"teach subjects."
<<Just letting the child do whatever they
want and learn whatever they want is not a method that I would endorse. >>
Nobody would until they had really read and thought and seen it in action.
<<it is not a method for the average lazy, stupid parent>>
I think that's true, but I'm not sure the average parent is lazy and stupid.
I'm sure many teachers think so, and need to think so.
<<Your article is interesting,
but having raised 4 children, it is seriously flawed in spots. >>
Having put four children in school.
If one's still needing help at bedtime, they're not all raised. (Maybe four
are grown and one or more are still at home...)
One last thing from me on a first pass: << I assume that she's ahead of her
age
group but assessment of some type, even if it's be you, is needed.>>
"Assessment EVEN if by you" is unintentionally insulting, and shows the
myopic vision of someone on the far side of a classroomful, a schoolful of
children, forgetting that when a child is at home with the parent, assessment
would reveal few mysteries. Parents know if children can read and write and
do math, because they're doing them. Parents know whether their children can
use a phone book or index because they do it.
Now I'm going to read the other responses to see if they agreed with me.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Tracy Oldfield
This whole email (I'm not going near the lazy and
stupid bit, does she think that's what unschoolers
are???) is rife with the doctrine of the 'broad and
balanced' curriculum, but that's just the total
opposite of what most people are. Isn't it the point
of unschooling for children to develop in ways
appropriate to them? Which ain't gonna be broad and
balanced, they're gonna be completely individual to
that child, surely? It's funny, really... British
education law has the phrase 'suitable according to
age, aptitude and ability' as part of the requirements
of education... yet we have a National Curriculum for
state-schools... summat up with this picture???
And people ask me why my child isn't in school...
Tracy
I was e-mailing a friend (who is also a teacher) the
other day and I was trying to explain unschooling to
her (and I included some examples from
unschooling.com. This was her reply. Any thoughts
from you veteran unschoolers with better explanations
than I have? Thanks.
stupid bit, does she think that's what unschoolers
are???) is rife with the doctrine of the 'broad and
balanced' curriculum, but that's just the total
opposite of what most people are. Isn't it the point
of unschooling for children to develop in ways
appropriate to them? Which ain't gonna be broad and
balanced, they're gonna be completely individual to
that child, surely? It's funny, really... British
education law has the phrase 'suitable according to
age, aptitude and ability' as part of the requirements
of education... yet we have a National Curriculum for
state-schools... summat up with this picture???
And people ask me why my child isn't in school...
Tracy
I was e-mailing a friend (who is also a teacher) the
other day and I was trying to explain unschooling to
her (and I included some examples from
unschooling.com. This was her reply. Any thoughts
from you veteran unschoolers with better explanations
than I have? Thanks.
[email protected]
I'm new to this list; just in time to see the letter from the teacher.
She has been trained to think the way she does. She may not know what
real learning is if she has failed to further investigate, question and
explore her own education. If looking into the faces of her own amazing
children hasn't inspired her to wonder whether there is something better
in store for them, nothing we say here will make a difference.
She clearly has no real respect for children if she believes they cannot
learn without being forced to, and she definitely has no respect for
parents. Another good reason to keep our kids of public school. There
is no response that can reach a closed mind.
Deb L
She has been trained to think the way she does. She may not know what
real learning is if she has failed to further investigate, question and
explore her own education. If looking into the faces of her own amazing
children hasn't inspired her to wonder whether there is something better
in store for them, nothing we say here will make a difference.
She clearly has no real respect for children if she believes they cannot
learn without being forced to, and she definitely has no respect for
parents. Another good reason to keep our kids of public school. There
is no response that can reach a closed mind.
Deb L
mum2alxnck
I am new to this list, and have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of your emails:o) I home educate 3 children, Alex (6), Nicky (5) and Paul (1). I mean home educate, not home school b/c we don't do "school at home".
The email from your friend was odd, from what I can tell she thinks unschooling is inherently stupid but is leary of hurting your feelings- so instead she goes back an forth between bashing unschooling and telling you she isn't bashing you b/c you are such a smart, caring parent. Lol. If I had to respond to the letter, I would simply say "time will tell". Homeschooling was thought to be harmful to children's education at first, now homeschooling is great for education but harmful to the community (bad for public schools). I would further quote books/magazines/articles written by parents who have grown unschooled children.
Good luck! It is sooo hard to disagree with a friend on something so close to your heart.
~Sarah Davis
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The email from your friend was odd, from what I can tell she thinks unschooling is inherently stupid but is leary of hurting your feelings- so instead she goes back an forth between bashing unschooling and telling you she isn't bashing you b/c you are such a smart, caring parent. Lol. If I had to respond to the letter, I would simply say "time will tell". Homeschooling was thought to be harmful to children's education at first, now homeschooling is great for education but harmful to the community (bad for public schools). I would further quote books/magazines/articles written by parents who have grown unschooled children.
Good luck! It is sooo hard to disagree with a friend on something so close to your heart.
~Sarah Davis
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<It seems to me that your friend feels the need to justify what she has done
with her life by belittling the choices you have made in yours. >
Well said.
When I asked Kenna's opinion on the email she couldn't find the words but she told me to just yell at her some more, make her feel stupid. So even at 13 she picked up on the fact that the original poster was trying to make her feel stupid about unschooling.
Joy in NM
...
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with her life by belittling the choices you have made in yours. >
Well said.
When I asked Kenna's opinion on the email she couldn't find the words but she told me to just yell at her some more, make her feel stupid. So even at 13 she picked up on the fact that the original poster was trying to make her feel stupid about unschooling.
Joy in NM
...
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janet F Hamlin
Am I the one who just doesn't get it? I thought I was answering her questions and making points, and now I'm defensive? How would you all handle this from here? I am beating my head against a wall.....
Janet
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janet
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janet F Hamlin
I continued the dialog with my friend and here is what I wrote and her replies. If anything sounds familiar it is because I have learned so much from you all here, from Sandra and Joyce and others. :) I feel like I have explained myself very well but I don't think she understands at all.
*******
I was also a bit skeptical of unschooling until I did more reading and research. And now, having done it for 7 years <g> watching how both of my children learn and how they process information, I wouldn't have it any other way. I can tailor the way I present information to their individual learning styles. Have you read any books by John Holt or John Taylor Gatto?
I don't believe that there is a set body of knowledge that everyone needs to learn, in a set order, over a period of months or years. Imagine a sheet of paper representing all of the knowledge in the world. Now place a dot on the paper. This is what schools have deemed important. But what if my dot is across the page? And my child's dot is in yet another place? A child immersed in the world can make connections between history and math and science, and connect their own dots. Not everyone is a scientist. Not everyone is a writer. Not everyone is an athlete. Not everyone wants or needs to go to college (depends upon their field of interest). A child (especially an older child or teen) who immerses himself/herself into a topic of choice (be it marine biology, art, ancient Egypt, or even Pokemon or Nintendo), over time, will cover all of the basic "subjects" ie reading, math, history,science, geography, etc. Because one thing leads to another, to another, etc. It happens naturally. And things learned this way are learned for life. They are not studied to be tested on an then forgotten. Think of the knowledge you use on a daily basis in your normal activities. How much did you learn in school? How much did you learn on your own because you were interested? How much did you learn in school but forgot (ie what was the war of 1812 about?) but you know where to look up the information if you ever needed it? You remember the things you need to know and the things that interest you, and the rest is forgotten.
My kids are exposed to all kinds of things every day. We have tons of books, resources, and materials that they can use. We go to the aquarium. Sturbridge Village (a history museum of America in the 1830's). The Science Center. The children's museum. State parks. Camping. The post office. The library. Swimming lessons. Ice skating lessons. Homeschool playgroups. The phone guy adding a new phone line. Looking in the microscope a worm eggs. Watching surgery. Discussions about all kinds of things happen throughout the day. Spelling, math, history, geography, etc. It's fun to see even Thomas making connections.
Unschooling is trusting in a child's natural curiosity to teach them what they need to know. The parent is there to answer questions, talk, infect the kids by their own curiosity about life! (though curious about what they're interested rather in what you think would be good for the them to be interested in!), and surround them with lots of resources and supplies.
The hard parts are 1) trusting natural curiosity to draw your child to what they need to learn when. Math is fascinating when you can see how it relates to every day living; 2) trusting your child's natural schedule rather than the school imposed one (eg, that the child will read eventually even if they aren't doing so at 7, they will multiply even if they aren't doing it at 9); 3) trusting that it's okay for kids to learn things out of order! It doesn't bother kids at all to pick up interesting tidbits about Thomas Jefferson, knightly armor, Egyptian mummies, WW2 combat planes. They make their own connections as they get more and more things in place. (Later, an orderly approach will be fascinating to them as they can make even more connections.); 4) seeing real learning that is right there all around you, for example, the things that need sorted, the cookies to divide, the planning for a party that are all real live math. And it's especially tough to trust that those few minutes of real engaged figuring are worth 20 pages of worksheet practice.
I appreciate your input. I know where Caroline's strengths and weaknesses are and I find creative ways to encourage her in those weak areas by sneaking it into something she's interested in. She is very strong in math, science, and geography, right on target with reading but way ahead in comprehension, and very weak with her handwriting. So far it's working for us. However, we have also seen it work fabulously in the adult world. Allen taught himself to program computers. By reading, doing, and asking questions of those who knew how. Then he took a 6 week computer course, and since then has taught himself several more languages with which to code. The neat part is that most of his coworkers learned computers in school. And who do they turn to when they can't solve a complex problem? Or when the code they wrote is slow to perform? They come to Allen because he can think "outside of the box" and can solve problems readily (and I mean problems that have stumped numerous people for months), and has code that he wrote run in 5 minutes while the other guy's is still running an hour later.....And he was 35....
Just some perspective from the other side of the educational fence :)
Janet
Her reply:
I agree that it's a system that can work as long as the parent is intelligent and presents opportunities for learning. Learning is a totally natural process, you can't keep a child from learning. Learning Math is a natural process. Children should know what 5 X 3 looks like......they should use manipulatives to see what 5 X 3 looks like. It should not be taught by rote memory because all math is connected. I understand.......I just see too many people abusive a perfectly good system. Yes I have read your books. I agree with the authors for the most part. I've taught several seminars demonstrating the method that you use. (There are teachers out there who only know how to teach with a paper a pencil.) As long as you are challenging Caroline in the areas she isn't naturally curious about. Your example of war.....if the child doesn't learn about the concept, they won't understand it in a book. I know that Caroline likes fish, but somewhere along the line she's going to have to learn how to dissect a sentence and I doubt she'll come to you and be begging for you to teach that concept. Balance is what I'm talking about.......I know you'll do a great job.
kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*******
I was also a bit skeptical of unschooling until I did more reading and research. And now, having done it for 7 years <g> watching how both of my children learn and how they process information, I wouldn't have it any other way. I can tailor the way I present information to their individual learning styles. Have you read any books by John Holt or John Taylor Gatto?
I don't believe that there is a set body of knowledge that everyone needs to learn, in a set order, over a period of months or years. Imagine a sheet of paper representing all of the knowledge in the world. Now place a dot on the paper. This is what schools have deemed important. But what if my dot is across the page? And my child's dot is in yet another place? A child immersed in the world can make connections between history and math and science, and connect their own dots. Not everyone is a scientist. Not everyone is a writer. Not everyone is an athlete. Not everyone wants or needs to go to college (depends upon their field of interest). A child (especially an older child or teen) who immerses himself/herself into a topic of choice (be it marine biology, art, ancient Egypt, or even Pokemon or Nintendo), over time, will cover all of the basic "subjects" ie reading, math, history,science, geography, etc. Because one thing leads to another, to another, etc. It happens naturally. And things learned this way are learned for life. They are not studied to be tested on an then forgotten. Think of the knowledge you use on a daily basis in your normal activities. How much did you learn in school? How much did you learn on your own because you were interested? How much did you learn in school but forgot (ie what was the war of 1812 about?) but you know where to look up the information if you ever needed it? You remember the things you need to know and the things that interest you, and the rest is forgotten.
My kids are exposed to all kinds of things every day. We have tons of books, resources, and materials that they can use. We go to the aquarium. Sturbridge Village (a history museum of America in the 1830's). The Science Center. The children's museum. State parks. Camping. The post office. The library. Swimming lessons. Ice skating lessons. Homeschool playgroups. The phone guy adding a new phone line. Looking in the microscope a worm eggs. Watching surgery. Discussions about all kinds of things happen throughout the day. Spelling, math, history, geography, etc. It's fun to see even Thomas making connections.
Unschooling is trusting in a child's natural curiosity to teach them what they need to know. The parent is there to answer questions, talk, infect the kids by their own curiosity about life! (though curious about what they're interested rather in what you think would be good for the them to be interested in!), and surround them with lots of resources and supplies.
The hard parts are 1) trusting natural curiosity to draw your child to what they need to learn when. Math is fascinating when you can see how it relates to every day living; 2) trusting your child's natural schedule rather than the school imposed one (eg, that the child will read eventually even if they aren't doing so at 7, they will multiply even if they aren't doing it at 9); 3) trusting that it's okay for kids to learn things out of order! It doesn't bother kids at all to pick up interesting tidbits about Thomas Jefferson, knightly armor, Egyptian mummies, WW2 combat planes. They make their own connections as they get more and more things in place. (Later, an orderly approach will be fascinating to them as they can make even more connections.); 4) seeing real learning that is right there all around you, for example, the things that need sorted, the cookies to divide, the planning for a party that are all real live math. And it's especially tough to trust that those few minutes of real engaged figuring are worth 20 pages of worksheet practice.
I appreciate your input. I know where Caroline's strengths and weaknesses are and I find creative ways to encourage her in those weak areas by sneaking it into something she's interested in. She is very strong in math, science, and geography, right on target with reading but way ahead in comprehension, and very weak with her handwriting. So far it's working for us. However, we have also seen it work fabulously in the adult world. Allen taught himself to program computers. By reading, doing, and asking questions of those who knew how. Then he took a 6 week computer course, and since then has taught himself several more languages with which to code. The neat part is that most of his coworkers learned computers in school. And who do they turn to when they can't solve a complex problem? Or when the code they wrote is slow to perform? They come to Allen because he can think "outside of the box" and can solve problems readily (and I mean problems that have stumped numerous people for months), and has code that he wrote run in 5 minutes while the other guy's is still running an hour later.....And he was 35....
Just some perspective from the other side of the educational fence :)
Janet
Her reply:
I agree that it's a system that can work as long as the parent is intelligent and presents opportunities for learning. Learning is a totally natural process, you can't keep a child from learning. Learning Math is a natural process. Children should know what 5 X 3 looks like......they should use manipulatives to see what 5 X 3 looks like. It should not be taught by rote memory because all math is connected. I understand.......I just see too many people abusive a perfectly good system. Yes I have read your books. I agree with the authors for the most part. I've taught several seminars demonstrating the method that you use. (There are teachers out there who only know how to teach with a paper a pencil.) As long as you are challenging Caroline in the areas she isn't naturally curious about. Your example of war.....if the child doesn't learn about the concept, they won't understand it in a book. I know that Caroline likes fish, but somewhere along the line she's going to have to learn how to dissect a sentence and I doubt she'll come to you and be begging for you to teach that concept. Balance is what I'm talking about.......I know you'll do a great job.
kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<<is like chicken
and dumplings. Filling and bland.>>
You haven't had chicken and dumplings in NM then. :o) Add a little green chile and some pepper. Nothing bland about it and you'll need a fire extinguisher for the heartburn. <g>
and dumplings. Filling and bland.>>
You haven't had chicken and dumplings in NM then. :o) Add a little green chile and some pepper. Nothing bland about it and you'll need a fire extinguisher for the heartburn. <g>
----- Original Message -----
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
Do you feel like you're getting anything from this? If not, I'd just call a
stop to the discussion and agree to disagree. Your responses were well
written and very clear. If she doesn't get it, she never will, so why waste
your time? ~Rue
-----Original Message-----
From: Janet F Hamlin [mailto:jefhdvm@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: How to respond?
Am I the one who just doesn't get it? I thought I was answering her
questions and making points, and now I'm defensive? How would you all
handle this from here? I am beating my head against a wall.....
Janet
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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stop to the discussion and agree to disagree. Your responses were well
written and very clear. If she doesn't get it, she never will, so why waste
your time? ~Rue
-----Original Message-----
From: Janet F Hamlin [mailto:jefhdvm@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: How to respond?
Am I the one who just doesn't get it? I thought I was answering her
questions and making points, and now I'm defensive? How would you all
handle this from here? I am beating my head against a wall.....
Janet
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Lynda
Her's is the response of someone who is defensive. Of course you noticed
your spelling errors, etc. Now, if you were defensive you'd point them out
to her. Since you obviously weren't, I'd just say "it's been nice talking
but this seems to be a subject where what you intend to convey doesn't not
come through the written word."
Lynda
your spelling errors, etc. Now, if you were defensive you'd point them out
to her. Since you obviously weren't, I'd just say "it's been nice talking
but this seems to be a subject where what you intend to convey doesn't not
come through the written word."
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Janet F Hamlin <jefhdvm@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:22 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: How to respond?
> Am I the one who just doesn't get it? I thought I was answering her
questions and making points, and now I'm defensive? How would you all
handle this from here? I am beating my head against a wall.....
>
> Janet
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Lynda
Give it up! The one paragraph says it all and no offense, I think she is
full of bull! In fact, I'd say fabricating as she goes along to "win" the
"argument."
I very seriously doubt that she taught any seminars on "the method you use."
You can't "teach" the unschooling "method" cause there isn't a "method."
However, the real cap on the futility of the discussion is her repeated
harping on dissecting a sentence. Except for English teachers or sometimes
on these lists, how many people EVER in their whole lives will have to
dissect a sentence! Geez Louise, that woman needs to get over herself and
get a real life!
Lynda
full of bull! In fact, I'd say fabricating as she goes along to "win" the
"argument."
I very seriously doubt that she taught any seminars on "the method you use."
You can't "teach" the unschooling "method" cause there isn't a "method."
However, the real cap on the futility of the discussion is her repeated
harping on dissecting a sentence. Except for English teachers or sometimes
on these lists, how many people EVER in their whole lives will have to
dissect a sentence! Geez Louise, that woman needs to get over herself and
get a real life!
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Janet F Hamlin <jefhdvm@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 8:23 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: How to respond?
> I continued the dialog with my friend and here is what I wrote and her
replies. If anything sounds familiar it is because I have learned so much
from you all here, from Sandra and Joyce and others. :) I feel like I have
explained myself very well but I don't think she understands at all.
> *******
> I was also a bit skeptical of unschooling until I did more reading and
research. And now, having done it for 7 years <g> watching how both of my
children learn and how they process information, I wouldn't have it any
other way. I can tailor the way I present information to their individual
learning styles. Have you read any books by John Holt or John Taylor Gatto?
>
> I don't believe that there is a set body of knowledge that everyone needs
to learn, in a set order, over a period of months or years. Imagine a sheet
of paper representing all of the knowledge in the world. Now place a dot on
the paper. This is what schools have deemed important. But what if my dot
is across the page? And my child's dot is in yet another place? A child
immersed in the world can make connections between history and math and
science, and connect their own dots. Not everyone is a scientist. Not
everyone is a writer. Not everyone is an athlete. Not everyone wants or
needs to go to college (depends upon their field of interest). A child
(especially an older child or teen) who immerses himself/herself into a
topic of choice (be it marine biology, art, ancient Egypt, or even Pokemon
or Nintendo), over time, will cover all of the basic "subjects" ie reading,
math, history,science, geography, etc. Because one thing leads to another,
to another, etc. It happens naturally. And things learned this way are
learned for life. They are not studied to be tested on an then forgotten.
Think of the knowledge you use on a daily basis in your normal activities.
How much did you learn in school? How much did you learn on your own
because you were interested? How much did you learn in school but forgot
(ie what was the war of 1812 about?) but you know where to look up the
information if you ever needed it? You remember the things you need to know
and the things that interest you, and the rest is forgotten.
>
> My kids are exposed to all kinds of things every day. We have tons of
books, resources, and materials that they can use. We go to the aquarium.
Sturbridge Village (a history museum of America in the 1830's). The Science
Center. The children's museum. State parks. Camping. The post office.
The library. Swimming lessons. Ice skating lessons. Homeschool playgroups.
The phone guy adding a new phone line. Looking in the microscope a worm
eggs. Watching surgery. Discussions about all kinds of things happen
throughout the day. Spelling, math, history, geography, etc. It's fun to
see even Thomas making connections.
>
> Unschooling is trusting in a child's natural curiosity to teach them what
they need to know. The parent is there to answer questions, talk, infect the
kids by their own curiosity about life! (though curious about what they're
interested rather in what you think would be good for the them to be
interested in!), and surround them with lots of resources and supplies.
>
> The hard parts are 1) trusting natural curiosity to draw your child to
what they need to learn when. Math is fascinating when you can see how it
relates to every day living; 2) trusting your child's natural schedule
rather than the school imposed one (eg, that the child will read eventually
even if they aren't doing so at 7, they will multiply even if they aren't
doing it at 9); 3) trusting that it's okay for kids to learn things out of
order! It doesn't bother kids at all to pick up interesting tidbits about
Thomas Jefferson, knightly armor, Egyptian mummies, WW2 combat planes. They
make their own connections as they get more and more things in place.
(Later, an orderly approach will be fascinating to them as they can make
even more connections.); 4) seeing real learning that is right there all
around you, for example, the things that need sorted, the cookies to divide,
the planning for a party that are all real live math. And it's especially
tough to trust that those few minutes of real engaged figuring are worth 20
pages of worksheet practice.
>
> I appreciate your input. I know where Caroline's strengths and weaknesses
are and I find creative ways to encourage her in those weak areas by
sneaking it into something she's interested in. She is very strong in math,
science, and geography, right on target with reading but way ahead in
comprehension, and very weak with her handwriting. So far it's working for
us. However, we have also seen it work fabulously in the adult world.
Allen taught himself to program computers. By reading, doing, and asking
questions of those who knew how. Then he took a 6 week computer course, and
since then has taught himself several more languages with which to code.
The neat part is that most of his coworkers learned computers in school.
And who do they turn to when they can't solve a complex problem? Or when
the code they wrote is slow to perform? They come to Allen because he can
think "outside of the box" and can solve problems readily (and I mean
problems that have stumped numerous people for months), and has code that he
wrote run in 5 minutes while the other guy's is still running an hour
later.....And he was 35....
>
> Just some perspective from the other side of the educational fence :)
>
> Janet
>
>
> Her reply:
>
> I agree that it's a system that can work as long as the parent is
intelligent and presents opportunities for learning. Learning is a totally
natural process, you can't keep a child from learning. Learning Math is a
natural process. Children should know what 5 X 3 looks like......they
should use manipulatives to see what 5 X 3 looks like. It should not be
taught by rote memory because all math is connected. I understand.......I
just see too many people abusive a perfectly good system. Yes I have read
your books. I agree with the authors for the most part. I've taught
several seminars demonstrating the method that you use. (There are teachers
out there who only know how to teach with a paper a pencil.) As long as you
are challenging Caroline in the areas she isn't naturally curious about.
Your example of war.....if the child doesn't learn about the concept, they
won't understand it in a book. I know that Caroline likes fish, but
somewhere along the line she's going to have to learn how to dissect a
sentence and I doubt she'll come to you and be begging for you to teach that
concept. Balance is what I'm talking about.......I know you'll do a great
job.
>
> kim
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Castle Crawford
Maybe you will just have to change the subject with her. My mother and sister and my husband's mother and sister are ALL public school teachers. My own sister wrote me a long letter (and sent it with my birthday card) about how I was depriving Jacob of a very vital and necessary building block by keeping him out of kindergarten. She assured me I did not have the skill level or the ability to teach my children and that it was best left to people with degrees.
That is the mentality of a teacher, they are trained to teach-and by that I mean to lecture, give assignments, oversee each step and test test test to make sure Johnny remembers from Tuesday to Friday what he was told. Next Mondays ability to remember means little until time for the state-wide achievement tests-at which point all learning is put on hold for a few weeks while they review like crazy to ensure good scores.
It is not their fault, really. Like a chef can not stand to see a 'layman' add a dab of this and never measure a thing and that and turn out a product that appeals to more people than the smashed duck liver and stuffed mushrooms it took the chef 3 months to perfect.
Teachers even go to CLASSES that teach them how to use 'hands-on' approaches, which (shock) seem to work better in several subjects than lectures, reading and tests! wow...
Try not to take it personally-it seems like the two of you can have some open and honest conversations. I would not risk losing a friend over something that is actually not any concern of hers (have you asked her what kinds of food she feeds her kids?) Just steer it away from the current topic and let her know you appreciate her concern and that you will think about what she has said. That does not commit you to DO anything about what she said...
E
That is the mentality of a teacher, they are trained to teach-and by that I mean to lecture, give assignments, oversee each step and test test test to make sure Johnny remembers from Tuesday to Friday what he was told. Next Mondays ability to remember means little until time for the state-wide achievement tests-at which point all learning is put on hold for a few weeks while they review like crazy to ensure good scores.
It is not their fault, really. Like a chef can not stand to see a 'layman' add a dab of this and never measure a thing and that and turn out a product that appeals to more people than the smashed duck liver and stuffed mushrooms it took the chef 3 months to perfect.
Teachers even go to CLASSES that teach them how to use 'hands-on' approaches, which (shock) seem to work better in several subjects than lectures, reading and tests! wow...
Try not to take it personally-it seems like the two of you can have some open and honest conversations. I would not risk losing a friend over something that is actually not any concern of hers (have you asked her what kinds of food she feeds her kids?) Just steer it away from the current topic and let her know you appreciate her concern and that you will think about what she has said. That does not commit you to DO anything about what she said...
E
----- Original Message -----
From: Janet F Hamlin
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 10:22 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: How to respond?
Am I the one who just doesn't get it? I thought I was answering her questions and making points, and now I'm defensive? How would you all handle this from here? I am beating my head against a wall.....
Janet
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jefferson academy
You might also explain to your friend that you would
prefer your children to develop their own unique
individual styles rather than a cookie cutter textbook
approach to writing. For example, it appears that you
and your friend were educated by the same teachers
-because while you express opposing views, your
writing styles are remarkably similar. Some parents
would find it more important for their child to be
able to express themselves in unique and creative
ways, rather than be able to identify parts of speech
- but have their prose indistinguishable from their
classmate's.
Michele
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
prefer your children to develop their own unique
individual styles rather than a cookie cutter textbook
approach to writing. For example, it appears that you
and your friend were educated by the same teachers
-because while you express opposing views, your
writing styles are remarkably similar. Some parents
would find it more important for their child to be
able to express themselves in unique and creative
ways, rather than be able to identify parts of speech
- but have their prose indistinguishable from their
classmate's.
Michele
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> Yes I have read your books. I agree with the authors for the mostHow can she teach it when she still doesn't understand it? Obviously she's
> part. I've taught several seminars demonstrating the method that you
> use. (There are teachers out there who only know how to teach with a
> paper a pencil.)
decided what unschooling is, and it isn't what most of us think it is.
>As long as you are challenging Caroline in the areas she isn't naturallyI've found that my son learns concepts *from* books. He might ask a lot of
>curious about. Your example of war.....if the child doesn't learn about
>the concept, they won't understand it in a book.
questions about what I read to him, but his initial meeting with the
concept was in fiction. He doesn't need to learn about the concept first
in order to understand it when he meets it in books. That reminds me of
grade 9 English, where we had to memorize all the idioms, I think they were
called, like, "Do you bite your thumb at me?" before we read Romeo and
Juliet. When my kids watched that, it was obvious what biting your thumb
at someone meant.
>I know that Caroline likes fish, but somewhere along the line she's goingI get paid to write. I learned to diagram sentences in grade 7, but I
>to have to learn how to dissect a sentence and I doubt she'll come to you
>and be begging for you to teach that concept. Balance is what I'm talking
>about.......I know you'll do a great job.
couldn't do it now if I tried.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
[email protected]
In a message dated 08/22/2001 3:31:33 PM !!!First Boot!!!, jefhdvm@...
writes:
She never will.
My opinion: Let it go!
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> but I don't think she understands at all.Janet --
>
She never will.
My opinion: Let it go!
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
To Janet first, and then comments on some very cool advice she got.
Janet, you wrote << I feel like I have explained myself very well but I don't
think she understands at all.>>
She doesn't want to understand. If she understands she will have to question
1) her education
2) her profession
3) her parenting
That's a lot of questioning for an August 22, for a teacher, and mother of
four.
I also think she has cried "uncle" and you can patch her up and let it go for
a few months or years.
But back to all of US! :
THIS, I loved:
<< "having raised four children" does not make you an expert on ANYTHING, and
having sent those four children to school certainly does not make you an
authority on homeschooling.>>
That is so absolutely true. And this, I think is exactly on target:
<<It seems to me that your friend feels the need to justify what she has done
with her life by belittling the choices you have made in yours. >>
And the friend's decisions are behind her and too late to change.
Sad but too true:
<<She clearly has no real respect for children if she believes they cannot
learn without being forced to, and she definitely has no respect for
parents. Another good reason to keep our kids of public school.>>
<<If I had to respond to the letter, I would simply say "time will tell". >>
Sarah wrote that, and it's good. One thing I've heard people say which then
kind of give the public school teachers a fright they must cover up is
something along the lines of "Well if they get all messed up and don't learn
anything I'll put them in public school and the special ed teachers can get
them all caught up!" And then you have to smile your biggest, most innocent
and eager smile.
THEY know special ed teachers aren't in the business of getting people caught
up. <g>
<<As to the parts of speech, it is necessary to have an understanding of them
for proper written communication. >>
No you don't. Richard Prystowsky and I just did a workshop three days ago
about writing, and the formal study of grammar NOT being required for people
to be good writers. It's like reading/writing music and being a musician.
Some of the greatest musicians don't read music. Some very great writers
can't "dissect a sentence" in formal terminology. Conversely, you ALL know,
some sentence-diagramming-champions can't write anything worth reading, and
some kids who get A's in music theory don't have the first clue how to get
real music out of an instrument. Maybe they can hit the right keys on a
piano or throw together a series of fingerings on a clarinet, but are still
tone-deaf and rhythm-free, let alone devoid of musical artistry.
Grammar does not lead to writing. Grammar is a thing unto itself, like
theoretical math, or computer-modelling of choregoraphy.
<<Your example of war.....if the child doesn't learn about the concept, they
won't understand it in a book. >>
Is she suggesting ROTC or violent video games or re-runs of CBS news from
1968 or WHAT!?
<<However, the real cap on the futility of the discussion is her repeated
harping on dissecting a sentence. Except for English teachers or sometimes
on these lists, how many people EVER in their whole lives will have to
dissect a sentence! Geez Louise, that woman needs to get over herself and
get a real life!>>
I thought that too. I wondered if she really meant to say "diagramming a
sentence" or "analyzing sentence structure" because "dissect" is not the
terminology used for sentences in my experience. I have an English degree
and I've taught English composition. I understood it though, and I'm willing
to have people use English pretty much as they want if it makes good sense,
so I found it perfectly descriptive, but odd.
I guess she LOVES science and reading and not that other stuff!! <g>
<<That is the mentality of a teacher, they are trained to teach...and test
test test to make sure Johnny remembers from Tuesday to Friday what he was
told. >>
OH yes, and if the kid repeatedly fails to perform on Fridays, it's HIS
fault, or his parents' fault, or there's something wrong with him. So he's
demoted to special ed, or kept back.
It will take some time for the friend to get some of this stuff, and I'm sure
that as this schoolyear unfolds she will see time and again things she might
have ignored before, and they will remind her of this exchange.
I am confident that unschooling will change the schools.
I'm equally confident they'll never admit that's what did it. <g>
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Janet, you wrote << I feel like I have explained myself very well but I don't
think she understands at all.>>
She doesn't want to understand. If she understands she will have to question
1) her education
2) her profession
3) her parenting
That's a lot of questioning for an August 22, for a teacher, and mother of
four.
I also think she has cried "uncle" and you can patch her up and let it go for
a few months or years.
But back to all of US! :
THIS, I loved:
<< "having raised four children" does not make you an expert on ANYTHING, and
having sent those four children to school certainly does not make you an
authority on homeschooling.>>
That is so absolutely true. And this, I think is exactly on target:
<<It seems to me that your friend feels the need to justify what she has done
with her life by belittling the choices you have made in yours. >>
And the friend's decisions are behind her and too late to change.
Sad but too true:
<<She clearly has no real respect for children if she believes they cannot
learn without being forced to, and she definitely has no respect for
parents. Another good reason to keep our kids of public school.>>
<<If I had to respond to the letter, I would simply say "time will tell". >>
Sarah wrote that, and it's good. One thing I've heard people say which then
kind of give the public school teachers a fright they must cover up is
something along the lines of "Well if they get all messed up and don't learn
anything I'll put them in public school and the special ed teachers can get
them all caught up!" And then you have to smile your biggest, most innocent
and eager smile.
THEY know special ed teachers aren't in the business of getting people caught
up. <g>
<<As to the parts of speech, it is necessary to have an understanding of them
for proper written communication. >>
No you don't. Richard Prystowsky and I just did a workshop three days ago
about writing, and the formal study of grammar NOT being required for people
to be good writers. It's like reading/writing music and being a musician.
Some of the greatest musicians don't read music. Some very great writers
can't "dissect a sentence" in formal terminology. Conversely, you ALL know,
some sentence-diagramming-champions can't write anything worth reading, and
some kids who get A's in music theory don't have the first clue how to get
real music out of an instrument. Maybe they can hit the right keys on a
piano or throw together a series of fingerings on a clarinet, but are still
tone-deaf and rhythm-free, let alone devoid of musical artistry.
Grammar does not lead to writing. Grammar is a thing unto itself, like
theoretical math, or computer-modelling of choregoraphy.
<<Your example of war.....if the child doesn't learn about the concept, they
won't understand it in a book. >>
Is she suggesting ROTC or violent video games or re-runs of CBS news from
1968 or WHAT!?
<<However, the real cap on the futility of the discussion is her repeated
harping on dissecting a sentence. Except for English teachers or sometimes
on these lists, how many people EVER in their whole lives will have to
dissect a sentence! Geez Louise, that woman needs to get over herself and
get a real life!>>
I thought that too. I wondered if she really meant to say "diagramming a
sentence" or "analyzing sentence structure" because "dissect" is not the
terminology used for sentences in my experience. I have an English degree
and I've taught English composition. I understood it though, and I'm willing
to have people use English pretty much as they want if it makes good sense,
so I found it perfectly descriptive, but odd.
I guess she LOVES science and reading and not that other stuff!! <g>
<<That is the mentality of a teacher, they are trained to teach...and test
test test to make sure Johnny remembers from Tuesday to Friday what he was
told. >>
OH yes, and if the kid repeatedly fails to perform on Fridays, it's HIS
fault, or his parents' fault, or there's something wrong with him. So he's
demoted to special ed, or kept back.
It will take some time for the friend to get some of this stuff, and I'm sure
that as this schoolyear unfolds she will see time and again things she might
have ignored before, and they will remind her of this exchange.
I am confident that unschooling will change the schools.
I'm equally confident they'll never admit that's what did it. <g>
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Tia Leschke
>No, no no! Learning stops after you *get* your education. <g>
> Why don't these people advocate adult assessment tests mandated by the
>government so we can know EVERY year of our lives how we compare with others
>our age? And how does the adult stay a "balanced learner" after high school
>or college?
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Janet
Thank you for all of your replies. I did e-mail her one more reply
in which I agreed to disagree, and let it go. I found it a fun
mental exercise to express my thoughts on paper (which I am not good
at). I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt like she was being
derogatory towards me and my choices and I felt she was deliberately
being vague and using educational buzzwords.
She and I were very close friends in college and remained friends
afterwards. We've known each other for about 20 years now. We
write, phone, and visit every so often but since we live 1500 miles
apart it has been hard to remain close. She has never questioned my
decision to homeschool in the past, prefering to keep her objections
to herself.
Since we made our decision to unschool years ago, I have gotten
numerous questions from family and friends as to what we do all day,
suggestions for "school work" and the like. I recently sent some
family members and my friend an excerpt of a Q&A session about
unschooling, and math in particular. That is what started the whole
thing.
Janet, mom to Caroline, 6, and Thomas, almost 3!!
in which I agreed to disagree, and let it go. I found it a fun
mental exercise to express my thoughts on paper (which I am not good
at). I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt like she was being
derogatory towards me and my choices and I felt she was deliberately
being vague and using educational buzzwords.
She and I were very close friends in college and remained friends
afterwards. We've known each other for about 20 years now. We
write, phone, and visit every so often but since we live 1500 miles
apart it has been hard to remain close. She has never questioned my
decision to homeschool in the past, prefering to keep her objections
to herself.
Since we made our decision to unschool years ago, I have gotten
numerous questions from family and friends as to what we do all day,
suggestions for "school work" and the like. I recently sent some
family members and my friend an excerpt of a Q&A session about
unschooling, and math in particular. That is what started the whole
thing.
Janet, mom to Caroline, 6, and Thomas, almost 3!!
Janet
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
someone something they don't want to learn, no matter how hard you
try <g>!
Janet
> To Janet first, and then comments on some very cool advice she got.but I don't
>
> Janet, you wrote << I feel like I have explained myself very well
> think she understands at all.>>to question
>
> She doesn't want to understand. If she understands she will have
> 1) her educationmother of
> 2) her profession
> 3) her parenting
>
> That's a lot of questioning for an August 22, for a teacher, and
> four.it go for
>
> I also think she has cried "uncle" and you can patch her up and let
> a few months or years.I agree, Sandra. And she proved my point, too: you can't teach
someone something they don't want to learn, no matter how hard you
try <g>!
Janet
Janet
> I very seriously doubt that she taught any seminars on "the methodyou use."
> You can't "teach" the unschooling "method" cause there isn'ta "method.">
I think she was probably referring to seminars on "using the
interests of the child to teach the subjects that the child wouldn't
normally approach on their own." (quote from her e-mail) which is NOT
unschooling, but more like using my daughter's interest in fish to
learn reading (let's read this book about fish; let's add and
subtract fish; what types of fish and marine life do you think the
Pilgrims saw while crossing the Atlantic on the Mayflower? etc.)
Janet
Johanna SanInocencio
don't let it drive you nuts. She is a public educatior who has spent many
years of college being taught hers is the correct and best way and she may
not get it. Don't take it personal. I have a friend who is "from a long line
of educators" as he says. He thinks our kids are smart, articulate, polite
and really great kids. Homeschooling is not for his daughter according to
him. His wife would make a great homeschooler but he won't let her. I
learned to let it go.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
years of college being taught hers is the correct and best way and she may
not get it. Don't take it personal. I have a friend who is "from a long line
of educators" as he says. He thinks our kids are smart, articulate, polite
and really great kids. Homeschooling is not for his daughter according to
him. His wife would make a great homeschooler but he won't let her. I
learned to let it go.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janet F Hamlin" <jefhdvm@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 10:22 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: How to respond?
> Am I the one who just doesn't get it? I thought I was answering her
questions and making points, and now I'm defensive? How would you all
handle this from here? I am beating my head against a wall.....
>
> Janet
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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[email protected]
What is the CCU-list?
Laura
Those of you on CCU-list know me already. ]
Laura
Those of you on CCU-list know me already. ]
M and L Hand
Christ-Centered Unschooling. It is another yahoogroups list. It is fun! Check us out - we love new members.
Laurie (really a Laura, but don't call me that....only my parents and siblings get by with it, and still it makes me squirm)
Laurie (really a Laura, but don't call me that....only my parents and siblings get by with it, and still it makes me squirm)
----- Original Message -----
What is the CCU-list?
Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]