[email protected]

I don't understand the militant attitude of people on this who don't
understand my choices (or those of my children). My 15 year old daughter goes
to public school because she chooses to! I am open minded enough to allow my
children to make choices (even if they are not appropriate for others).
That's wonderful that you love the freedom of your lifestyle, but don't judge
others for the structure in theirs.
Nancy

Nicki Clark

<That's wonderful that you love the freedom of your lifestyle, but don't
judge
others for the structure in theirs.>>

I am not *judging* others - trust me, my energy is precious to me and I
rarely spend it on negative matters. I could care less what you do in your
life except as another resource of experience for me and mine to draw on
when trying to make my own choices. Past that, judging is a waste of my time
and energy.

I was questioning the origins of the need for structure. It is nature or
nurture - learned or just a personality type.

Nicki

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/3/01 8:27:08 AM, nanandter@... writes:

<< I don't understand the militant attitude of people on this who don't
understand my choices (or those of my children). My 15 year old daughter goes
to public school because she chooses to! I am open minded enough to allow my
children to make choices (even if they are not appropriate for others).
That's wonderful that you love the freedom of your lifestyle, but don't judge
others for the structure in theirs. >>

On a discussion list called unschooling-dotcom, you shouldn't be surprised if
people are suspicious of anyone's claim that their children "need structure"
or "want structure." Many unschoolers are basing their lives on the
theory/assumption/suspicion that much of what drives and maintains the public
school system (structure and all) is not well based in real human needs, but
in school-needs.

If we don't judge whether structure is better or not, good or not, necessary
or not, why wouldn't our kids be in school? Asking questions is the way we
clarify our own beliefs, and help others who come here to clarify theirs.

People come here just about every day saying "What should I do?" And the
best way they come to their OWN decision about what they should do is to read
what five or twenty people write here and hold their beliefs up against it
and see what speaks to their souls. Some people really, truly, do not know
what they believe about school, education and learning. They've been going
with the flow and it takes some work and a lot of thinking to step out of
that flow.

Sandra

----------
http://expage.com/RadicalUnschooling

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/3/2001 11:02:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
nicki@... writes:


>
> I was questioning the origins of the need for structure. It is nature or
> nurture - learned or just a personality type.
>
> Nicki
>

Good question Nicki . . . makes me think. Lelia, who is 12 now, had decided
she "needed" more structure and so we bought a curriculumn at the beginning
of this "school" year. Turns out she didn't need it at all, but she was able
todecid that. So it is an interesting question as to where that "need for
structure" comes from. She had gone to school the year before. . . her choice
because we had just moved and she had been miserable the year before when we
had just moved then too, so she thought school would help out in making new
friends, etc. It did, but those were friends she didn't keep after she left
the school.

Anyway, I think for her the seemingly "need" for structure was society
placed, or possibly even school placed, and I suppose even her family (myself
included) pushed that thought at her. Now that she is totally unschooling,
she is the happiest I have ever seen her in her life. Her self-esteem is
rising everyday, etc. . . .

Good thought provoking question or idea even.

lovemary
If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

debbie jones

>>>> If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.

This is so true! Now if we can all just put it into practice. :)

Debbie


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

On an unschooling list you are going to find folks that are more aggressive
(o.k., so somewhat militant) in their beliefs as regards things such as ps
with the pigeon holing and the whole control factor that is inherent to that
system.

And, how can one understand your choices unless they question and bounce
ideas back and forth.

The whole issue of a child choosing ps brings up lots of questions. So, we
ask the questions. Did the child actually make the choice or did
preconceived notions "force" the choice. Was it an informed choice. Was
it a pressured choice. Why did the child make the choice. Were other
choices really considered or investigated. Lots of questions.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <nanandter@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:24 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re:to choose or let them choose


> I don't understand the militant attitude of people on this who don't
> understand my choices (or those of my children). My 15 year old daughter
goes
> to public school because she chooses to! I am open minded enough to allow
my
> children to make choices (even if they are not appropriate for others).
> That's wonderful that you love the freedom of your lifestyle, but don't
judge
> others for the structure in theirs.
> Nancy
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

debbie jones

By the way, my comment was meant as a general statement, not towards anyone personally and nothing to do with homeschooling or unschooling. I think taking a look at oneself and making a change is something that is not always easy but sure does make life easier in the long run.
debbie jones <dljones0@...> wrote:
>>>> If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.

This is so true! Now if we can all just put it into practice. :)

Debbie


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[email protected]

In a message dated 06/03/2001 7:11:52 PM !!!First Boot!!!, lurine@...
writes:


> On an unschooling list you are going to find folks that are more aggressive
> (o.k., so somewhat militant) in their beliefs as regards things such as ps
> with the pigeon holing and the whole control factor that is inherent to that
> system.
>
>


Yep.

You'll have that. Apparently.

Apparently, there are your hard-line unschoolers and then there are your more
middle-of-the-road unschoolers (I think that would be me).

I am getting more and more un, but may never be quite un enough to suit some
people.

But it suits me and mine.

And I think choices like charter schools and part-time hsing and ps
attendance and college and tutors and textbooks and some structured
activities and all sorts of other things are OK. Now, you can take all that
and mix it with anyone who disagrees and wad it up into a big ball of paper
-- and throw it away. And do what you were doing anyway! Or what you have
already done.

Some people are more adamant than others. Some people, even in unschooling
circles (which always suprises me more than in other places, for some
reason), seem to want to tell others what is best for them. Some have an
almost evangelical zeal to do so.

But that doesn't mean anyone else has to get worked into a lather over it.
Some people just have to give you loads of advice. Remember when you were
pregnant? Didn't everyone have sage advice to give you?

So it goes with parenting and schooling and homechooling and, even,
unschooling. Apparently. I try to remember this and take what works and
leave the rest.

Sometimes there are some really valuable insights shared on this list.

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicki Clark

<<I am getting more and more un, but may never be quite un enough to suit
some
people.>>

Ok, these comments and questions aren't meant to further offend or "cast
judgment" but I seriously want some clarification and understanding.

I understand the *broad* spectrum of unschooling to be those who don't do
institutionalized education and whose children learn sans curriculum. I know
there are more specific levels and types of unschoolers. I know there are
those who consider letting a child use a worksheet to be anti-unschooling. I
know those who feel that having a tv in a child's live is anti-unschooling.
I know there are those who feel like parents who are part of homeschooling
charters for whatever reason, even if they don't use a curriculum, are not
unschoolers. But generally speaking, isn't it safe to say that one can claim
to be an unschooler if they are not following some curriculum or "course"
and are homeschooling?

Assuming that's true, don't you have your kids in PS, Nance? How can you
claim to be an unschooler, if so? I mean, you may be right that you might
never be "quite un enough to suit some people" but I think the first step
would be to homeschool at all, wouldn't it?

I only say this from my own standpoint. I can't call myself a true
unschooler until my children are not in school. I can wholeheartedly support
unschooling views, I can agree with unschooling methods but as long as my
kids are in PS 7 hours a day, 75% or more of their waking hours a week, then
*I* am not unschooling.

<<Some people, even in unschooling
circles (which always surprises me more than in other places, for some
reason), seem to want to tell others what is best for them. >>

I haven't run into this personally but I *have* run into those who are
hypersensitive to other's choices and *assume* that anyone who is voicing an
opinion contrary to their own is somehow judging them, criticizing, or
telling them what to do. THAT always surprises me.

Nicki

LisaBugg

> Some people are more adamant than others. Some people, even in
unschooling
> circles (which always suprises me more than in other places, for some
> reason), seem to want to tell others what is best for them. Some have an
> almost evangelical zeal to do so.
>

I think many of us have an "almost evangelical zeal' to talk about
unschooling itself, what it is, what is can be, what we've learned and how
we've grown. This is separate and distinct from talking about unschoolers
themselves.

Unschooling is not found within a Military Boarding School, but an
unschooler might go to a military boarding school as an adventure. ;)

I have four children, and I/we unschool. What that looks like for each
individual is very different. I have one child who loves workbooks/puzzles
and also is very orderly, neat and methodical. She could look like a
school-at-homer. (just as long as no one calls her Homer. <G>)

Some of us are adamant that the general definition of unschooling be
separate and distinct from school-at-home because we do believe, with tons
of zeal, for it to be a better option than forcing children to do school at
home --- even while children choosing what works for them means some will
choose to do very schoolish things.

And I'm no longer surprised to find the *zeal of defining* inside a
community. Unschoolers trying to define unschooling sure beats Christians
defining who is a Christian or Jews defining who is Jewish. ;)

Tracy Oldfield

I haven't run into this personally but I *have* run
into those who are
hypersensitive to other's choices and *assume* that
anyone who is voicing an
opinion contrary to their own is somehow judging them,
criticizing, or
telling them what to do. THAT always surprises me.

Nicki


That doesn't surprise me at all! (the fact taht some
folk take it personal when one chooses a different path
to them, I mean) it's a challenge to what they
believe. I sometimes wonder if my life would be
'better' when I see the neighbours chatting with each
other at the end of my driveway when tehy don't even
acknowledge me... they socialise, they smile, they
appear happy... their lives are totally different to
mine, their children go to nursery, both parents work
outside the home, their children will go to school,
they don't family-bed or do child-led weaning or any of
that. So it's a challenge to me... if they're so
happy doing what they're doing, am i doing the right
thing? The answer is I'm doing the right thing for me,
but I do have to think about it every now and then!
Also, a lot of folk (maybe particularly those who are
more 'mainsteam' than others) aren't used to dealing
with people who don't follow a similar path to them so
theya ren't used to being challeneged in this way, it's
harder for them to respond wihtout appearing to feel
belittled or whatever by someone else's decision.

Now what did I really want to say? Bother. Oh, yes,
unschooling. As I said in my previous post,
unschooling for me is about the person whose education
it is being able to take the decisions and
responsibility for their education, (ie, life!) So if
a child chooses, in an informed and unpressured (hah!
is there such a thing in a high-media-volume-life?)
way, to go to shcool, i still call that unschooling,
it's the child's life and education after all. And I
don't think it's ever too early to be able to discuss
pros and cons with a child, at their level, of course.
which reminds me, I really need to have that
conversation with mine...

Tracy
all the above are the opinion of one person and don't really amount
to a hill of beans in the big scheme of things, except to me :-)

Nicki Clark

<< if they're so
happy doing what they're doing, am i doing the right
thing? >>
Ah-HA! Yes, I live this. I actually had someone tell me that she continues
to send her child to PS because of the socialization SHE gets as a parent.
And she continues to walk her child to school because there is this whole
social dynamic - all the parents meet, chat, socialize, go for coffee,
whatever. I totally can't get into this. I am lucky if I get shoes on
instead of slippers for the drive to school every day. I'm sure not in a
mood to socialize. And I sure can't see that as a reason to continue sending
your child to school. BUT I *do* yearn for that kind of thing and you are
right, I see it and wonder what I'm doing wrong, it's not easy being green.

<<Also, a lot of folk (maybe particularly those who are
more 'mainsteam' than others) aren't used to dealing
with people who don't follow a similar path to them so
theya ren't used to being challeneged in this way, it's
harder for them to respond wihtout appearing to feel
belittled or whatever by someone else's decision. >>

Right, but the funny thing is it is not that *I* am being challenging to
them. It is more that my views force them to challenge themselves and they
just take it out on me <grin>

<<And I
don't think it's ever too early to be able to discuss
pros and cons with a child, at their level, of course.
which reminds me, I really need to have that
conversation with mine...>>

I essentially agree with this but it really seems to overwhelm my oldest
(6yo) child. He seems to need me to make choices for him and I seem to dread
that intuitively. But what happens is that he just remains on the fence.
Maybe he's not old enough to bare that burden? Maybe that is what he needs
me for - my place in his life? We do (and have done his whole life) pro and
con lists and he can't hear or feel the cons, only the pros. So he sits
forever on the fence feeling the pros of both sides and not wanting to be
the one who has to make the decision. I don't think (although I'm open to
the concept) that I created this fence-sitting. I sure haven't been a fence
sitter until *very* recently but he's always shocked me by his sort of need
or want to do everything and keep everyone happy and be everything to
everybody and it makes me sad and uncomfortable and in the meantime I fear
he feels he is just succeeding in disappointing everyone. I've been clear to
him that school is disappointing to me but he never ceases to amaze me and
he should be proud of who he is. This doesn't seem to empower him like I
hoped it would.

Nicki

[email protected]

In a message dated 06/03/2001 11:24:14 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
nicki@... writes:


> But generally speaking, isn't it safe to say that one can claim
> to be an unschooler if they are not following some curriculum or "course"
> and are homeschooling?
>

**This is not un enough for some people. But it is for me.


> Assuming that's true, don't you have your kids in PS, Nance? How can you
> claim to be an unschooler, if so? I mean, you may be right that you might
> never be "quite un enough to suit some people" but I think the first step
> would be to homeschool at all, wouldn't it?
>

**My son was in school, briefly. He lasted for 7 months of K. He and his
sister have now been home for 2 years plus a little.

I think I fell into the big category of people who never gave it much thought
until I actually got to see what school was like up close, for my kids. It
was such a loooong time ago for me and I don't think it occurred to anyone in
my family that there were any choices back then. But my son was miserable
("Mom, they don't teach me anything in school" was the clincher when I
confronted him after days of his being moody/grumpy.). And I spent a lot of
time (to me -- people spend longer) complaining and fighting for what I
wanted for my child, and began hsing. And we have evolved to this point --
where I think(!) I would never send the kids back to school and am now
viewing college suspiciously.

As a matter of fact, I was very proud of myself the other day. My daughter
(6 yo artistic type, extremely bright, articulate, wants to be either an
artist or a wrestler or a particular type of vet -- this list changes often)
and I got talking about how some work takes extensive university education
and some takes none and some takes a combination of college and hands-on
experience -- it was a nice little conversation.

Did that answer anything?

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 06/04/2001 1:46:46 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
nicki@... writes:


> This doesn't seem to empower him like I
> hoped it would.
>
> Nicki
>
>
>


Ah, this must have been the part of the conversation I missed. Around here
(insert appropriate disclaimer if this is not your situation) the 6 yo (and
sometimes the 8 yo) are overwhelmed if you give them too many choices.

Dinner brings this on. Anything really where there are more than 2 choices.
So I offer 2. That's my solution. Not, what would you like for dinner?
(Yes, I know, I should be more organized and not start to plan dinner at 4:30
but -- oh, buzz off all you organized Martha Stewart types! :) ) But, would
you like grilled cheese and soup or hot dog and fries?

To think of asking her to choose whether to school or not -- I can't imagine
her having enough info -- the input she has gotten from me has not been
balanced, good info. Definitely slanted. Anything else is from other kids
-- also slanted. Or TV. Or her brother's disastrous experience. (Actually,
the couple of times she has asked about it he has explained how boring
everything was so that helps.)

It would just be too much for her to have to be responsible for. We'll have
to work it out as we go along.

See, I told you I wasn't radically un! :)

Nance




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/3/01 7:47:11 PM, nicki@... writes:

<< So he sits
forever on the fence feeling the pros of both sides and not wanting to be
the one who has to make the decision. I don't think (although I'm open to
the concept) that I created this fence-sitting. >>

It is in some people's personalities to be that way. It's not a sin. Some
people ARE happy in just about any situation.

There will be other empowerment coming along, I'm sure, one way or the other.

Sandra

[email protected]

> In a message dated 6/3/01 7:47:11 PM, nicki@d... writes:
>
> << So he sits
> forever on the fence feeling the pros of both sides and not wanting
to be
> the one who has to make the decision. I don't think (although I'm
open to
> the concept) that I created this fence-sitting. >>

And Sandra writes:
>
> It is in some people's personalities to be that way.


This reminds me of a great character in a Larry McMurtry book
("Cadillac Jack", I think is the title). There's a guy in that book
who gets stuck in the middle of doorways because he can't decide
whether to go in or stay out, so he just stays there in the door.


Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) Who is building a circus for the fairies
and Asa (10/5/99) who is trying to destroy the fairy circus
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

[email protected]

My daughter and I were a little more than perturbed by some comments that
were made about ps, mostly because we have educated our children in every way
possible, so when I talk about ps I speak from experience. I have 4 kids and
2 are hs and 2 ps--by their choice. They were not damaged by their experience
in ps, but the other 2 could have been, had I not intervened and took them
out of school. I volunteered in their classrooms on a regular basis and
sometimes was not happy with what I was seeing but I was usually able to
intervene to make changes. School is not entirely void of choice, but there
is structure. Structure isn't necessarily bad--don't your kids have a
bedtime? My daughter who attends ps now is involved in many extracirricular
activities and she's an honor roll student, so when she talks, teachers tend
to listen.
My son, on the other hand is resistant to structure, which is why he chooses
to unschool--his education is completely directed by him, however, if he
decides he wants to go back to ps in the future I will let him--it would be
HIS CHOICE.
have a great day from Nancy in sunny California

[email protected]

<< Structure isn't necessarily bad--don't your kids have a
bedtime? >>

They go to bed when they're tired. And they're honest about that, because
they DO have the option, so sometimes they go to bed early and sometimes very
late because they were doing something fascinating and stayed awake from
their interest and involvement in that thing--a game, a conversation, a book,
a movie...

Sandra

LisaBugg

. Structure isn't necessarily bad--don't your kids have a
> bedtime?

I agree with you, structure in and of itself is not a bad thing. However, my
children do not have a bedtime, nor a wake up time, nor a set time to read,
or a set time to know their mulitiplication tables, nor a preset time for
just about anything..... Except meetings with other people, where a set time
means you'll actually be at the same place at the same time. ;)

Nicki Clark

<< Structure isn't necessarily bad--don't your kids have a
bedtime?>>

Only because PS demands it. Prior to that (and after this school year), no.
Did they get enough sleep? yes. They averaged 12-14 hours a day with sleep
and naps combined. And this was for a 2 and 5yo. There is a big difference
between structure imposed upon you or structure you impose on yourself. Like
I feel better if I go to sleep by 10pm instead of staying up until 12am or
falling asleep at 8pm. So I try to structure my nights so I go to sleep
around 10pm. However, I'd sure be resentful if my husband decided to take it
upon himself to tell me when my bedtime should be. Heck, even if he picked
10pm, I'd still be angry that he decided it was appropriate to tell me when
I need to sleep. I have to assume my children are just as capable.

Nicki

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/3/2001 6:30:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dljones0@... writes:


> general statement, not towards anyone personally and nothing to do with
> homeschooling or unschooling. I think taking a look at oneself and making a
> change is something that is not always easy but sure does make life easier
> in the long run.
>

Absolutely. . . it is always easier to find fault with others, and let the
blame lie there. But the real learning and opportunity is looking within and
making the changes that you want to see there. Then, its amazing. . . you
start to see them everywhere!

lovemary
If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tracy Oldfield

Structure isn't necessarily bad--don't your kids have a 
bedtime?

Actually, no they don't. Either they ask for supper
when they're tired or I tell them i ened them to go to
bed so that I can cos I'm tired, but it's not a set
time. I prefer it that way, they get to figure out for
themselves what it feels like to be tired...

My daughter who attends ps now is involved in many
extracirricular activities and she's an honor roll
student, so when she talks, teachers tend to listen.
My son, on the other hand is resistant to structure,
which is why he chooses to unschool--his education is
completely directed by him, however, if he decides he
wants to go back to ps in the future I will let him--it
would be HIS CHOICE.

That sounds like unscholing to me :-)
Tracy

Betsy Hill

>nor a preset time for
>just about anything..... Except meetings with other people, where a set
time
>means you'll actually be at the same place at the same time. ;)
>

Ahhhhhh. A new thing to love about email lists! We can interact, to our
heart's content, without any pressure to be punctual.

Betsy

scrunchy

It is wonderful to be able to do so.
Norma

Betsy Hill wrote:

> Ahhhhhh. A new thing to love about email lists! We can interact, to
> our
> heart's content, without any pressure to be punctual.
>
> Betsy
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]