[email protected]

So, if I understand unschooling (and I'm sure I don't) it is basically
making everyday things you do into a "lesson" without ever telling the
child? Like sewing, (I think boys should learn to sew!), cutting out
the pattern, cooking and measuring, building a model kit, kite, craft,
etc.? It's having them being excited about a piece of history they
read about and heading to the library to find out more? It's being
open to what they are interested in at the moment?

We homeschool (seven years) and it's amazing what I didn't learn in
public school about history and science. We use Christian based
curriculum and my kids have learned historical facts about our
founding fathers that would never get printed in public school books.

And actually, my mother does the homeschooling. She volunteered 7
years ago and my family and my brother's family said okay. I'm
involved just not like she is. But I think I'm tired of hearing, "you
need to buy another history/spelling/vocabulary book."

Which brings me to another question. How to teach them spelling,
vocabulary, phonograms to help them read. Are there "tools" you do
use to help them learn? Do you limit their TV/computer game time? Do
you go to the library a lot? I guess I'm just having trouble
imagineing my kids initiating a "learning experience"! Does
unschooling put them behind academically? I mean, you want them to be
able to basic adding and subtracting by a certain age and then
multiplying and dividing by another age, right?

HELP!

Molly

[email protected]

Hi Molly,

And welcome to the list. I will attempt to answer a few of your questions
with what I believe and what holds true for our family, and I'm sure there
will be lots of others who pipe in with their own feelings. One of the best
thing about unschooling is that it evolves constantly according to how you
see it and let it evolve and follow your instincts.

<<<
So, if I understand unschooling (and I'm sure I don't) it is basically
making everyday things you do into a "lesson" without ever telling the
child?  >>>

Actually, I would say no to this one. I don't keep anything from my children,
and I don't try to "make" anything into a lesson. My daughter, Lelia just
gets up every day and lives and follows her own interest, and I try to do the
same thing. The best "teaching" (and I use that term with a lot of caution)
that I can do is to be the best person I can be and do what interests me, and
Lelia will model that.

 <<< It's being open to what they are interested in at the moment?  >>>

Absolutely YES! And try to stay out of the way as much as possible and be a
facilitator. . .a person who is there to give help when asked and only give
the help asked for.

<<<Which brings me to another question.  How to teach them spelling,
vocabulary, phonograms to help them read.  Are there "tools" you do
use to help them learn? Do you limit their TV/computer game time?  Do
you go to the library a lot?  I guess I'm just having trouble
imagineing my kids initiating a "learning experience"!  Does
unschooling put them behind academically?  I mean, you want them to be
able to basic adding and subtracting by a certain age and then
multiplying and dividing by another age, right? 

Actually, I don't care when they care to read, add, subtract, whatever. I
have no time tables for them . . . I know that just by living the best life
they live and doing what they love, they will learn what they need to learn.
I don't teach them anything. Lelia is quite a fine writer just be being left
to write what she finds meaningful to her. I don't buy into the concept of
"behind". I don't limit TV. . . she seems to limit it herself, and there are
times she watches quite a bit, and times she watches nothing at all. We go to
the library almost every week.

For us, unschooling is more a way of life than a way of school. . . my
husband and I have the most to unlearn and are working diligently at that. I
suspect because your mother does the homeschooling that this may be quite
difficult. I would tend to think she may need to be "fired" for lack of a
better term if you decide that unschooling is what you choose. The message
board on this site are a good way to get more ideas. . .they may help you
figure out if this is what you are looking for. I wish you good luck and many
blessings in your journey.

lovemary
If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

>I guess I'm just having trouble
>imagineing my kids initiating a "learning experience"! Does
>unschooling put them behind academically? I mean, you want them to be
>able to basic adding and subtracting by a certain age and then
>multiplying and dividing by another age, right?

No, no specific age is required for a specific piece of learning, such as
multiplication. I believe in letting kids take their time and learn
thoroughly. Learning too soon, for an individual child's level of
readiness, creates failure experiences that make learning harder.

I know what follows is going to sound harsh, and I hope you will forgive
me. I'm intending it to be eye-opening.

Forcing kids to do lessons until they hate learning and shudder when one
offers learning experiences is the most efficient way to put them "behind"
in life. It's a huge handicap to overcome.

I think our society has some pretty warped ideas about education. Schools
seem to operate on the assumptions that school is an assembly line, kids
are empty tin cans, and the job of the school is to pour the information
into the empty heads before the conveyor line graduates the kids.

Kids are really good at learning. Look at how well they learn to speak.
It's a really complex job, and they do it without curriculum, just because
they desire to do it and their parents help them. I think this is a great
model for other kinds of learning.

Betsy

LisaBugg

----- Original Message -----



> So, if I understand unschooling (and I'm sure I don't) it is basically
> making everyday things you do into a "lesson" without ever telling the
> child?

Sort of. Kind of..... Not Really. ;)

Like sewing, (I think boys should learn to sew!), cutting out
> the pattern, cooking and measuring, building a model kit, kite, craft,
> etc.?

Yes to all of this. This is learning and doing ... and doing and learning.
Sometimes you learn about angles because you want to sew.

It's having them being excited about a piece of history they
> read about and heading to the library to find out more?

The word having in this sentence can be an obstacle though. Having them be
excited is not really something you can manufacture. Sometimes it is, if
you are passionate about a topic, others can catch that passion for a short
while and go with it.

It's being
> open to what they are interested in at the moment?

Yes. ;) It's being open to the moment on all levels, and it's also about
being open to what you are interested in also.
>
> We homeschool (seven years) and it's amazing what I didn't learn in
> public school about history and science. We use Christian based
> curriculum and my kids have learned historical facts about our
> founding fathers that would never get printed in public school books.

This is without a doubt true. It's also true that these books contain ideas
and "facts" that others would not agree with. One of the best times I've
had while homeschooling was the year we took 3 different history texts and
compared how they presented the same topics. We had a secular text, a
Catholic text and an Abeka text. The differences were a bit scary in places.
>
> And actually, my mother does the homeschooling. She volunteered 7
> years ago and my family and my brother's family said okay. I'm
> involved just not like she is. But I think I'm tired of hearing, "you
> need to buy another history/spelling/vocabulary book."

For sure I would be tired of this. For the most part textbooks are horrible
pieces of writing . Why buy substandard books when the library is usually
full of good books?
>
> Which brings me to another question. How to teach them spelling,
> vocabulary, phonograms to help them read.

The focus shifts from teaching to learning. A better question is how will
they learn?

Are there "tools" you do
> use to help them learn?

Everything is a tool. The sewing machine, the night's sky, the library, the
ice cream machine, antique stores.

Do you limit their TV/computer game time?

I do not. At times I have limited TV because I offered other, more
wonderful things to do and I offered them just to break our TV habit.... but
that's happened 3 times in the last 12 years or so. I have also offered
videos and games in order to break the fast pace always going habit that
we've fallen into a couple of times.

Do
> you go to the library a lot?

We do not, but that's because my personal book habit rivals the gross
national product. ;)

I guess I'm just having trouble
> imagineing my kids initiating a "learning experience"!

What is a learning experience? Is sking a question a learning experience?
Your children never ask questions? Your children never ask to go places?
Your children never watch a TV show and discuss it? All of those are
learning experiences. Your kids have initated millions of them since the
day they were born. You will need to stand back though and watch for a
while in order to see more clearly. Our society says only certain kinds of
questions posed in certain kinds of ways is *school* and therefore
sanctioned. This, of course, is bunk, but it takes awhile to see through
the cage.

Does
> unschooling put them behind academically? I mean, you want them to be
> able to basic adding and subtracting by a certain age and then
> multiplying and dividing by another age, right?

Behind what? I'm a 40 year old wife, mother of 4, former paratrooper, former
midwife, current website manager, writer of 4 articles. Am I behind other
40 year olds? Am I ahead? Which piece of knowledge makes me *smart*? I
know how to palpitate a pregnant woman's belly and find baby body parts. Am
I behind or ahead of a sonogram machine? I know absolutely nothing about
ancient Chinese history. Couldn't spot a Ming vase in a museum. (well okay,
if they had placards <g>) Am I behind other 40 year olds?

I have a 9 year old with a vocabulary that regularly impresses others. He's
a hoot to listen to. But he does not yet read fluently. He's still at the
dog/cat stage of the reading game. Is he behind or ahead of others
vocabulary wise, since most people assume you must read in order to broaden
your speaking vocabulary? I have another child, a daughter, who is so fast
with mental math her 18 year old sister blushes when she asks for help.
This child cannot read at all. Is she behind or ahead? Matter of fact,
this 7 year old can work with multiplication and division while her
subtraction is a bit weak.

Unschooling is really about that term *you want*. I want my children to be
happy, kind, peaceful human beings. I want them to take a look at the whole
world and choose parts to dive deeply into. I want them to explore their
gifts and capabilities, their interests and their fears. I don't want them
to measure themselves as behind or ahead of another person, but would prefer
they walk beside others.. I want them to live joyously, laugh often, and
take care of themselves and the world.

Dennis/Laurie Brown

----- Original Message -----
From: <elmamahnke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: May 28, 2001 6:17 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] making everyday life school

> Which brings me to another question. How to teach them spelling,
> vocabulary, phonograms to help them read. Are there "tools" you do
> use to help them learn?

This is all my opinion...but it's also based on personal experience. We
have a 12 yr old son and have homeschooled him all along. We also have a 23
yr old son who we removed from the ps system in the middle of his 8th grade
year.

Initially we followed a typical school program, only did it at home. We
used weekly field trips as our reward for accomplishing something for the
week. That may work for some, but it did NOT work well for us! You would
not believe the fights and struggles to get a teenager to do his homework.
Eventually I gave up out of desperation and for several years considered
myself a failure as a mom.

Then I stepped back and looked at what DS was doing. For starters he was
reading constantly. He was also heavily involved in video games. We
restrict what type of games are allowed in our home, but there are not many
restrictions on how much they are played. Once the game is mastered, the
kid wants to move on to something else. Just like reading a book. The book
is finished, you revel in how it all went and then look for something else
to do.

Anyway, this boy refused to take his GED when I thought he should. Then he
needed it for the type of work he decided he wanted to do (electrician), so
he signed up for the test. I kept after him to study...with NO luck, of
course! The day of the test arrives, he takes it and we wait for the
results. Now, I'm certain he is going to fail because we have not done
anything academic for several years. The stinker passed the test with
flying colors the first time! I hate it when the kid shows me how wrong I
was. <g>

Do you limit their TV/computer game time? Do
> you go to the library a lot? I guess I'm just having trouble
> imagineing my kids initiating a "learning experience"! Does
> unschooling put them behind academically? I mean, you want them to be
> able to basic adding and subtracting by a certain age and then
> multiplying and dividing by another age, right?

With DS #2 (age 12 now), we have been relaxed about our schooling all along.
I wish I could say I was wise enough to realize he'd learn from life, but
the reality is that my health problems keep me from pursuing a formal
academic education. I never know from one day (hour really!) to the next
how I'm going to be feeling. So, year after year we just don't 'get around'
to much formal education.

The results? He's reading at a college level. Isn't at all interested in
youth books (with the exception of Harry Potter, but DH and I love them,
too), but devours adult books. We are often reading the same series as a
family.

Math? He was doing addition, subtraction, multiplication and division
before he was 6. For quite a while he had to figure the answer out rather
than having it memorized, but that tells me he knows how to use his brain to
think things through. Plus, I firmly believe that if someone has to work
for the answer they will always remember it!

One 'difficulty' we had is friends and relatives quizzing him. What's 2X2?
How do you spell....? That sort of thing. This gave DS some frustration
for a while because he didn't know the answer as fast as the friend/relative
thought he should. What we were eventually able to show him is that he knew
the answer or how to find it, but the friend/relative had used a different
language to ask the question. For instance if they had asked him what is 2
two's, he'd have known. I still get busy body relatives wanting to give me
teaching aids so I can bring him up to grade level. But it only takes a
little real interaction with him to know he's doing just fine. IMO knowing
how to find the answer and being willing to make the effort is at least as
important as having answers already memorized. Maybe more important. Most
of life doesn't come with packaged answers.

But I've strayed from the question! Sorry.

Do I care what age he reads, writes or multiplies? Heck no! It will come
when he's ready or has a need for it.

An example...recently he accepted a challenge from his sunday school teacher
to read his scriptures every day and write his thoughts in a journal. At
first he was having a very difficult time with the writing and felt his
skills were low. But because it was important to him, he kept at it day
after day. This was a goal he accepted. I refuse to nag him about it.
It's his goal, it's his responsibility. I will encourage him. Tell him
good job for accomplishing his goal. Maybe even brag about how well he is
keeping to a goal he chose. I will help him spell and I even delay bedtime
when I'm tired so he can finish the task he has set for himself. (There are
limits to this...I have legitimate needs, too, and sleep is one of them!)

Well, almost 6 months later, he's still reading and writing daily and has
not missed a single day! His writing skills have improved simply because he
practiced. His spelling skills have also improved because of practice. In
the beginning I had to help him figure out how to spell a LOT of words each
day. Now we go for days without his asking me how to spell something.

I can't imagine what a struggle it would have been for both of us if I tried
to impose a goal I had created on him. I've been there, done that with the
oldest son. It was not fun and he still did just fine in spite of my
interferance.

With spelling, I ask DS how he thinks it's spelled. He usually can spell
it like it sounds, which means I can read what he's written. Since the
primary purpose of writing is either to help the writer remember something
or to communicate a thought to another, he meets the need either way. So, I
have him write it out and then I read it out loud to him, showing him that I
can read it. This has built his confidence in his abilities. With
confidence he had the nerve to try more and harder words. Since he reads so
much, he now will see a word and recognize it's not right. So, he tries
again until he's satisfied or decides it's not that important for that word
at this time. It is working well for us.

Moral of this long story is trust yourself and trust your children. If it
feels good for your family, follow that path. I'm firmly convinced that no
one is able to truly be lazy. It is human nature to be doing something!
Boredom is a signal of the need to engage in some activity. Left to their
own devices every one will find something to do. It may look like not much,
but they will be doing something. Expose your children to the life. Don't
be afraid to include things that are important to you. They'll become
involved.

When it comes down to it, who cares whether they learned to multiply when
they were 8 or 30?! For that matter, many people use a calculator. If they
never learned to multiply it wouldn't be the end of the world. It might be
inconvenient, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

My (lengthy) 2 cents worth,
Eiraul

Tracy Oldfield

Other folk have answered this, but I just wanted to add that for
me unschooling's not about making life into school, it's about
taking school out of life. Taking all the segregation of subjects
and expectations of performance at certain ages away and
returning the freedom to learn and more importantly live at their
own pace to our children. How the heck do I get so eloquent at
this time of night??!!

Tracy

scrunchy

I agree!! I am glad you are so eloquent right now. Thanks. :)
Norma


Tracy Oldfield wrote:

> Other folk have answered this, but I just wanted to add that for
> me unschooling's not about making life into school, it's about
> taking school out of life. Taking all the segregation of subjects
> and expectations of performance at certain ages away and
> returning the freedom to learn and more importantly live at their
> own pace to our children. How the heck do I get so eloquent at
> this time of night??!!
>
> Tracy
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I see in my massive mail pile that others have answered this, but I wanted to
answer without looking first, because sometimes getting two of the same
answer is reinforcing.

<< It's having them being excited about a piece of history they
read about and heading to the library to find out more? >>

That's still all book stuff. All the way from reading something in a book to
going to the library for another book is a small slice of the world. There
is history outside of books--in antique stores, in buildings themselves, old
roadbeds, old trucks, old trees and bridges, museums, movies, music, art, etc.

<<How to teach them spelling,
vocabulary, phonograms to help them read. Are there "tools" you do
use to help them learn?>>

Not schoolish kinds of tools.

<<Do you limit their TV/computer game time?>>

We don't. Life limits it, they limit it, but we don't.

<<Do you go to the library a lot?>>

We don't, but if we didn't own many thousands of books ourselves we might.

<<I guess I'm just having trouble
imagineing my kids initiating a "learning experience"! >>

I recommend that you go to www.unschooling.com and read everything that even
vaguely interests you. What you're expecting is for kids to spontaneously be
schoolish, I think. When your expectations and understandings change you'll
see LOTS of learning.

<<Does unschooling put them behind academically?>>

Most of the kids at school are behind academically.
Most school work repeats for three years, at least. Kids learn it once, and
so on the second repeat some kids are ignoring it because they already know
it, and others are ignoring it because they know there'll be a third repeat
(if not fifth and seventh).

My kids are ahead in some ways and behind in some ways, but they are exactly
where they are. So are kids at school, but the kids at school are being
pressured and shamed and "graded" and teased and my kids aren't getting any
of that.

<<I mean, you want them to be
able to basic adding and subtracting by a certain age and then
multiplying and dividing by another age, right? >>>

No.

Yes. I want them to be able to do all that by the time they are grown.
They've figured it all out on their own or by asking questions. Holly
divides in her head. She wouldn't know how to set up a long division problem
on paper, but she can divide in her head better than most adults I know (by
whatever system she uses, it's none of my business--she just does it), and
she can use a calculator too. She's nine.

"Making everyday life school" is not my goal. My goal is to allow my
children the opportunity to avoid "school" altogether, not find more school
outside of schools.

What they do is learn from everyday life.


Sandra

Laura Yolo

-- SandraDodd@... wrote:
> There
> is history outside of books--in antique stores, in
> buildings themselves, old
> roadbeds, old trucks, old trees and bridges,
> museums, movies, music, art, etc.

Yes, yes, yes! This is so true, why don't public
schools see this?

> My kids are ahead in some ways and behind in some
> ways, but they are exactly
> where they are. So are kids at school, but the kids
> at school are being
> pressured and shamed and "graded" and teased and my
> kids aren't getting any
> of that.

This is what I'm trying to counter-act at home with my
dd's who attend ps, this is really what my "I need
advice" post was all about.

> "Making everyday life school" is not my goal. My
> goal is to allow my
> children the opportunity to avoid "school"
> altogether, not find more school
> outside of schools.
>
> What they do is learn from everyday life.

Thanks Sandra! For your great reply to this post:-)


=====
Laura, blessed to be the mommy of
Jenny 11/6/85
Shaw 5/22/87
Ryan 7/9/89
Noah 3/9/92
Aidan 1/24/00

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