Stephanie Currier

Lynda writes

>>IMHO, that is why homeschooling, in particular, and generally, any freedom
of choice style (LLL, unschooling, midwives, homebirths, simplified living,
alternative life styles) are so hard for the average person to accept. The
ps system, here and elsewhere in the world, is geared to train people to not
question certain basic facts (these may be different depending on the
country/religion/school). To do so is considered abnormal and those that do
so are considered rebellious, different and a threat. And most folks want
to fit in, be part of something, belong to something whether they realise it
or not. Ye ol' herd instinct, doncha know.
>>>

I think that the herd instinct needs to be traced back even farther than
that, as well.
Into the *why* of a herd instinct....which goes back to economics and fear.

We watched The Education of Little Tree movie this past weekend, and were
happy to
see such a movie made so honestly. It didn't glamorize one way against
another as being
The Anwer, yet it well-addressed a long history of intentional blindness
that some don't
recognize as being alive and well.

Jmo,
Steph

Lynda

Geez Louise, how to say this without starting a real controversy. Oh well,
guess I'll just jump right in.

The Education of Little Tree is a fraud. The author was not an orphan, he
wasn't raised by his grandparents, he was a racist of the first order (KKK),
is NOT Cherokee, it is not an autobiography and he didn't know from anything
about the Cherokee culture. He invented the words he used in the novel,
they are NOT even Cherokee. In fact, he was the speech writer that came up
with the now enfamous, (don't remember exact words but these are close
enough for MOST people <g>), "Segregation then, segregation now, segregation
forever."

And before anyone gets their bloomers in a bunch or knots in their thong
(which is probably more current <g>), here are tons of references:

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/carter.html

http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9502/0242.html

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/CC/fcaak.html

http://aises.uthscsa.edu/general/1998/0189.html

http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~wmwines/WASP/essays/literary_hoaxes.html

Sorry,

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Currier" <clownofgod@...>
>
> We watched The Education of Little Tree movie this past weekend, and were
> happy to
> see such a movie made so honestly. It didn't glamorize one way against
> another as being
> The Anwer, yet it well-addressed a long history of intentional blindness
> that some don't
> recognize as being alive and well.
>
> Jmo,
> Steph

[email protected]

Lynda, you wrote

<< And before anyone gets their bloomers in a bunch or knots in their thong
(which is probably more current <g>) >>

I would like to ask as calmly and respectfully as possible that you try not
to be so antagonistic and insulting.

The Education of Little Tree is indeed fraudulent as it was originally
presented. It was published by the University of New Mexico Press and so the
unfolding of the discovery was big in local news. In the long run, the book
was recategorized as fiction and is still found useful by lots of people for
its philosophy and inspiration, I suppose, which is what lots of novels are
good for.

I'm not defending the book. I haven't read it. I have friends who have and
liked it.

I'm defending balance and calm. Lots of writers and artists and musicians
were drunks or addicts or perverts or gamblers or whatever. We're not
building religions out of them. I see no reason to reject all of an artist's
product because of his or her political or sexual or biochemical bent. I
know some people will disagree with me. Photographs by a heterosexual with
no discovered sexual misconduct are more respected by some people (whether
they're good or not) than photographs by someone who is gay or lesbian.
People who believe that way would probably not say "gay or lesbian," though.
Prejudices are all around us and it seems to me we might as well not make
them worse unnecessarily.

Sandra

Stephanie Currier

>>Just curious, though, how can one be inspired or philosophical over a book
of lies. How does one find inspiration or find its "philosophy" useful if
one knows the whole book is based on a lie and that a good percentage of
what he wrote as being "the Cherokee way" or words from the Cherokee
language were things he made up?

Lynda>>

I suppose this is directed at me?

Seems to me that you got into a tizzy rather quickly so I'll just smile and
keep typing without trying to calm you down. :)

I was inspired by the sights of the Smokey mountains. Were those pictures
fraudulent? Maybe I should check. Afterall, I wouldn't want to grasp
something
and ponder it's beauty without making sure it is authentic.

I was inspired by the *ideas* of the earth beneath one's feet, by a movie
that would
show illegal and distasteful things and yet put them in context to a time
and a struggle.
My daughter and I have talked about many things that were in the movie
before, finding
a place for yourself, kids being competent enough to do many things adults
won't allow
them to try, etc. Along with the other movie that she watched,
where the idea of a girl building a shelter with whale bone was introduced
to her, she was
inspired to see children DOing things, and having necessity to do them.

Surely you don't mean to suggest that the ideas in the movie are white
supremacist ideas?

I happen to have Cherokee heritage, along with Shawnee.
While my mother could live on a reservation and has done research, I have
never cared to.
Her natural bent is towards studying geneology and history whereas I tend to
be more into concepts,
and philosophies, and ideas. After watching the movie I thought, "I should
ask for her
research and books."

Sounds curiously like unschooling to me, rather than traditional schooling
where I'd be given someone's facts to follow no farther than they suggest.
Not because of watching a movie and thinking the people themselves were
real, but
that the ideas were worth exploring.
Which I still believe they are. They are some of the same ideas we've
explored as Unschoolers,
which aren't all that easy to find in movies.

I don't think I'll do that research you suggest, but you have fun trying to
burst balloons with your little needle.

Steph

Lynda

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Currier" <clownofgod@...>


> I suppose this is directed at me?

***Nope, and speaking of misplaced, not unless you are now Sandra and you
wrote the post I was answering, it couldn't have been directed at you.
>
> Seems to me that you got into a tizzy rather quickly so I'll just smile
and
> keep typing without trying to calm you down. :)

***A tizzy, I don't think so, just answering a post which was in defense of
a liar and a fraud. Quite frankly, real American Indians get tired of all
the new-agers and all the bull that is out there from self-appointed
"experts." The only calming that would be needed is when we get into a
giggle fit over some of the comments folks make such as "my father's
grandmother was a Cherokee princess." If they only knew what that phrase
meant <<<bewg>>> Which, of course, being part Cherokee you would know,
right?
>
> I was inspired by the sights of the Smokey mountains. Were those pictures
> fraudulent? Maybe I should check. Afterall, I wouldn't want to grasp
> something and ponder it's beauty without making sure it is authentic.

***Hey, who knows since half the places that are suppose to be a certain
place aren't and half the movies have "reality" created by computer
graphics. Might not be authentic. I wasn't on the set of that particular
movie but the ones I was on were rarely what they purported to be.
>
> I was inspired by the *ideas* of the earth beneath one's feet, by a movie
> that would
> show illegal and distasteful things and yet put them in context to a time
> and a struggle.
> My daughter and I have talked about many things that were in the movie
> before, finding
> a place for yourself, kids being competent enough to do many things adults
> won't allow
> them to try, etc. Along with the other movie that she watched,
> where the idea of a girl building a shelter with whale bone was introduced
> to her, she was
> inspired to see children DOing things, and having necessity to do them.

***That great, I'm happy for your daughter. And hopefully her mother would
share with her that this was not a true story.
>
> Surely you don't mean to suggest that the ideas in the movie are white
> supremacist ideas?

***Surely you aren't saying that his ideas weren't his own, that he didn't
write the book or he wasn't a white supremacist?
>
> I happen to have Cherokee heritage, along with Shawnee.
> While my mother could live on a reservation and has done research, I have
> never cared to.
> Her natural bent is towards studying geneology and history whereas I tend
to
> be more into concepts,
> and philosophies, and ideas. After watching the movie I thought, "I should
> ask for her
> research and books."

***And if, as you say, your mother "could live on a reservation," then she
would be an enrolled tribal member of one of the tribes that has a
reservation and would have received a copy of the letter the Cherokee Nation
sent out about their thoughts on this movie, right?
>
> Sounds curiously like unschooling to me, rather than traditional schooling
> where I'd be given someone's facts to follow no farther than they suggest.
> Not because of watching a movie and thinking the people themselves were
> real, but
> that the ideas were worth exploring.
> Which I still believe they are. They are some of the same ideas we've
> explored as Unschoolers,
> which aren't all that easy to find in movies.

***Rather contradictory, don't you think. First you don't want to be given
"someone's facts" and then you don't want to research to find the truth.
>
> I don't think I'll do that research you suggest, but you have fun trying
to
> burst balloons with your little needle.

***Gee, strange comment coming from a supposed unschooler since generally
speaking they don't accept what is dished up as fact and are more inclined
to search out the truth. But I guess from the snippy little comments, the
"little needle" must have gotten close <g>

Lynda

Betsy Hill

>I was inspired by the *ideas* of the earth beneath one's feet, by a movie
>that would
>show illegal and distasteful things and yet put them in context to a time
>and a struggle.

Oh, that reminds me, isn't the famous Chief Seattle speech a fake, or at
least an after the fact reconstruction? I still find it inspiring.
However, I wish I could know what he really said.

Betsy, on the fence again

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/22/2001 12:09:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:


> The Education of Little Tree is a fraud.

IMO, it really doesnt matter who wrote the book or what he was . . . what
matters is the message contained in the book which is awesome. those messages
are not a fraud. . . they are real and heartwarming. i personally don't care
about what the author did in the past . . . the book has inspired some
wonderful conversations in our family and will continue to do so.

lovemary
If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

Fake, a lot of what was in the speech hadn't even happened when he
supposedly made the speech. It was a compilation of several speeches from
several people that somehow came to be credited to him.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Betsy Hill" <ecsamhill@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Herd Instinct


> >I was inspired by the *ideas* of the earth beneath one's feet, by a movie
> >that would
> >show illegal and distasteful things and yet put them in context to a time
> >and a struggle.
>
> Oh, that reminds me, isn't the famous Chief Seattle speech a fake, or at
> least an after the fact reconstruction? I still find it inspiring.
> However, I wish I could know what he really said.
>
> Betsy, on the fence again
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

LisaBugg

>
>
> > I suppose this is directed at me?
>
> ***Nope, and speaking of misplaced, not unless you are now Sandra and you
> wrote the post I was answering, it couldn't have been directed at you.
> >

Could we try not to aim answers *at* people, as if we're throwing darts.
Rather aim toward furthering the topic. Thanks. ;)

Lisa

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/22/2001 1:22:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:


> Quite frankly, real American Indians get tired of all
> the new-agers and all the bull that is out there from self-appointed
> "experts."
>
> Really?? Hmm. . . my experience has not been this. A group of "new-agers"
> as you call them was welcomed with open hearts and arms into a Lakota-Sioux
> sundance. They are open to hearing of others experiences and seeing if they
> can use that information to benefit their journey.
>
> I was thinking about this the other day after discussing vision quest
> things with a friend of mine. She has incorporated some of the native
> things and some things she has gathered on her own to create her own way
> of leading vision quests. Of course, it is not the "true" Lakota way,
> rather it is her own way that she has felt led to lead (that sounds kinda
> funny!). Anyway, my point is that different cultures and belief systems can
> "borrow" ideas and ways of doing things and have their own thing. I can
> "borrow" some of the ideas in Little Tree and use them in my own life. We
> can get all caught up in the truth and what that may or may not be
> according to some expert. I prefer to trust my own intuition about what is
>

lovemary
If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephanie Currier

***That great, I'm happy for your daughter. And hopefully her mother would
share with her that this was not a true story.>>>

Her mother never told her that it WAS a true story to begin with. :)
That is what you don't seem to understand with all of your misdirected
vehemence.

No, I'm not Sandra, although I agree with what she said. She's one smart
lady.

As for me,
If an American Indian person had said "I take offense to that movie or ___
idea
that you have stated, Stephanie." I would have responded with an apology and
an inquiry for
further explaination. I would have been happy to.

My stating my heritage was just a way of saying that I am not out to malign
anyone "else"s heritage
by enjoying the movie. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh. I also think that I clearly
stated that it wasn't something
I had been interesting in digging into before, though my mother has been
passionate about her studies,
so you can't accuse me of acting like some expert.

That you brought up the fraudulent past of the author/movie, is not what I
take issue with. Good
to know, I suppose. It didn't negate the inspirational tone or message FOR
ME. I'm sorry if that
upsets you, but it isn't my problem. That you do get honestly upset and
heated over such a thing
seems silly to me. Misdirected, at the least.

Steph

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/22/01 11:23:12 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:


> ***Nope, and speaking of misplaced, not unless you are now Sandra and you
>

Instead of "answering posts" how about we all discuss issues?
I was criticized last week for quoting from three different posts in one
response, but I was responding to the subject matter and the ideas, not to an
individual. I think that's the way things work best for many readers. I am
tired of having things directed at me personally, too. It's flattering in a
being-stalked kind of way, but it's tiresome for me and absolutely tireseome
for other readers.

-=-A tizzy, I don't think so, just answering a post which was in defense of
a liar and a fraud. -=-

I did not defend a liar and a fraud. Please read carefully and thoughtfully,
and discuss issues philosophically instead of personally. I was defending
fairness and calm.

-=-.  Quite frankly, real American Indians get tired of all
the new-agers and all the bull that is out there from self-appointed
"experts."  The only calming that would be needed is when we get into a
giggle fit over some of the comments folks make such as "my father's
grandmother was a Cherokee princess."  If they only knew what that phrase
meant <<<bewg>>>  Which, of course, being part Cherokee you would know,
right?-=-

This is antagonistic, unnecessarily.
There are full-blooded Indians who know very little of their own heritage.
There are half and quarter who are fully active (I'm thinking Pueblos and
Navajos, about whom I know more than other groups) in the
community--ceremonials and dances and all. There are missionaries who have
lived three generations on the reservation who know a HUGE amount of the
history and culture and language.

Knowledge doesn't come from ancestry.

-=-***That great, I'm happy for your daughter.  And hopefully her mother would
share with her that this was not a true story.-=-

This, too, is sarcastic and insulting.

-=-***And if, as you say, your mother "could live on a reservation," then she
would be an enrolled tribal member of one of the tribes that has a
reservation and would have received a copy of the letter the Cherokee Nation
sent out about their thoughts on this movie, right?-=-

Sarcasm.

-=-Gee, strange comment coming from a supposed unschooler since generally
speaking they don't accept what is dished up as fact and are more inclined
to search out the truth.  But I guess from the snippy little comments, the
"little needle" must have gotten close <g>-=-

Rude sarcasm and the grin doesn't redeem it a bit.



Lynda, now this is direct, and I apologize. You have twice now ignored
requests for documentation of details you have presented. Please answer
these questions, or drop out of the discussion (or throw a fit and insult me,
but the third is certainly not the best choice):

Where do you live?
Are you "a real American Indian [getting tired of all the new-agers and all
the bull...]?
How old are your children?
Have you always homeschooled?
Are you an unschooler?

Do you believe that lies are always bad? (Like fictionalized profiles which
are insulting and antagonistic?)

I'm not being hypothetical in the least.
We're spending a lot of time reading your long posts, and I would like to
know how much merit they deserve. I have endured a lot of insult, and would
like to have the stats on my seemingly-dedicated detractor.

Sandra












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

>-=-***That great, I'm happy for your daughter.  And hopefully her
mother
>would
>share with her that this was not a true story.-=-

Bending this off in another direction, we were watching Robin Hood
this week. (The one w. Errol Flynn.) To me, Robin Hood is just about
the most inspiring character in all of English literature. How much
of the tales about Robin Hood are true?

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/22/01 4:00:01 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< Bending this off in another direction, we were watching Robin Hood

this week. (The one w. Errol Flynn.) To me, Robin Hood is just about

the most inspiring character in all of English literature. How much

of the tales about Robin Hood are true? >>

When my kids ask me if such things are true, I say "Some of it might be, but
other stories were added."

The other night I was reading some Robin Hood to Holly for bedtime. It
mentioned Robin Hood ballads and Holly asked if I knew any. I know one.
I've heard several, and I have a book full, but I was able to sing her the
one I knew (Robin Hood and the Friars) and she was impressed. (I was
impressed to remember it all! <g>)

It's pretty inspiring. But it's not a lie. It's tradition.

Sandra

Lynda

As this is a direct invitation to flame, I have taken my answer off-list.
Although, Sandra does have my permission to post to the list but only if she
doesn't do anymore creative editing.

However, I will answer one part on the list. Do I believe that lies are
always bad? Well, I believe we took up a lot of list space discussing just
this thing not to long ago. My answer stands. Define lie. Like child
abuse, religion, and politics, everyone has their own definition.

However, I find that lies that harm others to be totally unacceptable. Lies
that steal from another I find to be totally unacceptable.

I don't find "misinformation" in an age when the U.S. has become the next
thing to being a police state to be unacceptable.

And, I think it is down right silly to jump from misinformation on an
internet profile to a comparision with someone who invented a whole new
persona with the intent to defraud the general public and to make money off
of it. A persona that stole its identify from a group of people that have
reached their saturation point with things stolen by white men.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Herd Instinct


> In a message dated 5/22/01 11:23:12 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> lurine@... writes:
>
>
> > ***Nope, and speaking of misplaced, not unless you are now Sandra and
you
> >
>
> Instead of "answering posts" how about we all discuss issues?
> I was criticized last week for quoting from three different posts in one
> response, but I was responding to the subject matter and the ideas, not to
an
> individual. I think that's the way things work best for many readers. I
am
> tired of having things directed at me personally, too. It's flattering in
a
> being-stalked kind of way, but it's tiresome for me and absolutely
tireseome
> for other readers.
>
> -=-A tizzy, I don't think so, just answering a post which was in defense
of
> a liar and a fraud. -=-
>
> I did not defend a liar and a fraud. Please read carefully and
thoughtfully,
> and discuss issues philosophically instead of personally. I was defending
> fairness and calm.
>
> -=-. Quite frankly, real American Indians get tired of all
> the new-agers and all the bull that is out there from self-appointed
> "experts." The only calming that would be needed is when we get into a
> giggle fit over some of the comments folks make such as "my father's
> grandmother was a Cherokee princess." If they only knew what that phrase
> meant <<<bewg>>> Which, of course, being part Cherokee you would know,
> right?-=-
>
> This is antagonistic, unnecessarily.
> There are full-blooded Indians who know very little of their own heritage.
> There are half and quarter who are fully active (I'm thinking Pueblos and
> Navajos, about whom I know more than other groups) in the
> community--ceremonials and dances and all. There are missionaries who
have
> lived three generations on the reservation who know a HUGE amount of the
> history and culture and language.
>
> Knowledge doesn't come from ancestry.
>
> -=-***That great, I'm happy for your daughter. And hopefully her mother
would
> share with her that this was not a true story.-=-
>
> This, too, is sarcastic and insulting.
>
> -=-***And if, as you say, your mother "could live on a reservation," then
she
> would be an enrolled tribal member of one of the tribes that has a
> reservation and would have received a copy of the letter the Cherokee
Nation
> sent out about their thoughts on this movie, right?-=-
>
> Sarcasm.
>
> -=-Gee, strange comment coming from a supposed unschooler since generally
> speaking they don't accept what is dished up as fact and are more inclined
> to search out the truth. But I guess from the snippy little comments, the
> "little needle" must have gotten close <g>-=-
>
> Rude sarcasm and the grin doesn't redeem it a bit.
>
>
>
> Lynda, now this is direct, and I apologize. You have twice now ignored
> requests for documentation of details you have presented. Please answer
> these questions, or drop out of the discussion (or throw a fit and insult
me,
> but the third is certainly not the best choice):
>
> Where do you live?
> Are you "a real American Indian [getting tired of all the new-agers and
all
> the bull...]?
> How old are your children?
> Have you always homeschooled?
> Are you an unschooler?
>
> Do you believe that lies are always bad? (Like fictionalized profiles
which
> are insulting and antagonistic?)
>
> I'm not being hypothetical in the least.
> We're spending a lot of time reading your long posts, and I would like to
> know how much merit they deserve. I have endured a lot of insult, and
would
> like to have the stats on my seemingly-dedicated detractor.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Betsy Hill

>The other night I was reading some Robin Hood to Holly for bedtime.
<snip>
>
>It's pretty inspiring. But it's not a lie. It's tradition.

I've heard that a physical object has to be 50 years old to be classified
as antique. (At 25 years, it's "collectable").

How old does a good yarn have to be to stop being a falsehood and start
being a tradition? Hmmmmm....

I used to think that the difference between art and propaganda is that art
has the intention to tell the truth, whereas propaganda's clear intention
is to manipulate and deceive. But, fiction and mythology are "true" on a
gut level, but not so much factually true. That messes up my idea.

Anyone have enough ideas about philosophy to take on "What is Truth?" and
"Is There Such a Thing as Truth?

Betsy

Johanna

***Hey, who knows since half the places that are suppose to be a certain
place aren't and half the movies have "reality" created by computer
graphics. Might not be authentic. I wasn't on the set of that particular
movie but the ones I was on were rarely what they purported to be.
Lynda


If you have ever seen the live version of The Jungle Book Disney did a few years back, the wonderful waterfall in it is actually in Tennessee, not India.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Herd Instinct




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Johanna

I don't think we will ever know for sure.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: Betsy Hill
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Herd Instinct


>-=-***That great, I'm happy for your daughter. And hopefully her
mother
>would
>share with her that this was not a true story.-=-

Bending this off in another direction, we were watching Robin Hood
this week. (The one w. Errol Flynn.) To me, Robin Hood is just about
the most inspiring character in all of English literature. How much
of the tales about Robin Hood are true?

Betsy



Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom

Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

We worked on a few disney and disney type films and had a couple (or was it
three) Hitchcock films done in our "backyard" and none of them were done
where they were suppose to.

The Birds is supposedly set in a Cornish village, quite a ways from Bodega
Bay where it was actually filmed. Pollyanna is supposed to be set in "small
town America" in the midwest. It is set on a street of multi-million dollar
homes on a busy street in a city of 130,000. The "farm house" is actually
the "McDonald" Mansion.

Salem's Lot was filmed on the opposite coast and about as un-East coast as
you can get. The same little village (Ferndale, which is across the Eel
River from the location of Halloween III) which was transformed into the set
of "Outbreak." The "little people" in "The Gnome Mobile" weren't playing
anywhere near the blarney stone, they were playing across the highway from
"Jurassic Park," up here in the redwoods.

So, here's some movie trivia. What do "I Know What You Did Last Summer,"
"Finian's Rainbow" and "The Birds" have in common? They were all filmed in
Bodega Bay.

What do "Stop Or My Mom Will Shot," "Die Hard 2," "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad
World," "Scream" and "Cujo" all have in common? They were all filmed within
a couple of miles of the filming location for Pollyanna.

What do "The Goonies," "The Horse Whisperer," "Giant," "Basic Instinct,"
"Howard the Duck," "Flubber," "Tucker" and "Being John Malcovich" have in
common with "American Graffitti." Yep, you guessed it, filmed in Sonoma
County.

So with the "magic of Hollywood," one never knows where one actually is.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Johanna" <saninocencio1@...>
>
> If you have ever seen the live version of The Jungle Book Disney did a few
years back, the wonderful waterfall in it is actually in Tennessee, not
India.
> Johanna
> Life is the ultimate learning experience!
> ----- Original Message -----

Lynda

Steph, what instigated the response was "We watched The Education of Little
Tree movie this past weekend, and were happy to see such a movie made so
honestly."

Since it wasn't made "honestly," I sent the reply I did.

From the responses from several "experts" about Indians, you are correct,
there is "a long history of intentional blindness that some don't recognize
as being alive and well." This thread has clearly demonstrated that.

Lynda

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Currier" <clownofgod@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Herd Instinct


> ***That great, I'm happy for your daughter. And hopefully her mother
would
> share with her that this was not a true story.>>>
>
> Her mother never told her that it WAS a true story to begin with. :)
> That is what you don't seem to understand with all of your misdirected
> vehemence.
>
> No, I'm not Sandra, although I agree with what she said. She's one smart
> lady.
>
> As for me,
> If an American Indian person had said "I take offense to that movie or ___
> idea
> that you have stated, Stephanie." I would have responded with an apology
and
> an inquiry for
> further explaination. I would have been happy to.
>
> My stating my heritage was just a way of saying that I am not out to
malign
> anyone "else"s heritage
> by enjoying the movie. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh. I also think that I clearly
> stated that it wasn't something
> I had been interesting in digging into before, though my mother has been
> passionate about her studies,
> so you can't accuse me of acting like some expert.
>
> That you brought up the fraudulent past of the author/movie, is not what I
> take issue with. Good
> to know, I suppose. It didn't negate the inspirational tone or message FOR
> ME. I'm sorry if that
> upsets you, but it isn't my problem. That you do get honestly upset and
> heated over such a thing
> seems silly to me. Misdirected, at the least.
>
> Steph
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Stephanie Currier

>>And, I think it is down right silly to jump from misinformation on an
internet profile to a comparision with someone who invented a whole new
persona with the intent to defraud the general public and to make money off
of it. A persona that stole its identify from a group of people that have
reached their saturation point with things stolen by white men.

Lynda
>>

May I say here Lynda,
That my response to you had nothing to do with your feeling
a need to clarify *information* to the list, but with a seemingly
way-too-intense
response to a post of mine in which I said that I liked a movie. I don't
participate
in this list on a daily basis, though I'd like to. I skim and lurk and
occasionally
have a comment, so my comment had nothing to do with previous frustrations
you have with other posters on this list.

Many of the things that you've talked about in your posts, are
talked about in a non manipulative way, in that movie. The visuals are
just *there.*

It is okay that someone can't find enjoyment in something
because of various principles they personally hold. It is okay that they
say as much.
And yet, I think that with most Art, people have to be able to stand back
and objectively view the content of a work...which is not sold now
as an autobiographical work. I didn't say that it was, and yet was dealt
with
by you as a person not worthy to be an unschooler?? ICK.

Maybe you should be more careful, about taking
out your frustrations on people. You don't get to define what
an Unschooler is for me, or where I personally get inspiration from.
You understand so much about some people not imposing their
all-mighty will on others but seem to have not had a grip on that yourself
where my simple, non-offensive post was concerned.

In answer to your question, that is what I meant be "misplaced."

Steph, who, if she had an internet profile, would be honest in it

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/23/01 8:20:27 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< How old does a good yarn have to be to stop being a falsehood and start
being a tradition? Hmmmmm.... >>

With Robin Hood and other historical characters (Paul Bunyon NOT among them,
btw, as that was totally composed 19th century propaganda, and not folklore),
as things are added over centuries it becomes no longer the clear single
creation of any one person or even neighborhood and becomes the joint
property of a culture or language.

I'm really interested in ballads, and my interest is to preserve them as
they're found. Others are into changing them. Now obviously they've been
changed, or there wouldn't be so many different versions. But gradual,
natural changes in something people are attempting to preserve are appealing
to me personally, as a study in geography and time and distance. So I'm
conservative about folklore versions. I want purer and older, an
anthropological "clean catch." Others think "What the heck, I'm putting
names to the characters and changing the ending!" Not purists. <g>

Robin Hood wouldn't have so many adventures were it not for ballads. And
Robin Hood might be barely known to us at all if it weren't for Howard Pyle
and some of the other Victorian medievalists.

I love that stuff! It's fun when my kids show an interest, but I don't press
it on them.

(My boys can recite "Men in Tights" and I've never even been able to watch
the whole show...)

Sandra

Johanna

ok.
I have been oft ridiculed because I don't let my children believe Santa Claus comes to peoples houses. He is a fun myth and my children know it. Why do I do this? I remember being six years old and being told Santa Claus wasn't real in the sandbox at school. (rather viciously, I might add) I was furious my mother had lied to me. She spent much time teaching me to tell the truth. I didn't trust her after that. Truth can be used as an excuse for rudeness also. Where is the line between tact and truthfulness? I have often wrestled with it.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: Betsy Hill
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Herd Instinct


>The other night I was reading some Robin Hood to Holly for bedtime.
<snip>
>
>It's pretty inspiring. But it's not a lie. It's tradition.

I've heard that a physical object has to be 50 years old to be classified
as antique. (At 25 years, it's "collectable").

How old does a good yarn have to be to stop being a falsehood and start
being a tradition? Hmmmmm....

I used to think that the difference between art and propaganda is that art
has the intention to tell the truth, whereas propaganda's clear intention
is to manipulate and deceive. But, fiction and mythology are "true" on a
gut level, but not so much factually true. That messes up my idea.

Anyone have enough ideas about philosophy to take on "What is Truth?" and
"Is There Such a Thing as Truth?

Betsy





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom

Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

walton tribe

"Unlurking"...
Just to let you know, Johanna, you are not alone in this. We have not
succumbed to the "Santa thing" either. Just a matter of choice, but boy,
do we get flack about it from family...grin...We don't do the tooth-fairy,
easter bunny, etc, either, just in case you are wondering. And, we do still
celebrate these holidays, just put the emphasis on a different perspective
than what most people do. And my children know that some families chose to
enjoy the santa, toothfairy, etc, and that it is NOT alright for them to
disclose the truth, that they might hurt someones feelings, and that it is
up to each family to decide when to disclose that these things are just for
fun. They just play along w/ cousins, etc. when they are talking about these
things. anyway, i will go back into "lurk-mode" again. grin

Annette in Indiana

----- Original Message -----
From: "Johanna" <saninocencio1@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Herd Instinct


> ok.
> I have been oft ridiculed because I don't let my children believe Santa
Claus comes to peoples houses. He is a fun myth and my children know it. Why
do I do this? I remember being six years old and being told Santa Claus
wasn't real in the sandbox at school. (rather viciously, I might add) I was
furious my mother had lied to me. She spent much time teaching me to tell
the truth. I didn't trust her after that. Truth can be used as an excuse for
rudeness also. Where is the line between tact and truthfulness? I have often
wrestled with it.
> Johanna
> Life is the ultimate learning experience!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Betsy Hill
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Herd Instinct
>
>
> >The other night I was reading some Robin Hood to Holly for bedtime.
> <snip>
> >
> >It's pretty inspiring. But it's not a lie. It's tradition.
>
> I've heard that a physical object has to be 50 years old to be
classified
> as antique. (At 25 years, it's "collectable").
>
> How old does a good yarn have to be to stop being a falsehood and start
> being a tradition? Hmmmmm....
>
> I used to think that the difference between art and propaganda is that
art
> has the intention to tell the truth, whereas propaganda's clear
intention
> is to manipulate and deceive. But, fiction and mythology are "true" on
a
> gut level, but not so much factually true. That messes up my idea.
>
> Anyone have enough ideas about philosophy to take on "What is Truth?"
and
> "Is There Such a Thing as Truth?
>
> Betsy
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Betsy Hill

> I used to think that the difference between art and propaganda is that
art
> has the intention to tell the truth, whereas propaganda's clear
intention
> is to manipulate and deceive. But, fiction and mythology are "true" on
a
> gut level, but not so much factually true. That messes up my idea.

(I know it's awfully conceited to quote myself, but I wanted to link this
to another thread.)

I would have to say that Elsie Dinesmore sounds like propaganda -- a book
designed to tell children how they should feel, rather than how they are
likely to feel.

I think Little Woman must have been very refreshing when it was published.
Jo struggles to be good, but she sometimes fails. Readers can really
identify with her, rather than feel inferior to her.

Betsy