MICHAEL MARTINEZ

In Teach Your Own John Holt answers the question, "How are we going to prevent parents with narrow and bigoted ideas from passing these on to their children?" Holt asks first whether we have a right to try to prevent it. He then replies: "One of the main differences between a free country and a police state, I always thought, was that in a free country, as long as you obeyed the law, you could believe whatever you liked. Your beliefs were none of the government's business." Holt explains that it is also not the government's business to decide which ideas are good and which are bad, and which will be taught to our children and which will not. He adds, "From this it must follow that people not only have the right to believe what they want, but to pass their beliefs along to their children."

We might remind ourselves of this when our teaching methods and family discipline methods come under fire ... or before we "fire" on someone else.

Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...
My Website: http://www.easyfunschool.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eileen M.

It *is* a great quote... thanks!

Eileen

--- MICHAEL MARTINEZ <mamkmm2@...> wrote:
> In Teach Your Own John Holt answers the question,
> "How are we going to prevent parents with narrow and
> bigoted ideas from passing these on to their
> children?" Holt asks first whether we have a right
> to try to prevent it. He then replies: "One of the
> main differences between a free country and a police
> state, I always thought, was that in a free country,
> as long as you obeyed the law, you could believe
> whatever you liked. Your beliefs were none of the
> government's business." Holt explains that it is
> also not the government's business to decide which
> ideas are good and which are bad, and which will be
> taught to our children and which will not. He adds,
> "From this it must follow that people not only have
> the right to believe what they want, but to pass
> their beliefs along to their children."
>
> We might remind ourselves of this when our teaching
> methods and family discipline methods come under
> fire ... or before we "fire" on someone else.
>
> Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...
> My Website: http://www.easyfunschool.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


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Lynda

Ah, but are we now not living in something very close to a police state <g>
Let's see, cops can haul you off to jail for not wearing a seatbelt (and can
someone please explain how the government comes to have the right to tell
you TO wear a seatbelt), your medical records now belong to the government
(so much for privacy) and the 3Rs are now more or less in charge of the
government with each month bringing more and more religion my way or the
highway into our lives (10 Commandments in schools, "my" tax dollars going
to religions I don't believe in, etc. with forced religion as part and
parcel of that whole deal) and the list goes on.

Wouldn't it be nice if government read his quote: "Holt explains that it is
also not the government's business to decide which ideas are good and which
are bad, "

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 7:45 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] This is a great quote for what has been going
on recently


> In Teach Your Own John Holt answers the question, "How are we going to
prevent parents with narrow and bigoted ideas from passing these on to their
children?" Holt asks first whether we have a right to try to prevent it. He
then replies: "One of the main differences between a free country and a
police state, I always thought, was that in a free country, as long as you
obeyed the law, you could believe whatever you liked. Your beliefs were none
of the government's business." Holt explains that it is also not the
government's business to decide which ideas are good and which are bad, and
which will be taught to our children and which will not. He adds, "From this
it must follow that people not only have the right to believe what they
want, but to pass their beliefs along to their children."
> my rants. I do realize that we ar |@And
f tiÒy@hat were kidO8Êÿ¿8Îÿ¿Éÿ¿^
>
> We might remind ourselves of this when our teaching methods and family
discipline methods come under fire ... or before we "fire" on someone else.
>
> Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...
> My Website: http://www.easyfunschool.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Tracy Oldfield

Ah, but are we now not living in something very close
to a police state <g>
Let's see, cops can haul you off to jail for not
wearing a seatbelt (and can
someone please explain how the government comes to have
the right to tell
you TO wear a seatbelt), your medical records now
belong to the government
(so much for privacy) and the 3Rs are now more or less
in charge of the
government with each month bringing more and more
religion my way or the
highway into our lives (10 Commandments in schools,
"my" tax dollars going
to religions I don't believe in, etc. with forced
religion as part and
parcel of that whole deal) and the list goes on.

Wouldn't it be nice if government read his quote:
"Holt explains that it is
also not the government's business to decide which
ideas are good and which
are bad, "

Lynda


It's been illegal over here for several years to not
wear a seat belt without an exemption. I don't know
how it was justified, but I think we've all got used to
it. It's funny, I wouldn't dream of not wearing my
seat belt, but talking on the phone or eating while I'm
driving I do. Hope there aren't any coppers reading
this :-)

Tracy

Dennis/Laurie Brown

Enforced seat belt use was justified by the supposed savings to the
community in not having so many mangled bodies to clean up after an
accident. The premise was that the community is paying for the ambulance,
the police officers, the para-medics, the hospital bill, etc. (yeah,
right!)

I am still amazed that so many communities gave over such basic freedoms to
force protection.

Eiraul...who fastens her seat belt EVERY time, but occasionally has to fight
the rebellion monster...you know, that little demon that says 'no one can
MAKE me do anything!'
>
> It's been illegal over here for several years to not
> wear a seat belt without an exemption. I don't know
> how it was justified, but I think we've all got used to
> it. It's funny, I wouldn't dream of not wearing my
> seat belt, but talking on the phone or eating while I'm
> driving I do. Hope there aren't any coppers reading
> this :-)
>
> Tracy
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
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>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

Tami Labig-Duquette

I find it amazing that (around here anyway) you HAVE to wear a seat belt and
yet some one can drive with children or anyone else in the back of a pick up
truck. I saw this again today and just wigs me out!! STUPID!
Tami


>From: "Dennis/Laurie Brown" <Brownville77@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] seat belts
>Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:09:08 -0700
>
>
>
> Enforced seat belt use was justified by the supposed savings to the
>community in not having so many mangled bodies to clean up after an
>accident. The premise was that the community is paying for the ambulance,
>the police officers, the para-medics, the hospital bill, etc. (yeah,
>right!)
>
>I am still amazed that so many communities gave over such basic freedoms to
>force protection.
>
>Eiraul...who fastens her seat belt EVERY time, but occasionally has to
>fight
>the rebellion monster...you know, that little demon that says 'no one can
>MAKE me do anything!'
> >
> > It's been illegal over here for several years to not
> > wear a seat belt without an exemption. I don't know
> > how it was justified, but I think we've all got used to
> > it. It's funny, I wouldn't dream of not wearing my
> > seat belt, but talking on the phone or eating while I'm
> > driving I do. Hope there aren't any coppers reading
> > this :-)
> >
> > Tracy
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
>

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[email protected]

Yea! Seat belts are compulsary in New Zealand too.

Marianne

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/8/2001 10:12:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Brownville77@... writes:


> I am still amazed that so many communities gave over such basic freedoms to
> force protection.
>
> Eiraul...who fastens her seat belt EVERY time, but occasionally has to fight
> the rebellion monster...you know, that little demon that says 'no one can
>

There is a man who I think was a politician but is a news person now. . .
maybe works for Cpan, but could be CNN (I know. . .pretty vague there).
Anyway, I heard him talking about how he had his seatbelts removed from his
car. He had gone to court and won to have the right to do it. Pretty
interesting stuff.

lovemary
If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Yeah,

--Diane, who fastens her seat belt NOW usually, and ALWAYS did before the
LAWS, but who didn't after the stupid nosy laws were passed until she had
valuable children to protect.

> Eiraul...who fastens her seat belt EVERY time, but occasionally has to fight
> the rebellion monster...you know, that little demon that says 'no one can
> MAKE me do anything!'

Lynda

Some places have outlawed cell phone use in cars and at least one county
(don't remember which one in which state, it was on tv a couple of weeks
ago) has outlawed eating and drinking in cars by drivers.

Watch out Tracy, they're coming after you <<<bewg>>>

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy Oldfield" <tracy.oldfield@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 6:25 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] seat belts


> Ah, but are we now not living in something very close
> to a police state <g>
> Let's see, cops can haul you off to jail for not
> wearing a seatbelt (and can
> someone please explain how the government comes to have
> the right to tell
> you TO wear a seatbelt), your medical records now
> belong to the government
> (so much for privacy) and the 3Rs are now more or less
> in charge of the
> government with each month bringing more and more
> religion my way or the
> highway into our lives (10 Commandments in schools,
> "my" tax dollars going
> to religions I don't believe in, etc. with forced
> religion as part and
> parcel of that whole deal) and the list goes on.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if government read his quote:
> "Holt explains that it is
> also not the government's business to decide which
> ideas are good and which
> are bad, "
> 
> Lynda
>
>
> It's been illegal over here for several years to not
> wear a seat belt without an exemption. I don't know
> how it was justified, but I think we've all got used to
> it. It's funny, I wouldn't dream of not wearing my
> seat belt, but talking on the phone or eating while I'm
> driving I do. Hope there aren't any coppers reading
> this :-)
>
> Tracy
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Eileen M.

I used to avoid wearing a seatbelt... I have a
sensitive inner ear, and get carsick really easily,
and the seatbelt definitely makes it worse. But six
months after I had my son my grandparents' car was hit
by a truck, hit a young tree and was flipped over. My
grandfather got a bruised knee. He was wearing a
seatbelt. My grandmother was thrown from the car and
then pinned beneath it. She wasn't wearing a
seatbelt.

My grandfather died of grief a year later.

I have worn my seatbelt religiously ever since.

Having said that, I don't know that I believe that it
should be legislated that *adults* wear seatbelts. I
think that insurance companies could perhaps refuse to
pay for injuries caused by failing to wear
seatbelts... that would certainly provide incentive to
wear them, and would also address the major problem I
can see with people who don't wear them, which is that
all our rates go up from paying for the much more
expensive injuries sustained by non belt-wearers (that
goes for wearing helmets on motorcycles as well).

Eileen


--- cen46624@... wrote:
> Yeah,
>
> --Diane, who fastens her seat belt NOW usually, and
> ALWAYS did before the
> LAWS, but who didn't after the stupid nosy laws were
> passed until she had
> valuable children to protect.
>
> > Eiraul...who fastens her seat belt EVERY time, but
> occasionally has to fight
> > the rebellion monster...you know, that little
> demon that says 'no one can
> > MAKE me do anything!'
>


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Tracy Oldfield

IThere is a man who I think was a politician but is a
news person now. . . 
maybe works for Cpan, but could be CNN (I know. .
.pretty vague there). 
Anyway, I heard him talking about how he had his
seatbelts removed from his 
car. He had gone to court and won to have the right to
do it. Pretty 
interesting stuff.

I can see the arguments against making it compulsory,
like 'what right do the gov have to tell us how to
live?' (though they do in so many other ways, that's
what governments do...) but why would anyone put
themselves and their passengers at risk like that?
I've been in a minor accident, a shunt to the rear of
the car, (well I consider it minor, but...) and had we
not been wearing seatbelts, my head would have been in
the glove-box and dh's ribs would have been broken on
the steering wheel. On our honeymoon.

And I thought I was wierd...

Tracy

Tracy Oldfield

Some places have outlawed cell phone use in cars and at
least one county
(don't remember which one in which state, it was on tv
a couple of weeks
ago) has outlawed eating and drinking in cars by
drivers.

Watch out Tracy, they're coming after you <<<bewg>>>

Lynda

Over here it comes under the 'Driving without due care
and attention' umbrella, I think. I know there was a
story last year where someone was fined for eating a
Mars bar in the car, and a friend or ours was 'finger-
wagged' at by a passing policeman for not having his
hands on the wheel while stationary at a red traffic
light.

Tracy

[email protected]

Most U.S. insurance companies won't pay for injuries sustained by failing to comply with vehicular safety laws like the seat belt law.

Donna --- (knows from experience)


[email protected] wrote:
>
> I used to avoid wearing a seatbelt... I have a
> sensitive inner ear, and get carsick really easily,
> and the seatbelt definitely makes it worse.  But six
> months after I had my son my grandparents' car was hit
> by a truck, hit a young tree and was flipped over.  My
> grandfather got a bruised knee.  He was wearing a
> seatbelt.  My grandmother was thrown from the car and
> then pinned beneath it.  She wasn't wearing a
> seatbelt.
>
> My grandfather died of grief a year later.
>
> I have worn my seatbelt religiously ever since.
>
> Having said that, I don't know that I believe that it
> should be legislated that *adults* wear seatbelts.  I
> think that insurance companies could perhaps refuse to
> pay for injuries caused by failing to wear
> seatbelts... that would certainly provide incentive to
> wear them, and would also address the major problem I
> can see with people who don't wear them, which is that
> all our rates go up from paying for the much more
> expensive injuries sustained by non belt-wearers (that
> goes for wearing helmets on motorcycles as well).
>
> Eileen
>
>
> --- cen46624@... wrote:
> > Yeah,
> >
> > --Diane, who fastens her seat belt NOW usually, and
> > ALWAYS did before the
> > LAWS, but who didn't after the stupid nosy laws were
> > passed until she had
> > valuable children to protect.
> >
> > > Eiraul...who fastens her seat belt EVERY time, but
> > occasionally has to fight
> > >  the rebellion monster...you know, that little
> > demon that says 'no one can
> > >  MAKE me do anything!'
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
>  
>
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>
>
>
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Lynda

I am paranoid about wearing seatbelts for myself although I have the kidlets
bucklet up religiously. Having worked in radiology and routinely dealt with
the folks arriving in the ER, I saw the reverse with the drowning victims,
the fire victims and various and sundry other folks who couldn't get out of
the seatbelts. We also lost a foster daughter due to the whiplash that
seatbelts can cause in some accidents. And that was a freak accident as
they were only going about 10 mph. However, the picture remains in your
head.

Another one of those one-size-fits-all that doesn't.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy Oldfield" <tracy.oldfield@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] seat belts


> IThere is a man who I think was a politician but is a
> news person now. . . 
> maybe works for Cpan, but could be CNN (I know. .
> .pretty vague there). 
> Anyway, I heard him talking about how he had his
> seatbelts removed from his 
> car. He had gone to court and won to have the right to
> do it. Pretty 
> interesting stuff.
> 
> I can see the arguments against making it compulsory,
> like 'what right do the gov have to tell us how to
> live?' (though they do in so many other ways, that's
> what governments do...) but why would anyone put
> themselves and their passengers at risk like that?
> I've been in a minor accident, a shunt to the rear of
> the car, (well I consider it minor, but...) and had we
> not been wearing seatbelts, my head would have been in
> the glove-box and dh's ribs would have been broken on
> the steering wheel. On our honeymoon.
>
> And I thought I was wierd...
>
> Tracy
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Lynda

How about the folks with kids in the back on the freeway or a dog running
back and forth like a pinball machine gone bonkers?

Makes you wonder if the driver's IQ is any higher than his shoe size!

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Labig-Duquette" <labigduquette@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] seat belts


> I find it amazing that (around here anyway) you HAVE to wear a seat belt
and
> yet some one can drive with children or anyone else in the back of a pick
up
> truck. I saw this again today and just wigs me out!! STUPID!
> Tami
>
>
> >From: "Dennis/Laurie Brown" <Brownville77@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] seat belts
> >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:09:08 -0700
> >
> >
> >
> > Enforced seat belt use was justified by the supposed savings to the
> >community in not having so many mangled bodies to clean up after an
> >accident. The premise was that the community is paying for the
ambulance,
> >the police officers, the para-medics, the hospital bill, etc. (yeah,
> >right!)
> >
> >I am still amazed that so many communities gave over such basic freedoms
to
> >force protection.
> >
> >Eiraul...who fastens her seat belt EVERY time, but occasionally has to
> >fight
> >the rebellion monster...you know, that little demon that says 'no one can
> >MAKE me do anything!'
> > >
> > > It's been illegal over here for several years to not
> > > wear a seat belt without an exemption. I don't know
> > > how it was justified, but I think we've all got used to
> > > it. It's funny, I wouldn't dream of not wearing my
> > > seat belt, but talking on the phone or eating while I'm
> > > driving I do. Hope there aren't any coppers reading
> > > this :-)
> > >
> > > Tracy
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> > >
> > > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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>