DiamondAir

From: "Eileen M." <ravensegg@...>
>In the case I gave, with a toddler who is pre-verbal,
>what is your solution for it when he insists on
>running out in front of moving cars?

Don't let them do it. Until a child is old enough to understand that large
moving object means danger for small bodies, WE (the adults) have to be
responsible for their safety. If that means holding their hand, or having
them in a sling, or carrying them, or strapping them firmly into a
stroller, so be it - even IF they are unhappy about it temporarily - they
can be free to run as soon as they are out of danger. Other options are to
minimize errands and situations where the child is near a street or parking
lot until they are old enough to understand. Eventually, they learn safety
and can take personal responsibility for their own safety. Believe me when I
say that this happens naturally (as with all other learning) and that
spanking is not necessary to bring the lesson home.

With my own kids, I've always preferred using the sling for the toddler
years. I always have my sling with me, and when in a parking lot or near a
dangerous street, I put my toddler into the sling and carry her until it is
safe for her to get down and walk or run again. She can nurse in the sling
and it is a comforting thing for her. The sling is small and fits easily
into a backpack or gets thrown into the shopping cart, stroller, or bike
trailer when I'm not using it. My son wasn't as big of a fan of the sling,
and he hated having his hand held. He always had the option of holding
hands, but if he didn't want to I would just pick him up (even if
struggling) and carry him until it was safe. This was a very difficult thing
for him for awhile, so we tried to get creative and get errands taken care
of without having to put him into that situation. As with all other phases,
this one passed and now he loves to go shopping with me and hold my hand.

There are always options, other than violence (and yes, I define hitting a
kid as violence. It certainly would be if my husband hit me to "teach me a
lesson").


Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) who has a best friend named "Eiznekcam"
and Asa (10/5/99) the girl who climbs everything!
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

Valerie

I also used a sling, but I think the main thing that made her listen
to me about danger was that we did not have a plethora of rules. She
had one rule to follow... Do not hurt yourself or anyone else.
Without all of the rules to clutter our lives, when I told her about
cars or any other danger, she listened and respected what I was
saying. We stood on the sidewalk, me kneeling beside her. I told
her, "Watch how fast the cars go." I then pointed out a small branch
on the road and told her to watch and see if the car hit it, and see
what happens to the branch if it gets hit. We watched and it happened
and her eyes got big and she said, "I'm staying on the sidewalk and
holding your hand Mommy." She wasn't two years old yet. I did what
Robin did. Laurie was my priority and thus her safety was too.

love, Valerie

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "DiamondAir" <diamondair@e...> wrote:
> From: "Eileen M." <ravensegg@y...>
> >In the case I gave, with a toddler who is pre-verbal,
> >what is your solution for it when he insists on
> >running out in front of moving cars?
>
> Don't let them do it. Until a child is old enough to understand
that large
> moving object means danger for small bodies, WE (the adults) have
to be
> responsible for their safety. If that means holding their hand, or
having
> them in a sling, or carrying them, or strapping them firmly into a
> stroller, so be it - even IF they are unhappy about it temporarily -
they
> can be free to run as soon as they are out of danger. Other options
are to
> minimize errands and situations where the child is near a street or
parking
> lot until they are old enough to understand. Eventually, they learn
safety
> and can take personal responsibility for their own safety. Believe
me when I
> say that this happens naturally (as with all other learning) and
that
> spanking is not necessary to bring the lesson home.
>
> With my own kids, I've always preferred using the sling for the
toddler
> years. I always have my sling with me, and when in a parking lot or
near a
> dangerous street, I put my toddler into the sling and carry her
until it is
> safe for her to get down and walk or run again. She can nurse in
the sling
> and it is a comforting thing for her. The sling is small and fits
easily
> into a backpack or gets thrown into the shopping cart, stroller, or
bike
> trailer when I'm not using it. My son wasn't as big of a fan of the
sling,
> and he hated having his hand held. He always had the option of
holding
> hands, but if he didn't want to I would just pick him up (even if
> struggling) and carry him until it was safe. This was a very
difficult thing
> for him for awhile, so we tried to get creative and get errands
taken care
> of without having to put him into that situation. As with all other
phases,
> this one passed and now he loves to go shopping with me and hold my
hand.
>
> There are always options, other than violence (and yes, I define
hitting a
> kid as violence. It certainly would be if my husband hit me
to "teach me a
> lesson").
>
>
> Blue Skies!
> -Robin-
> Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) who has a best friend named "Eiznekcam"
> and Asa (10/5/99) the girl who climbs everything!
> http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

[email protected]

I would never smack my child for being in danger, (running in front
of a car). I did, at the begining occasional smack for being
naughty. A very light smack on the butt. I soon learned that this
was not the thing to do. I hate physical violence of any kind. So I
learned to communicate with my children about what was and was not
accepted. It worked most of the times. (Would smacking work ALL of
the time?)
*Spare the rod* - some words writen long ago had slightly diferent
meanings to what they have now. I cant help but wonder if this is
one of those words. The GOD I know is a loving forgiving GOD.

Several yrs ago a 'gay child' was a happy carefree child - (read Enid
Blytons stories!) Today it has a totally different meaning.

Marianne - who thinks all you people in USA must have gone to the
beach for the day as there are very posts this morning (New zealand
time)

Lynda

This discussion is very similar to ps and the stereotyping of various
religions, ethnic groups and genders. One size doesn't fit all. Every
child is an individual and there are children that only being "shocked" gets
through to. Not the norm/average, but they do occur. I'm thinking everyone
should bear that in mind.

Lynda

----- Original Message -----
From: "DiamondAir" <diamondair@...>
>
> There are always options, other than violence (and yes, I define hitting a
> kid as violence. It certainly would be if my husband hit me to "teach me a
> lesson").
>
>
> Blue Skies!
> -Robin-

Eileen M.

Thank you, Lynda.

It's easy to judge other people when you don't have to
live with the consequences of their following the
dictates of your *personal* opinions, and when you
don't know the individual peculiarities of their
situation.

Sweeping generalities, like "there is NEVER any excuse
for hitting a child", don't take into account the fact
that children are not little generalities. They are
highly individual and unique, and so are their needs.
You cannot look at a parent and child on the street
and in five seconds (or minutes) pass a reasonable
judgment on how that child should be raised or
educated or disciplined or loved. The same type of
sweeping generality, for instance, would be that all
children benefit from breast feeding in their infancy,
or that all children should be held by their parents
as much as possible, or that all children should be
raised by both a mother and a father. But there are
children who for one reason or another would be
harmed, even seriously endangered, were they and their
parents held to those standards.

Our experience with hitting, for instance, follows.
Delete here if you aren't interested... it's a tad
long, because our situation is complex. Which is the
point.

My son has Aspergers Syndrome and ADHD, and could run
like the wind at 10 months old. I am physically
challenged, which he took advantage of during
'transitions', such as when I took him out of his
carseat or walked out a door (and believe me, there
wasn't a stroller or harness that has been designed
that could hold him for more than two seconds if he
wanted to escape... we tried *dozens*). The first
thing he'd do is squirm away and run directly in front
of any moving vehicle available.

Some people, perhaps, could stay isolated inside for
two or three years in order to avoid ever risking that
situation, but I didn't have that option. I had to go
to the bank, grocery store, doctors' offices, park,
etc, and those places are in parking lots or on
streets... usually busy ones.

Our son wasn't interested in cars or in streets; he
wasn't running to them out of curiosity or impulsive
experimental zeal. He never ran out into a quiet
street... that wasn't fun. It wasn't the street he
was interested in. It was my reaction to his danger
that he was going for. He didn't understand the
feeling behind my terrorized expression; he just
thought that the faces and voice I used were *funny*,
and enjoyed being chased and swooped up; he'd figured
out that running in front of moving vehicles would
guarantee those reactions.

The problem being that a 10 month old child the size
of a doll(and a small one, at that... he had growth
retardation) is not a size that is easily seen by a
driver going through a parking lot.

And a 10 month old, particularly one with ADHD *and*
on the autistic spectrum, is not going to understand a
lesson, or fifty, in cause and effect... especially an
abstract one. He could not cognitively connect a
squished traffic cone or doll to a squished him.
{There is a reason his first word was "Hot!"} I tried
all sorts of gentle options before resorting to that
swat on the bottom. He found being 'gently led' to be
*torture*; he felt caged and hated being held or
touched for any length of time, and he didn't connect
that torture to the escape behavior, so it wasn't
effective in any case.

One swat on the diapered bottom was less traumatic,
for him, than many of the 'gentler' options I've seen
suggested on this list (most of which we tried before
that in any case... *I* didn't want to hit my child,
and only did so when nothing else worked); I
understand my kid better than anyone else in the
world, and I am absolutely sure of that. In the end
it came to this... give him one immediate negative
consequence that he would connect to the deed, or end
up with a dead child.
If the choice is (by the definition of a lot of posts
onlist) a mildly traumatized child or a severely
injured or dead one, I am okay with the one that cried
for five seconds and then didn't run out in front of
cars any more.

And my autistic spectrum child is more affectionate,
sunny, connected, open and trusting of me than most of
his 'normal' companions are with their parents... the
only anxiety and 'damaged' behavior he exhibits takes
place during the school year and is clearly connected
with that. *Schooling* him is the only abuse I am
guilty of inflicting on him, and that I did
unknowingly... and am taking the steps I can to
rectify the situation asap!

Eileen

--- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> This discussion is very similar to ps and the
> stereotyping of various
> religions, ethnic groups and genders. One size
> doesn't fit all. Every
> child is an individual and there are children that
> only being "shocked" gets
> through to. Not the norm/average, but they do
> occur. I'm thinking everyone
> should bear that in mind.
>
> Lynda
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DiamondAir" <diamondair@...>
> >
> > There are always options, other than violence (and
> yes, I define hitting a
> > kid as violence. It certainly would be if my
> husband hit me to "teach me a
> > lesson").
> >
> >
> > Blue Skies!
> > -Robin-
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Eileen M.

Thank you, Lynda.

It's easy to judge other people when you don't have to
live with the consequences of their following the
dictates of your *personal* opinions, and when you
don't know the individual peculiarities of their
situation.

Sweeping generalities, like "there is NEVER any excuse
for hitting a child", don't take into account the fact
that children are not little generalities. They are
highly individual and unique, and so are their needs.
You cannot look at a parent and child on the street
and in five seconds (or minutes) pass a reasonable
judgment on how that child should be raised or
educated or disciplined or loved. The same type of
sweeping generality, for instance, would be that all
children benefit from breast feeding in their infancy,
or that all children should be held by their parents
as much as possible, or that all children should be
raised by both a mother and a father. But there are
children who for one reason or another would be
harmed, even seriously endangered, were they and their
parents held to those standards.

Our experience with hitting, for instance, follows.
Delete here if you aren't interested... it's a tad
long, because our situation is complex. Which is the
point.

My son has Aspergers Syndrome and ADHD, and could run
like the wind at 10 months old. I am physically
challenged, which he took advantage of during
'transitions', such as when I took him out of his
carseat or walked out a door (and believe me, there
wasn't a stroller or harness that has been designed
that could hold him for more than two seconds if he
wanted to escape... we tried *dozens*). The first
thing he'd do is squirm away and run directly in front
of any moving vehicle available.

Some people, perhaps, could stay isolated inside for
two or three years in order to avoid ever risking that
situation, but I didn't have that option. I had to go
to the bank, grocery store, doctors' offices, park,
etc, and those places are in parking lots or on
streets... usually busy ones.

Our son wasn't interested in cars or in streets; he
wasn't running to them out of curiosity or impulsive
experimental zeal. He never ran out into a quiet
street... that wasn't fun. It wasn't the street he
was interested in. It was my reaction to his danger
that he was going for. He didn't understand the
feeling behind my terrorized expression; he just
thought that the faces and voice I used were *funny*,
and enjoyed being chased and swooped up; he'd figured
out that running in front of moving vehicles would
guarantee those reactions.

The problem being that a 10 month old child the size
of a doll(and a small one, at that... he had growth
retardation) is not a size that is easily seen by a
driver going through a parking lot.

And a 10 month old, particularly one with ADHD *and*
on the autistic spectrum, is not going to understand a
lesson, or fifty, in cause and effect... especially an
abstract one. He could not cognitively connect a
squished traffic cone or doll to a squished him.
{There is a reason his first word was "Hot!"} I tried
all sorts of gentle options before resorting to that
swat on the bottom. He found being 'gently led' to be
*torture*; he felt caged and hated being held or
touched for any length of time, and he didn't connect
that torture to the escape behavior, so it wasn't
effective in any case.

One swat on the diapered bottom was less traumatic,
for him, than many of the 'gentler' options I've seen
suggested on this list (most of which we tried before
that in any case... *I* didn't want to hit my child,
and only did so when nothing else worked); I
understand my kid better than anyone else in the
world, and I am absolutely sure of that. In the end
it came to this... give him one immediate negative
consequence that he would connect to the deed, or end
up with a dead child.
If the choice is (by the definition of a lot of posts
onlist) a mildly traumatized child or a severely
injured or dead one, I am okay with the one that cried
for five seconds and then didn't run out in front of
cars any more.

And my autistic spectrum child is more affectionate,
sunny, connected, open and trusting of me than most of
his 'normal' companions are with their parents... the
only anxiety and 'damaged' behavior he exhibits takes
place during the school year and is clearly connected
with that. *Schooling* him is the only abuse I am
guilty of inflicting on him, and that I did
unknowingly... and am taking the steps I can to
rectify the situation asap!

Eileen

--- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> This discussion is very similar to ps and the
> stereotyping of various
> religions, ethnic groups and genders. One size
> doesn't fit all. Every
> child is an individual and there are children that
> only being "shocked" gets
> through to. Not the norm/average, but they do
> occur. I'm thinking everyone
> should bear that in mind.
>
> Lynda
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DiamondAir" <diamondair@...>
> >
> > There are always options, other than violence (and
> yes, I define hitting a
> > kid as violence. It certainly would be if my
> husband hit me to "teach me a
> > lesson").
> >
> >
> > Blue Skies!
> > -Robin-
>
>
>



__________________________________________________
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Eileen M.

--- tonitoni@... wrote:
> I would never smack my child for being in danger,
> (running in front
> of a car).

I didn't smack my child for being in danger. That
would be ineffective, and stupid as well IMO. It is
also totally ineffective to sit down and try to reason
with a ten month old child, expecting that he will
understand and agree with you that he should give up a
fun activity because of your abstract reasoning. I
swatted his bottom once to make him see that there was
an an immediate and unpleasant consequence to the
repeated choice he was making that put his life at
terrible risk. He had, until then, refused to see
that I was *serious*... the swat let him know that I
was *very* serious.

It isn't that the swat hurt... he was well diapered,
and he had reacted to firmer and more numerous swats
in the same area when we played 'baby drums' with
roars of laughter. It was the shock of the timing and
the tone of my voice that made him sit for a moment
and roar with indignation... because I had never
touched him in anything but a playful or cuddly manner
before, and it was a very unpleasant surprise. I
didn't enjoy it, and neither did he, but it saved us
both from much worse possibilities in the future.

Every child is different, of course, and other mothers
may find other tactics more effective. I would
encourage them to try less unpleasant methods of
instruction first, as I did.

Eileen



__________________________________________________
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Eileen M.

--- Valerie <valfitz@...> wrote:
>
when
> I told her about
> cars or any other danger, she listened and respected
> what I was
> saying. We stood on the sidewalk, me kneeling beside
> her. I told
> her, "Watch how fast the cars go." I then pointed
> out a small branch
> on the road and told her to watch and see if the car
> hit it, and see
> what happens to the branch if it gets hit. We
> watched and it happened
> and her eyes got big and she said, "I'm staying on
> the sidewalk and
> holding your hand Mommy."

Do you think she would have done the same at ten
months of age? That's how old my son was, and I
challenge anyone to have kept him there long enough to
see the branch getting hit, much less to get him to
understand the connection between it and him at that
age.

You are speaking of *your* child. She was older. She
was not (as far as I can tell from your description
and her posts) neurologically challenged. My child at
eleven years old *still* has trouble making
cause-and-effect connections, even though he has a
high IQ... at ten months old it was not within his
cognitive capabilities. He was still at the stage
where he'd walk off a table ledge or launch himself
from the top of the stairs if the opportunity
presented itself because he didn't realize that
landing would *hurt*.
He wouldn't look at anyone's face, much less look
somewhere you pointed. What he *could* do, at ten
months, is climb like a monkey and run like a
squirrel.

I am not saying that spanking or swatting is
desirable, I am not saying that it is the best option,
I am not saying that everyone should do it or that
most people should do it, or that *anyone* should
choose that as an easy method of childrearing. I am
saying that sometimes it is the lesser of two or more
evils, and sometimes the only effective option
*certain parents* of *certain children* have available
at *certain times*. And that people should not
generalize from their own experience... your
experience with your child just will never apply to my
child in all areas, because she is a completely
different person than mine is, her personality and
learning style (and learning curve) is completely
different. And I cannot use my experience with my
child to judge what another parent should do with
theirs.

Not that I *don't* judge, mind you. I'm not perfect,
so I do. But I'm wrong when I do that. Probably. ;)

__________________________________________________
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[email protected]

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Eileen M." <ravensegg@y...> wrote:
>
> --- tonitoni@z... wrote:
> > I would never smack my child for being in danger,
> > (running in front
> > of a car).
>
Eileen wrote
> I didn't smack my child for being in danger.

Eileen
What I wrote had nothing to do with your post. I am sorry if it
sounded that way. I was just making a statement.
As I said I have smacked my children.
I also bit my son once - I posted this on another board just last
week. I am sure you are all sat there going "What!!"
My 2 yr old son bit his baby brother on the arm. I immediatly bit my
sons arm. I wanted him to know how this hurt his baby brother. he
never bite again. Low and behold the baby was 2 yrs old when he did
the same to the new baby. I bit him on his arm too - and he never
bit again....... I, like you, did what I thought would hit home

Marianne

Eileen M.

Ah!

I'm not going "What?!" at all; I'm not proud of it,
but I did the biting thing with my son, too. He bit
me several times a day for months, and would actually
draw blood... he bit *hard*, and then he'd laugh
hysterically if I reacted at all. He was trying to
get a reaction, so if I *didn't* react, he bit
*harder*. We tried tobasco sauce and sour apple and
everything, it didn't work... I even tried keeping the
bitten area forced into his jaws, trying to make it
uncomfortable. Nope, no good. He started biting his
grandmother and smaller cousins. Hard. His
outrageously doting grandmother started fearing that
there was something seriously wrong with him... he
really got an extremely evil grin on his face.

I finally, in desperation and in spite of my own
beliefs about it, bit him back. He didn't seem upset
in the least, or even surprised, but he did stop
biting.

Unfortunately, it took a while before I could get him
to stop coming up to me and trying to force his finger
between *my* teeth! Maybe that's what he was wanting
all along, was for *me* to bite *him*?

Children are a mystery...

Eileen

--- tonitoni@... wrote:
I am sure you are all sat there going "What!!"
> My 2 yr old son bit his baby brother on the arm. I
> immediatly bit my
> sons arm. I wanted him to know how this hurt his
> baby brother. he
> never bite again. Low and behold the baby was 2 yrs
> old when he did
> the same to the new baby. I bit him on his arm too
> - and he never
> bit again....... I, like you, did what I thought
> would hit home
>
> Marianne


__________________________________________________
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DiamondAir

> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> This discussion is very similar to ps and the stereotyping of various
> religions, ethnic groups and genders. One size doesn't fit all.
>Every
> child is an individual and there are children that only being "shocked"
gets
> through to. Not the norm/average, but they do occur. I'm thinking
everyone
> should bear that in mind.


I think I disagree, and still do respectfully, even after reading Eileen's
posts on this subject. We all draw lines in the sand - I'm sure if I said it
was necessary for me to pour boiling water on my child's hand to teach him
about "hot" that no-one here would be saying "Well, each child is an
individual, and that might be necessary to get through to some". There would
be a line being crossed there that was absolutely unacceptable and I doubt
anyone would apologize for drawing that particular line. The question is,
where is each person's line in the sand drawn? If you draw your line at "no
violence, never hitting a child" then you will be as creative as you need to
be to avoid doing that. So at this point it becomes a matter of opinion and
of where each person draws their line, but I don't think it's possible to
argue that there aren't lines to be drawn at all. It is possible to
understand that some folks feel that a small amount of violence is not
harmful to their kids. It is also possible to understand that others feel
quite strongly that any amount of violence is too much for any child.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) who has a best friend named "Eiznekcam"
and Asa (10/5/99) the girl who climbs everything!
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

[email protected]

I finally, in desperation and in spite of my own
> beliefs about it, bit him back. He didn't seem upset
> in the least, or even surprised, but he did stop
> biting.
>

Eileen
Thankgoodness I wasn't the only to resort to these methods.
I have to admit to doing the same thing when my kids started nipping
as well.

Marianne

Valerie

> Eileen said:

> It's easy to judge other people when you don't have to
> live with the consequences of their following the
> dictates of your *personal* opinions, and when you
> don't know the individual peculiarities of their
> situation.


I had a feeling there was something like this going on with you
Eileen. I've only 'known' you a week but have connected with things
you said, so to believe that you were 'abusing' your child was more
than I could take in. I knew if I kept quiet (not easy for me) that
your reply would be here before too much time passed.

One thing I have 'tried' to work on is extremes. I try to
avoid 'never' and 'always.' Not saying I manage it every time, but I
do try.

Thanks for explaining it all to us.

love, Valerie

Valerie

> Do you think she would have done the same at ten
> months of age? That's how old my son was, and I
> challenge anyone to have kept him there long enough to
> see the branch getting hit, much less to get him to
> understand the connection between it and him at that
> age.
>
> You are speaking of *your* child. She was older. She
> was not (as far as I can tell from your description
> and her posts) neurologically challenged.

She could barely walk at ten months old, so no, she definitely
wouldn't have done that.... I was just sharing how I told her about
the dangers of the street. I'm 'behind' you all the way Eileen. :-)

love, Valerie

Eileen M.

Okay, this is my last say on the matter, because after
this post I am probably going to leave the list.
Stress effects my condition (see parallel post "My
Moccasins"), and getting comments from strangers who
tell me that as a non-violent alternative to a mild
swat on a protected bottom I should throw cold water
in the face of a ten month old autistic child is
stressing me out. It *hurts* to bite my tongue that
hard.

What is difficult for me to understand is that so many
people on this *particular* list feel perfectly
comfortable in telling others where the line should be
drawn, and that any other than *their* line is wrong,
abusive, that it will permanently damage our
children... not that it could possibly do so, or
potentially do so, but that it *will*. Robin, at
least, is TRYING to be fair and impartial. Sort of.

"It
> is possible to
> understand that some folks feel that a small amount
> of violence is not
> harmful to their kids. It is also possible to
> understand that others feel
> quite strongly that any amount of violence is too
> much for any child."

My, my... What an unusual, and apparantly
irresistable, position for homeschoolers to be in.
You have managed to become a Moral Majority! The
decision to "draw your line at 'no violence, never
hitting a child'" is held up as the gold standard
which should not be set aside for any reason, even if
the 'creative' lengths to which one must go in order
to avoid doing so are effectively more abusive and
damaging to the psyche of a particular child than the
hitting itself. The theory, in effect, becomes more
important than the child.

And who can blame you for taking such a seemingly
reasonable position? To do otherwise, after all,
would be to take the icky position that it is okay to
do violence to your child. THAT wouldn't be... well,
it wouldn't be nice. It wouldn't be morally
unassailable. It wouldn't be Superior. It would
leave room for self-doubt and discomfort and even
pain.

By your framing of the argument, you would have me
taking the position that a small amount of violence is
not harmful to my, or any, child. That is not a
position that I could, or would ever wish to, defend.
My position, my experience, my observation, is that a
small amount of violence is unavoidable in many...
probably most... children's lives, and that most
parents have to make a choice between one kind and
another on occasion. We are forced by circumstances
beyond our control to estimate the potential level of
violence and/or damage inherent in each option and
choose the one that, to the best they can measure,
will do the least damage or can most reasonably be
mitigated.

Most of you have done so already. You have assessed
the risks in either immunizing or not immunizing your
children; if your risk pays off, you go on your way
happy and carefree... but if you assessed incorrectly,
you have done irreparable harm to your children and
possibly to your community.

If you chose to immunize your child, that needle was
far more violent than my swat of my son's bottom...
few of us whose child has been stuck with a big ol'
needle can claim that we are ignorant of the vast
sense of betrayal and personal offense our children
feel at that moment. It is projected directly at you,
in great big (loud!) Offront Waves. You chose to do
violence to your child because your assessment of the
situation led you to believe that it was a *smaller*
and mitigatable damage compared to the possible
alternative. But what if your child later is
diagnosed with a neurological disorder... will you
ever be sure that that small violence didn't have far
reaching consequences?

Ah, perhaps you chose not to immunize! You were able
to virtuously avoid that small violence *and* avoid
the whiff of insidious long-term damage that seems to
be floating into connection with the immunizations.
THAT is definitely the Right choice.

But what if they get the disease because they were
left unprotected? What if they are rendered impotent
and are never able to have children of their own?
What if they are left paralyzed or deaf or blind?
What if they are left unable to speak or recognize us
or feed themselves, what if they *die*? I personally
have seen the last two happen, right here in the
Metropolitan area in which I live. What if our
beloved children, and similarly unimmunized
compatriots, are responsible for the spreading of a
devastating epidemic? What violence have you done
them and your neighbors, in the name of avoiding the
smaller violence?

Can *any* of you guarantee that you haven't done some
unknown violence or irreparable damage to your child's
future by any action or decision you have made? Would
you want a Majority to tell you that you have
ignorantly and callously played Russian Roulette with
your child's life? Would you feel comfortable in
saying that very thing to other people on this list
about the immunization, educational, religious,
sexual, tv/computer, Ritalin issues, among others?

Probably not. You are too vulnerable that way. BUT
you *are* comfortable in applying an inflexible,
simplistic and virtuous-sounding generality in judging
a small minority who are un-PC or independent enough
to see things differently than the Majority. You are
comfortable with applying that one-size-fits-all
measuring stick for 'violence' to all children and
families, no matter how different *their* experience
might be from your own.

Must be comfy.


--- DiamondAir <diamondair@...> wrote:
If
> you draw your line at "no
> violence, never hitting a child" then you will be as
> creative as you need to
> be to avoid doing that. So at this point it becomes
> a matter of opinion and
> of where each person draws their line, but I don't
> think it's possible to
> argue that there aren't lines to be drawn at all. It
> is possible to
> understand that some folks feel that a small amount
> of violence is not
> harmful to their kids. It is also possible to
> understand that others feel
> quite strongly that any amount of violence is too
> much for any child.
>
> Blue Skies!
> -Robin-



__________________________________________________
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[email protected]

In a message dated 5/7/01 1:52:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ravensegg@... writes:

<< My position, my experience, my observation, is that a
small amount of violence is unavoidable in many...
probably most... children's lives, and that most
parents have to make a choice between one kind and
another on occasion. >>

Eileen, this will probably be my last post on this issue as well because
I'm leaving tomorrow for two weeks to see my sister and her twin babies in
Minnesota. I apologize again if there is anything I have said that has
offended you; that was not my intention. I don't believe (not positive about
this) that you were even the one who brought up the spanking issue. I think
a couple of people felt that it was a parent's Biblical obligation to
physically punish their children and quoted certain scriptures to support
this view. I believe that most people initially responded to that.
I have known a lot of people over the years, including many who spanked
their kids, and it has not been my experience that those spankings were
unavoidable. I don't think those parents are horrible people; some of them
have been my relatives and friends. But I believe that in the cases I
observed, there were better ways. And I believe there are many ways I have
been with my kids in the past that could have been so much better.
What you have experienced is much different and much harder than most of
us will ever have to deal with, as you well know. You sound like an
incredibly strong, intelligent, brave person and I appreciate reading all
that you have shared. I do hope that you don't quit the list. That is the
problem when things like this come up. Whatever you decide, I wish you and
your son the best.

Lucy

Simpson

Wow Eileen!! I have been sitting back reading all of these posts thinking how judgmental and extreeme people can be and wondering how long the posting over spanking wich is a very personal choice would last , as I did with the breast feeding and abortion threads just reading and skimming deleting and not responding, figuring my opinion really didn't matter much so why bother speaking,
however you have said everything I have been thinking and I thank you for it, I did read your last post and am very sorry you have had to endure such tough times.
I am a pro life person but I wouldn't take someone down for choosing otherwise or engage in a lenthy conversation over it as I would know that it is everyones right to choose what they want to beleive
I also breast feed, but wouldn't ever tell someone else they are bad for not breastfeeding their child because each one of my children got varied amounts of breastfeeding, while I am enjoying it now, I struggled with it with my older children, but I don't feel that makes me less of a mother, I have also spanked my children, I get no pleasure from it and don't feel the need now , but I might again some day each day brings something different into my life and I am with you that it is wrong to tell other people how to live their life
I also have a daughter who is ADD while I do not promote schools drugging children for compliance, I also do not criticize those who have kids on meds because my life would be a living hell without meds for my daughter!
so please take compfort in knowing you are not alone in feeling that people are being judgmental and harsh when a touchy subject comes up!
Tanya

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----- Original Message -----
From: Eileen M.
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Disciplining toddlers, was Re: "Expert" Advice


Okay, this is my last say on the matter, because after
this post I am probably going to leave the list.
Stress effects my condition (see parallel post "My
Moccasins"), and getting comments from strangers who
tell me that as a non-violent alternative to a mild
swat on a protected bottom I should throw cold water
in the face of a ten month old autistic child is
stressing me out. It *hurts* to bite my tongue that
hard.

What is difficult for me to understand is that so many
people on this *particular* list feel perfectly
comfortable in telling others where the line should be
drawn, and that any other than *their* line is wrong,
abusive, that it will permanently damage our
children... not that it could possibly do so, or
potentially do so, but that it *will*. Robin, at
least, is TRYING to be fair and impartial. Sort of.

"It
> is possible to
> understand that some folks feel that a small amount
> of violence is not
> harmful to their kids. It is also possible to
> understand that others feel
> quite strongly that any amount of violence is too
> much for any child."

My, my... What an unusual, and apparantly
irresistable, position for homeschoolers to be in.
You have managed to become a Moral Majority! The
decision to "draw your line at 'no violence, never
hitting a child'" is held up as the gold standard
which should not be set aside for any reason, even if
the 'creative' lengths to which one must go in order
to avoid doing so are effectively more abusive and
damaging to the psyche of a particular child than the
hitting itself. The theory, in effect, becomes more
important than the child.

And who can blame you for taking such a seemingly
reasonable position? To do otherwise, after all,
would be to take the icky position that it is okay to
do violence to your child. THAT wouldn't be... well,
it wouldn't be nice. It wouldn't be morally
unassailable. It wouldn't be Superior. It would
leave room for self-doubt and discomfort and even
pain.

By your framing of the argument, you would have me
taking the position that a small amount of violence is
not harmful to my, or any, child. That is not a
position that I could, or would ever wish to, defend.
My position, my experience, my observation, is that a
small amount of violence is unavoidable in many...
probably most... children's lives, and that most
parents have to make a choice between one kind and
another on occasion. We are forced by circumstances
beyond our control to estimate the potential level of
violence and/or damage inherent in each option and
choose the one that, to the best they can measure,
will do the least damage or can most reasonably be
mitigated.

Most of you have done so already. You have assessed
the risks in either immunizing or not immunizing your
children; if your risk pays off, you go on your way
happy and carefree... but if you assessed incorrectly,
you have done irreparable harm to your children and
possibly to your community.

If you chose to immunize your child, that needle was
far more violent than my swat of my son's bottom...
few of us whose child has been stuck with a big ol'
needle can claim that we are ignorant of the vast
sense of betrayal and personal offense our children
feel at that moment. It is projected directly at you,
in great big (loud!) Offront Waves. You chose to do
violence to your child because your assessment of the
situation led you to believe that it was a *smaller*
and mitigatable damage compared to the possible
alternative. But what if your child later is
diagnosed with a neurological disorder... will you
ever be sure that that small violence didn't have far
reaching consequences?

Ah, perhaps you chose not to immunize! You were able
to virtuously avoid that small violence *and* avoid
the whiff of insidious long-term damage that seems to
be floating into connection with the immunizations.
THAT is definitely the Right choice.

But what if they get the disease because they were
left unprotected? What if they are rendered impotent
and are never able to have children of their own?
What if they are left paralyzed or deaf or blind?
What if they are left unable to speak or recognize us
or feed themselves, what if they *die*? I personally
have seen the last two happen, right here in the
Metropolitan area in which I live. What if our
beloved children, and similarly unimmunized
compatriots, are responsible for the spreading of a
devastating epidemic? What violence have you done
them and your neighbors, in the name of avoiding the
smaller violence?

Can *any* of you guarantee that you haven't done some
unknown violence or irreparable damage to your child's
future by any action or decision you have made? Would
you want a Majority to tell you that you have
ignorantly and callously played Russian Roulette with
your child's life? Would you feel comfortable in
saying that very thing to other people on this list
about the immunization, educational, religious,
sexual, tv/computer, Ritalin issues, among others?

Probably not. You are too vulnerable that way. BUT
you *are* comfortable in applying an inflexible,
simplistic and virtuous-sounding generality in judging
a small minority who are un-PC or independent enough
to see things differently than the Majority. You are
comfortable with applying that one-size-fits-all
measuring stick for 'violence' to all children and
families, no matter how different *their* experience
might be from your own.

Must be comfy.


--- DiamondAir <diamondair@...> wrote:
If
> you draw your line at "no
> violence, never hitting a child" then you will be as
> creative as you need to
> be to avoid doing that. So at this point it becomes
> a matter of opinion and
> of where each person draws their line, but I don't
> think it's possible to
> argue that there aren't lines to be drawn at all. It
> is possible to
> understand that some folks feel that a small amount
> of violence is not
> harmful to their kids. It is also possible to
> understand that others feel
> quite strongly that any amount of violence is too
> much for any child.
>
> Blue Skies!
> -Robin-



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

I usually stay out of these discussions but it never ceases to amaze me that
unschoolers can be so rigid! Folks who get up in arms over schools pigeon
holing students and the news media and government/politicians stereotyping
homeschooling should perhaps be a little more careful since quite a few seem
to be hypocrits and proponents of "one-size-fits-all" when it comes to child
rearing!

For starters, a swat on the diapered fanny of a child only falls under one
definition of the word violent and it isn't the definition that most folks
are referring to, so maybe some old-fashioned ps homework is in order!

The definition that applies is #4: "caused by or showing strong feeling"
And that only applies in the example given because any mother would have
strong feelings caused by fear that their child would possibly be injured or
killed.

Now, for all those that take the hand of their child and stop them from
doing those actions that may cause them harm AND are throwing around words
such as violent and violence to describe swatting/spanking, etc, again, I
would suggest that you put your computers Thesaurus to work! Under the word
"violence: syn compulsion, *coercion*, duress, *constraint*, *restraint."

But then, I'm betting that most folks don't even really know what the
definition of "violence" really is, it has become such a catch phrase for
everything and anything that folks don't like. I mean, one can "shop
around" for a definition that will fill the bill if one wants to really play
word games but the most commonly shown definition is "exertion of physical
force(s) so as to INJURE"

I can just as easily find as many ways to define that sicky sweet voice some
folks use to "talk" to their children when they are young and they "explain"
things to them as abuse, brainwashing, coercion, duress . . . Hey, whadda
ya know, little bit of hypocrisy going on here since those are all synonyms
for *violence.*

And, just a note. Kids hate being talked to that way!

So here is the line I am drawing ____________________ in the sand. On one
side are the folks that understand that everyone is an individual, that
every child is an individual, that not any single method works for all
children, or in all situtations AND have the decency to allow those in a
position of first hand knowledge to know what is best for their child. On
that side of the line are folks that take off those glasses that tint
everything in absolutes and folks who realise that to get from point A to
point B is not always a straight line. That's the side of the line I'm
staying on!

I'm not going to the side of the line that refuses to acknowledge that one
size does not fit all; that justice is portrayed with a blindfold for a
reason; that no one appointed them judge and jury; that contrary to their
belief there isn't a one right way to raise a child; that they and their
methods are not perfect and that a swat does not an Ezzo make.

Lynda, who finds all backseat drivers to be irritating <g>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eileen M." <ravensegg@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Disciplining toddlers, was Re:
"Expert" Advice


> Okay, this is my last say on the matter, because after
> this post I am probably going to leave the list.
> Stress effects my condition (see parallel post "My
> Moccasins"), and getting comments from strangers who
> tell me that as a non-violent alternative to a mild
> swat on a protected bottom I should throw cold water
> in the face of a ten month old autistic child is
> stressing me out. It *hurts* to bite my tongue that
> hard.
>
> What is difficult for me to understand is that so many
> people on this *particular* list feel perfectly
> comfortable in telling others where the line should be
> drawn, and that any other than *their* line is wrong,
> abusive, that it will permanently damage our
> children... not that it could possibly do so, or
> potentially do so, but that it *will*. Robin, at
> least, is TRYING to be fair and impartial. Sort of.
>
> "It
> > is possible to
> > understand that some folks feel that a small amount
> > of violence is not
> > harmful to their kids. It is also possible to
> > understand that others feel
> > quite strongly that any amount of violence is too
> > much for any child."
>
> My, my... What an unusual, and apparantly
> irresistable, position for homeschoolers to be in.
> You have managed to become a Moral Majority! The
> decision to "draw your line at 'no violence, never
> hitting a child'" is held up as the gold standard
> which should not be set aside for any reason, even if
> the 'creative' lengths to which one must go in order
> to avoid doing so are effectively more abusive and
> damaging to the psyche of a particular child than the
> hitting itself. The theory, in effect, becomes more
> important than the child.
>
> And who can blame you for taking such a seemingly
> reasonable position? To do otherwise, after all,
> would be to take the icky position that it is okay to
> do violence to your child. THAT wouldn't be... well,
> it wouldn't be nice. It wouldn't be morally
> unassailable. It wouldn't be Superior. It would
> leave room for self-doubt and discomfort and even
> pain.
>
> By your framing of the argument, you would have me
> taking the position that a small amount of violence is
> not harmful to my, or any, child. That is not a
> position that I could, or would ever wish to, defend.
> My position, my experience, my observation, is that a
> small amount of violence is unavoidable in many...
> probably most... children's lives, and that most
> parents have to make a choice between one kind and
> another on occasion. We are forced by circumstances
> beyond our control to estimate the potential level of
> violence and/or damage inherent in each option and
> choose the one that, to the best they can measure,
> will do the least damage or can most reasonably be
> mitigated.
>
> Most of you have done so already. You have assessed
> the risks in either immunizing or not immunizing your
> children; if your risk pays off, you go on your way
> happy and carefree... but if you assessed incorrectly,
> you have done irreparable harm to your children and
> possibly to your community.
>
> If you chose to immunize your child, that needle was
> far more violent than my swat of my son's bottom...
> few of us whose child has been stuck with a big ol'
> needle can claim that we are ignorant of the vast
> sense of betrayal and personal offense our children
> feel at that moment. It is projected directly at you,
> in great big (loud!) Offront Waves. You chose to do
> violence to your child because your assessment of the
> situation led you to believe that it was a *smaller*
> and mitigatable damage compared to the possible
> alternative. But what if your child later is
> diagnosed with a neurological disorder... will you
> ever be sure that that small violence didn't have far
> reaching consequences?
>
> Ah, perhaps you chose not to immunize! You were able
> to virtuously avoid that small violence *and* avoid
> the whiff of insidious long-term damage that seems to
> be floating into connection with the immunizations.
> THAT is definitely the Right choice.
>
> But what if they get the disease because they were
> left unprotected? What if they are rendered impotent
> and are never able to have children of their own?
> What if they are left paralyzed or deaf or blind?
> What if they are left unable to speak or recognize us
> or feed themselves, what if they *die*? I personally
> have seen the last two happen, right here in the
> Metropolitan area in which I live. What if our
> beloved children, and similarly unimmunized
> compatriots, are responsible for the spreading of a
> devastating epidemic? What violence have you done
> them and your neighbors, in the name of avoiding the
> smaller violence?
>
> Can *any* of you guarantee that you haven't done some
> unknown violence or irreparable damage to your child's
> future by any action or decision you have made? Would
> you want a Majority to tell you that you have
> ignorantly and callously played Russian Roulette with
> your child's life? Would you feel comfortable in
> saying that very thing to other people on this list
> about the immunization, educational, religious,
> sexual, tv/computer, Ritalin issues, among others?
>
> Probably not. You are too vulnerable that way. BUT
> you *are* comfortable in applying an inflexible,
> simplistic and virtuous-sounding generality in judging
> a small minority who are un-PC or independent enough
> to see things differently than the Majority. You are
> comfortable with applying that one-size-fits-all
> measuring stick for 'violence' to all children and
> families, no matter how different *their* experience
> might be from your own.
>
> Must be comfy.
>
>
> --- DiamondAir <diamondair@...> wrote:
> If
> > you draw your line at "no
> > violence, never hitting a child" then you will be as
> > creative as you need to
> > be to avoid doing that. So at this point it becomes
> > a matter of opinion and
> > of where each person draws their line, but I don't
> > think it's possible to
> > argue that there aren't lines to be drawn at all. It
> > is possible to
> > understand that some folks feel that a small amount
> > of violence is not
> > harmful to their kids. It is also possible to
> > understand that others feel
> > quite strongly that any amount of violence is too
> > much for any child.
> >
> > Blue Skies!
> > -Robin-
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Eileen M.

--- Simpson <michigan@...> wrote:
just reading and skimming deleting and not
> responding, figuring my opinion really didn't matter
> much so why bother speaking,

My goodness! *I* certainly think your opinion
matters! I dunno. I think it's good for people, me
included, to hear dissenting views. I don't feel like
there are many (any?) subjects on which I am so
knowledgeable that I cannot hear anything that might
give me new insight or understanding.

I think I mentioned on another post? Anyway, I think
abortion is a good example... people tend to be pretty
polarized on that issue, and I think that's
understandable. Murder and the right to control over
what happens to your own body are pretty important
issues, and people feel strongly about them. You and
I stand on opposing sides of that line, and were we to
discuss the issue, we would disagree with each other
to that degree, and it is unlikely that either one of
us would change our minds about which side of the line
we stand on... but we *might* reach a better
understanding of how people come to stand over there
on the other side, about how sincere and loving and
well intentioned they are. And *that* is an important
thing to learn and understand. We will never come to
that understanding if we take a stance that the other
*by the nature of their position* is ignorant,
uncaring, unethical, or (worst of all) inhuman. We
reduce ourselves when we reduce others...

I did read your
> last post and am very sorry you have had to endure
> such tough times.

I don't know about that. Being sorry, I mean. I
*very* much appreciate the empathy you show in your
response... but I don't know that I should be sorry
that I've had those times (even as I sometimes resent
tough times as they are happening, and fear ones to
come). I can't say 'Gee, I'd like to do *that*
again', or 'Boy, this pain is *fun*!' But all the
painful experiences in my life are a part of who I
am... they taught me, changed me, brought amazing
people and insights into my life that I otherwise
might have missed.

> I also have a daughter who is ADD while I do not
> promote schools drugging children for compliance, I
> also do not criticize those who have kids on meds
> because my life would be a living hell without meds
> for my daughter!

I relate to that! I have taken the choice to not
medicate, but respect my SIL's decision to medicate
her son. I have different concerns than she does, my
son is different than hers is, our living and family
situations are not identical, and our personalities
are *certainly* different. How can I feel qualified
to tell her what she should do? My son's thinking
processes are effected, his focus is effected, but he
isn't oppositional or overtly destructive, he (now)
has enough control over his impulses to avoid taking
*unreasonable* physical risks... I have decided to
pull him from school rather than trying to medicate
him so that he can function there. I know I can
easily tolerate and accomodate (at the moment) his
non-medicated behavior at home. My SIL has a very
different situation, as do you. It would be
ridiculous in me to try to force you to do what is
best for my son in *your* home, where he does not
live!

Thanks again for your kind words, and your insights.
Your opinion is interesting and very valuable!

Eileen

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Eileen M.

--- LASaliger@... wrote:
I don't
> believe (not positive about
> this) that you were even the one who brought up the
> spanking issue.

True.

Have a good time in MN... so far our weather this week
has been on and off lovely and stormy. I believe the
weekend is supposed to be pretty nice, though coolish,
but you never know, do you? Weather is most
interesting to natives as a subject matter in places
where it is least predictable, I notice!

Eileen

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Nanci Kuykendall

>>One size doesn't fit all. >Every child is an
>>individual and there are children that only being
>>"shocked" gets through to.

>I think I disagree, and still do respectfully, even
>after reading Eileen's posts on this subject. We all
>draw lines in the sand - ......The question is,
>where is each person's line in the sand drawn?
-Robin-

I guess I should post on this thread, since I
inadvertantly started it with my thread on dubious
"expert advice". Many of you know that I have an
eldest son with many challenges that make him a daily
struggle to raise. I am not certain from whence all
his problems stem, but we know that he has agression
and anger management issues, patience and attention
span limitations, self control problems and explosive
emotions, multiple severe allergies, asthma, eczema,
and other issues. He is a bright child, and a joy
sometimes, with a hyperactive imagination and a
charming sense of humor. Most folks tell us that we
are models of patience (which I often feel the
opposite of) and that we are wonderful parents doing
our best with a difficult child (when I often feel
like the worst kind of miserable failure with him).
My son right now is four and a half years old and we
are struggling daily with the issue of potty training.

I can sympathise with Eileen, in her quest to deal
with a child with no fear of danger, as I had one too.
He has, thankfully, finally learned some fear of
danger situations and I don't have to worry about him
running in the street anymore, much. But believe me,
he used to. He is also very, VERY physically active,
and was crawling at 4 months (!) and walking (well
running) at 8 months. At the time he was walking, I
was several months into a complicated, extremely
problematic pregnancy. I was sick a lot, and could
not carry him near as much as I would have liked.

Thomas has no fear of strangers and goes with anyone.
Thomas likes to run and hide from us in public places,
or just run from us period. Thomas likes to
constantly challenge and push his limits, and reverify
the rules, over and over and over. Thomas imitates
what he sees on tv and what other people say and do,
with uncanny precision, including innappropriate
behavior. Thomas LOVES girls, and likes to chase and
pester them in public places, taking innappropriate
liberties with touching, etc, with people he doesn't
know.

When Thomas was a toddler, he was not allowed to walk
anywhere in public, as he always ran away from us.
Since I could not carry him, he was always strapped
tightly into his stroller or a shopping cart. Those
were the rules, period. If he didn't want to be in a
cart or his stroller (and believe me, we had plenty of
battles over it) we didn't go. I spent a lot of time
at home his first three years, particularly when his
brother was born (Thomas was 15 months old) and I was
recovering from the pregnancy from hell with no
friends or relatives in a three state radius. I am
not a proponent of leashes or harnesses and will not
use them. Thomas DID run in the streets, parking
lots, towards rivers, stray animals, hot stoves, etc.
The times I was not able to catch him we were able to
get away with just a few scars to remember the
incident, thankfully. But I had many heartstopping
moments in his "running boy" days.

He is FINALLY old enough to stay (mostly) with us when
we go out, and we have been able to get rid of the
hated strollers. Now we have challenges with him in
other areas, and I struggle daily with MY OWN anger
management and controlling the urge to hit. He's the
type of kid that can be a pure joy at times, and at
other times, makes childless people thank their lucky
stars that they never had kids. I am thankful every
day that I can get through with him that I keep my
temper, and I am miserable every day that I lose my
temper. Even though it might get his attention where
many, many other methods have failed, I will never
feel that hitting my child is an answer.

Eileen, I am not attacking you, so don't feel like you
have to defend yourself. I am just sharing my
personal experience as the Mother of a boy who sounds
similar to yours.

Nanci K.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Eileen M.

I don't feel attacked at all... and your son does
sound very like mine was at the time, at least in some
respects. You were lucky that you *could* restrain
your son to a stroller etc... mine could get out of
everything; they simply aren't designed to restrain a
child who is barely two feet tall and weighs less than
fifteen pounds. And staying home was not a
possibility; we HAD to go to the doctor's office, and
the parking lots there were the problematic area.

I can tell you that it is at least possible that
things will get better... at 11 my son is very sweet
and cooperative and bright, though still very active
and unfocussed!

Eileen

--- Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@...> wrote:

> Eileen, I am not attacking you, so don't feel like
> you
> have to defend yourself. I am just sharing my
> personal experience as the Mother of a boy who
> sounds
> similar to yours.
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

DiamondAir

> From: "Eileen M." <ravensegg@...>
> My, my... What an unusual, and apparantly
> irresistable, position for homeschoolers to be in.
> You have managed to become a Moral Majority! The
> decision to "draw your line at 'no violence, never
> hitting a child'" is held up as the gold standard
> which should not be set aside for any reason, even if
> the 'creative' lengths to which one must go in order
> to avoid doing so are effectively more abusive and
> damaging to the psyche of a particular child than the
> hitting itself. The theory, in effect, becomes more
> important than the child.


I think you wildly misunderstood my post, as I can think of no other reason
for the above paragraph and the long diatribe that follows it. What I
stated, and what I stand by (which was, incidentally, in response to Lynda's
post and not yours) is that there is no such position as "live and let live"
and "whatever works for you" with regards to this subject. Whether or not
they want to admit it, everyone has a line somewhere in their head that they
have drawn. That line might be "No violence, no coercion, no restraint,
ever" or that line might be "No physical violence" or it might be "a light
smack on the bottom is OK" or that line might be "A spanking with my hand
but not with anything else" or it might be "A good whipping does a child
good", but *everyone* has a line. I must sincerely doubt that anyone on this
list would say "Well, whatever works for you" to a parent who insisted (as
in my previous example) that scalding a child with hot water was necessary
to teach them about stove safety. This is a ridiculous example of course
(though sadly, probably not one that some parent somewhere has not done),
but it is to illustrate the point - we all have our boundaries. Arguing that
one person is superior to another because they are more open-minded about
spanking is IMHO misguided. We all have our boundaries, they are just in
different places. Given that we have boundaries, and given that we all judge
the *acts* that other parents might take (I, for instance, wouldn't hesitate
to call CPS on a parent I thought was truly abusing their child, if I
thought it was in the child's best interests), I think the best we can do is
try not to judge other *people* though we may judge their actions.

> By your framing of the argument, you would have me
> taking the position that a small amount of violence is
> not harmful to my, or any, child.

I wouldn't have you take any position. I would have you hold to your own
beliefs and I to mine and each freely have the right to state what we
believe.

> That is not a
> position that I could, or would ever wish to, defend.
> My position, my experience, my observation, is that a
> small amount of violence is unavoidable in many...
> probably most... children's lives


This is probably true. But I thought the issue at hand is whether or not the
parent inflicts that violence. I think there's most likely a big difference
in a child's mind between something happening to them and their parents
doing something to them. I was hit by a baseball bat and knocked unconscious
as a child, but that is an entirely different issue in my mind than the
times my parents spanked me.

<long rant about immunizations snipped>

> Can *any* of you guarantee that you haven't done some
> unknown violence or irreparable damage to your child's
> future by any action or decision you have made?


I'm sure none of us can, life doesn't work that way. But again that seems
sort of irrelevant to this discussion. The discussion was about whether or
not specific corporal punishment was a) effective, b) caused psychological
harm, and c) was necessary, and in fact, you yourself asked for input,
saying "what is your solution for it...?"

> Would
> you want a Majority to tell you that you have
> ignorantly and callously played Russian Roulette with
> your child's life?

Oh heck, they do it all the time. Any parent who breastfeeds a toddler or
sleeps with their kids or homeschools for that matter has probably heard
these things a million times. If you really believe that what you are doing
is right, why would it matter what random other people think?

>Would you feel comfortable in
> saying that very thing to other people on this list
> about the immunization, educational, religious,
> sexual, tv/computer, Ritalin issues, among others?


I'd definitely feel comfortable stating my opinion on any of these subjects
if I had one. And I'd hope to feel comfortable listening to other people's
opinions, even if I didn't agree with them, just to see if I could glean
some bit that would be useful and/or applicable in my own life.
I don't think anyone on this list has stated that anyone else has
"ignorantly and callously played Russian Roulette with your child's life"
about *any* subject that I've read about here. I think people have talked
about their opinions about actions, unless I missed something, no-one has
directly accused anyone else of such a thing.

> You are too vulnerable that way. BUT
> you *are* comfortable in applying an inflexible,
> simplistic and virtuous-sounding generality in judging
> a small minority who are un-PC or independent enough
> to see things differently than the Majority.


Hmmmm, I'm wondering here if the "you" who you are speaking to is
specifically me, as the post seems to be directed at me (with my post in
quotes) or if this is a more generic "you". If it is the former, I'd
challenge you to find any post in this thread where I personally judged any
*person* for something I disagreed with. Yes, I strongly disagree with
hitting children and I said "There are always options, other than violence"
which I believe to be a true statement. I dislike the act and that is where
my own personal line is drawn. I don't judge other people however. Heaven
knows, I've made enough mistakes in my own relatively short parenting career
to know that everyone does things they wish they hadn't done and says things
they wish they hadn't said. I don't, however, defend them as being the right
thing to do. I should hope that on this list we can always discuss *actions*
without getting down to specific judgements on *people* as you seem to have
done here in this post (by repeated use of the word "you" followed by all
sorts of outrageous statements.).

Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) inventer of new and wonderful things
and Asa (10/5/99) singer of protest songs
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

Lynda

I wrote the first part of this (one size) and have one child that was an
escape artist from day one! The emergency rooms know him by name! 17
stitches in one foot, almost lost a finger to an ax, teeth busted out,
walking the top rail of a 6' fence at under 2 years of age, climbing to the
top of a closet at a cousin's house and eating a bottle of aspirin (no one
knows how and we can only figure that he actually climbed up clothes like a
monkey) at 18 months, back injury, hip injury, you name it it has happened
to him. He, however, was too fast and too slick to ever catch before the
accidents happened.

Now, No. 2 son was the perfect baby, never cried, always a joy BUT, he lived
in his own world. You could talk until you were blue in the face, show by
example, time out, use patience, physically restrain (your example of the
strollers) and it didn't phase him! When he was in his world, you didn't
get through and even when he wasn't, reality never seemed to intrude when it
came to some things. Shock was the only thing that worked! He got two
swats and 1 spanking (he set fire to our bedroom drapes). He is 21 now and
has said, "Mom you were right" and has said that maybe he needed more
shocks! He thinks his life would have been easier if I had disciplined him
more and he hadn't had to learn quite so many things the hard way (his
words). And here I thought I had over disciplined him.

You really can't win <g>

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nanci Kuykendall" <aisliin@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:31 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Disciplining toddlers


> >>One size doesn't fit all. >Every child is an
> >>individual and there are children that only being
> >>"shocked" gets through to.
>
> >I think I disagree, and still do respectfully, even
> >after reading Eileen's posts on this subject. We all
> >draw lines in the sand - ......The question is,
> >where is each person's line in the sand drawn?
> -Robin-
>
> I guess I should post on this thread, since I
> inadvertantly started it with my thread on dubious
> "expert advice". Many of you know that I have an
> eldest son with many challenges that make him a daily
> struggle to raise. I am not certain from whence all
> his problems stem, but we know that he has agression
> and anger management issues, patience and attention
> span limitations, self control problems and explosive
> emotions, multiple severe allergies, asthma, eczema,
> and other issues. He is a bright child, and a joy
> sometimes, with a hyperactive imagination and a
> charming sense of humor. Most folks tell us that we
> are models of patience (which I often feel the
> opposite of) and that we are wonderful parents doing
> our best with a difficult child (when I often feel
> like the worst kind of miserable failure with him).
> My son right now is four and a half years old and we
> are struggling daily with the issue of potty training.
>
> I can sympathise with Eileen, in her quest to deal
> with a child with no fear of danger, as I had one too.
> He has, thankfully, finally learned some fear of
> danger situations and I don't have to worry about him
> running in the street anymore, much. But believe me,
> he used to. He is also very, VERY physically active,
> and was crawling at 4 months (!) and walking (well
> running) at 8 months. At the time he was walking, I
> was several months into a complicated, extremely
> problematic pregnancy. I was sick a lot, and could
> not carry him near as much as I would have liked.
>
> Thomas has no fear of strangers and goes with anyone.
> Thomas likes to run and hide from us in public places,
> or just run from us period. Thomas likes to
> constantly challenge and push his limits, and reverify
> the rules, over and over and over. Thomas imitates
> what he sees on tv and what other people say and do,
> with uncanny precision, including innappropriate
> behavior. Thomas LOVES girls, and likes to chase and
> pester them in public places, taking innappropriate
> liberties with touching, etc, with people he doesn't
> know.
>
> When Thomas was a toddler, he was not allowed to walk
> anywhere in public, as he always ran away from us.
> Since I could not carry him, he was always strapped
> tightly into his stroller or a shopping cart. Those
> were the rules, period. If he didn't want to be in a
> cart or his stroller (and believe me, we had plenty of
> battles over it) we didn't go. I spent a lot of time
> at home his first three years, particularly when his
> brother was born (Thomas was 15 months old) and I was
> recovering from the pregnancy from hell with no
> friends or relatives in a three state radius. I am
> not a proponent of leashes or harnesses and will not
> use them. Thomas DID run in the streets, parking
> lots, towards rivers, stray animals, hot stoves, etc.
> The times I was not able to catch him we were able to
> get away with just a few scars to remember the
> incident, thankfully. But I had many heartstopping
> moments in his "running boy" days.
>
> He is FINALLY old enough to stay (mostly) with us when
> we go out, and we have been able to get rid of the
> hated strollers. Now we have challenges with him in
> other areas, and I struggle daily with MY OWN anger
> management and controlling the urge to hit. He's the
> type of kid that can be a pure joy at times, and at
> other times, makes childless people thank their lucky
> stars that they never had kids. I am thankful every
> day that I can get through with him that I keep my
> temper, and I am miserable every day that I lose my
> temper. Even though it might get his attention where
> many, many other methods have failed, I will never
> feel that hitting my child is an answer.
>
> Eileen, I am not attacking you, so don't feel like you
> have to defend yourself. I am just sharing my
> personal experience as the Mother of a boy who sounds
> similar to yours.
>
> Nanci K.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Eileen M.

Goodness! Your little monkey kept you hopping, didn't
he? The worst mine has gotten so far is a great big
goose egg on the forehead and a lot of bruises from
bumping into, climbing on, and falling off of
things... but *I* had high blood pressure and heart
palpitations by the time he was four, from the stress
of trying to keep one step ahead of him to prevent him
killing himself. Luckily he's a little more
self-protective now...

I think we don't get out of parenting without some "I
wish I'd have"s... I know my parents say that about
me, and I already say that about my son, and I'm not
done making mistakes yet. Ah, well, at least he knows
I love him; that's a pretty good start!

Eileen
--- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> I wrote the first part of this (one size) and have
> one child that was an
> escape artist from day one! The emergency rooms
> know him by name! 17
> stitches in one foot, almost lost a finger to an ax,
> teeth busted out,
> walking the top rail of a 6' fence at under 2 years
> of age, climbing to the
> top of a closet at a cousin's house and eating a
> bottle of aspirin (no one
> knows how and we can only figure that he actually
> climbed up clothes like a
> monkey) at 18 months, back injury, hip injury, you
> name it it has happened
> to him. He, however, was too fast and too slick to
> ever catch before the
> accidents happened.
>
> Now, No. 2 son was the perfect baby, never cried,
> always a joy BUT, he lived
> in his own world. You could talk until you were
> blue in the face, show by
> example, time out, use patience, physically restrain
> (your example of the
> strollers) and it didn't phase him! When he was in
> his world, you didn't
> get through and even when he wasn't, reality never
> seemed to intrude when it
> came to some things. Shock was the only thing that
> worked! He got two
> swats and 1 spanking (he set fire to our bedroom
> drapes). He is 21 now and
> has said, "Mom you were right" and has said that
> maybe he needed more
> shocks! He thinks his life would have been easier
> if I had disciplined him
> more and he hadn't had to learn quite so many things
> the hard way (his
> words). And here I thought I had over disciplined
> him.
>
> You really can't win <g>
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nanci Kuykendall" <aisliin@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:31 AM
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Disciplining toddlers
>
>
> > >>One size doesn't fit all. >Every child is an
> > >>individual and there are children that only
> being
> > >>"shocked" gets through to.
> >
> > >I think I disagree, and still do respectfully,
> even
> > >after reading Eileen's posts on this subject. We
> all
> > >draw lines in the sand - ......The question is,
> > >where is each person's line in the sand drawn?
> > -Robin-
> >
> > I guess I should post on this thread, since I
> > inadvertantly started it with my thread on dubious
> > "expert advice". Many of you know that I have an
> > eldest son with many challenges that make him a
> daily
> > struggle to raise. I am not certain from whence
> all
> > his problems stem, but we know that he has
> agression
> > and anger management issues, patience and
> attention
> > span limitations, self control problems and
> explosive
> > emotions, multiple severe allergies, asthma,
> eczema,
> > and other issues. He is a bright child, and a joy
> > sometimes, with a hyperactive imagination and a
> > charming sense of humor. Most folks tell us that
> we
> > are models of patience (which I often feel the
> > opposite of) and that we are wonderful parents
> doing
> > our best with a difficult child (when I often feel
> > like the worst kind of miserable failure with
> him).
> > My son right now is four and a half years old and
> we
> > are struggling daily with the issue of potty
> training.
> >
> > I can sympathise with Eileen, in her quest to deal
> > with a child with no fear of danger, as I had one
> too.
> > He has, thankfully, finally learned some fear of
> > danger situations and I don't have to worry about
> him
> > running in the street anymore, much. But believe
> me,
> > he used to. He is also very, VERY physically
> active,
> > and was crawling at 4 months (!) and walking (well
> > running) at 8 months. At the time he was walking,
> I
> > was several months into a complicated, extremely
> > problematic pregnancy. I was sick a lot, and
> could
> > not carry him near as much as I would have liked.
> >
> > Thomas has no fear of strangers and goes with
> anyone.
> > Thomas likes to run and hide from us in public
> places,
> > or just run from us period. Thomas likes to
> > constantly challenge and push his limits, and
> reverify
> > the rules, over and over and over. Thomas
> imitates
> > what he sees on tv and what other people say and
> do,
> > with uncanny precision, including innappropriate
> > behavior. Thomas LOVES girls, and likes to chase
> and
> > pester them in public places, taking
> innappropriate
> > liberties with touching, etc, with people he
> doesn't
> > know.
> >
> > When Thomas was a toddler, he was not allowed to
> walk
> > anywhere in public, as he always ran away from us.
> > Since I could not carry him, he was always
> strapped
> > tightly into his stroller or a shopping cart.
> Those
> > were the rules, period. If he didn't want to be
> in a
> > cart or his stroller (and believe me, we had
> plenty of
> > battles over it) we didn't go. I spent a lot of
> time
> > at home his first three years, particularly when
> his
> > brother was born (Thomas was 15 months old) and I
> was
> > recovering from the pregnancy from hell with no
> > friends or relatives in a three state radius. I
> am
> > not a proponent of leashes or harnesses and will
> not
> > use them. Thomas DID run in the streets, parking
> > lots, towards rivers, stray animals, hot stoves,
> etc.
> > The times I was not able to catch him we were able
> to
> > get away with just a few scars to remember the
> > incident, thankfully. But I had many
> heartstopping
> > moments in his "running boy" days.
> >
> > He is FINALLY old enough to stay (mostly) with us
> when
> > we go out, and we have been able to get rid of the
> > hated strollers. Now we have challenges with him
> in
> > other areas, and I struggle daily with MY OWN
> anger
> > management and controlling the urge to hit. He's
> the
> > type of kid that can be a pure joy at times, and
> at
> > other times, makes childless people thank their
> lucky
> > stars that they never had kids. I am thankful
> every
> > day that I can get through with him that I keep my
> > temper, and I am miserable every day that I lose
> my
> > temper. Even though it might get his attention
> where
> > many, many other methods have failed, I will never
> > feel that hitting my child is an answer.
> >
> > Eileen, I am not attacking you, so don't feel like
> you
> > have to defend yourself. I am just sharing my
> > personal experience as the Mother of a boy who
> sounds
> > similar to yours.
> >
> > Nanci K.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
> prices
> > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter
> and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education
> Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Eileen M.

I am sure there is plenty you have to say on this
issue, and there are probably rational responses I
could make to this post were I to read it, but I am
not available on this issue any more. I said my
piece, I don't think there is anything anyone can say
at this point that would change anyone's mind, I have
heard some thoughtful stuff on the issue and some
assaultive stuff on the issue, and I have had enough.
I don't want to rehash stuff that was from several
days ago, and I said at the time that I had had
enough. If you want to continue the thread, that is
fine, but please leave me and my old posts out of it.


Thank you.

Eileen

--- DiamondAir <diamondair@...> wrote:
> > From: "Eileen M." <ravensegg@...>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Lynda

With all the talk about to swat or not to swat, to restrain or not to
restrain, I think the proof is in the pudding. My sports nut who has given
me all the gray hairs never leaves the house, the mall, the car, a
restaurant without giving "mamma" a hug, a kiss and saying "I love you." He
is 17 and he does this infront of his friends, in front of girlfriends and
in the middle of the mall.

My "perfect" baby who needed the swats, calls just to ask how I am and to
say "I love you, Mom."

Eldest son calls on a regular basis for childrearing advise and always
remembers all the "little things" because "I want my mother to be happy."

The kidlets all collect "orphans" and "walking wounded" and bring them home.

So, like I said, they are all individuals, no pigeon holes and the proof is
in the pudding.

You and your kidlet are going to do fine! The love comes through your posts
and I'm sure he knows and that is the most important thing!!!!

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eileen M." <ravensegg@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Disciplining toddlers


> Goodness! Your little monkey kept you hopping, didn't
> he? The worst mine has gotten so far is a great big
> goose egg on the forehead and a lot of bruises from
> bumping into, climbing on, and falling off of
> things... but *I* had high blood pressure and heart
> palpitations by the time he was four, from the stress
> of trying to keep one step ahead of him to prevent him
> killing himself. Luckily he's a little more
> self-protective now...
>
> I think we don't get out of parenting without some "I
> wish I'd have"s... I know my parents say that about
> me, and I already say that about my son, and I'm not
> done making mistakes yet. Ah, well, at least he knows
> I love him; that's a pretty good start!
>
> Eileen
> --- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> > I wrote the first part of this (one size) and have
> > one child that was an
> > escape artist from day one! The emergency rooms
> > know him by name! 17
> > stitches in one foot, almost lost a finger to an ax,
> > teeth busted out,
> > walking the top rail of a 6' fence at under 2 years
> > of age, climbing to the
> > top of a closet at a cousin's house and eating a
> > bottle of aspirin (no one
> > knows how and we can only figure that he actually
> > climbed up clothes like a
> > monkey) at 18 months, back injury, hip injury, you
> > name it it has happened
> > to him. He, however, was too fast and too slick to
> > ever catch before the
> > accidents happened.
> >
> > Now, No. 2 son was the perfect baby, never cried,
> > always a joy BUT, he lived
> > in his own world. You could talk until you were
> > blue in the face, show by
> > example, time out, use patience, physically restrain
> > (your example of the
> > strollers) and it didn't phase him! When he was in
> > his world, you didn't
> > get through and even when he wasn't, reality never
> > seemed to intrude when it
> > came to some things. Shock was the only thing that
> > worked! He got two
> > swats and 1 spanking (he set fire to our bedroom
> > drapes). He is 21 now and
> > has said, "Mom you were right" and has said that
> > maybe he needed more
> > shocks! He thinks his life would have been easier
> > if I had disciplined him
> > more and he hadn't had to learn quite so many things
> > the hard way (his
> > words). And here I thought I had over disciplined
> > him.
> >
> > You really can't win <g>
> >
> > Lynda
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nanci Kuykendall" <aisliin@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:31 AM
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Disciplining toddlers
> >
> >
> > > >>One size doesn't fit all. >Every child is an
> > > >>individual and there are children that only
> > being
> > > >>"shocked" gets through to.
> > >
> > > >I think I disagree, and still do respectfully,
> > even
> > > >after reading Eileen's posts on this subject. We
> > all
> > > >draw lines in the sand - ......The question is,
> > > >where is each person's line in the sand drawn?
> > > -Robin-
> > >
> > > I guess I should post on this thread, since I
> > > inadvertantly started it with my thread on dubious
> > > "expert advice". Many of you know that I have an
> > > eldest son with many challenges that make him a
> > daily
> > > struggle to raise. I am not certain from whence
> > all
> > > his problems stem, but we know that he has
> > agression
> > > and anger management issues, patience and
> > attention
> > > span limitations, self control problems and
> > explosive
> > > emotions, multiple severe allergies, asthma,
> > eczema,
> > > and other issues. He is a bright child, and a joy
> > > sometimes, with a hyperactive imagination and a
> > > charming sense of humor. Most folks tell us that
> > we
> > > are models of patience (which I often feel the
> > > opposite of) and that we are wonderful parents
> > doing
> > > our best with a difficult child (when I often feel
> > > like the worst kind of miserable failure with
> > him).
> > > My son right now is four and a half years old and
> > we
> > > are struggling daily with the issue of potty
> > training.
> > >
> > > I can sympathise with Eileen, in her quest to deal
> > > with a child with no fear of danger, as I had one
> > too.
> > > He has, thankfully, finally learned some fear of
> > > danger situations and I don't have to worry about
> > him
> > > running in the street anymore, much. But believe
> > me,
> > > he used to. He is also very, VERY physically
> > active,
> > > and was crawling at 4 months (!) and walking (well
> > > running) at 8 months. At the time he was walking,
> > I
> > > was several months into a complicated, extremely
> > > problematic pregnancy. I was sick a lot, and
> > could
> > > not carry him near as much as I would have liked.
> > >
> > > Thomas has no fear of strangers and goes with
> > anyone.
> > > Thomas likes to run and hide from us in public
> > places,
> > > or just run from us period. Thomas likes to
> > > constantly challenge and push his limits, and
> > reverify
> > > the rules, over and over and over. Thomas
> > imitates
> > > what he sees on tv and what other people say and
> > do,
> > > with uncanny precision, including innappropriate
> > > behavior. Thomas LOVES girls, and likes to chase
> > and
> > > pester them in public places, taking
> > innappropriate
> > > liberties with touching, etc, with people he
> > doesn't
> > > know.
> > >
> > > When Thomas was a toddler, he was not allowed to
> > walk
> > > anywhere in public, as he always ran away from us.
> > > Since I could not carry him, he was always
> > strapped
> > > tightly into his stroller or a shopping cart.
> > Those
> > > were the rules, period. If he didn't want to be
> > in a
> > > cart or his stroller (and believe me, we had
> > plenty of
> > > battles over it) we didn't go. I spent a lot of
> > time
> > > at home his first three years, particularly when
> > his
> > > brother was born (Thomas was 15 months old) and I
> > was
> > > recovering from the pregnancy from hell with no
> > > friends or relatives in a three state radius. I
> > am
> > > not a proponent of leashes or harnesses and will
> > not
> > > use them. Thomas DID run in the streets, parking
> > > lots, towards rivers, stray animals, hot stoves,
> > etc.
> > > The times I was not able to catch him we were able
> > to
> > > get away with just a few scars to remember the
> > > incident, thankfully. But I had many
> > heartstopping
> > > moments in his "running boy" days.
> > >
> > > He is FINALLY old enough to stay (mostly) with us
> > when
> > > we go out, and we have been able to get rid of the
> > > hated strollers. Now we have challenges with him
> > in
> > > other areas, and I struggle daily with MY OWN
> > anger
> > > management and controlling the urge to hit. He's
> > the
> > > type of kid that can be a pure joy at times, and
> > at
> > > other times, makes childless people thank their
> > lucky
> > > stars that they never had kids. I am thankful
> > every
> > > day that I can get through with him that I keep my
> > > temper, and I am miserable every day that I lose
> > my
> > > temper. Even though it might get his attention
> > where
> > > many, many other methods have failed, I will never
> > > feel that hitting my child is an answer.
> > >
> > > Eileen, I am not attacking you, so don't feel like
> > you
> > > have to defend yourself. I am just sharing my
> > > personal experience as the Mother of a boy who
> > sounds
> > > similar to yours.
> > >
> > > Nanci K.
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
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> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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>

Eileen M.

A lovely pudding! You must be proud! Thanks for the
reassurance... my son is lovely now, but people keep
telling me that as he enters the teens I'll be in for
some nasty surprises. Glad you all got to the other
side of that whole and hale!

Eileen


--- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> With all the talk about to swat or not to swat, to
> restrain or not to
> restrain, I think the proof is in the pudding.

__________________________________________________
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Lynda

Perhaps you would like a copy of my bumper stickers, just so you will be
prepared <g>

I'm not crazy, I'm raising teenagers.

And my fav (which the kidlets bought me, btw)

Help!!! My sons are teenagers!

It has a picture of that crazy looking woman with her eyes bugging out and
her hair standing on end.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eileen M." <ravensegg@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Disciplining toddlers


> A lovely pudding! You must be proud! Thanks for the
> reassurance... my son is lovely now, but people keep
> telling me that as he enters the teens I'll be in for
> some nasty surprises. Glad you all got to the other
> side of that whole and hale!
>
> Eileen
>
>
> --- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> > With all the talk about to swat or not to swat, to
> > restrain or not to
> > restrain, I think the proof is in the pudding.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Eileen M.

Oh, gee, THAT'S reassuring! ;D

Eileen

--- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> Perhaps you would like a copy of my bumper stickers,
> just so you will be
> prepared <g>
>
> I'm not crazy, I'm raising teenagers.
>
> And my fav (which the kidlets bought me, btw)
>
> Help!!! My sons are teenagers!
>
> It has a picture of that crazy looking woman with
> her eyes bugging out and
> her hair standing on end.
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eileen M." <ravensegg@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 7:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Disciplining
> toddlers
>
>
> > A lovely pudding! You must be proud! Thanks for
> the
> > reassurance... my son is lovely now, but people
> keep
> > telling me that as he enters the teens I'll be in
> for
> > some nasty surprises. Glad you all got to the
> other
> > side of that whole and hale!
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> >
> > --- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> > > With all the talk about to swat or not to swat,
> to
> > > restrain or not to
> > > restrain, I think the proof is in the pudding.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
> prices
> > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter
> and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education
> Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>


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