Nanci Kuykendall

>I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
>that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
>>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
>them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
>by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
>feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
>damned if I do and damned if I don't.
>Eileen

You know Eileen, I had plenty of
teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
time and heartache.

Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
your child like a human being and you do not subject
him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
"socialization" in public schools I would not have
been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
memories best left behind.

Nanci K.


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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Nanci Kuykendall

>I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
>that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
>>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
>them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
>by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
>feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
>damned if I do and damned if I don't.
>Eileen

You know Eileen, I had plenty of
teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
time and heartache.

Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
your child like a human being and you do not subject
him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
"socialization" in public schools I would not have
been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
memories best left behind.

Nanci K.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

[email protected]

<< Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
"socialization" in public schools I would not have
been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
memories best left behind.

Nanci K.>>

((((Nanci))))

I was the child who had a great home life and it DID make the
"socialization" of school more bearable. It was STILL unnecessary and I
think I would have weathered some genetic problems with anxiety and
depression much better had I been schooled at home.

The idea that children will learn to handle their emotional sensitivities
by being bullied and humiliated is ludicrous in the extreme. It's like
saying a wounded animal will "learn" to heal if you release in the middle
of rush hour traffic on the freeway.

Some of these "experts" out to be jailed for child abuse, endangerment
and exploitation.

Kris
________________________________________________________________
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Valerie

Nothing irks me more than that saying.."Spare the rod and spoil the
child." I always reply...."I prefer a spoiled child to a beaten one."

love, Valerie



--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@y...> wrote:
> >I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
> >that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
> >>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
> >them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
> >by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
> >feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
> >damned if I do and damned if I don't.
> >Eileen
>
> You know Eileen, I had plenty of
> teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
> don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
> have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
> parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
> less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
> less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
> deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
> time and heartache.
>
> Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
> child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
> your child like a human being and you do not subject
> him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
> Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
> "socialization" in public schools I would not have
> been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
> child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
> which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
> memories best left behind.
>
> Nanci K.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Johanna

I respect my children as people, but there are times I have physically disciplined them. I am not talking about beating or abusing a child, that is a different subject. When a child stamps his foot at you and screams no to something that is his rightful responsibility, as a parent you need to deal with it. spanking is reserved for severe offenses of boundaries. Picking, teasing and bullying are different subjects. No one should be subjected to these. They are selfishly motivated.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: Nanci Kuykendall
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:41 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] "Expert" Advice (Was Hello...)


>I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
>that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
>>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
>them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
>by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
>feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
>damned if I do and damned if I don't.
>Eileen

You know Eileen, I had plenty of
teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
time and heartache.

Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
your child like a human being and you do not subject
him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
"socialization" in public schools I would not have
been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
memories best left behind.

Nanci K.


__________________________________________________
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http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Johanna

amen Kris. I once had a social worker tell me I was abusing my daughter because at fourteen she knew how to take care of children and wasn't hanging on the streetcorners and involved with boys. She wanted my children taken away!
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: louisam1@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] "Expert" Advice (Was Hello...)


<< Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
"socialization" in public schools I would not have
been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
memories best left behind.

Nanci K.>>

((((Nanci))))

I was the child who had a great home life and it DID make the
"socialization" of school more bearable. It was STILL unnecessary and I
think I would have weathered some genetic problems with anxiety and
depression much better had I been schooled at home.

The idea that children will learn to handle their emotional sensitivities
by being bullied and humiliated is ludicrous in the extreme. It's like
saying a wounded animal will "learn" to heal if you release in the middle
of rush hour traffic on the freeway.

Some of these "experts" out to be jailed for child abuse, endangerment
and exploitation.

Kris
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Click Here!


Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ambersand

When I first had children, I heard the comment "don't pick him up you'll spoil him." Luckily I read somewhere that "things only spoil when left alone to ROT!" ambersand
--------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing irks me more than that saying.."Spare the rod and spoil the child." I always reply...."I prefer a spoiled child to a beaten one."

love, Valerie



--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@y...> wrote:
> >I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
> >that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
> >>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
> >them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
> >by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
> >feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
> >damned if I do and damned if I don't.
> >Eileen
>
> You know Eileen, I had plenty of
> teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
> don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
> have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
> parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
> less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
> less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
> deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
> time and heartache.
>
> Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
> child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
> your child like a human being and you do not subject
> him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
> Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
> "socialization" in public schools I would not have
> been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
> child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
> which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
> memories best left behind.
>
> Nanci K.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/


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kate mcdaniel

I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod, spoil the
child". As parents we are commanded by God to be responsible for the
upbringing of our child. This includes discipline. Does it mean to "beat"
them? NO! It means to correct and discourage them from disobeying. That
sometimes means using a physical form of correction. Please give me one
example of a child that was "spanked" as means of correcting that has been
emotionally damaged. I am not talking about those cases of abuse.
I don't believe "spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains at all to the
disallowing of a child to attend ps for fear of the bullying he/she will
experience. "Spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains to Biblical discipline
of our children.
On Fri, 04 May 2001 07:46:59 EDT, [email protected] wrote:

> When I first had children, I heard the comment "don't pick him up you'll
spoil him." Luckily I read somewhere that "things only spoil when left
alone to ROT!" ambersand
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Nothing irks me more than that saying.."Spare the rod and spoil the
child." I always reply...."I prefer a spoiled child to a beaten one."
>
> love, Valerie
>
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@y...> wrote:
> > >I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
> > >that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
> > >>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
> > >them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
> > >by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
> > >feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
> > >damned if I do and damned if I don't.
> > >Eileen
> >
> > You know Eileen, I had plenty of
> > teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
> > don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
> > have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
> > parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
> > less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
> > less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
> > deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
> > time and heartache.
> >
> > Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
> > child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
> > your child like a human being and you do not subject
> > him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
> > Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
> > "socialization" in public schools I would not have
> > been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
> > child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
> > which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
> > memories best left behind.
> >
> > Nanci K.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more! Check it all
out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>
>
>





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LisaBugg

> I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod, spoil the
> child

This is not a Biblical quote, neither new nor old.

The idea of hitting our children, as a way to punish, does not originate
with the Jewish people.

There are many, Christian and nonChristian, who do not believe hitting our
children should be an acceptable practice. (espeically when we hit one
another it's called "assault and battery") I have known many adults who
believe the 'spankings' they recieved as children harmed them, and the harm
will always be apart of them, even as they heal.

And finally, remember not all of us here are Christians, so what seems to be
ridicule to one is just a statement of fact to another. ;)

Lisa

Judie C. Rall

I haven't read everything you've all been talking about concerning
punishment, but I'd just like to let anyone know who is interested
that I have a webpage for Christians about why spanking and
corporeal punishment is not Biblical, explaining it with scripture.

Also, I personally believe that punishment is not in keeping with the
whole idea of unschooling. Let the consequences of their own
actions teach them.

Judie
Judie

Lynda

Now, before everyone gets their bloomers in a bunch, this is NOT
anti-Christian, so if anyone can't read what I am WRITING, not what their
preconceived notions are, please delete here.

This is one more "proverb" that has gotten twisted compliments, IMHO, of
that old phenomenon a good example of which is the game children play called
"Telephone, Telegraph" inwhich what was originally written or spoken is no
longer recognizable when it gets to the end of the line.

The rod as originally used in the Bible from which folks supposedly got this
saying refers to the staff that shepherds used to herd their sheep. It was
never used to hit anything except in defense of the flock. Sooooo, as
originally intended, the rod as used was a form of guidance and had nothing
to do punishment. Shepherds did NOT punish their sheep, they guided them
and kept them out of trouble and protected them from attacks. It was used
as an extension of the shepherds arm, it was used to help the shepherd get
up steep hills, it was used to rescue stupid sheep and it was used to stop
them from doing stupid things like running off a cliff, for example.

Now, if someone wants to use "the rod" as it was intended, go for it. Any
other use, such as corporal punishment, would not be the intended use nor
the intention of the original proverb which meant GUIDE your child and
protect them from themselves and others.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "kate mcdaniel" <K8MCD@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: "Expert" Advice (Was Hello...)


> I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod, spoil the
> child". As parents we are commanded by God to be responsible for the
> upbringing of our child. This includes discipline. Does it mean to
"beat"
> them? NO! It means to correct and discourage them from disobeying. That
> sometimes means using a physical form of correction. Please give me one
> example of a child that was "spanked" as means of correcting that has been
> emotionally damaged. I am not talking about those cases of abuse.
> I don't believe "spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains at all to the
> disallowing of a child to attend ps for fear of the bullying he/she will
> experience. "Spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains to Biblical
discipline
> of our children.
> On Fri, 04 May 2001 07:46:59 EDT, [email protected]
wrote:
>
> > When I first had children, I heard the comment "don't pick him up
you'll
> spoil him." Luckily I read somewhere that "things only spoil when left
> alone to ROT!" ambersand
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Nothing irks me more than that saying.."Spare the rod and spoil the
> child." I always reply...."I prefer a spoiled child to a beaten one."
> >
> > love, Valerie
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@y...> wrote:
> > > >I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
> > > >that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
> > > >>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
> > > >them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
> > > >by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
> > > >feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
> > > >damned if I do and damned if I don't.
> > > >Eileen
> > >
> > > You know Eileen, I had plenty of
> > > teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
> > > don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
> > > have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
> > > parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
> > > less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
> > > less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
> > > deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
> > > time and heartache.
> > >
> > > Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
> > > child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
> > > your child like a human being and you do not subject
> > > him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
> > > Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
> > > "socialization" in public schools I would not have
> > > been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
> > > child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
> > > which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
> > > memories best left behind.
> > >
> > > Nanci K.
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> > > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more! Check it
all
> out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________
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>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Sarah

The Bible also says, "Treat others as you would like to be treated." I
have never thought to myself, "Shoot, I got out of my seat a little too
early, guess I'm in need of a spanking." Reminds me of a bad porno.

I would never use the bible as an excuse to physically harm another
being. Can you really see Jesus Christ taking off his belt and whacking
the little children? I was only spanked once. I remember it vividly.
It was your traditional spanking, I was about four, and it did cause me
some serious distress.

I believe it is my obligation and special privilege to teach a child
through actions. I have no desire to say, "Do as I say, not as I do."
Showing a child that spanking is a great form of punishment teaches that
violent acts are okay, talking something out is not important, parents
are not friends or confidants, and that one is not in control of one's
own body. Nice behavior begets nice behavior. Hitting a child teaches
a child it is okay to hit another being.

How can you raise an empowered child, a child that can say, "NO! Don't
touch me there!" when the child's own parents find it acceptable to hit
this same child on a very private part of their body?

I have never hit my dogs, and they are lovely animals...very well
behaved. Why would I treat a child worse than a dog?

Sarah Anderson-Thimmes


kate mcdaniel wrote:

> I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod, spoil
> the
> child". As parents we are commanded by God to be responsible for the
> upbringing of our child. This includes discipline. Does it mean to
> "beat"
> them? NO! It means to correct and discourage them from disobeying.
> That
> sometimes means using a physical form of correction. Please give me
> one
> example of a child that was "spanked" as means of correcting that has
> been
> emotionally damaged. I am not talking about those cases of abuse.
> I don't believe "spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains at all to
> the
> disallowing of a child to attend ps for fear of the bullying he/she
> will
> experience. "Spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains to Biblical
> discipline
> of our children.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod, spoil the
child". As parents we are commanded by God to be responsible for the
upbringing of our child. This includes discipline.>>

Disciple means teach. Since MANY, MANY people are raising wonderful
people without spanking them as children the idea that spanking is needed
cannot be supported. If it is not needed why would anyone choose to
spank?

ALL religions which use the Bible as their source are selective about
which scriptures they adhere to most closely. There are many more
references to selling your stuff, living simply and giving most of what
you have away. I meet MANY folks who seem comfortable with ignoring
these verses and yet feel commanded to hit their children.

<<Does it mean to "beat"
them? NO! It means to correct and discourage them from disobeying.>>

Actually, the Bible says "BEAT". I believe that God has brought me,
through Jesus, into a relationship of friendship with Him (it's in the
Bible) and is an example of how I should live with my children. I have
not had to hit them to get their cooperation.

Keep in mind, if the motivation is external it isn't real. People
overcome their fears. I would rather know that my children cooperate
with me because it is what they truly believe and feel. If I'm doing my
job, my example should be enough to convince them of appropriate
behavior.

Kris
________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]

I'm not interested in contributing to an off-topic war on this issue,
but there is one thing noone ever mentions when it is raised on
mailing lists, and which I believe is of significant importance.

The argument is generally over whether hitting kids--in whatever way
their parents have decided is acceptable--is "good for them". Those
in favor of it often say or at least imply that it "teaches them"
something or somehow builds their character in a way that no
non-violent approach could.

The fact is that there are, and have been throughout recorded
history, entire CULTURES that flourished in peace and plenty without
anyone striking or otherwise dominating their children. Most of them
were not at all violent, though some produced formidable warriors.
They tended to exhibit more interpersonal respect in general than
cultures that make "exceptions" to the "whacking people is bad" rule.
.women and elders, for instance, were generally valued as equal
members of the society, despite the fact that they were by and large
less equipped to be whackers than whackees. When those that no
longer exist ceased to do so, it was usually due to some external
force. The members of those cultures were capable of resolving
conflicts without bloody revolutions or acts of terrorism, and their
societies didn't rip themselves apart. They weren't people who felt
that all power flows from the barrel of a gun (or the equivalent), in
part because physical strength or its lack had never been held up to
them as the limiting factor in their rights.

If you don't believe me, feel free to investigate for yourself.
Margaret Mead, Ruth Benedict, and Marija Gimbutas leap to mind as
early researchers in the area, but there are more recent works you
could look at. Many extant Native American cultures view violence of
any kind against children as deplorable, as do members of at least
some Indian castes. I'm not positive, but I think the Quakers share
that opinion. Perhaps you could do some reading or find a member of
such a group to discuss things with. Finding out what childhood is
like and how interactions between adults are different in societies
that don't rely on "might makes right" in parenting is a real
eye-opener.

Misty Blagg
athterath@...

[email protected]

Thanks Misty. I am so totally against violence except in self
defense. We were sucked into the whole control your kids thing from
the day they were born. It never did and never will work and it took
me a few years, unfortunately, to figure out that they are people
with feelings like me. It never felt right and I never felt like I
was helping them, only hurting. I finally told my guys that I would
never hurt them again and that there is no excuse for violence and no
one EVER deserves to be hit or injured, no matter the offense.

In an earlier post, when I stated that something only "spoils when
left to rot", I hope everyone knew I was refering to physical
affection and attention, not discipline.

ambersand




--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., athterath@H... wrote:
> I'm not interested in contributing to an off-topic war on this
issue,
> but there is one thing noone ever mentions when it is raised on
> mailing lists, and which I believe is of significant importance.
>
> The argument is generally over whether hitting kids--in whatever
way
> their parents have decided is acceptable--is "good for them".
Those
> in favor of it often say or at least imply that it "teaches them"
> something or somehow builds their character in a way that no
> non-violent approach could.
>
> The fact is that there are, and have been throughout recorded
> history, entire CULTURES that flourished in peace and plenty
without
> anyone striking or otherwise dominating their children. Most of
them
> were not at all violent, though some produced formidable warriors.
> They tended to exhibit more interpersonal respect in general than
> cultures that make "exceptions" to the "whacking people is bad"
rule.
> .women and elders, for instance, were generally valued as equal
> members of the society, despite the fact that they were by and
large
> less equipped to be whackers than whackees. When those that no
> longer exist ceased to do so, it was usually due to some external
> force. The members of those cultures were capable of resolving
> conflicts without bloody revolutions or acts of terrorism, and
their
> societies didn't rip themselves apart. They weren't people who
felt
> that all power flows from the barrel of a gun (or the equivalent),
in
> part because physical strength or its lack had never been held up
to
> them as the limiting factor in their rights.
>
> If you don't believe me, feel free to investigate for yourself.
> Margaret Mead, Ruth Benedict, and Marija Gimbutas leap to mind as
> early researchers in the area, but there are more recent works you
> could look at. Many extant Native American cultures view violence
of
> any kind against children as deplorable, as do members of at least
> some Indian castes. I'm not positive, but I think the Quakers
share
> that opinion. Perhaps you could do some reading or find a member
of
> such a group to discuss things with. Finding out what childhood is
> like and how interactions between adults are different in societies
> that don't rely on "might makes right" in parenting is a real
> eye-opener.
>
> Misty Blagg
> athterath@H...

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/4/2001 4:14:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
K8MCD@... writes:


> NO! It means to correct and discourage them from disobeying. That
> sometimes means using a physical form of correction. Please give me one
> example of a child that was "spanked" as means of correcting that has been
> emotionally damaged. I am not talking about those cases of abuse.


Disobeying who? The all knowing parent/teacher/doctor, etc.? I prefer a
thinking "disobeying" child anyday over one that obeys because the older
and/or authoritarian person in their life told them so. Children don't need a
correction by physical means, nor by any means, except in the case of their
imminent physical danger, IMO. There are a plethora of examples of people who
were "emotionally damaged" as a result of "physical correction" as
youngsters. Hitting a child, an animal, or any living being is behavior that
only speaks about control . . . you, the hitter, needing to control another
being for some reason.





lovemary
If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/4/01 4:11:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:

<< Sooooo, as
originally intended, the rod as used was a form of guidance and had nothing
to do punishment. Shepherds did NOT punish their sheep, they guided them
and kept them out of trouble and protected them from attacks. >>

Thanks for posting this, Lynda. I remembered that it didn't apply in
the way people try to use it but I couldn't remember the specifics. Thanks!

Lucy

Valerie

This nosey woman in our town asked me if I was concerned that Laurie
might "like" girls since she wasn't boy-crazy at age 16. I didn't
know whether to laugh or punch her. I laughed and avoided contact
with her forever...

love, Valerie

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Johanna" <saninocencio1@c...> wrote:
> amen Kris. I once had a social worker tell me I was abusing my
daughter because at fourteen she knew how to take care of children
and wasn't hanging on the streetcorners and involved with boys. She
wanted my children taken away!
> Johanna
> Life is the ultimate learning experience!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: louisam1@j...
> To: Unschooling-dotcom@y...
> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] "Expert" Advice (Was Hello...)
>
>
> << Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
> "socialization" in public schools I would not have
> been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
> child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
> which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
> memories best left behind.
>
> Nanci K.>>
>
> ((((Nanci))))
>
> I was the child who had a great home life and it DID make the
> "socialization" of school more bearable. It was STILL
unnecessary and I
> think I would have weathered some genetic problems with anxiety
and
> depression much better had I been schooled at home.
>
> The idea that children will learn to handle their emotional
sensitivities
> by being bullied and humiliated is ludicrous in the extreme.
It's like
> saying a wounded animal will "learn" to heal if you release in
the middle
> of rush hour traffic on the freeway.
>
> Some of these "experts" out to be jailed for child abuse,
endangerment
> and exploitation.
>
> Kris
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
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>
> Click Here!
>
>
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> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 05/04/2001 11:11:02 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
lurine@... writes:


> Now, if someone wants to use "the rod" as it was intended, go for it.


LOL -- since most of us probably don't think of our children as sheep in this
day and age, maybe the saying has outlived its usefulness.

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Valerie Stewart

LOL -- since most of us probably don't think of our children as sheep in
this
day and age, maybe the saying has outlived its usefulness.

Nance

***Mine are definately not sheepish. Wolfish yes, sheepish, no.

Valerie, mother of wolf puppies in Tacoma

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/4/01 7:51:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lite2yu@...
writes:

<< There are a plethora of examples of people who
were "emotionally damaged" as a result of "physical correction" as
youngsters. >>

I actually haven't personally seen one example of an adult using
"physical correction" who couldn't have come up with a much better way to
reach a child (if that is truly needed) and it always seems to be done in
irritation and anger. I have also noticed that kids who have been hit
sometimes hit other kids in a way that mimics the parents' hitting of them.
I just don't understand why parents feel a need to use varying degrees
of physical pain inflicted on a child as a discipline method. Disciplining
is actually supposed to mean teaching, as people can tell from the other
related word, disciple. What is the instance in which hitting HAS to be used
or is better than any other alternative?

Lucy

Valerie

lol...I like that ambersand... I carried Laurie (when she wanted me
to) until she was six years old and her feet drug the ground. I
figured the time would come soon enough when she wouldn't let me (or
my back gave out) so I enjoyed every minute of it.

love, Valerie


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "ambersand" <ambersand@m...> wrote:
> When I first had children, I heard the comment "don't pick him up
you'll spoil him." Luckily I read somewhere that "things only spoil
when left alone to ROT!" ambersand
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Nothing irks me more than that saying.."Spare the rod and spoil
the child." I always reply...."I prefer a spoiled child to a beaten
one."
>
> love, Valerie
>
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@y...>
wrote:
> > >I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
> > >that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
> > >>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
> > >them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
> > >by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
> > >feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
> > >damned if I do and damned if I don't.
> > >Eileen
> >
> > You know Eileen, I had plenty of
> > teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
> > don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
> > have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
> > parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
> > less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
> > less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
> > deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
> > time and heartache.
> >
> > Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
> > child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
> > your child like a human being and you do not subject
> > him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
> > Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
> > "socialization" in public schools I would not have
> > been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
> > child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
> > which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
> > memories best left behind.
> >
> > Nanci K.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------
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Valerie

Hi Kate,

Would you mind telling me which Proverbs that is? Does it actually
say, "spare the rod, spoil the child?" I was told that it doesn't.

The Biblical passages are deciphered differently by different people.
I for one do not take it so literally. I can NOT imagine Jesus
hitting a child, whether He called it spanking or something else.

I never felt that hitting/spanking a child was a civilized way of
teaching them right from wrong. I preferred communication. I was
spanked as a child, not 'abused.' I suffered from it, and no it
wasn't often and it wasn't with great force. It was simply total
humiliation. Spanking IMO is something that is used when patience is
lost and words can't be found. Listening, REALLY listening to Laurie
worked better than using the spanking/powertrip thing...not that I
ever resorted to hitting her.

love, Valerie

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., kate mcdaniel <K8MCD@E...> wrote:
> I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod, spoil
the
> child". As parents we are commanded by God to be responsible for
the
> upbringing of our child. This includes discipline. Does it mean
to "beat"
> them? NO! It means to correct and discourage them from
disobeying. That
> sometimes means using a physical form of correction. Please give
me one
> example of a child that was "spanked" as means of correcting that
has been
> emotionally damaged. I am not talking about those cases of abuse.
> I don't believe "spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains at all to
the
> disallowing of a child to attend ps for fear of the bullying he/she
will
> experience. "Spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains to Biblical
discipline
> of our children.
> On Fri, 04 May 2001 07:46:59 EDT, Unschooling-dotcom@y... wrote:
>
> > When I first had children, I heard the comment "don't pick him
up you'll
> spoil him." Luckily I read somewhere that "things only spoil when
left
> alone to ROT!" ambersand
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Nothing irks me more than that saying.."Spare the rod and spoil
the
> child." I always reply...."I prefer a spoiled child to a beaten
one."
> >
> > love, Valerie
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@y...>
wrote:
> > > >I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
> > > >that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
> > > >>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
> > > >them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
> > > >by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
> > > >feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
> > > >damned if I do and damned if I don't.
> > > >Eileen
> > >
> > > You know Eileen, I had plenty of
> > > teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
> > > don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
> > > have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
> > > parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
> > > less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
> > > less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
> > > deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
> > > time and heartache.
> > >
> > > Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
> > > child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
> > > your child like a human being and you do not subject
> > > him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
> > > Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
> > > "socialization" in public schools I would not have
> > > been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
> > > child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
> > > which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
> > > memories best left behind.
> > >
> > > Nanci K.
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> > > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all
> out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________
> Send a cool gift with your E-Card
> http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/

Valerie

Ditto Lisa


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "LisaBugg" <LisaBugg@u...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod,
spoil the
> > child
>
> This is not a Biblical quote, neither new nor old.
>
> The idea of hitting our children, as a way to punish, does not
originate
> with the Jewish people.
>
> There are many, Christian and nonChristian, who do not believe
hitting our
> children should be an acceptable practice. (espeically when we hit
one
> another it's called "assault and battery") I have known many
adults who
> believe the 'spankings' they recieved as children harmed them, and
the harm
> will always be apart of them, even as they heal.
>
> And finally, remember not all of us here are Christians, so what
seems to be
> ridicule to one is just a statement of fact to another. ;)
>
> Lisa

Valerie

Well said Sarah. We have both obviously thought about the ludicrous
picture of Jesus hitting a child. I can remember crying my eyes out
because my brothers got a spanking. I was six, in the car, and we
were on the interstate. They were arguing and Dad pulled over and in
front of everyone on the interstate (he took them out of the car) he
spanked them. I was so humiliated for them. I would say this was a
bad effect from spanking...if I can remember it so vividly 40 years
later.

love, Valerie

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Sarah <sld29@c...> wrote:
> The Bible also says, "Treat others as you would like to be
treated." I
> have never thought to myself, "Shoot, I got out of my seat a little
too
> early, guess I'm in need of a spanking." Reminds me of a bad porno.
>
> I would never use the bible as an excuse to physically harm another
> being. Can you really see Jesus Christ taking off his belt and
whacking
> the little children? I was only spanked once. I remember it
vividly.
> It was your traditional spanking, I was about four, and it did
cause me
> some serious distress.
>
> I believe it is my obligation and special privilege to teach a child
> through actions. I have no desire to say, "Do as I say, not as I
do."
> Showing a child that spanking is a great form of punishment teaches
that
> violent acts are okay, talking something out is not important,
parents
> are not friends or confidants, and that one is not in control of
one's
> own body. Nice behavior begets nice behavior. Hitting a child
teaches
> a child it is okay to hit another being.
>
> How can you raise an empowered child, a child that can say, "NO!
Don't
> touch me there!" when the child's own parents find it acceptable
to hit
> this same child on a very private part of their body?
>
> I have never hit my dogs, and they are lovely animals...very well
> behaved. Why would I treat a child worse than a dog?
>
> Sarah Anderson-Thimmes
>
>
> kate mcdaniel wrote:
>
> > I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod,
spoil
> > the
> > child". As parents we are commanded by God to be responsible for
the
> > upbringing of our child. This includes discipline. Does it mean
to
> > "beat"
> > them? NO! It means to correct and discourage them from
disobeying.
> > That
> > sometimes means using a physical form of correction. Please give
me
> > one
> > example of a child that was "spanked" as means of correcting that
has
> > been
> > emotionally damaged. I am not talking about those cases of abuse.
> > I don't believe "spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains at all
to
> > the
> > disallowing of a child to attend ps for fear of the bullying
he/she
> > will
> > experience. "Spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains to Biblical
> > discipline
> > of our children.
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Valerie

Kris...oh Kris... your last paragraph allowed me to shed a few tears
Thank you,
love, Valerie

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., louisam1@j... wrote:
> <<I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod,
spoil the
> child". As parents we are commanded by God to be responsible for
the
> upbringing of our child. This includes discipline.>>
>
> Disciple means teach. Since MANY, MANY people are raising wonderful
> people without spanking them as children the idea that spanking is
needed
> cannot be supported. If it is not needed why would anyone choose to
> spank?
>
> ALL religions which use the Bible as their source are selective
about
> which scriptures they adhere to most closely. There are many more
> references to selling your stuff, living simply and giving most of
what
> you have away. I meet MANY folks who seem comfortable with ignoring
> these verses and yet feel commanded to hit their children.
>
> <<Does it mean to "beat"
> them? NO! It means to correct and discourage them from
disobeying.>>
>
> Actually, the Bible says "BEAT". I believe that God has brought me,
> through Jesus, into a relationship of friendship with Him (it's in
the
> Bible) and is an example of how I should live with my children. I
have
> not had to hit them to get their cooperation.
>
> Keep in mind, if the motivation is external it isn't real. People
> overcome their fears. I would rather know that my children
cooperate
> with me because it is what they truly believe and feel. If I'm
doing my
> job, my example should be enough to convince them of appropriate
> behavior.
>
> Kris
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Valerie

Hi Misty,

I wish I had this post when I had to write an essay for my sociology
theorists test! Very interesting...
thank you,

love, Valerie

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., athterath@H... wrote:
> I'm not interested in contributing to an off-topic war on this
issue,
> but there is one thing noone ever mentions when it is raised on
> mailing lists, and which I believe is of significant importance.
>
> The argument is generally over whether hitting kids--in whatever
way
> their parents have decided is acceptable--is "good for them".
Those
> in favor of it often say or at least imply that it "teaches them"
> something or somehow builds their character in a way that no
> non-violent approach could.
>
> The fact is that there are, and have been throughout recorded
> history, entire CULTURES that flourished in peace and plenty
without
> anyone striking or otherwise dominating their children. Most of
them
> were not at all violent, though some produced formidable warriors.
> They tended to exhibit more interpersonal respect in general than
> cultures that make "exceptions" to the "whacking people is bad"
rule.
> .women and elders, for instance, were generally valued as equal
> members of the society, despite the fact that they were by and
large
> less equipped to be whackers than whackees. When those that no
> longer exist ceased to do so, it was usually due to some external
> force. The members of those cultures were capable of resolving
> conflicts without bloody revolutions or acts of terrorism, and
their
> societies didn't rip themselves apart. They weren't people who
felt
> that all power flows from the barrel of a gun (or the equivalent),
in
> part because physical strength or its lack had never been held up
to
> them as the limiting factor in their rights.
>
> If you don't believe me, feel free to investigate for yourself.
> Margaret Mead, Ruth Benedict, and Marija Gimbutas leap to mind as
> early researchers in the area, but there are more recent works you
> could look at. Many extant Native American cultures view violence
of
> any kind against children as deplorable, as do members of at least
> some Indian castes. I'm not positive, but I think the Quakers
share
> that opinion. Perhaps you could do some reading or find a member
of
> such a group to discuss things with. Finding out what childhood is
> like and how interactions between adults are different in societies
> that don't rely on "might makes right" in parenting is a real
> eye-opener.
>
> Misty Blagg
> athterath@H...

Valerie

Goooooo Lynda... it seems that many of us have done our homework
about spanking.. must be that studying discipline we learned in
public school...

love, Valerie


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> Now, before everyone gets their bloomers in a bunch, this is NOT
> anti-Christian, so if anyone can't read what I am WRITING, not what
their
> preconceived notions are, please delete here.
>
> This is one more "proverb" that has gotten twisted compliments,
IMHO, of
> that old phenomenon a good example of which is the game children
play called
> "Telephone, Telegraph" inwhich what was originally written or
spoken is no
> longer recognizable when it gets to the end of the line.
>
> The rod as originally used in the Bible from which folks supposedly
got this
> saying refers to the staff that shepherds used to herd their
sheep. It was
> never used to hit anything except in defense of the flock. Sooooo,
as
> originally intended, the rod as used was a form of guidance and had
nothing
> to do punishment. Shepherds did NOT punish their sheep, they
guided them
> and kept them out of trouble and protected them from attacks. It
was used
> as an extension of the shepherds arm, it was used to help the
shepherd get
> up steep hills, it was used to rescue stupid sheep and it was used
to stop
> them from doing stupid things like running off a cliff, for example.
>
> Now, if someone wants to use "the rod" as it was intended, go for
it. Any
> other use, such as corporal punishment, would not be the intended
use nor
> the intention of the original proverb which meant GUIDE your child
and
> protect them from themselves and others.
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kate mcdaniel" <K8MCD@E...>
> To: <Unschooling-dotcom@y...>
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: "Expert" Advice (Was Hello...)
>
>
> > I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod,
spoil the
> > child". As parents we are commanded by God to be responsible for
the
> > upbringing of our child. This includes discipline. Does it mean
to
> "beat"
> > them? NO! It means to correct and discourage them from
disobeying. That
> > sometimes means using a physical form of correction. Please give
me one
> > example of a child that was "spanked" as means of correcting that
has been
> > emotionally damaged. I am not talking about those cases of abuse.
> > I don't believe "spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains at all
to the
> > disallowing of a child to attend ps for fear of the bullying
he/she will
> > experience. "Spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains to Biblical
> discipline
> > of our children.
> > On Fri, 04 May 2001 07:46:59 EDT, Unschooling-dotcom@y...
> wrote:
> >
> > > When I first had children, I heard the comment "don't pick him
up
> you'll
> > spoil him." Luckily I read somewhere that "things only spoil
when left
> > alone to ROT!" ambersand
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Nothing irks me more than that saying.."Spare the rod and
spoil the
> > child." I always reply...."I prefer a spoiled child to a beaten
one."
> > >
> > > love, Valerie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Nanci Kuykendall
<aisliin@y...> wrote:
> > > > >I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
> > > > >that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
> > > > >>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
> > > > >them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
> > > > >by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
> > > > >feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
> > > > >damned if I do and damned if I don't.
> > > > >Eileen
> > > >
> > > > You know Eileen, I had plenty of
> > > > teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
> > > > don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
> > > > have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
> > > > parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
> > > > less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
> > > > less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
> > > > deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
> > > > time and heartache.
> > > >
> > > > Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
> > > > child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
> > > > your child like a human being and you do not subject
> > > > him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
> > > > Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
> > > > "socialization" in public schools I would not have
> > > > been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
> > > > child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
> > > > which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
> > > > memories best left behind.
> > > >
> > > > Nanci K.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> >

Valerie

I for one am beaming that you changed your ways and told them you
would never hurt them again. What a strong woman you are ambersand!

love, Valerie


-- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., ambersand@m... wrote:
> Thanks Misty. I am so totally against violence except in self
> defense. We were sucked into the whole control your kids thing
from
> the day they were born. It never did and never will work and it
took
> me a few years, unfortunately, to figure out that they are people
> with feelings like me. It never felt right and I never felt like I
> was helping them, only hurting. I finally told my guys that I
would
> never hurt them again and that there is no excuse for violence and
no
> one EVER deserves to be hit or injured, no matter the offense.
>
> In an earlier post, when I stated that something only "spoils when
> left to rot", I hope everyone knew I was refering to physical
> affection and attention, not discipline.
>
> ambersand
>
>
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., athterath@H... wrote:
> > I'm not interested in contributing to an off-topic war on this
> issue,
> > but there is one thing noone ever mentions when it is raised on
> > mailing lists, and which I believe is of significant importance.
> >
> > The argument is generally over whether hitting kids--in whatever
> way
> > their parents have decided is acceptable--is "good for them".
> Those
> > in favor of it often say or at least imply that it "teaches them"
> > something or somehow builds their character in a way that no
> > non-violent approach could.
> >
> > The fact is that there are, and have been throughout recorded
> > history, entire CULTURES that flourished in peace and plenty
> without
> > anyone striking or otherwise dominating their children. Most of
> them
> > were not at all violent, though some produced formidable
warriors.
> > They tended to exhibit more interpersonal respect in general than
> > cultures that make "exceptions" to the "whacking people is bad"
> rule.
> > .women and elders, for instance, were generally valued as equal
> > members of the society, despite the fact that they were by and
> large
> > less equipped to be whackers than whackees. When those that no
> > longer exist ceased to do so, it was usually due to some external
> > force. The members of those cultures were capable of resolving
> > conflicts without bloody revolutions or acts of terrorism, and
> their
> > societies didn't rip themselves apart. They weren't people who
> felt
> > that all power flows from the barrel of a gun (or the
equivalent),
> in
> > part because physical strength or its lack had never been held up
> to
> > them as the limiting factor in their rights.
> >
> > If you don't believe me, feel free to investigate for yourself.
> > Margaret Mead, Ruth Benedict, and Marija Gimbutas leap to mind as
> > early researchers in the area, but there are more recent works
you
> > could look at. Many extant Native American cultures view
violence
> of
> > any kind against children as deplorable, as do members of at
least
> > some Indian castes. I'm not positive, but I think the Quakers
> share
> > that opinion. Perhaps you could do some reading or find a member
> of
> > such a group to discuss things with. Finding out what childhood
is
> > like and how interactions between adults are different in
societies
> > that don't rely on "might makes right" in parenting is a real
> > eye-opener.
> >
> > Misty Blagg
> > athterath@H...

Valerie

Okay... I wasn't going to put anything in the book about spanking
because it is so controversial. Now I am tempted to ask permission
from each of you anti-spanking people to quote your posts. I could
put your name in the book under it and you'd be famous too!!!

love, Valerie


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., lite2yu@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/4/2001 4:14:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> K8MCD@E... writes:
>
>
> > NO! It means to correct and discourage them from disobeying. That
> > sometimes means using a physical form of correction. Please give
me one
> > example of a child that was "spanked" as means of correcting that
has been
> > emotionally damaged. I am not talking about those cases of abuse.
>
>
> Disobeying who? The all knowing parent/teacher/doctor, etc.? I
prefer a
> thinking "disobeying" child anyday over one that obeys because the
older
> and/or authoritarian person in their life told them so. Children
don't need a
> correction by physical means, nor by any means, except in the case
of their
> imminent physical danger, IMO. There are a plethora of examples of
people who
> were "emotionally damaged" as a result of "physical correction" as
> youngsters. Hitting a child, an animal, or any living being is
behavior that
> only speaks about control . . . you, the hitter, needing to control
another
> being for some reason.
>
>
>
>
>
> lovemary
> If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at
yourself, and then
> make a change.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]