[email protected]

Hello all! I've been lurking too much and not spouting off enough (tee hee)!

Re: Immunizations
My mother refused to immunize/vaccinate all four of her children (of which I
am the second). I wonder if people thought she was nuts? My mother told me
(repeatedly!) about little boys and girls who got Polio from vaccination
shots,
and how lucky I was that she didn't take that chance with me. It didn't
really mean anything to me then.

I grew up healthy, of course. When I got married I got a rubella shot, per
doctor's orders to "protect my unborn children." When I had my children,
they
were both immunized along the usual "schedule" per my pediatrician. Funny
thing, though. I remembered my mother's stories about polio and insisted
that
my children only get the "inactive" polio virus - despite the pediatrician
insisting that it isn't as "effective." I had to explain that I had never
been immunized as a child and therefor ran the risk of getting polio from my
now-vaccinated child if they gave him/her the "active" virus.

Re: Handwriting
My grandmother had the most beautiful, delicate handwriting I have ever
seen.
She wrote so slowly and carefully - it was almost art. I, on the other had,
having learned "cursive" in p.s., and being a person who writes constantly
in
journals, letters, reports, essays, etc., now "cursive" exactly two words:
Melissa and Williams - my signature. That's it. My "handwriting" is printing
and it's damn nice, too.

I print because it's faster, easier, better-looking and no one gives a
rat's-
butt if I use cursive. I've never heard of "Calvert Script" and think I
would
laugh at the guy who insisted my kid used it. Handwriting is nice to know,
IMO, because people still use it and you might want to be able to read it
now
and then (especially in a letter from your awesome grandmother!). Although,
I
suppose everyone has to have a "signature" for security reasons on checks
and
the like, right? I will say this, though, it drives me crazy to read things
from people who can't spell very well (postings on this list excluded, of
course <g>). I am a big proponent of learning to spell, not necessarily of
learning cursive. My dad (in his late 50's now and one of the most
intelligent guys I know) spells phonetically. No kidding. He is the
president
of a large corporation and writes/speaks fluently but stinks at spelling.
Hmmm.

Re: Gifted Labels
O.k., here it is: you are at this moment reading a posting from a "gifted"
child. Taught myself to read at age 3, learned to write by age 4, labeled
"Gifted" by
the time I walked through the Kindergarten door. By the 6th grade I tested
at the 14th grade (2nd year college) level in all areas but math (I only hit
11th grade there).

Now, here I am (some years later) -- average. You know how new moms compare
their babies by saying "mine walked at 8 months" and "mine walked at 15
months?" but when they are 5 y.o. you can't tell who walked first? That's me.
I read first, wrote first,
finished first, spelled better, computed better, comprehended better - and
now, I'm a regular Joe (well, Jane, anyway). I don't think you could ever
tell I was "gifted" in school.

My point (you knew there had to be one coming, eh?): IMO, Labels on our
kids are only useful for people who don't know them and need a way to "box"
them and "categorize"
them. I know my children (and myself) very well. I don't need to label them
for anyone. In the end, school-years labels are useless in real life.

Thanks for listening.

Melissa
Mama to Josh (11/94) and Chase (01/98)
"Wife, Mother and Keeper of All Things Domestic"

[email protected]

In a message dated 08/14/1999 1:16:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
DKidsnUs@... writes:

<< Hello all! I've been lurking too much and not spouting off enough (tee
hee)!>>

Boy, Melissa! I'm sure glad you came out of lurk mode!!

(snip)

<< I've never heard of "Calvert Script" and think I
would
laugh at the guy who insisted my kid used it.>>

I didn't exactly laugh!!!! Of course, that was then....now I find it
hilarious!!! And stupid!!

(snip)

<<Although, I suppose everyone has to have a "signature" for security reasons
on checks
and the like, right?>>

Actually, can't you just have an "X" for your legal sig????


<). I am a big proponent of learning to spell, not necessarily of
learning cursive. My dad (in his late 50's now and one of the most
intelligent guys I know) spells phonetically. No kidding. He is the
president of a large corporation and writes/speaks fluently but stinks at
spelling.
Hmmm.>>

Me, too...but the funny thing is, I don't know WHY I can spell ... I've just
always been able to remember how a word's supposed to be....phonics isn't
it...I didn't realize how prone to exceptions the english language is until I
tried to teach my dd phonics!!! As to your Dad....he probably has a computer
with SpellCheck or else a very good secretary, right?

<<Re: Gifted Labels
O.k., here it is: you are at this moment reading a posting from a "gifted"
child. Taught myself to read at age 3, learned to write by age 4, labeled
"Gifted" by
the time I walked through the Kindergarten door. By the 6th grade I tested
at the 14th grade (2nd year college) level in all areas but math (I only hit
11th grade there).

Now, here I am (some years later) -- average. You know how new moms compare
their babies by saying "mine walked at 8 months" and "mine walked at 15
months?" but when they are 5 y.o. you can't tell who walked first? That's
me.
I read first, wrote first,
finished first, spelled better, computed better, comprehended better - and
now, I'm a regular Joe (well, Jane, anyway). I don't think you could ever
tell I was "gifted" in school.>>

Me, too....BFD, right????

<<My point (you knew there had to be one coming, eh?): IMO, Labels on our
kids are only useful for people who don't know them and need a way to "box"
them and "categorize" them. I know my children (and myself) very well. I
don't need to label them for anyone. In the end, school-years labels are
useless in real life.>>

Ahhh, but without labels, there'd be no "specialists" in "special
education"...no funding for those "specialists" and "special education".....I
really do think that's all there is to labels....just something for the
school people to use as a tool to get more funding. Ahhh, bureaucracy!!!
Glad we're not part of it any longer.

Sam

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/99 0:16:44 AM EST, DKidsnUs@... writes:

<< My dad (in his late 50's now and one of the most
intelligent guys I know) spells phonetically. No kidding. He is the
president
of a large corporation and writes/speaks fluently but stinks at spelling.
Hmmm. >>
My father has spent half his life in school, earning him 4 degrees in various
fields and he can't spell worth beans! I remember as a child (and teen)
having to constantly proof read anything written for my Dad! Coincidence??!!??
Lori n TX

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/99 0:17:10 AM EST, DKidsnUs@... writes:

<< Now, here I am (some years later) -- average. You know how new moms
compare
their babies by saying "mine walked at 8 months" and "mine walked at 15
months?" but when they are 5 y.o. you can't tell who walked first? That's
me.
I read first, wrote first,
finished first, spelled better, computed better, comprehended better - and
now, I'm a regular Joe (well, Jane, anyway). I don't think you could ever
tell I was "gifted" in school.
>>
Melissa, you summed it all up for me too! I can remember my grandma being so
excited when I was 5 years old and tested into the "gifted" program at
school. She told EVERYONE. I actually think in many ways, she felt it was
more her achievement than mine. I, like you, am a regular Jane today! So
much for labels. In fact, I as a 5 year old, I tested average in language
arts and "gifted" in math and sciences. However, by the time I graduated HS,
I was in honors Spanish IV, honors German III, honors English, and honors
World History. However, I barely scraped though Geometry and Chem. I - I
hated math and science classes! Go figure!
I do have to recall one fond memory though. Throughout, elementary
school, I had a dear woman named Mrs. Melton for my "gifted and talented"
class (as they called it back then!). I know this woman was an unschooler at
heart! For two glorious hours everyday, I had the privilege of being in her
classroom and I don't think I ever had an "assignment." There were many
learning opportunities -- animals (fish, birds, turtles, hamsters, mice,
rats), puzzles, books, logic games, art supplies, etc., and we were
encouraged to use any of them we wanted. At any given time, you could look
around our classroom and see close to a dozen different projects in progress
-- everyone working on their own interests. And she was much more a
facilitator than a teacher. I do not recall here ever standing before the
class teaching. She would walk around from project to project, observing and
encouraging. Even when we asked her questions, she seemed to never really
answer them for us. Instead, she would gather other students around and ask
questions such as, "What might be another way we could get such-and-such
result . . ." She was a truly wonderful educator, and most likely the
salvation of my ps education. What sweet memories I have of her!

Candice in OK (ok -- maybe I don't need an intro! You all probably already
know more than you would like :)

Lisa Fuller

<<Ahhh, but without labels, there'd be no "specialists" in "special
education"...no funding for those "specialists" and "special education".....I
really do think that's all there is to labels....just something for the
school people to use as a tool to get more funding. Ahhh, bureaucracy!!!>>

I just had to respond to this as someone involved in special education and
disability resources. Labeling also gives us a common ground in which to begin
discussing an issue. Without labels, how could we begin to look at solutions for
a situation? Even unschooling is a label and it allows us to see were we have
common grounds. A label like gifted, or spirited, or mentally retarded, or
physically disabled gives us a starting point in how to assess the persons needs
and how to assist that person. Assessment and assistance are also necessary evils
and we are all continually assessing each other. Every time you look at your
child and say, "wow, she can do that", or "why is my child not doing this yet?"
you are assessing. Specialists and special education have just institutionalized
it and made it obvious. It is different, though, to be opposed to the
institutionalization of something than to the labeling of something. I am opposed
to the way special education is run in our ps system, and even how labeling has
effected the government subsidy programs, but I am not against labeling in
general and find it to be quite useful in most circumstances.

Labeling is a double-edged sword, but there is no way of getting around it, it is
part of everyone's life whether or not they are aware of it.

Sam926@... wrote:

> From: Sam926@...
>
> In a message dated 08/14/1999 1:16:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> DKidsnUs@... writes:
>
> << Hello all! I've been lurking too much and not spouting off enough (tee
> hee)!>>
>
> Boy, Melissa! I'm sure glad you came out of lurk mode!!
>
> (snip)
>
> << I've never heard of "Calvert Script" and think I
> would
> laugh at the guy who insisted my kid used it.>>
>
> I didn't exactly laugh!!!! Of course, that was then....now I find it
> hilarious!!! And stupid!!
>
> (snip)
>
> <<Although, I suppose everyone has to have a "signature" for security reasons
> on checks
> and the like, right?>>
>
> Actually, can't you just have an "X" for your legal sig????
>
> <). I am a big proponent of learning to spell, not necessarily of
> learning cursive. My dad (in his late 50's now and one of the most
> intelligent guys I know) spells phonetically. No kidding. He is the
> president of a large corporation and writes/speaks fluently but stinks at
> spelling.
> Hmmm.>>
>
> Me, too...but the funny thing is, I don't know WHY I can spell ... I've just
> always been able to remember how a word's supposed to be....phonics isn't
> it...I didn't realize how prone to exceptions the english language is until I
> tried to teach my dd phonics!!! As to your Dad....he probably has a computer
> with SpellCheck or else a very good secretary, right?
>
> <<Re: Gifted Labels
> O.k., here it is: you are at this moment reading a posting from a "gifted"
> child. Taught myself to read at age 3, learned to write by age 4, labeled
> "Gifted" by
> the time I walked through the Kindergarten door. By the 6th grade I tested
> at the 14th grade (2nd year college) level in all areas but math (I only hit
> 11th grade there).
>
> Now, here I am (some years later) -- average. You know how new moms compare
> their babies by saying "mine walked at 8 months" and "mine walked at 15
> months?" but when they are 5 y.o. you can't tell who walked first? That's
> me.
> I read first, wrote first,
> finished first, spelled better, computed better, comprehended better - and
> now, I'm a regular Joe (well, Jane, anyway). I don't think you could ever
> tell I was "gifted" in school.>>
>
> Me, too....BFD, right????
>
> <<My point (you knew there had to be one coming, eh?): IMO, Labels on our
> kids are only useful for people who don't know them and need a way to "box"
> them and "categorize" them. I know my children (and myself) very well. I
> don't need to label them for anyone. In the end, school-years labels are
> useless in real life.>>
>
> Ahhh, but without labels, there'd be no "specialists" in "special
> education"...no funding for those "specialists" and "special education".....I
> really do think that's all there is to labels....just something for the
> school people to use as a tool to get more funding. Ahhh, bureaucracy!!!
> Glad we're not part of it any longer.
>
> Sam
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: home to the world's liveliest email communities.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

Lisa, You make a really important point here. Thank you for offering this
perspective. Meybe we could look at labels as a type of tool to help us
cope with another person's (usually a child in this discussion) 'situation'.
Most of the negative on labels comments seem to refer to cases where the
tool is used incorrectly, the tool is not 'put away' after its use is
finished, and/or the person using the 'tool' can't seem to remember that
there is a person to deal with, not just a label.
Just my $.02
Susan

>From: Lisa Fuller <eifuller@...>
>
><<Ahhh, but without labels, there'd be no "specialists" in "special
>education"...no funding for those "specialists" and "special
education".....I
>really do think that's all there is to labels....just something for the
>school people to use as a tool to get more funding. Ahhh, bureaucracy!!!>>
>
>I just had to respond to this as someone involved in special education and
>disability resources. Labeling also gives us a common ground in which to
begin
>discussing an issue. Without labels, how could we begin to look at
solutions for
>a situation? Even unschooling is a label and it allows us to see were we
have
>common grounds. A label like gifted, or spirited, or mentally retarded, or
>physically disabled gives us a starting point in how to assess the persons
needs
>and how to assist that person. Assessment and assistance are also necessary
evils
>and we are all continually assessing each other. Every time you look at
your
>child and say, "wow, she can do that", or "why is my child not doing this
yet?"
>you are assessing. Specialists and special education have just
institutionalized
>it and made it obvious. It is different, though, to be opposed to the
>institutionalization of something than to the labeling of something. I am
opposed
>to the way special education is run in our ps system, and even how labeling
has
>effected the government subsidy programs, but I am not against labeling in
>general and find it to be quite useful in most circumstances.
>
>Labeling is a double-edged sword, but there is no way of getting around it,
it is
>part of everyone's life whether or not they are aware of it.
>
>Sam926@... wrote:
>
>> From: Sam926@...
>>
>> In a message dated 08/14/1999 1:16:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> DKidsnUs@... writes:
>>
>> << Hello all! I've been lurking too much and not spouting off enough (tee
>> hee)!>>
>>
>> Boy, Melissa! I'm sure glad you came out of lurk mode!!
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> << I've never heard of "Calvert Script" and think I
>> would
>> laugh at the guy who insisted my kid used it.>>
>>
>> I didn't exactly laugh!!!! Of course, that was then....now I find it
>> hilarious!!! And stupid!!
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> <<Although, I suppose everyone has to have a "signature" for security
reasons
>> on checks
>> and the like, right?>>
>>
>> Actually, can't you just have an "X" for your legal sig????
>>
>> <). I am a big proponent of learning to spell, not necessarily of
>> learning cursive. My dad (in his late 50's now and one of the most
>> intelligent guys I know) spells phonetically. No kidding. He is the
>> president of a large corporation and writes/speaks fluently but stinks
at
>> spelling.
>> Hmmm.>>
>>
>> Me, too...but the funny thing is, I don't know WHY I can spell ... I've
just
>> always been able to remember how a word's supposed to be....phonics isn't
>> it...I didn't realize how prone to exceptions the english language is
until I
>> tried to teach my dd phonics!!! As to your Dad....he probably has a
computer
>> with SpellCheck or else a very good secretary, right?
>>
>> <<Re: Gifted Labels
>> O.k., here it is: you are at this moment reading a posting from a
"gifted"
>> child. Taught myself to read at age 3, learned to write by age 4,
labeled
>> "Gifted" by
>> the time I walked through the Kindergarten door. By the 6th grade I
tested
>> at the 14th grade (2nd year college) level in all areas but math (I only
hit
>> 11th grade there).
>>
>> Now, here I am (some years later) -- average. You know how new moms
compare
>> their babies by saying "mine walked at 8 months" and "mine walked at 15
>> months?" but when they are 5 y.o. you can't tell who walked first?
That's
>> me.
>> I read first, wrote first,
>> finished first, spelled better, computed better, comprehended better -
and
>> now, I'm a regular Joe (well, Jane, anyway). I don't think you could
ever
>> tell I was "gifted" in school.>>
>>
>> Me, too....BFD, right????
>>
>> <<My point (you knew there had to be one coming, eh?): IMO, Labels on our
>> kids are only useful for people who don't know them and need a way to
"box"
>> them and "categorize" them. I know my children (and myself) very well. I
>> don't need to label them for anyone. In the end, school-years labels are
>> useless in real life.>>
>>
>> Ahhh, but without labels, there'd be no "specialists" in "special
>> education"...no funding for those "specialists" and "special
education".....I
>> really do think that's all there is to labels....just something for the
>> school people to use as a tool to get more funding. Ahhh, bureaucracy!!!
>> Glad we're not part of it any longer.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>>
>> ONElist: home to the world's liveliest email communities.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check it out!
>> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>Congrats to our GROW TO GIVE winners, ZENtertainment & ROTInews!
>http://www.onelist.com
>Check out ONElist's latest program, FRIENDS & FAMILY. See homepage.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Check it out!
>http://www.unschooling.com
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 08/16/1999 7:32:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fuerst@... writes:

<< Most of the negative on labels comments seem to refer to cases where the
tool is used incorrectly, the tool is not 'put away' after its use is
finished, and/or the person using the 'tool' can't seem to remember that
there is a person to deal with, not just a label. >>

I admit that I haven't had direct experience with people labeling either me
or my kids, but I have friends who have gone through this ordeal. My friends
son was labeled ADD when all he was was an active little boy...thank God she
didn't listen to the "experts"! Another friend's son was labeled early,
proved the labeling wrong, but was forced to live with that label on his
record for many years. And, just from observing, I find that WAY too many
"experts" are WAY too willing to slap a label on someone just because it's
the current "thing to do".

That's MY .02!
Sam

Joel Hawthorne

And for an additional $ .02.....labels also have to do with power and the ways
in which those with power maintain it. Labels are used to control people and how
people think about different issues. It is a multi-edged sword. Who gets to
determine when the label has been used "incorrectly". I am most suspicious of
labels created by "professionals" which imo more often than not are used to
protect the turf of the professionals and only coincidentally communicating what
might or might not be useful information.

The guild lives! As a union activist I have such mixed feelings and thoughts on
the specialization of language that serves both to protect "jobs" and to keep
the "masses" mystified.

The fact that someone has mastered the complicated language of, for example
medicine, law, or education ( and perhaps even understanding the underlying
concepts which that language purports to represent) does not make them better
suited to make decisions for me. However most people seem quite confused about
this. They repeatedly allow "credentialed" individuals to make decisions for them
rather than using these folks for the specialized knowledge they might have.

And it all returns to issues of power. Thems thats gots it and thems that don't.

I lied it was $.05 worth.

From: Sam926@...

> In a message dated 08/16/1999 7:32:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> fuerst@... writes:
>
> << Most of the negative on labels comments seem to refer to cases where the
> tool is used incorrectly, the tool is not 'put away' after its use is
> finished, and/or the person using the 'tool' can't seem to remember that
> there is a person to deal with, not just a label. >>
>
> I admit that I haven't had direct experience with people labeling either me
> or my kids, but I have friends who have gone through this ordeal. My friends
> son was labeled ADD when all he was was an active little boy...thank God she
> didn't listen to the "experts"! Another friend's son was labeled early,
> proved the labeling wrong, but was forced to live with that label on his
> record for many years. And, just from observing, I find that WAY too many
> "experts" are WAY too willing to slap a label on someone just because it's
> the current "thing to do".
>
> That's MY .02!
> Sam

best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

At 11:32 AM 8/14/99 EDT, you wrote:
>From: RRAINENJ@...
>
>In a message dated 8/14/99 0:16:44 AM EST, DKidsnUs@... writes:
>
><< My dad (in his late 50's now and one of the most
> intelligent guys I know) spells phonetically. No kidding. He is the
> president
> of a large corporation and writes/speaks fluently but stinks at spelling.
> Hmmm. >>
>My father has spent half his life in school, earning him 4 degrees in
various
>fields and he can't spell worth beans! I remember as a child (and teen)
>having to constantly proof read anything written for my Dad!
Coincidence??!!??
>Lori n TX


My dad is the same way. He runs a large Engineering office and can't spell
worth a damn. I used to work there as an administrative assistant, and I
know exactly what his work looks like when it gets to his secretary to
proof and send, and what his interoffice scribbled notes look like. Not
only is his spelling atrocious, but you need to be fluent in sanskrit to
decipher his handwriting. This is a man who loves books and the printed
word, reads a LOT,and is very well educated. This does not translate into
writing or language skills. He is a people person, and that is where he
excells, in business anyhow.

Nanci K. in Idaho