guns
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/4/01 6:50:28 PM, dawn@... writes:
<< How do you play with a gun
pistol tricks (cousins of rope tricks, and on back to the wild west shows, a
tradition going back 150 years or so)
target shooting (skeet, for one thing, but stationery targets)
Often when gun and anti-gun discussions get going it ends up breaking out
somewhat by region of the country. I live in a part of the country in which
guns are common. My dad always had a rifle in the back of his pickup and he
was a totally peaceful, gentle guy. But he grew up in southern New Mexico
and West Texas in the days when rattle snakes and coyotes were not at all
rarities. And he was a hunter, and we had elk or venison almost every year.
James Bond is shocking (or exciting, rather, I guess) in England because guns
are SO illegal and unacceptable there, and here's this fantasy story about a
crime-fighting guy so highly ranked that he can Own A Gun. In the U.S. we
don't notice the gun part--we just like the car and the gadgetry.
Different parts of the U.S. are different.
I don't personally own a gun, nor do I want one. I hurt my dad's feelings a
lot (and still feel bad) by refusing his gift of a gun when he was selling
off his collection of military rifles (he had half a dozen, each very cool,
one WWI Russian rifle which I still remember looking at--had great hardware),
but on principle, I refused to have one.
That doesn't mean I don't think those who do want guns shouldn't be allowed
to have them.
Sandra
<< How do you play with a gun
> anyway? >>Wild West shows
pistol tricks (cousins of rope tricks, and on back to the wild west shows, a
tradition going back 150 years or so)
target shooting (skeet, for one thing, but stationery targets)
Often when gun and anti-gun discussions get going it ends up breaking out
somewhat by region of the country. I live in a part of the country in which
guns are common. My dad always had a rifle in the back of his pickup and he
was a totally peaceful, gentle guy. But he grew up in southern New Mexico
and West Texas in the days when rattle snakes and coyotes were not at all
rarities. And he was a hunter, and we had elk or venison almost every year.
James Bond is shocking (or exciting, rather, I guess) in England because guns
are SO illegal and unacceptable there, and here's this fantasy story about a
crime-fighting guy so highly ranked that he can Own A Gun. In the U.S. we
don't notice the gun part--we just like the car and the gadgetry.
Different parts of the U.S. are different.
I don't personally own a gun, nor do I want one. I hurt my dad's feelings a
lot (and still feel bad) by refusing his gift of a gun when he was selling
off his collection of military rifles (he had half a dozen, each very cool,
one WWI Russian rifle which I still remember looking at--had great hardware),
but on principle, I refused to have one.
That doesn't mean I don't think those who do want guns shouldn't be allowed
to have them.
Sandra
Tami Labig-Duquette
If other people want to have them(guns), then thats thier decision. I am
only saying I dont think MY children need to play with guns. When they are
older and decide they need or want one then that is up to them.
Tami
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
only saying I dont think MY children need to play with guns. When they are
older and decide they need or want one then that is up to them.
Tami
>From: SandraDodd@..._________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] guns
>Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:00:38 EST
>
>
>In a message dated 2/4/01 6:50:28 PM, dawn@... writes:
>
><< How do you play with a gun
> > anyway? >>
>
>Wild West shows
>pistol tricks (cousins of rope tricks, and on back to the wild west shows,
>a
>tradition going back 150 years or so)
>
>target shooting (skeet, for one thing, but stationery targets)
>
>Often when gun and anti-gun discussions get going it ends up breaking out
>somewhat by region of the country. I live in a part of the country in
>which
>guns are common. My dad always had a rifle in the back of his pickup and
>he
>was a totally peaceful, gentle guy. But he grew up in southern New Mexico
>and West Texas in the days when rattle snakes and coyotes were not at all
>rarities. And he was a hunter, and we had elk or venison almost every
>year.
>
>James Bond is shocking (or exciting, rather, I guess) in England because
>guns
>are SO illegal and unacceptable there, and here's this fantasy story about
>a
>crime-fighting guy so highly ranked that he can Own A Gun. In the U.S. we
>don't notice the gun part--we just like the car and the gadgetry.
>
>Different parts of the U.S. are different.
>
>I don't personally own a gun, nor do I want one. I hurt my dad's feelings
>a
>lot (and still feel bad) by refusing his gift of a gun when he was selling
>off his collection of military rifles (he had half a dozen, each very cool,
>one WWI Russian rifle which I still remember looking at--had great
>hardware),
>but on principle, I refused to have one.
>
>That doesn't mean I don't think those who do want guns shouldn't be allowed
>to have them.
>
>Sandra
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
[email protected]
I think the point that was being made was that it's possible to cause someone
to want something by not letting them even see or touch one. A fascination
or a desire can develop which won't develop if the item isn't made powerful
by its singling out.
My kids are at an age that some kids start hunting or waning guns, and
neither has any special gun interest at all. My husband has a rifle that
belonged to a friend of ours who died in the late 1970's. It has never been
loaded or fired in all those years (nor cleaned, so it better NOT be...). I
have friends and relatives who do own guns, and so my kids have occasional
cause to see a gun. We had a friend who's a police officer and another who
is a sheriff's deputy. Both are sweet and pacificist men, and I knew both
before they trained for law enforcement.
A video game with a gun in it would not have caused nor prevented any of the
above.
Sandra
to want something by not letting them even see or touch one. A fascination
or a desire can develop which won't develop if the item isn't made powerful
by its singling out.
My kids are at an age that some kids start hunting or waning guns, and
neither has any special gun interest at all. My husband has a rifle that
belonged to a friend of ours who died in the late 1970's. It has never been
loaded or fired in all those years (nor cleaned, so it better NOT be...). I
have friends and relatives who do own guns, and so my kids have occasional
cause to see a gun. We had a friend who's a police officer and another who
is a sheriff's deputy. Both are sweet and pacificist men, and I knew both
before they trained for law enforcement.
A video game with a gun in it would not have caused nor prevented any of the
above.
Sandra
Kerry Kibort
I agree with Tami that my kids dont NEED to play with
guns. Although, we do allow them. At first, we didnt
allow any guns of any sort. Then , everywhere we went
it seemed there were guns of some kind and my son
would go nuts to hold, touch, play with them. I saw
very clearly that taking the guns away only made him
want them more, so we changed our policy. He had a
couple toy water guns, and other than that has no
interest in them. I kept thinking that he'd find a
real one somewhere and be so interested in it he'd end
up shooting himself. Now, after much discussion on the
gun issue, he knows the dangers and what to do if he
ever finds a gun. He also has his fix with a couple of
brightly colored water pistols.
Kerry
guns. Although, we do allow them. At first, we didnt
allow any guns of any sort. Then , everywhere we went
it seemed there were guns of some kind and my son
would go nuts to hold, touch, play with them. I saw
very clearly that taking the guns away only made him
want them more, so we changed our policy. He had a
couple toy water guns, and other than that has no
interest in them. I kept thinking that he'd find a
real one somewhere and be so interested in it he'd end
up shooting himself. Now, after much discussion on the
gun issue, he knows the dangers and what to do if he
ever finds a gun. He also has his fix with a couple of
brightly colored water pistols.
Kerry
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/4/01 6:01:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< Often when gun and anti-gun discussions get going it ends up breaking out
somewhat by region of the country. I live in a part of the country in which
guns are common. My dad always had a rifle in the back of his pickup and he
was a totally peaceful, gentle guy. But he grew up in southern New Mexico
and West Texas in the days when rattle snakes and coyotes were not at all
rarities. And he was a hunter, and we had elk or venison almost every year.
in their private homes. For me a gun was a tool and the idea of having one
in the house was shocking, "Why would you want one there?"
I considered having one when we lived in an isolated area but quickly decided
that the risk of having one with kids on the house FAR outweighed the risk of
crime.
I don't buy toy guns but intentionally give no reaction to the sight of
seeing the kids play with one or pretend they are doing so. The result?
They're just another toy and they are barely interested in them. Usually, if
you ignore something it goes away.
When my dd was old enough to play alone at other's homes I role played a bit
and she knows if someone shows a gun (even if she thinks it might be real)
she will say, "Oh, I forgot, I was supposed to be home 10 minutes ago." and
then leave.
Kris
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< Often when gun and anti-gun discussions get going it ends up breaking out
somewhat by region of the country. I live in a part of the country in which
guns are common. My dad always had a rifle in the back of his pickup and he
was a totally peaceful, gentle guy. But he grew up in southern New Mexico
and West Texas in the days when rattle snakes and coyotes were not at all
rarities. And he was a hunter, and we had elk or venison almost every year.
>>Good observation. My grandfather and uncle were gunsmiths but never had one
in their private homes. For me a gun was a tool and the idea of having one
in the house was shocking, "Why would you want one there?"
I considered having one when we lived in an isolated area but quickly decided
that the risk of having one with kids on the house FAR outweighed the risk of
crime.
I don't buy toy guns but intentionally give no reaction to the sight of
seeing the kids play with one or pretend they are doing so. The result?
They're just another toy and they are barely interested in them. Usually, if
you ignore something it goes away.
When my dd was old enough to play alone at other's homes I role played a bit
and she knows if someone shows a gun (even if she thinks it might be real)
she will say, "Oh, I forgot, I was supposed to be home 10 minutes ago." and
then leave.
Kris
[email protected]
Hi, I was raised in a home that had a few guns hanging on the wall, but they
were not functional. They were there for sentimental reasons and were old. My
Dad did not hunt or own a gun that worked but as a kid he did hunt. I loved
guns as a kid. Not sure why. I had a cool pop gun and at 5 talked my Mom into
letting me have a cowboy suit, complete with holster and guns. Her main
concern was that the pants zipped up the front. ( I remember her talking to
her friends about whether it would be improper to let me own such a pair of
pants) My, haven't times changed. My brothers both had BB guns but by the
time I was old enough to have one I had lost my gun interest and replaced it
with an interest in animals. I was upset that anyone would hunt them. ( both
my brothers lost their interests in guns too) My husband grew up with hunting
being a big part of his life. His family depended on his Father's ability to
hunt in the winter months when he was laid off work. All the boy's hunted and
it was certainly a different kind of life than the one I was raised in. It
was liked they lived in a different time period! When our oldest son became
fascinated with guns we let him have toy guns. And then when he was 11 he got
a BB gun. My husband, who seldom has time to hunt now, was looking forward to
hunting with the oldest someday. He spent a lot time teaching the kids gun
safety, they all like to target practice with Dad. Then a funny thing
happened to the oldest boy called Animal Planet. He loves the shows on that
channel. And now he loves animals and has no desire to hunt them. My husband
was very disappointed. Second son never had an interest in guns or hunting.
And the girls do not either. So you never know how things will turn out. I
personally do not like guns and now the only guns we have in the house are
black powder which my husband uses to hunt deer, if he has time. So I guess
you never know how it is going to turn out.
peace and grace
Candy
were not functional. They were there for sentimental reasons and were old. My
Dad did not hunt or own a gun that worked but as a kid he did hunt. I loved
guns as a kid. Not sure why. I had a cool pop gun and at 5 talked my Mom into
letting me have a cowboy suit, complete with holster and guns. Her main
concern was that the pants zipped up the front. ( I remember her talking to
her friends about whether it would be improper to let me own such a pair of
pants) My, haven't times changed. My brothers both had BB guns but by the
time I was old enough to have one I had lost my gun interest and replaced it
with an interest in animals. I was upset that anyone would hunt them. ( both
my brothers lost their interests in guns too) My husband grew up with hunting
being a big part of his life. His family depended on his Father's ability to
hunt in the winter months when he was laid off work. All the boy's hunted and
it was certainly a different kind of life than the one I was raised in. It
was liked they lived in a different time period! When our oldest son became
fascinated with guns we let him have toy guns. And then when he was 11 he got
a BB gun. My husband, who seldom has time to hunt now, was looking forward to
hunting with the oldest someday. He spent a lot time teaching the kids gun
safety, they all like to target practice with Dad. Then a funny thing
happened to the oldest boy called Animal Planet. He loves the shows on that
channel. And now he loves animals and has no desire to hunt them. My husband
was very disappointed. Second son never had an interest in guns or hunting.
And the girls do not either. So you never know how things will turn out. I
personally do not like guns and now the only guns we have in the house are
black powder which my husband uses to hunt deer, if he has time. So I guess
you never know how it is going to turn out.
peace and grace
Candy
Bobbie
My dad (also being from here and Texas) was the same
way. He owned a rifle or two and had a really old cool
looking pistol, was really really into the "old west"
and "cowboy shows" as my son called them, and my son
the first time he saw him watching one was shocked cuz
grampa was such a kind gentle man he would never think
that he enjoyed watching shows where people got shot.
The way I resolved that was to explain that things
were much different back then "cowboy dayz", and the
same way cops have to carry guns now, everyone back
then had thier own guns. It's funny that you mentioned
coyotes and rattlers cuz i also explained that to him,
as did my dad. If you were out in the desert and you
came upon one you might need to defend yourself. But
he also understands that that would be in a complete
life or death defend yourself situation that you would
shoot any animal, or if you were stranded somewhere
and needed food. Not hunting for sport. We live near a
store where we can buy meat from animals that have
already been killed, there is no reason for us to go
shoot some more. My dad got rid of his guns when my
son was born and we lived with them for awhile. He
also stopped hunting. He looked at it through his
grandson's eyes and couldn't see a way to explain to
him why he would have a gun in the house or why he
would go and shoot any of the animals that I was
teaching him to cherish when our freezer already had
meat in it. But I agree that it is affected alot by
where you're from. My family are very much "hicks" (as
I affectionately call us), my dad was a "good ol boy"
and was guns and hunting was just passed down to him
as a normal part of life, (but he also remembered that
the first time he saw an animal shot when he was
little it was very hard for him to accept that it was
ok to do and said it changed him quite a bit.) and
wild west shtuff will always be around us. And I'm
glad. It reminds me of my darling gentle sweet dad who
passed away less than a year ago. But we don't LIVE in
the wild west anymore.
Cowboyz did alot of other cool things too, besides
shooting. My son loves to play cowboy and never does
it involve a gun.
But like I said to each his own. I agree that people
who do like them should be allowed to have them, but I
also believe it should be much more regulated, so not
just any ol violence crazed person can get a gun out
of the paper for "target practice" that is basically
training them in the art of taking another life. Just
my humble opinion, though.
-Bobbie
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
way. He owned a rifle or two and had a really old cool
looking pistol, was really really into the "old west"
and "cowboy shows" as my son called them, and my son
the first time he saw him watching one was shocked cuz
grampa was such a kind gentle man he would never think
that he enjoyed watching shows where people got shot.
The way I resolved that was to explain that things
were much different back then "cowboy dayz", and the
same way cops have to carry guns now, everyone back
then had thier own guns. It's funny that you mentioned
coyotes and rattlers cuz i also explained that to him,
as did my dad. If you were out in the desert and you
came upon one you might need to defend yourself. But
he also understands that that would be in a complete
life or death defend yourself situation that you would
shoot any animal, or if you were stranded somewhere
and needed food. Not hunting for sport. We live near a
store where we can buy meat from animals that have
already been killed, there is no reason for us to go
shoot some more. My dad got rid of his guns when my
son was born and we lived with them for awhile. He
also stopped hunting. He looked at it through his
grandson's eyes and couldn't see a way to explain to
him why he would have a gun in the house or why he
would go and shoot any of the animals that I was
teaching him to cherish when our freezer already had
meat in it. But I agree that it is affected alot by
where you're from. My family are very much "hicks" (as
I affectionately call us), my dad was a "good ol boy"
and was guns and hunting was just passed down to him
as a normal part of life, (but he also remembered that
the first time he saw an animal shot when he was
little it was very hard for him to accept that it was
ok to do and said it changed him quite a bit.) and
wild west shtuff will always be around us. And I'm
glad. It reminds me of my darling gentle sweet dad who
passed away less than a year ago. But we don't LIVE in
the wild west anymore.
Cowboyz did alot of other cool things too, besides
shooting. My son loves to play cowboy and never does
it involve a gun.
But like I said to each his own. I agree that people
who do like them should be allowed to have them, but I
also believe it should be much more regulated, so not
just any ol violence crazed person can get a gun out
of the paper for "target practice" that is basically
training them in the art of taking another life. Just
my humble opinion, though.
-Bobbie
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>__________________________________________________
> In a message dated 2/4/01 6:50:28 PM, dawn@...
> writes:
>
> << How do you play with a gun
> > anyway? >>
>
> Wild West shows
> pistol tricks (cousins of rope tricks, and on back
> to the wild west shows, a
> tradition going back 150 years or so)
>
> target shooting (skeet, for one thing, but
> stationery targets)
>
> Often when gun and anti-gun discussions get going it
> ends up breaking out
> somewhat by region of the country. I live in a part
> of the country in which
> guns are common. My dad always had a rifle in the
> back of his pickup and he
> was a totally peaceful, gentle guy. But he grew up
> in southern New Mexico
> and West Texas in the days when rattle snakes and
> coyotes were not at all
> rarities. And he was a hunter, and we had elk or
> venison almost every year.
>
> James Bond is shocking (or exciting, rather, I
> guess) in England because guns
> are SO illegal and unacceptable there, and here's
> this fantasy story about a
> crime-fighting guy so highly ranked that he can Own
> A Gun. In the U.S. we
> don't notice the gun part--we just like the car and
> the gadgetry.
>
> Different parts of the U.S. are different.
>
> I don't personally own a gun, nor do I want one. I
> hurt my dad's feelings a
> lot (and still feel bad) by refusing his gift of a
> gun when he was selling
> off his collection of military rifles (he had half a
> dozen, each very cool,
> one WWI Russian rifle which I still remember looking
> at--had great hardware),
> but on principle, I refused to have one.
>
> That doesn't mean I don't think those who do want
> guns shouldn't be allowed
> to have them.
>
> Sandra
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Bobbie
I do agree that it makes it more desirable by being
fanatical about not letting them see one, etc. I've
experienced that before with ds with other things.
I try not to be that way about guns, cuz I don't want
to make it more desirable to him, but as it is he
decides on his own when some kid somewhere wants to
play like thier shooting each other, he either just
changes the game, goes elsewhere, or comes and asks me
what he should do, cuz he doesn't want to play guns
and he knows by now (through hearing/seeing my
distaste for violence myself) that it is something
that shouldn't really be FUN. But sometimes he does
see some violent game (I'm talking fighting now, not
shooting...) and want to get in on it. My natural
inclinations is "AAAGGGHH!!! no no no!!!" But thanks
to a very logical boyfriend who reminds me of that
whole forbidden fruit thing and how he'll just want it
and try to sneak to do it eventually if I be a freak
about it, then sometimes I'll indulge him and come to
find out he never asks again. It's like he has his own
distaste for violence when it comes down to it. I'm
glad for that.
It's hard to find a balance, instead of one extreme or
the other. For example my cousin's son only almost
ONLY toy guns. ONLY plays violent, graphicly gory
games, and everything else seems boring to him. He's a
nice kid, other than he only wants to pretend he's
shooting you. He's alot older than Tori and I don't
remember him being like that when he was younger, but
ALL restrictions on anything like that were removed to
not make it more fascinating and it's a "phase" he has
not gotten over yet. But I know kids who have far TOO
MANY restrictions and are so happy to go over to
someone else's house so they can play something "fun"
without thier parents around.
ah to be a discerning parent. :)
-Bobbie
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
fanatical about not letting them see one, etc. I've
experienced that before with ds with other things.
I try not to be that way about guns, cuz I don't want
to make it more desirable to him, but as it is he
decides on his own when some kid somewhere wants to
play like thier shooting each other, he either just
changes the game, goes elsewhere, or comes and asks me
what he should do, cuz he doesn't want to play guns
and he knows by now (through hearing/seeing my
distaste for violence myself) that it is something
that shouldn't really be FUN. But sometimes he does
see some violent game (I'm talking fighting now, not
shooting...) and want to get in on it. My natural
inclinations is "AAAGGGHH!!! no no no!!!" But thanks
to a very logical boyfriend who reminds me of that
whole forbidden fruit thing and how he'll just want it
and try to sneak to do it eventually if I be a freak
about it, then sometimes I'll indulge him and come to
find out he never asks again. It's like he has his own
distaste for violence when it comes down to it. I'm
glad for that.
It's hard to find a balance, instead of one extreme or
the other. For example my cousin's son only almost
ONLY toy guns. ONLY plays violent, graphicly gory
games, and everything else seems boring to him. He's a
nice kid, other than he only wants to pretend he's
shooting you. He's alot older than Tori and I don't
remember him being like that when he was younger, but
ALL restrictions on anything like that were removed to
not make it more fascinating and it's a "phase" he has
not gotten over yet. But I know kids who have far TOO
MANY restrictions and are so happy to go over to
someone else's house so they can play something "fun"
without thier parents around.
ah to be a discerning parent. :)
-Bobbie
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
> I think the point that was being made was that it's__________________________________________________
> possible to cause someone
> to want something by not letting them even see or
> touch one. A fascination
> or a desire can develop which won't develop if the
> item isn't made powerful
> by its singling out.
>
> My kids are at an age that some kids start hunting
> or waning guns, and
> neither has any special gun interest at all. My
> husband has a rifle that
> belonged to a friend of ours who died in the late
> 1970's. It has never been
> loaded or fired in all those years (nor cleaned, so
> it better NOT be...). I
> have friends and relatives who do own guns, and so
> my kids have occasional
> cause to see a gun. We had a friend who's a police
> officer and another who
> is a sheriff's deputy. Both are sweet and
> pacificist men, and I knew both
> before they trained for law enforcement.
>
> A video game with a gun in it would not have caused
> nor prevented any of the
> above.
>
> Sandra
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Bobbie
I don't mind water guns if they aren't made to look
like these automatic REAL guns and therefore when he
squirts/shoots them it is the same as him using his
finger to pretend he's shooting someone for whatever
reason, except they get wet, too. those brightly
colored supersoaker things are pretty cool sometimes,
and he doesn't really think of them as "guns", as just
a way to squirt someone. Cool thing is when he plays
with them, thanks to my darling boyfriend, again, now
he likes to pretend he's a firefighter and the people
are flames.
oh yeah, I also wanted to add that I think it's
important to teach them not to be all critical of
other kids who are allowed to play guns. I tell them
that that is thier mommy's decision and it's none of
our business, and they shouldn't be embarrassing and
rude by saying "that's bad." or something like that.
I'd rather them say "*I* don't want to play that." or
"*I'm* not allowed to play that, let's play something
else."
-Bobbie
--- Kerry Kibort <kkibort@...> wrote:
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
like these automatic REAL guns and therefore when he
squirts/shoots them it is the same as him using his
finger to pretend he's shooting someone for whatever
reason, except they get wet, too. those brightly
colored supersoaker things are pretty cool sometimes,
and he doesn't really think of them as "guns", as just
a way to squirt someone. Cool thing is when he plays
with them, thanks to my darling boyfriend, again, now
he likes to pretend he's a firefighter and the people
are flames.
oh yeah, I also wanted to add that I think it's
important to teach them not to be all critical of
other kids who are allowed to play guns. I tell them
that that is thier mommy's decision and it's none of
our business, and they shouldn't be embarrassing and
rude by saying "that's bad." or something like that.
I'd rather them say "*I* don't want to play that." or
"*I'm* not allowed to play that, let's play something
else."
-Bobbie
--- Kerry Kibort <kkibort@...> wrote:
> I agree with Tami that my kids dont NEED to play__________________________________________________
> with
> guns. Although, we do allow them. At first, we didnt
> allow any guns of any sort. Then , everywhere we
> went
> it seemed there were guns of some kind and my son
> would go nuts to hold, touch, play with them. I saw
> very clearly that taking the guns away only made him
> want them more, so we changed our policy. He had a
> couple toy water guns, and other than that has no
> interest in them. I kept thinking that he'd find a
> real one somewhere and be so interested in it he'd
> end
> up shooting himself. Now, after much discussion on
> the
> gun issue, he knows the dangers and what to do if he
> ever finds a gun. He also has his fix with a couple
> of
> brightly colored water pistols.
> Kerry
>
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Bobbie
--- louisaem@... wrote:
I like it.
__________________________________________________
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> and she knows if someone shows a gun (even if she:) cute.
> thinks it might be real)
> she will say, "Oh, I forgot, I was supposed to be
> home 10 minutes ago." and
> then leave.
>
> Kris
>
I like it.
__________________________________________________
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Bobbie
hm. see, i actualy LIKE hearing things like this. i
guess I must thrive on diversity. It would be just a
bit tooo wierd if everyone agreed here.
And also i would like to say everyone has been so
respectful and non-defensive on this topic, even
though this could very easily be a very sensitive and
volatile subject. Thanks for keeping it nice so far.
:)
-Bobbie
--- discovery6@... wrote:
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guess I must thrive on diversity. It would be just a
bit tooo wierd if everyone agreed here.
And also i would like to say everyone has been so
respectful and non-defensive on this topic, even
though this could very easily be a very sensitive and
volatile subject. Thanks for keeping it nice so far.
:)
-Bobbie
--- discovery6@... wrote:
> Hi, I was raised in a home that had a few guns__________________________________________________
> hanging on the wall, but they
> were not functional. They were there for sentimental
> reasons and were old. My
> Dad did not hunt or own a gun that worked but as a
> kid he did hunt. I loved
> guns as a kid. Not sure why. I had a cool pop gun
> and at 5 talked my Mom into
> letting me have a cowboy suit, complete with holster
> and guns. Her main
> concern was that the pants zipped up the front. ( I
> remember her talking to
> her friends about whether it would be improper to
> let me own such a pair of
> pants) My, haven't times changed. My brothers both
> had BB guns but by the
> time I was old enough to have one I had lost my gun
> interest and replaced it
> with an interest in animals. I was upset that anyone
> would hunt them. ( both
> my brothers lost their interests in guns too) My
> husband grew up with hunting
> being a big part of his life. His family depended on
> his Father's ability to
> hunt in the winter months when he was laid off work.
> All the boy's hunted and
> it was certainly a different kind of life than the
> one I was raised in. It
> was liked they lived in a different time period!
> When our oldest son became
> fascinated with guns we let him have toy guns. And
> then when he was 11 he got
> a BB gun. My husband, who seldom has time to hunt
> now, was looking forward to
> hunting with the oldest someday. He spent a lot time
> teaching the kids gun
> safety, they all like to target practice with Dad.
> Then a funny thing
> happened to the oldest boy called Animal Planet. He
> loves the shows on that
> channel. And now he loves animals and has no desire
> to hunt them. My husband
> was very disappointed. Second son never had an
> interest in guns or hunting.
> And the girls do not either. So you never know how
> things will turn out. I
> personally do not like guns and now the only guns we
> have in the house are
> black powder which my husband uses to hunt deer, if
> he has time. So I guess
> you never know how it is going to turn out.
> peace and grace
> Candy
>
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In a message dated 2/6/01 2:04:24 PM, insomniaaks@... writes:
<< > and she knows if someone shows a gun (even if she
guns than lie.
In such a case, I would recommend for my kids say "I don't want to be around
guns, so I'm going home," or just "I'm going home now." Dishonesty, even to
oneself, is a harm that goes soul deep and can affect those who've never had
a toy gon or a game with a picture of a gun.
Everyone has their top few priorities in life, and honesty is my big #1.
Sandra
<< > and she knows if someone shows a gun (even if she
> thinks it might be real)At the risk of criticism, I wish to say that I'd rather my kids play with
> she will say, "Oh, I forgot, I was supposed to be
> home 10 minutes ago." and
> then leave. >>
guns than lie.
In such a case, I would recommend for my kids say "I don't want to be around
guns, so I'm going home," or just "I'm going home now." Dishonesty, even to
oneself, is a harm that goes soul deep and can affect those who've never had
a toy gon or a game with a picture of a gun.
Everyone has their top few priorities in life, and honesty is my big #1.
Sandra
[email protected]
Ok, this is a lightweight story for you regarding guns and their uses and
misuses.
My partners family used to hunt all the time when living in Africa (for food
- not trophies) and so are very at ease with firearms. Being a squeamish
little city girl by comparison, they thought they would give me the chance to
be more comfortable with a gun by target practise.
We set the targets up, split into teams and shot away. My partner's mother
complaining loudly that the gun was useless and wouldn't fire straight. After
several such moans, we discovered the problem - she had the aiming eye shut
and the other one open.
Seems an ideal compromise between shooting and killing!
Caroline
misuses.
My partners family used to hunt all the time when living in Africa (for food
- not trophies) and so are very at ease with firearms. Being a squeamish
little city girl by comparison, they thought they would give me the chance to
be more comfortable with a gun by target practise.
We set the targets up, split into teams and shot away. My partner's mother
complaining loudly that the gun was useless and wouldn't fire straight. After
several such moans, we discovered the problem - she had the aiming eye shut
and the other one open.
Seems an ideal compromise between shooting and killing!
Caroline
Dennis/Laurie Brown
Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but mommy has
already told her she has to be home 10 minutes ago whenever she sees a gun, so
she's not lie-ing.
My .02 worth.
We put a very hearty emphasis on honesty in our
family, but there are times my children have permission (and even encouragement)
to use their parents as scape goats. This would fall into that
category.
(Not picking on Sandra or anyone else, just
weighing in with some of my opinion.)
Eiraul
----- Original Message -----From: SandraDodd@...Sent: February 06, 2001 1:37 PMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] guns
In a message dated 2/6/01 2:04:24 PM, insomniaaks@... writes:
<< > and she knows if someone shows a gun (even if she
> thinks it might be real)
> she will say, "Oh, I forgot, I was supposed to be
> home 10 minutes ago." and
> then leave. >>
At the risk of criticism, I wish to say that I'd rather my kids play with
guns than lie.
[email protected]
<< At the risk of criticism, I wish to say that I'd rather my kids play with
guns than lie. >>
No criticism here. I'm assuming that by the word "gun" in this statement you
mean a toy gun? I don't really care much if my kids play with toy guns. I
would even buy them one if they couldn't be gently persuaded to something
else. I just give it as little attention as possible which, so far, has had
the desired effect, they aren't interested in them.
<<In such a case, I would recommend for my kids say "I don't want to be
around
guns, so I'm going home," or just "I'm going home now." Dishonesty, even
to
oneself, is a harm that goes soul deep and can affect those who've never had
a toy gon or a game with a picture of a gun.>>
I agree on the damage that lying causes. This is the reason that until my dd
reached a point of reason she simply never went alone to a home that I wasn't
certain about. That means that I knew the parents VERY well, knew they had
no guns for one thing. Honesty is ALL situations was taught and modeled.
However, the actions and choice of words for this situation were carefully
thought out and considered. I also waited for a time of maturity when my dd
would be able to separate the honest person she is from a moment of crisis
that may call for lying. Yes, I do believe there are rare events which a
higher calling takes precedence.
Just yesterday my dd and I were discussing the "Black Market" and what it
means. I explained that it is generally used for illegal activity and greed.
I added that it has been used for good but rarely. From here we discussed
WWII and the Nazi occupation in Europe and how some folks used the BM to
obtain goods, food and medication to do good, like aiding Jews in hiding.
She was shocked to learn that I was in agreement with this kind of action.
From here we went discussed civil disobedience and lying for a greater good.
It was an opportunity for me to restate MY beliefs on this issue. Deciding
to take an action like this requires brutal honesty in self-examination
because the temptation to do this for selfish reasons is strong.
My two reasons for advising her to use this particular statement, worded the
way it is are:
1) To avoid any hesitation on her part. It can be hard for a kid to take a
stand and even though she is usually good at this, I don't want her to wait
even a few seconds before getting out of there.
2) To avoid the other kids from trying to stop her from leaving. I don't
want them to stand in her way or try to persuade her because they are afraid
shes going to "tell" or get them in trouble somehow.
So yes, I am sure that I want her to "lie" to get out of there and we have
discussed "why" in detail, more than once. I would rather she violate her
own conscience in a moment like this than risk death. I've also told her
that she can say or do ANYTHING if she is in a dangerous situation, ie; being
approached by someone whom she feels is threatening. A few months ago she
was on the sidewalk and a man pulled up next to her in a car and began to
talk to her. She was caught off guard and blurted, "Thats my mom calling!"
and ran away. Yes she could have just run but maybe she needed to say that
to get her feet moving. I was absolutely FINE with what she did.
Kris
guns than lie. >>
No criticism here. I'm assuming that by the word "gun" in this statement you
mean a toy gun? I don't really care much if my kids play with toy guns. I
would even buy them one if they couldn't be gently persuaded to something
else. I just give it as little attention as possible which, so far, has had
the desired effect, they aren't interested in them.
<<In such a case, I would recommend for my kids say "I don't want to be
around
guns, so I'm going home," or just "I'm going home now." Dishonesty, even
to
oneself, is a harm that goes soul deep and can affect those who've never had
a toy gon or a game with a picture of a gun.>>
I agree on the damage that lying causes. This is the reason that until my dd
reached a point of reason she simply never went alone to a home that I wasn't
certain about. That means that I knew the parents VERY well, knew they had
no guns for one thing. Honesty is ALL situations was taught and modeled.
However, the actions and choice of words for this situation were carefully
thought out and considered. I also waited for a time of maturity when my dd
would be able to separate the honest person she is from a moment of crisis
that may call for lying. Yes, I do believe there are rare events which a
higher calling takes precedence.
Just yesterday my dd and I were discussing the "Black Market" and what it
means. I explained that it is generally used for illegal activity and greed.
I added that it has been used for good but rarely. From here we discussed
WWII and the Nazi occupation in Europe and how some folks used the BM to
obtain goods, food and medication to do good, like aiding Jews in hiding.
She was shocked to learn that I was in agreement with this kind of action.
From here we went discussed civil disobedience and lying for a greater good.
It was an opportunity for me to restate MY beliefs on this issue. Deciding
to take an action like this requires brutal honesty in self-examination
because the temptation to do this for selfish reasons is strong.
My two reasons for advising her to use this particular statement, worded the
way it is are:
1) To avoid any hesitation on her part. It can be hard for a kid to take a
stand and even though she is usually good at this, I don't want her to wait
even a few seconds before getting out of there.
2) To avoid the other kids from trying to stop her from leaving. I don't
want them to stand in her way or try to persuade her because they are afraid
shes going to "tell" or get them in trouble somehow.
So yes, I am sure that I want her to "lie" to get out of there and we have
discussed "why" in detail, more than once. I would rather she violate her
own conscience in a moment like this than risk death. I've also told her
that she can say or do ANYTHING if she is in a dangerous situation, ie; being
approached by someone whom she feels is threatening. A few months ago she
was on the sidewalk and a man pulled up next to her in a car and began to
talk to her. She was caught off guard and blurted, "Thats my mom calling!"
and ran away. Yes she could have just run but maybe she needed to say that
to get her feet moving. I was absolutely FINE with what she did.
Kris
[email protected]
<< I also waited for a time of maturity when my dd
would be able to separate the honest person she is from a moment of crisis
that may call for lying. Yes, I do believe there are rare events which a
higher calling takes precedence. >>
I was discussing all this with a close friend last night. On another list
we're on, the past few days have also involved guns and honesty,
coincidently, and that was about what factors might affect or totally
preclude an SCA teacher/student relationship. Monday I had written that
although I don't like or have guns, gun ownership wouldn't be a big factor
for me with students, but honesty was my big #1.
So in telling him that this list had come to the juncture of guns and honesty
too, on the the next day, he made this point:
If a child is taught that there are times when lying is acceptable, the
parents should not be surprised when the children then lie to the parents.
Moments of crisis and rare events will happen between teens and parents.
And I didn't mean toy guns. I meant that I would rather give my children
real guns to play with than to teach them to lie.
Sandra
would be able to separate the honest person she is from a moment of crisis
that may call for lying. Yes, I do believe there are rare events which a
higher calling takes precedence. >>
I was discussing all this with a close friend last night. On another list
we're on, the past few days have also involved guns and honesty,
coincidently, and that was about what factors might affect or totally
preclude an SCA teacher/student relationship. Monday I had written that
although I don't like or have guns, gun ownership wouldn't be a big factor
for me with students, but honesty was my big #1.
So in telling him that this list had come to the juncture of guns and honesty
too, on the the next day, he made this point:
If a child is taught that there are times when lying is acceptable, the
parents should not be surprised when the children then lie to the parents.
Moments of crisis and rare events will happen between teens and parents.
And I didn't mean toy guns. I meant that I would rather give my children
real guns to play with than to teach them to lie.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/7/01 2:00:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<<If a child is taught that there are times when lying is acceptable, the
parents should not be surprised when the children then lie to the parents.
Moments of crisis and rare events will happen between teens and parents.>>
I understand and respect the ideology you are working from.
<<And I didn't mean toy guns. I meant that I would rather give my children
real guns to play with than to teach them to lie.>>
We differ on this. I would rather risk being lied to later and have her
survive her childish years to be able to make this choice. She has never
been punished for lying, although I have expressed my concerns for her
character and self-image. I have not discovered a lie from her for many
years now.
I trust in her ability to separate actions in a crisis event from her life as
an honest person. Honesty is a life long matter of choice, even those
children who are taught that it's NEVER okay to lie will come to terms with
this.
For me honesty is just a factor of my ethics and values. Do I allow honesty
to become the goal, even to the point of violating my morality? Would I have
been honest with a Nazi if I was hiding Jews? I think I would have lied,
convincinly too, to honor my higher calling. I would have been comfortable
in facing God with this lie in my past as well.
As I said I respect your ethics, even understand them but I know I could not
follow them.
Kris
SandraDodd@... writes:
<<If a child is taught that there are times when lying is acceptable, the
parents should not be surprised when the children then lie to the parents.
Moments of crisis and rare events will happen between teens and parents.>>
I understand and respect the ideology you are working from.
<<And I didn't mean toy guns. I meant that I would rather give my children
real guns to play with than to teach them to lie.>>
We differ on this. I would rather risk being lied to later and have her
survive her childish years to be able to make this choice. She has never
been punished for lying, although I have expressed my concerns for her
character and self-image. I have not discovered a lie from her for many
years now.
I trust in her ability to separate actions in a crisis event from her life as
an honest person. Honesty is a life long matter of choice, even those
children who are taught that it's NEVER okay to lie will come to terms with
this.
For me honesty is just a factor of my ethics and values. Do I allow honesty
to become the goal, even to the point of violating my morality? Would I have
been honest with a Nazi if I was hiding Jews? I think I would have lied,
convincinly too, to honor my higher calling. I would have been comfortable
in facing God with this lie in my past as well.
As I said I respect your ethics, even understand them but I know I could not
follow them.
Kris
Bobbie
THIS I completely in all wayz without anything
contrary to say (my boyfriend would be amazed) agree
here. My kids get in trouble for lying more than
anything else at all. That includes deception that
isn't neccesarily direct lying (sneaking in any way)
and now they are at the point (dd is still catching
on) that before I even find out ds will come to me
crying and say he lied and snuck such and such trying
to "trick" me.
I tell them that lying to me (or anyone) is the same
as punching them in the face, and if they wouldn't
want to hurt them like that (physically, punching,
hitting, etc) then they shouldn't lie to them.
It seems to do the trick.
I would rather hear the worst truth in the world,
especially someone I love than be lied to.
That just doubles the problem.
my two cents,
Bobbie
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
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contrary to say (my boyfriend would be amazed) agree
here. My kids get in trouble for lying more than
anything else at all. That includes deception that
isn't neccesarily direct lying (sneaking in any way)
and now they are at the point (dd is still catching
on) that before I even find out ds will come to me
crying and say he lied and snuck such and such trying
to "trick" me.
I tell them that lying to me (or anyone) is the same
as punching them in the face, and if they wouldn't
want to hurt them like that (physically, punching,
hitting, etc) then they shouldn't lie to them.
It seems to do the trick.
I would rather hear the worst truth in the world,
especially someone I love than be lied to.
That just doubles the problem.
my two cents,
Bobbie
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>__________________________________________________
> In a message dated 2/6/01 2:04:24 PM,
> insomniaaks@... writes:
>
> << > and she knows if someone shows a gun (even if
> she
> > thinks it might be real)
> > she will say, "Oh, I forgot, I was supposed to be
> > home 10 minutes ago." and
> > then leave. >>
>
> At the risk of criticism, I wish to say that I'd
> rather my kids play with
> guns than lie.
>
> In such a case, I would recommend for my kids say "I
> don't want to be around
> guns, so I'm going home," or just "I'm going home
> now." Dishonesty, even to
> oneself, is a harm that goes soul deep and can
> affect those who've never had
> a toy gon or a game with a picture of a gun.
>
> Everyone has their top few priorities in life, and
> honesty is my big #1.
>
> Sandra
>
>
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Bobbie
in this line of thought, and I know I am no expert or
have allll the right answers, nor am I trying to
teach, but just going along with what kris says
here...
(warning: reference to bible account incoming) <g>
it reminds me kind of of moses and aaron telling
pharoh that they just wanted to go into the wilderness
for ?3 dayz? to worship then come back etc....to test
his heart and teach him something and rescue thier
people from persecution.
sort of the same. you know?
-bobbie
--- louisaem@... wrote:
Would I have
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have allll the right answers, nor am I trying to
teach, but just going along with what kris says
here...
(warning: reference to bible account incoming) <g>
it reminds me kind of of moses and aaron telling
pharoh that they just wanted to go into the wilderness
for ?3 dayz? to worship then come back etc....to test
his heart and teach him something and rescue thier
people from persecution.
sort of the same. you know?
-bobbie
--- louisaem@... wrote:
Would I have
> been honest with a Nazi if I was hiding Jews? I__________________________________________________
> think I would have lied,
> convincinly too, to honor my higher calling. I
> would have been comfortable
> in facing God with this lie in my past as well.
>
> Kris
>
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GaryJanine
I let my kids play with toys guns and they know and understand about real
guns. I live in the West and lots of people use guns here for hunting. I say
a newscast (48 hrs. or something) and they were showing inner-city kids
finding hidden guns and discussing what they would do with them. I think
your attitude, openness and their environment play a big role in how your
children perceive guns. I think toy guns are fine, like you said, no
pointing at others not involved in the game. I also say, no pointing in
someones face or back. I played with toys guns as a child and I never
thought of using a real gun on anyone! Just my opinion.
Janine
GaryJanine@...
guns. I live in the West and lots of people use guns here for hunting. I say
a newscast (48 hrs. or something) and they were showing inner-city kids
finding hidden guns and discussing what they would do with them. I think
your attitude, openness and their environment play a big role in how your
children perceive guns. I think toy guns are fine, like you said, no
pointing at others not involved in the game. I also say, no pointing in
someones face or back. I played with toys guns as a child and I never
thought of using a real gun on anyone! Just my opinion.
Janine
GaryJanine@...
Sharon Rudd
Dear Bronwen
I was just wondering...do you write? You have so many
good analogies...and express yourself in a manner that
everyone understands. Your posts flow like poetic
prose. They sing. Just wondering.
Sharon
ps...not to make you self conscience...it is just that
you are a pleasure to read. Thanks
__________________________________________________
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I was just wondering...do you write? You have so many
good analogies...and express yourself in a manner that
everyone understands. Your posts flow like poetic
prose. They sing. Just wondering.
Sharon
ps...not to make you self conscience...it is just that
you are a pleasure to read. Thanks
__________________________________________________
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http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Shona Jesta Dunning
Sorry so later in giving my 2 cents worth, but we are getting ready to go
to the Colorado State Fair, where my son has qualified in 4-h Shooting
Sport. Wonderful program that teaches kids the truth about guns and
respect. See you guys after the Fair. Shona
to the Colorado State Fair, where my son has qualified in 4-h Shooting
Sport. Wonderful program that teaches kids the truth about guns and
respect. See you guys after the Fair. Shona
>I let my kids play with toys guns and they know and understand about real
>guns. I live in the West and lots of people use guns here for hunting. I say
>a newscast (48 hrs. or something) and they were showing inner-city kids
>finding hidden guns and discussing what they would do with them. I think
>your attitude, openness and their environment play a big role in how your
>children perceive guns. I think toy guns are fine, like you said, no
>pointing at others not involved in the game. I also say, no pointing in
>someones face or back. I played with toys guns as a child and I never
>thought of using a real gun on anyone! Just my opinion.
>
>Janine
>GaryJanine@...
>
>
>
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Pam Hartley
----------
swiftly at you, in a tense situation, in poor lighting, with fear as a
factor, if you forgot your glasses and were not close enough to see the
muscles involved in holding up a real gun vs. a fake one, you can make this
mistake.
Looking at a real and a fake next to each other in decent lighting up close,
and definitely by lifting one, it's very, very easy to tell the difference.
Guns are heavy and bulky with real bulk and feel and look and smell like
solid, serious weapons. Toy guns are just bits of plastic. I imagine there
are amazingly well-made fakes out there that until you lifted them you
couldn't really tell, but that's not your run of the mill Toys R Us special.
This is not to say I think carrying around fake guns that look at all real
is a good idea. In the home, in the yard, no problem. In the car, out and
about, there is IMHO a risk that at a quick and nervous glance people won't
know which is which.
I always find it interesting that people focus on whether there are guns in
the house when they send their kids "over to play". I'd be a lot more
interested to know if there were child abusers, including people who shout
at or hit their own children (this kind of uproar would terrify mine), or
large untrained dogs, or many other hazards. By the time my children are old
enough to "go visiting" alone, guns will be (already are) old and boring to
them.
Yesterday at the state fair, my almost-4 year old was thrown about 5 feet by
the whack of a cow's large, heavy and irritated head swinging into her. It
knocked the wind out of her, bloodied her nose, and scared her to bits.
After that experience, I'm more worried about accessible cattle and folks
who don't necessarily know what they're doing, like me: I stupidly let her
stand at the side of the cow pen where she could get hit instead of directly
in front where the structure of the pen would prevent it. I didn't know cows
DID that -- none of us standing there knew it -- but my daughters know what
guns do. They didn't know not to stand to the side of a cow, they do know
not to point a gun at someone.
Lots of people think their dogs won't bite and don't ever see the warning
signs until a kid gets half his face bitten off. "He turned on him without
warning" is a fairy tale. 99.9% of severe dogs bites can be seen coming a
mile away if you know what you're looking at. In 12 years of dog training as
a profession, specializing in aggression problems, I was surprise-bitten by
one dog. She was just-plain-nuts, and that happens hardly ever.
This is not to say that guns are harmless, or should be taken lightly, but I
think they get taken too heavily, too. You can't just say, "be careful of
guns", you have to live careful of guns, and raise children who care about
taking care with anything of potential danger -- guns, dogs, cattle, people
who scream at children.
Pam
>From: [email protected]At a distance, when someone is pretending a fake gun is real and pointing it
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1398
>Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001, 12:19 AM
>
> Wake up call. The reserach has already been done and that is why laws have
> been passed about what toy guns can look like. Not that it has done much
> good so far! AND, since even the cops can't tell the difference between
> real guns and play guns in some instances, I seriously doubt that a child
> can.
swiftly at you, in a tense situation, in poor lighting, with fear as a
factor, if you forgot your glasses and were not close enough to see the
muscles involved in holding up a real gun vs. a fake one, you can make this
mistake.
Looking at a real and a fake next to each other in decent lighting up close,
and definitely by lifting one, it's very, very easy to tell the difference.
Guns are heavy and bulky with real bulk and feel and look and smell like
solid, serious weapons. Toy guns are just bits of plastic. I imagine there
are amazingly well-made fakes out there that until you lifted them you
couldn't really tell, but that's not your run of the mill Toys R Us special.
This is not to say I think carrying around fake guns that look at all real
is a good idea. In the home, in the yard, no problem. In the car, out and
about, there is IMHO a risk that at a quick and nervous glance people won't
know which is which.
I always find it interesting that people focus on whether there are guns in
the house when they send their kids "over to play". I'd be a lot more
interested to know if there were child abusers, including people who shout
at or hit their own children (this kind of uproar would terrify mine), or
large untrained dogs, or many other hazards. By the time my children are old
enough to "go visiting" alone, guns will be (already are) old and boring to
them.
Yesterday at the state fair, my almost-4 year old was thrown about 5 feet by
the whack of a cow's large, heavy and irritated head swinging into her. It
knocked the wind out of her, bloodied her nose, and scared her to bits.
After that experience, I'm more worried about accessible cattle and folks
who don't necessarily know what they're doing, like me: I stupidly let her
stand at the side of the cow pen where she could get hit instead of directly
in front where the structure of the pen would prevent it. I didn't know cows
DID that -- none of us standing there knew it -- but my daughters know what
guns do. They didn't know not to stand to the side of a cow, they do know
not to point a gun at someone.
Lots of people think their dogs won't bite and don't ever see the warning
signs until a kid gets half his face bitten off. "He turned on him without
warning" is a fairy tale. 99.9% of severe dogs bites can be seen coming a
mile away if you know what you're looking at. In 12 years of dog training as
a profession, specializing in aggression problems, I was surprise-bitten by
one dog. She was just-plain-nuts, and that happens hardly ever.
This is not to say that guns are harmless, or should be taken lightly, but I
think they get taken too heavily, too. You can't just say, "be careful of
guns", you have to live careful of guns, and raise children who care about
taking care with anything of potential danger -- guns, dogs, cattle, people
who scream at children.
Pam
Sharon Rudd
Uh OH. I'm guilty of this. Probably will be agian,
too.
Sharon, Mother of Men
--- Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...> wrote:
including people who shout
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too.
Sharon, Mother of Men
--- Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...> wrote:
including people who shout
> at .......their own children (this kind of uproar__________________________________________________
> would terrify mine), > > Pam
>
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jefferson academy
--- Sharon Rudd <bearspawprint@...> wrote:
dd is sure to say in the background 'Jeez mom, I'm
glad the phone rang so you'd finally stop yelling!')
=====
Michele
(mom of 5dd: Justice 22, Felicity 20, Christian 18, Grace 13, Elysian (Mia)2)
__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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> Uh OH. I'm guilty of this. Probably will be agian,Me too. (Except when the phone rings - then one of my
> too.
> Sharon, Mother of Men
>
> --- Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...> wrote:
>
>
> including people who shout
> > at .......their own children (this kind of uproar
> > would terrify mine), > > Pam
> >
dd is sure to say in the background 'Jeez mom, I'm
glad the phone rang so you'd finally stop yelling!')
=====
Michele
(mom of 5dd: Justice 22, Felicity 20, Christian 18, Grace 13, Elysian (Mia)2)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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Lynda
http://www.oxnardpd.org/toyguns.htm Take this test and see if you can tell
the real guns from the toy guns.
Depending on where you live, it isn't a good idea to carry around real
looking play guns in the yard either.
Also, people don't necessarily only "focus" on whether or not there are guns
in a house. This conversation is about guns, therefore people bring up
their rules for houses re: guns.
In this house we screen with the little kidlets things that could be filed
under "all of the above." For the older kidlets, they do a pretty good job
of screening for themselves.
Lynda
the real guns from the toy guns.
Depending on where you live, it isn't a good idea to carry around real
looking play guns in the yard either.
Also, people don't necessarily only "focus" on whether or not there are guns
in a house. This conversation is about guns, therefore people bring up
their rules for houses re: guns.
In this house we screen with the little kidlets things that could be filed
under "all of the above." For the older kidlets, they do a pretty good job
of screening for themselves.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...>
>
> At a distance, when someone is pretending a fake gun is real and pointing
it
> swiftly at you, in a tense situation, in poor lighting, with fear as a
> factor, if you forgot your glasses and were not close enough to see the
> muscles involved in holding up a real gun vs. a fake one, you can make
this
> mistake.
>
> Looking at a real and a fake next to each other in decent lighting up
close,
> and definitely by lifting one, it's very, very easy to tell the
difference.
>
> Guns are heavy and bulky with real bulk and feel and look and smell like
> solid, serious weapons. Toy guns are just bits of plastic. I imagine there
> are amazingly well-made fakes out there that until you lifted them you
> couldn't really tell, but that's not your run of the mill Toys R Us
special.
>
> This is not to say I think carrying around fake guns that look at all real
> is a good idea. In the home, in the yard, no problem. In the car, out and
> about, there is IMHO a risk that at a quick and nervous glance people
won't
> know which is which.
>
> I always find it interesting that people focus on whether there are guns
in
> the house when they send their kids "over to play". I'd be a lot more
> interested to know if there were child abusers, including people who shout
> at or hit their own children (this kind of uproar would terrify mine), or
> large untrained dogs, or many other hazards. By the time my children are
old
> enough to "go visiting" alone, guns will be (already are) old and boring
to
> them.
>
> Yesterday at the state fair, my almost-4 year old was thrown about 5 feet
by
> the whack of a cow's large, heavy and irritated head swinging into her. It
> knocked the wind out of her, bloodied her nose, and scared her to bits.
> After that experience, I'm more worried about accessible cattle and folks
> who don't necessarily know what they're doing, like me: I stupidly let her
> stand at the side of the cow pen where she could get hit instead of
directly
> in front where the structure of the pen would prevent it. I didn't know
cows
> DID that -- none of us standing there knew it -- but my daughters know
what
> guns do. They didn't know not to stand to the side of a cow, they do know
> not to point a gun at someone.
>
> Lots of people think their dogs won't bite and don't ever see the warning
> signs until a kid gets half his face bitten off. "He turned on him without
> warning" is a fairy tale. 99.9% of severe dogs bites can be seen coming a
> mile away if you know what you're looking at. In 12 years of dog training
as
> a profession, specializing in aggression problems, I was surprise-bitten
by
> one dog. She was just-plain-nuts, and that happens hardly ever.
>
> This is not to say that guns are harmless, or should be taken lightly, but
I
> think they get taken too heavily, too. You can't just say, "be careful of
> guns", you have to live careful of guns, and raise children who care about
> taking care with anything of potential danger -- guns, dogs, cattle,
people
> who scream at children.
>
> Pam
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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>
>
>
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>
>
Lynda
Sometimes folks don't "hear" you unless you shout <g> Around here there is
so much noise from 20 million (so I exaggerate a little <g>) things going at
one time--piano, guitars, computers, washing machine, tv, radios, dog, cats,
skill saws, lawn mowers, synthesizers, hammers, screaming children, cards in
bicycle spokes, traffic, etc., etc., etc. that if you don't shout, you
aren't heard.
Lynda
so much noise from 20 million (so I exaggerate a little <g>) things going at
one time--piano, guitars, computers, washing machine, tv, radios, dog, cats,
skill saws, lawn mowers, synthesizers, hammers, screaming children, cards in
bicycle spokes, traffic, etc., etc., etc. that if you don't shout, you
aren't heard.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: jefferson academy <jeffersonacademy@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Shouting at children was Re: guns
>
> --- Sharon Rudd <bearspawprint@...> wrote:
> > Uh OH. I'm guilty of this. Probably will be agian,
> > too.
> > Sharon, Mother of Men
> >
> > --- Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > including people who shout
> > > at .......their own children (this kind of uproar
> > > would terrify mine), > > Pam
> > >
>
> Me too. (Except when the phone rings - then one of my
> dd is sure to say in the background 'Jeez mom, I'm
> glad the phone rang so you'd finally stop yelling!')
>
> =====
> Michele
> (mom of 5dd: Justice 22, Felicity 20, Christian 18, Grace 13, Elysian
(Mia)2)
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Pam Hartley
----------
I've seen artistic renderings of horses that I could not tell from a photo
of a real breathing horse, but I don't think in real life I'd be likely to
make the mistake.
Put me in a room where I can stand and look at them without touching, which
is what I said, and I'll take the test.
Pam
>From: [email protected]One small photo of some guns isn't a reasonable test of anyone's powers.
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1399
>Date: Sat, Sep 1, 2001, 12:29 AM
>
> http://www.oxnardpd.org/toyguns.htm Take this test and see if you can tell
> the real guns from the toy guns.
I've seen artistic renderings of horses that I could not tell from a photo
of a real breathing horse, but I don't think in real life I'd be likely to
make the mistake.
Put me in a room where I can stand and look at them without touching, which
is what I said, and I'll take the test.
Pam
Lynda
The pictures were from a test that was given "live" to people who unless
they picked the guns up couldn't tell the difference.
Lynda
they picked the guns up couldn't tell the difference.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 7:10 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: guns
>
>
> ----------
> >From: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1399
> >Date: Sat, Sep 1, 2001, 12:29 AM
> >
>
> > http://www.oxnardpd.org/toyguns.htm Take this test and see if you can
tell
> > the real guns from the toy guns.
>
>
> One small photo of some guns isn't a reasonable test of anyone's powers.
> I've seen artistic renderings of horses that I could not tell from a photo
> of a real breathing horse, but I don't think in real life I'd be likely to
> make the mistake.
>
> Put me in a room where I can stand and look at them without touching,
which
> is what I said, and I'll take the test.
>
> Pam
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Pam Hartley
----------
run-of-the-mill (i.e, the ones most people are likely to pick up for their
kids for a couple of bucks at the toy store) fake guns and real ones if I
were looking at them in person under calm circumstances, and I believe so
can most police and other people who know something about real guns.
Not the difference between "really good fakes" (I'm thinking of people who
may collect model guns which are very intricately done, and may even be made
of real-gun materials so it really WOULD be hard to tell the difference --
except that I doubt they put gun oil on these to clean them <g> so that's
one giveaway there).
I don't know if the guns in the picture are really good fakes or real or
even just regular toys guns, because you just can't see size or really any
clear detail, you can't smell them, you can't look from different angles,
etc.
And it's likely that MANY people might mistake a toy gun of somewhat real
appearance for fake if they'd never been around real guns -- the same way
the media and the police identify the some of the most un-Pit-Bull possible
dogs as Pit Bulls when the dogs bite someone.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Oh, this I don't doubt. I said *I* could tell the difference between
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1400
>Date: Sat, Sep 1, 2001, 12:12 PM
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:54:03 -0700
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: guns
>
> The pictures were from a test that was given "live" to people who unless
> they picked the guns up couldn't tell the difference.
>
> Lynda
run-of-the-mill (i.e, the ones most people are likely to pick up for their
kids for a couple of bucks at the toy store) fake guns and real ones if I
were looking at them in person under calm circumstances, and I believe so
can most police and other people who know something about real guns.
Not the difference between "really good fakes" (I'm thinking of people who
may collect model guns which are very intricately done, and may even be made
of real-gun materials so it really WOULD be hard to tell the difference --
except that I doubt they put gun oil on these to clean them <g> so that's
one giveaway there).
I don't know if the guns in the picture are really good fakes or real or
even just regular toys guns, because you just can't see size or really any
clear detail, you can't smell them, you can't look from different angles,
etc.
And it's likely that MANY people might mistake a toy gun of somewhat real
appearance for fake if they'd never been around real guns -- the same way
the media and the police identify the some of the most un-Pit-Bull possible
dogs as Pit Bulls when the dogs bite someone.
Pam