gifted
[email protected]
<<Some kids really are g/t and some aren't and there's no use comparing them
or denying either one exists.
imo
Nance>>
<<Oh, I definitely agree with you, Nance, and there will be some kids who are
never considered gifted no matter how they are schooled. My point was just
that maybe more kids would be allowed to explore their true potential and
more might be considered gifted if more were homeschooled.
Amy>>
Hi,
I always cringe when I hear the term "gifted". I was in a "gifted program"
for three years. Always was good in school, always good in those things that
are readily identifiable in our current culture as "gifted". My husband was
quite definitely not. However, he can fix just about anything -- dishwasher,
stove, furnace. As a young man he was hired by a billboard company to paint
the metal parts of the structure. After several years (and no formal
schooling) he was designing structures (there are many different styles --
had to submit his designs to engineers for approval) and supervising
construction of these 100 foot tall things (I won't get into a discussion of
the ugliness of billboards or the messages that they carry). My point is that
he has some sort of natural skill in knowing how things work -- a skill that
was not recognized or appreciated until he became an adult.
I have three children -- one spoke in complete sentences by 14 - 15 months
and started to read at about 2 years; one (at age 8) achieved a draw against
a grand master in a chess exhibition; and the third loves all people, can
talk to anyone and seems to melt the hardest hearts wherever she goes. Which
one is gifted?
My best friend and I are gardeners. She went to school and studied landscape
architecture (and her yard looks beautiful). We both are good at identifying
plants, but when those seedlings pop up where she hasn't planted, she calls
me. Somehow, I can make an identification based on the slightest clues.
Important to me and my friend (and perhaps survival one day), but giftedness?
Our culture has certain things that it values. School culture has things
that it values. Unschooling goes beyond these. It lets us be who we are and
who we're going to be, whatever our gifts.
Helen
or denying either one exists.
imo
Nance>>
<<Oh, I definitely agree with you, Nance, and there will be some kids who are
never considered gifted no matter how they are schooled. My point was just
that maybe more kids would be allowed to explore their true potential and
more might be considered gifted if more were homeschooled.
Amy>>
Hi,
I always cringe when I hear the term "gifted". I was in a "gifted program"
for three years. Always was good in school, always good in those things that
are readily identifiable in our current culture as "gifted". My husband was
quite definitely not. However, he can fix just about anything -- dishwasher,
stove, furnace. As a young man he was hired by a billboard company to paint
the metal parts of the structure. After several years (and no formal
schooling) he was designing structures (there are many different styles --
had to submit his designs to engineers for approval) and supervising
construction of these 100 foot tall things (I won't get into a discussion of
the ugliness of billboards or the messages that they carry). My point is that
he has some sort of natural skill in knowing how things work -- a skill that
was not recognized or appreciated until he became an adult.
I have three children -- one spoke in complete sentences by 14 - 15 months
and started to read at about 2 years; one (at age 8) achieved a draw against
a grand master in a chess exhibition; and the third loves all people, can
talk to anyone and seems to melt the hardest hearts wherever she goes. Which
one is gifted?
My best friend and I are gardeners. She went to school and studied landscape
architecture (and her yard looks beautiful). We both are good at identifying
plants, but when those seedlings pop up where she hasn't planted, she calls
me. Somehow, I can make an identification based on the slightest clues.
Important to me and my friend (and perhaps survival one day), but giftedness?
Our culture has certain things that it values. School culture has things
that it values. Unschooling goes beyond these. It lets us be who we are and
who we're going to be, whatever our gifts.
Helen
[email protected]
In a message dated 01/10/2001 4:54:12 PM !!!First Boot!!!, HWLaP@...
writes:
Maybe all of them.
But my point was that giftedness (intellectual and artistic) does exist. To
deny it doesn't seem to serve any purpose to me. Some people don't have
their children take an IQ test. Some do. One of mine has been tested. The
youngest is scheduled but I think she will be too resistant and so we will
not go. But if the score or the information you can get from a truly
exhaustive evaluation helps the family, that seems like a good thing to me.
Identifying someone as more capable doesn't take away from anyone else and
may help that person's family provide what they need in order to thrive.
We all have our own personal experience to rely on (I don't think we had
gifted way back when I was in school) but that can't apply to the next family
over, imo. And it might not even apply to our very own children -- for
instance, things have changed quite a bit in school and out of school since I
was 6 years old. Different choices are available and if IQ or g/t info helps
in making those choices, I say the more power to the family trying to figure
all of this out.
I am sorry if g/t individuals are not always as tactful as they might be and
come across as bragging or insulting or in some way intimidate other
families. But hiding one's light is not the answer.
We often discuss how we don't make others feel bad about being able to climb
a tree quicker or run faster or read a book sooner. There is nothing to be
gained by putting yourself out in the world like that. At least that's what
I tell my kids. But they are who they are. And they stick out like sore
thumbs. They are taller and smarter/quicker than many of their age mates.
Solution: they often end up playing with older children. Then you run into
social issues with them -- the nice game of hide and seek my daughter wants
to play is completely different from the sneak-back-and-touch-the-base
version that her older best friend plays. Little things. But the age
differences show. But intellectually, if they want to play a board game or
have a conversation or talk about common interests, they are a good match.
It's a balancing act for them and for us but that's just the reality of it.
We are learning as we go. And trying not to be obnoxious about being good at
things (not all, but enough that it comes up regularly) but I don't want my
kids dumbing down to fit in either. Juggling and balancing -- who knew
these were such vital life skills! :)
OTOH, your children sound spectacular! And you know them well enough that
you have not felt the need to label them g/t. And that works for your
family. Wonderful.
It's just not possible, imo, that there is one approach that is going to work
for all of us.
Nance
writes:
I have three children -- one spoke in complete sentences by 14 - 15 months
and started to read at about 2 years; one (at age 8) achieved a draw
against
a grand master in a chess exhibition; and the third loves all people, can
talk to anyone and seems to melt the hardest hearts wherever she goes.
Which
one is gifted?
Maybe all of them.
But my point was that giftedness (intellectual and artistic) does exist. To
deny it doesn't seem to serve any purpose to me. Some people don't have
their children take an IQ test. Some do. One of mine has been tested. The
youngest is scheduled but I think she will be too resistant and so we will
not go. But if the score or the information you can get from a truly
exhaustive evaluation helps the family, that seems like a good thing to me.
Identifying someone as more capable doesn't take away from anyone else and
may help that person's family provide what they need in order to thrive.
We all have our own personal experience to rely on (I don't think we had
gifted way back when I was in school) but that can't apply to the next family
over, imo. And it might not even apply to our very own children -- for
instance, things have changed quite a bit in school and out of school since I
was 6 years old. Different choices are available and if IQ or g/t info helps
in making those choices, I say the more power to the family trying to figure
all of this out.
I am sorry if g/t individuals are not always as tactful as they might be and
come across as bragging or insulting or in some way intimidate other
families. But hiding one's light is not the answer.
We often discuss how we don't make others feel bad about being able to climb
a tree quicker or run faster or read a book sooner. There is nothing to be
gained by putting yourself out in the world like that. At least that's what
I tell my kids. But they are who they are. And they stick out like sore
thumbs. They are taller and smarter/quicker than many of their age mates.
Solution: they often end up playing with older children. Then you run into
social issues with them -- the nice game of hide and seek my daughter wants
to play is completely different from the sneak-back-and-touch-the-base
version that her older best friend plays. Little things. But the age
differences show. But intellectually, if they want to play a board game or
have a conversation or talk about common interests, they are a good match.
It's a balancing act for them and for us but that's just the reality of it.
We are learning as we go. And trying not to be obnoxious about being good at
things (not all, but enough that it comes up regularly) but I don't want my
kids dumbing down to fit in either. Juggling and balancing -- who knew
these were such vital life skills! :)
OTOH, your children sound spectacular! And you know them well enough that
you have not felt the need to label them g/t. And that works for your
family. Wonderful.
It's just not possible, imo, that there is one approach that is going to work
for all of us.
Nance
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
>Identifying someone as more capable doesn't take away from anyone else andIn defense of Identifying the gifted I will share this story about my cousin. I have a cousin, a few years older than me, whom my brother and I grew up quite close to. Being awkward and shy as a child, he tended to not speak out and try not to attract attention to himself. Being in public school, this worked amazingly well, and he slipped silently through the system until Highschool. In his later Highschool years he took some sort of IQ testing mandated or suggested for his grade, and lo and behold, he came out with the highest score, high genius level.
>may help that person's family provide what they need in order to thrive.
>Nance
His family always knew he was gifted, and his teachers no doubt thought he was smart, but how bored must he have been in school? And being the oldest in a large family, there was not a lot of time or energy at home for him. How many opportunities or programs missed him in his growing years that might have enriched him? How many teachers or administrators might have been made aware of his talents and helped him to benefit from them?
The greatest tragedy is that he was never made aware of his own abilities, always feeling socially awkward because he did not share his peers interests, and crippled by shyness. He grew into an insecure adult with poor self esteem, never provided the opportunity to shine in the areas where he excelled. He is better now. As he matures, advances in his career field, and raises his own children, his self esteem and confidence improve. But his lack of these crucial elemets in his life may very well have hurt him in numerous immesurable ways. For one thing, he married another brilliant underachiever who abused him and left him a single father of two. Might things have been different?....
Nanci K.
------------------------------------------------------------
Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm) today!
Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/2001 12:28:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:
This is exactly why I took my son out of public school!!! His self esteem
was being wittled away,; everything was always about what was wrong,
different and other about him. He couldnt relate to his peers because
although they were his age mates, the similarity ended there! I truly felt
as if I was rescuing him from having his ego and mental status ruined at the
mere age of eight. He has ticks and anxiety that I believe were a direct
result of this public school's "abuse".
THank you for sharing your story. It makes me feel better about my decision.
Every day, I feel more and more sure that this was the right thing. I have
never, ever seen my son happier than he is now!
Dawn
tn-k4of5@... writes:
The greatest tragedy is that he was never made aware of his own abilities,
always feeling socially awkward because he did not share his peers
interests, and crippled by shyness. He grew into an insecure adult with
poor self esteem, never provided the opportunity to shine in the areas
where he excelled.
This is exactly why I took my son out of public school!!! His self esteem
was being wittled away,; everything was always about what was wrong,
different and other about him. He couldnt relate to his peers because
although they were his age mates, the similarity ended there! I truly felt
as if I was rescuing him from having his ego and mental status ruined at the
mere age of eight. He has ticks and anxiety that I believe were a direct
result of this public school's "abuse".
THank you for sharing your story. It makes me feel better about my decision.
Every day, I feel more and more sure that this was the right thing. I have
never, ever seen my son happier than he is now!
Dawn
DiamondAir
I've been gone for over a week on vacation, and jumping feet-first into this
"gifted" thread. FWIW, I was considered "gifted" as a child, and went
through all the g/t programs in school. I do not feel that the label served
me well personally, although it did get me out of some boring classes and
give me more time to "goof off" :-). My husband OTOH, was
labeled a "slow learner" and dropped out of high school. He has gone on
to become a commercially-rated pilot, airplane mechanic, and then start up
his own mega-succcessful businesses. He's a born natural "gifted"
businessman if you ask me, but of course that's yet another talent that
doesn't measure on the "gifted" meter of schooling or IQ tests and it took
him the better part of 20 years to get past the negative labeling and see
himself for the truly talented individual that he is.
My kids are probably both what would be called "gifted" if I ever had to put
them into a school environment. Certainly with my son (4), I have already
had to endure comments, even from random strangers, about his "giftedness".
People come up to me and tell me I should be enrolling him in this or that
school to take advantage of his abilities. He wrote his first words at just
past his 2nd birthday, wanted to teach himself Spanish at 3, etc. etc. etc..
My daughter at age 1 is already making sentences and complex inferences,
people are already telling me how "bright" she is. As a child of such
labels, I must say I cringe inwardly whenever I hear these. So that's my
background, FWIW.
If we see that some kids are "gifted" in a specific set of activities or
values, and then apply that label to them - well, it exists! But we also
have to acknowledge that it is a culturally-contrived thing. Someone who is
artistically "gifted" in one culture would not be seen so in another. And
many, many artists die poor and unknown because their "gifts" were not even
recognized in the culture they were born in. Someone who is intellectually
"gifted" may be able to compute the world's most complex formula, but be
unable to complete a grocery shopping excursion. The very label "gifted"
implies some universal ability to do everything, when in reality it is a
narrow set of abilities we are talking about when we use that word. No-one
on earth is truly "gifted" in everything, thus most people have gifts in one
area or another. To choose to use the label "gifted" to only refer to one
such set of abilities is harmful in my opinion, both to the person who is
being labeled, and perhaps more so, to those who are not labeled as such.
in school. After all, school is an artificially constructed environment with
a narrow focus on a certain set of abilities that are prized, to the
detriment of others. But I guess I wonder how labeling a child as "gifted"
helps the family in an unschooling environment. Whether or not we have that
label, we have the capability to meet our child's needs for whatever
knowledge they need to achieve whatever they want to achieve (or to help
enable them to find creative ways to meet their needs for knowledge
themselves). This is no different for the child who wants to master
astrophysics than for the child who wants to create clay pots, learn to
repair bicycles, or act in dramatic productions. And I do argue that
"identifying someone as more capable" *does* take away from others, because
by nature of making that statement, we are narrowing our definition of
capable. Capable of what? Identifying a bird? Tearing down a V-8 engine and
reconstructing it by sight? Solving a complex mathematical problem? Reaching
the next level in a Pokemon game? Cooking a Creme Brulee? Those who are
labeled as "more capable" are really only "more capable" in a certain subset
of abilities, and by using that label as if it is all-encompassing (just as
using the label "gifted" in the same way), we are inferring (whether we mean
to or not) that other ways of being "capable" or "gifted" are less
important. Worse, we may miss out on more quiet and subtle abilities in
others. Was Mother Theresa "gifted"?? What about Ghandi?? Abraham Lincoln?
Using these labels only shows what we, as a society, find important to
measure or to succeed in. Additionally, these labels are most useful when
people are in an artificially age-segregated environment (like school). What
are one person's academic gifts when balanced against another person's 85
years of accumulated wisdom? What exactly is a "gifted" 10 year old when
they keep company with people ranging in age from 2 to 92? Almost any person
of any intellectual ability can find people they can relate to if they look
outside their own immediate age-stratified peer group. A 6 year old can play
chess with a 50 year old aunt or turn around and play dress-up with their 4
year old sibling.
Having worked at Microsoft for 10 years, I saw over and over a very
interesting phenomenon occur there. When I worked there, Microsoft was being
deluged by tens of thousands of resumes a month, and we only hired hundreds.
Thus we were looking for the creme de la creme, and most people coming in to
Microsoft were head of the class, had their Mensa cards firmly in hand, had
scored 1400 or above on their SATs, had their Phi Beta Kappa pins, their
honor society memberships, their Summa Cum Laude, etc. They were used to
being the special, the "gifted" ones, and coming in to a place where
everyone else was equally "gifted" was quite a shock. It was interesting to
watch it play out, as many of these "gifted" people had never dealt with
other people as peers in their lives. Many of them had few social and life
skills. Managers at Microsoft sometimes found themselves doing strange tasks
like helping an employee open a checking account or buy a car - some of
these "gifted" people were truly helpless when it came to real life. A
friend of mine referred to Microsoft as "The Great Sandbox" because often it
seemed that way - full of squabbling kids who never grew up in many
important ways. People whose egos matched their considerable intellectual
abilities and impaired their ability to creatively and cooperatively work
with one another. To me, this is the damage that labels can do, and my
greatest task as a parent is to help my children exercise their gifts
(whatever they may be), while also giving them the ability to enjoy the
company of all different types of people, work with people of varying
talents and abilities, acknowledge their own strengths and weaknesses, fail
at things, and be able to live life to the fullest in many different arenas.
I personally just feel that using a label such as "gifted" in such a narrow
way can impair the ability to have a broad base in life. That's just my .02
(lengthy as it might be :-)
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) who is playing his Christmas guitar
and Asa (10/5/99) who is playing the harmonica to accompany her brother
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family
"gifted" thread. FWIW, I was considered "gifted" as a child, and went
through all the g/t programs in school. I do not feel that the label served
me well personally, although it did get me out of some boring classes and
give me more time to "goof off" :-). My husband OTOH, was
labeled a "slow learner" and dropped out of high school. He has gone on
to become a commercially-rated pilot, airplane mechanic, and then start up
his own mega-succcessful businesses. He's a born natural "gifted"
businessman if you ask me, but of course that's yet another talent that
doesn't measure on the "gifted" meter of schooling or IQ tests and it took
him the better part of 20 years to get past the negative labeling and see
himself for the truly talented individual that he is.
My kids are probably both what would be called "gifted" if I ever had to put
them into a school environment. Certainly with my son (4), I have already
had to endure comments, even from random strangers, about his "giftedness".
People come up to me and tell me I should be enrolling him in this or that
school to take advantage of his abilities. He wrote his first words at just
past his 2nd birthday, wanted to teach himself Spanish at 3, etc. etc. etc..
My daughter at age 1 is already making sentences and complex inferences,
people are already telling me how "bright" she is. As a child of such
labels, I must say I cringe inwardly whenever I hear these. So that's my
background, FWIW.
> From: marbleface@...To
> But my point was that giftedness (intellectual and artistic) does exist.
> deny it doesn't seem to serve any purpose to me.Anything can exist if we want to see it, and if our culture constructs it.
If we see that some kids are "gifted" in a specific set of activities or
values, and then apply that label to them - well, it exists! But we also
have to acknowledge that it is a culturally-contrived thing. Someone who is
artistically "gifted" in one culture would not be seen so in another. And
many, many artists die poor and unknown because their "gifts" were not even
recognized in the culture they were born in. Someone who is intellectually
"gifted" may be able to compute the world's most complex formula, but be
unable to complete a grocery shopping excursion. The very label "gifted"
implies some universal ability to do everything, when in reality it is a
narrow set of abilities we are talking about when we use that word. No-one
on earth is truly "gifted" in everything, thus most people have gifts in one
area or another. To choose to use the label "gifted" to only refer to one
such set of abilities is harmful in my opinion, both to the person who is
being labeled, and perhaps more so, to those who are not labeled as such.
> Identifying someone as more capable doesn't take away from anyone else andI can definitely see how the "gifted" label can help people whose kids are
> may help that person's family provide what they need in order to thrive.
in school. After all, school is an artificially constructed environment with
a narrow focus on a certain set of abilities that are prized, to the
detriment of others. But I guess I wonder how labeling a child as "gifted"
helps the family in an unschooling environment. Whether or not we have that
label, we have the capability to meet our child's needs for whatever
knowledge they need to achieve whatever they want to achieve (or to help
enable them to find creative ways to meet their needs for knowledge
themselves). This is no different for the child who wants to master
astrophysics than for the child who wants to create clay pots, learn to
repair bicycles, or act in dramatic productions. And I do argue that
"identifying someone as more capable" *does* take away from others, because
by nature of making that statement, we are narrowing our definition of
capable. Capable of what? Identifying a bird? Tearing down a V-8 engine and
reconstructing it by sight? Solving a complex mathematical problem? Reaching
the next level in a Pokemon game? Cooking a Creme Brulee? Those who are
labeled as "more capable" are really only "more capable" in a certain subset
of abilities, and by using that label as if it is all-encompassing (just as
using the label "gifted" in the same way), we are inferring (whether we mean
to or not) that other ways of being "capable" or "gifted" are less
important. Worse, we may miss out on more quiet and subtle abilities in
others. Was Mother Theresa "gifted"?? What about Ghandi?? Abraham Lincoln?
Using these labels only shows what we, as a society, find important to
measure or to succeed in. Additionally, these labels are most useful when
people are in an artificially age-segregated environment (like school). What
are one person's academic gifts when balanced against another person's 85
years of accumulated wisdom? What exactly is a "gifted" 10 year old when
they keep company with people ranging in age from 2 to 92? Almost any person
of any intellectual ability can find people they can relate to if they look
outside their own immediate age-stratified peer group. A 6 year old can play
chess with a 50 year old aunt or turn around and play dress-up with their 4
year old sibling.
Having worked at Microsoft for 10 years, I saw over and over a very
interesting phenomenon occur there. When I worked there, Microsoft was being
deluged by tens of thousands of resumes a month, and we only hired hundreds.
Thus we were looking for the creme de la creme, and most people coming in to
Microsoft were head of the class, had their Mensa cards firmly in hand, had
scored 1400 or above on their SATs, had their Phi Beta Kappa pins, their
honor society memberships, their Summa Cum Laude, etc. They were used to
being the special, the "gifted" ones, and coming in to a place where
everyone else was equally "gifted" was quite a shock. It was interesting to
watch it play out, as many of these "gifted" people had never dealt with
other people as peers in their lives. Many of them had few social and life
skills. Managers at Microsoft sometimes found themselves doing strange tasks
like helping an employee open a checking account or buy a car - some of
these "gifted" people were truly helpless when it came to real life. A
friend of mine referred to Microsoft as "The Great Sandbox" because often it
seemed that way - full of squabbling kids who never grew up in many
important ways. People whose egos matched their considerable intellectual
abilities and impaired their ability to creatively and cooperatively work
with one another. To me, this is the damage that labels can do, and my
greatest task as a parent is to help my children exercise their gifts
(whatever they may be), while also giving them the ability to enjoy the
company of all different types of people, work with people of varying
talents and abilities, acknowledge their own strengths and weaknesses, fail
at things, and be able to live life to the fullest in many different arenas.
I personally just feel that using a label such as "gifted" in such a narrow
way can impair the ability to have a broad base in life. That's just my .02
(lengthy as it might be :-)
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) who is playing his Christmas guitar
and Asa (10/5/99) who is playing the harmonica to accompany her brother
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family
Cindy L.
----- Original Message -----
From: "DiamondAir" <diamondair@...>
>
> > From: marbleface@...
> > But my point was that giftedness (intellectual and artistic) does exist.
> To
> > deny it doesn't seem to serve any purpose to me.
>
> Anything can exist if we want to see it, and if our culture constructs it.
> If we see that some kids are "gifted" in a specific set of activities or
> values, and then apply that label to them - well, it exists! But we also
> have to acknowledge that it is a culturally-contrived thing. Someone who
is
> artistically "gifted" in one culture would not be seen so in another. And
> many, many artists die poor and unknown because their "gifts" were not
even
> recognized in the culture they were born in. Someone who is intellectually
> "gifted" may be able to compute the world's most complex formula, but be
> unable to complete a grocery shopping excursion. The very label "gifted"
> implies some universal ability to do everything, when in reality it is a
> narrow set of abilities we are talking about when we use that word. No-one
> on earth is truly "gifted" in everything, thus most people have gifts in
one
> area or another. To choose to use the label "gifted" to only refer to one
> such set of abilities is harmful in my opinion, both to the person who is
> being labeled, and perhaps more so, to those who are not labeled as such.
>
Thank you Robin!
Your entire post was great, just copied a small part above. I've been
wanting to respond to this thread for days but since I share a computer with
DH, I didn't have enough time to compose my long drawn out thoughts. I see
no purpose in using the gifted term at all in the realm of unschooling, we
unschool in order to avoid such limiting labels. The idea of giftedness is
just a new, more acceptable way of the old tracking system. The school
systems are still set up to provide a set of workers, they certainly don't
want to convince all the kids that they are talented, and capable, or who
will be willing to do the low paid 'grunt' work. Anyway I don't have the
time to really finish this thought right now, but you expressed so much that
I wanted to say, and in a much more coherent form than I seem to be capable
of, at the present time. BTW, there were no gifted programs way back when I
was in school, but I had the right look- and I was put into all the A track
classes, which were filled with the neatly dressed white kids from 'good'
homes. Guess that made me gifted back then, and I get the feeling it still
goes a long way today.
Thanks again,
Cindy L.
[email protected]
Robin,
I agree with every one of your points. I can look at a number of
different people in my life (including myself) and see how labels
(whether positive or negative) can have profound effects on a
person's self-esteem and ability to interact in the real world. And
as homeschoolers, most of us realize that school is not the "real"
world. Not many people become professional IQ test takers. And it is
unclear to me how a grade on a standardized test translates into
"real" world ability. Why box someone in with an artificial label?
Let them determine for themselves who they are and what they can
achieve.
And as far as rescuing some students from stultifying classes or
social hell, we should be making the world a safer, more stimulating
place for everyone, not just the "gifted."
Tammy
I agree with every one of your points. I can look at a number of
different people in my life (including myself) and see how labels
(whether positive or negative) can have profound effects on a
person's self-esteem and ability to interact in the real world. And
as homeschoolers, most of us realize that school is not the "real"
world. Not many people become professional IQ test takers. And it is
unclear to me how a grade on a standardized test translates into
"real" world ability. Why box someone in with an artificial label?
Let them determine for themselves who they are and what they can
achieve.
And as far as rescuing some students from stultifying classes or
social hell, we should be making the world a safer, more stimulating
place for everyone, not just the "gifted."
Tammy
[email protected]
In a message dated 01/11/2001 8:04:56 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
tammy_gregg@... writes:
Well, that's a nice approach. I hope it's all working out with you and yours.
I must say though that reading about some of the asynchronisity, learning
abilities, learning differences, social issues, curriculum issues, etc.,
etc., on some web sites and email lists for families with g/t children, has
been very helpful here.
Hoagies is my favorite source of info and gives loads of info and links about
g/t related issues. The addy is http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/gift.htm if
anyone is interested.
And, as I think I probably mentioned, this was simply the reason that we
started hsing (mostly unschooling). We, like a lot of families, thought the
schools would do a fine job with our children. The ps system around here
turned out to be wholly inadequate and inflexible. So we started hsing and
it soon turned into mostly unschooling.
And, even though boredom and lack of academic stimulation and content were
the reasons we started, we have found many additional good reasons to hs.
I'm sure children do not have to be g/t to benefit from hsing. But, in our
case anyway, hsing has been the solution to the "problem" of having g/t kids
in school.
Labels may not be everyone's cup of tea and, I would guess, in a group of
unschoolers there would be more than the average number of people who don't
like labels. But learning about my children's abilities by learning about
g/t children and their issues has been a help to me and mine.
It really is different in every house and I think we all have to use what
information we each find to be personally helpful to do the best we can for
our children. Labelled or not! :)
Nance
tammy_gregg@... writes:
Let them determine for themselves who they are and what they can
achieve.
And as far as rescuing some students from stultifying classes or
social hell, we should be making the world a safer, more stimulating
place for everyone, not just the "gifted."
Tammy
Well, that's a nice approach. I hope it's all working out with you and yours.
I must say though that reading about some of the asynchronisity, learning
abilities, learning differences, social issues, curriculum issues, etc.,
etc., on some web sites and email lists for families with g/t children, has
been very helpful here.
Hoagies is my favorite source of info and gives loads of info and links about
g/t related issues. The addy is http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/gift.htm if
anyone is interested.
And, as I think I probably mentioned, this was simply the reason that we
started hsing (mostly unschooling). We, like a lot of families, thought the
schools would do a fine job with our children. The ps system around here
turned out to be wholly inadequate and inflexible. So we started hsing and
it soon turned into mostly unschooling.
And, even though boredom and lack of academic stimulation and content were
the reasons we started, we have found many additional good reasons to hs.
I'm sure children do not have to be g/t to benefit from hsing. But, in our
case anyway, hsing has been the solution to the "problem" of having g/t kids
in school.
Labels may not be everyone's cup of tea and, I would guess, in a group of
unschoolers there would be more than the average number of people who don't
like labels. But learning about my children's abilities by learning about
g/t children and their issues has been a help to me and mine.
It really is different in every house and I think we all have to use what
information we each find to be personally helpful to do the best we can for
our children. Labelled or not! :)
Nance
Mac and Carol Brown
I gave up on bothering with these sort of labels after discovering that
books about giftedness, and books about kids with learning difficulties,
very, very often came up with identical action plans, activities etc!
It became apparent to me that what they were all saying was that every
child is special in its own way, and that we have to provide for each
one in the way that addresses his / her particular specialness.
In a school situation, assessment testing may be the only way to
discover some aspects of the child's uniqueness. In the unschooling
situation, we don't need it. We are with our child, physically,
emotionally, spiritually all the time. We can discover the child
ourselves in a far more real way.
I also think that there is a danger in discovering a child's 'gifts' in
that everyone may then focus on those things. But in my own life, I have
found that the things I am good at (NB I am no way gifted at anything),
are not necessarily the things I am passionate about. I'm sure that a
lot of my depression over the years has been because I have been pushed
towards the things that came easily, and away from the things I really
wanted to do even though they didn't come naturally or well.
Carol
books about giftedness, and books about kids with learning difficulties,
very, very often came up with identical action plans, activities etc!
It became apparent to me that what they were all saying was that every
child is special in its own way, and that we have to provide for each
one in the way that addresses his / her particular specialness.
In a school situation, assessment testing may be the only way to
discover some aspects of the child's uniqueness. In the unschooling
situation, we don't need it. We are with our child, physically,
emotionally, spiritually all the time. We can discover the child
ourselves in a far more real way.
I also think that there is a danger in discovering a child's 'gifts' in
that everyone may then focus on those things. But in my own life, I have
found that the things I am good at (NB I am no way gifted at anything),
are not necessarily the things I am passionate about. I'm sure that a
lot of my depression over the years has been because I have been pushed
towards the things that came easily, and away from the things I really
wanted to do even though they didn't come naturally or well.
Carol
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/11/01 2:13:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
marbleface@... writes:
<< Labels may not be everyone's cup of tea and, I would guess, in a group of
unschoolers there would be more than the average number of people who don't
like labels. But learning about my children's abilities by learning about
g/t children and their issues has been a help to me and mine. >>
I think " learning about my children's abilities" is the key here. For Nance
with her academically motivated kids, the g/t stuff has been useful. For me
with my oldest, whenever I've read a book or seen a movie about an artist or
actor, I've understood her better. The book "Gifts Differing : Understanding
Personality Type" by Isabel Briggs Myers & Peter B. Myers" has been helpful
to me also. -Amalia-
marbleface@... writes:
<< Labels may not be everyone's cup of tea and, I would guess, in a group of
unschoolers there would be more than the average number of people who don't
like labels. But learning about my children's abilities by learning about
g/t children and their issues has been a help to me and mine. >>
I think " learning about my children's abilities" is the key here. For Nance
with her academically motivated kids, the g/t stuff has been useful. For me
with my oldest, whenever I've read a book or seen a movie about an artist or
actor, I've understood her better. The book "Gifts Differing : Understanding
Personality Type" by Isabel Briggs Myers & Peter B. Myers" has been helpful
to me also. -Amalia-
Julie
Carol wrote
I have often gotten really angry when I hear people use these labels,
gifted, special needs , learning dufficulties, etc, when what they are
really doing is coming up with a language to say, "These kids learn things
we approve of in a way that is easy for us" and "These kids want to learn
things we don't know about and make our work hard."
The gifted label can be just as damaging as any label.
of a very small group who were taken out of regular lessons once a week to
sit in another room with a file of exercises we could do if we wanted, but
nobody to help. It was all forgotten the next year in high school anyway.
But all through my childhood and into university, I was told I was
academically minded. I am. But because that was what was valued I ignored
the other things I wanted to do. I could never fit music or photography or
drawing into my academic schedule. I am only now trying to access some of
that creativity that I know must be there. Now, a few years after finishing
a Masters degree which is coming is so useful in my everyday life....not.
No, I can't say bad things abouth the degree, I did it because I wanted to,
not because I wanted to get a job or because I felt I had to. But now I am
doing other things I value equally. More artistc and musical things. And
trying to have fun and not worry about being "good'.
Peace
Julie
> I gave up on bothering with these sort of labels after discovering thatGreat point Carol!
> books about giftedness, and books about kids with learning difficulties,
> very, very often came up with identical action plans, activities etc!
>
> It became apparent to me that what they were all saying was that every
> child is special in its own way, and that we have to provide for each
> one in the way that addresses his / her particular specialness.
I have often gotten really angry when I hear people use these labels,
gifted, special needs , learning dufficulties, etc, when what they are
really doing is coming up with a language to say, "These kids learn things
we approve of in a way that is easy for us" and "These kids want to learn
things we don't know about and make our work hard."
The gifted label can be just as damaging as any label.
>I also think that there is a danger in discovering a child's 'gifts' inThis discussion has reminded me that when I was in grade school, I was one
>that everyone may then focus on those things. But in my own life, I have
>found that the things I am good at (NB I am no way gifted at anything),
>are not necessarily the things I am passionate about. I'm sure that a
>lot of my depression over the years has been because I have been pushed
>towards the things that came easily, and away from the things I really
>wanted to do even though they didn't come naturally or well.
of a very small group who were taken out of regular lessons once a week to
sit in another room with a file of exercises we could do if we wanted, but
nobody to help. It was all forgotten the next year in high school anyway.
But all through my childhood and into university, I was told I was
academically minded. I am. But because that was what was valued I ignored
the other things I wanted to do. I could never fit music or photography or
drawing into my academic schedule. I am only now trying to access some of
that creativity that I know must be there. Now, a few years after finishing
a Masters degree which is coming is so useful in my everyday life....not.
No, I can't say bad things abouth the degree, I did it because I wanted to,
not because I wanted to get a job or because I felt I had to. But now I am
doing other things I value equally. More artistc and musical things. And
trying to have fun and not worry about being "good'.
Peace
Julie
Christine Masloske
What a wonderful discussion! As I read through this, I realize how
many women had such similiar experiences in childhood & adolescence
in regard to "giftedness", and now how many of us now choose
motherhood and homeschooling as a lifestyle for ourselves and
children. I believe that our "giftedness" is now reflected in the
true gift we are giving our children by unschooling and choosing
family first!
I find it very inspiring to read the posts by all of you magnificent
women! I do LOL when I read the parts about our "gifted" past and
how average our husbands' pasts are and now they are the ones
succeeding in their talents, most I would assume support their
families, financially and in unschooling.
Thank you all for sharing...
Chris
Mommy to Jason (8), Angela (6-1/2), Daniel (3-1/2) and soon-to-be #4!!
many women had such similiar experiences in childhood & adolescence
in regard to "giftedness", and now how many of us now choose
motherhood and homeschooling as a lifestyle for ourselves and
children. I believe that our "giftedness" is now reflected in the
true gift we are giving our children by unschooling and choosing
family first!
I find it very inspiring to read the posts by all of you magnificent
women! I do LOL when I read the parts about our "gifted" past and
how average our husbands' pasts are and now they are the ones
succeeding in their talents, most I would assume support their
families, financially and in unschooling.
Thank you all for sharing...
Chris
Mommy to Jason (8), Angela (6-1/2), Daniel (3-1/2) and soon-to-be #4!!
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/13/2001 9:32:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cmas100@... writes:
How true! It is an amazing and undervalued gift that we are giving to our
children. Everyday I thank God that we are able to afford me staying home to
care for our kids and for me to school Zak.
I, too, was in the g/t programs, 1300 on the SAT's and 4.0 in college. Yet
my average," just got by" husband with only half of college is the one to
support this family of five! LOL
Here's to all of us - and our many gifts!
Dawn
cmas100@... writes:
What a wonderful discussion! As I read through this, I realize how
many women had such similiar experiences in childhood & adolescence
in regard to "giftedness", and now how many of us now choose
motherhood and homeschooling as a lifestyle for ourselves and
children. I believe that our "giftedness" is now reflected in the
true gift we are giving our children by unschooling and choosing
family first!
How true! It is an amazing and undervalued gift that we are giving to our
children. Everyday I thank God that we are able to afford me staying home to
care for our kids and for me to school Zak.
I, too, was in the g/t programs, 1300 on the SAT's and 4.0 in college. Yet
my average," just got by" husband with only half of college is the one to
support this family of five! LOL
Here's to all of us - and our many gifts!
Dawn