Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Unschooling vs. laziness
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/23/00 2:03:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
yet_will_i_trust.him@... writes:
<< Dad works Mom stays in her room and sleeps/cry/or whatever...she has a lot
of depression. The kids are left on their own.
I just wonder if this is really unschooling or is it laziness? >>
Sounds to me like it isn't either one, but closer to unschooling depending on
how you define it. Most kids, and often even adults, need someone to help
facilitate their learning by helping them to find resources and use them.
It's also helpful to have someone with whom they can discuss ideas and who
can demonstrate how to generally get along in the world.
The ability to learn independently varies greatly among different people
depending on their personalities and their ages.
On the other hand, a person who is truly depressed needs assistance and will
have great difficulty being responsible for someone else. Depressed does not*
equal lazy. Depression is real and it is debilitating.
<<But he has seen this lady use unschooling to produce kids that are
disrespectful, unable to read, and distructive. I know there are bad apples
in every bunch. But you know once a bad taste is in there it is hard to get
it out.
can happen to any family.
Everyone who lives with and around a depressed parent can be affected.
Imagine spending each day with a person on whom you depend but who is
completely unavailable to you. It's easy to see how a child's attitude can be
affected, let alone his or her ability to read.
If these are close friends, perhaps you can find a way to help.
candice
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hold fast to dreams
For if dreams die
Life is a broken-winged bird
That cannot fly.
-Langston Hughes
yet_will_i_trust.him@... writes:
<< Dad works Mom stays in her room and sleeps/cry/or whatever...she has a lot
of depression. The kids are left on their own.
I just wonder if this is really unschooling or is it laziness? >>
Sounds to me like it isn't either one, but closer to unschooling depending on
how you define it. Most kids, and often even adults, need someone to help
facilitate their learning by helping them to find resources and use them.
It's also helpful to have someone with whom they can discuss ideas and who
can demonstrate how to generally get along in the world.
The ability to learn independently varies greatly among different people
depending on their personalities and their ages.
On the other hand, a person who is truly depressed needs assistance and will
have great difficulty being responsible for someone else. Depressed does not*
equal lazy. Depression is real and it is debilitating.
<<But he has seen this lady use unschooling to produce kids that are
disrespectful, unable to read, and distructive. I know there are bad apples
in every bunch. But you know once a bad taste is in there it is hard to get
it out.
>>These don't sound like bad apples. They sound like a family in crisis, which
can happen to any family.
Everyone who lives with and around a depressed parent can be affected.
Imagine spending each day with a person on whom you depend but who is
completely unavailable to you. It's easy to see how a child's attitude can be
affected, let alone his or her ability to read.
If these are close friends, perhaps you can find a way to help.
candice
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hold fast to dreams
For if dreams die
Life is a broken-winged bird
That cannot fly.
-Langston Hughes
Magdalena Hanson
With an e-mail address like _yet will I trust Him--I wonder why you would be
so judgmental. Christ came to heal--even the depressed---Have you led your
friends to trust Him or only shown a hypocritical Christianity? Maybe
unschooling or any type of schooling is not the priority in their family
right now, rather love which stands with them and offers help. Maybe
cleaning house or preparing a meal for the mom who for some reason can't get
beyond the tears today. Possibly that example would teach your child a
"lesson for the day" in compassion as well as unconditional love which I
believe all Christians are called to are they not?
Magdalena
so judgmental. Christ came to heal--even the depressed---Have you led your
friends to trust Him or only shown a hypocritical Christianity? Maybe
unschooling or any type of schooling is not the priority in their family
right now, rather love which stands with them and offers help. Maybe
cleaning house or preparing a meal for the mom who for some reason can't get
beyond the tears today. Possibly that example would teach your child a
"lesson for the day" in compassion as well as unconditional love which I
believe all Christians are called to are they not?
Magdalena
----- Original Message -----
From: <czuniga145@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Unschooling vs. laziness
> In a message dated 10/23/00 2:03:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> yet_will_i_trust.him@... writes:
>
> << Dad works Mom stays in her room and sleeps/cry/or whatever...she has a
lot
> of depression. The kids are left on their own.
>
> I just wonder if this is really unschooling or is it laziness? >>
>
> Sounds to me like it isn't either one, but closer to unschooling depending
on
> how you define it. Most kids, and often even adults, need someone to help
> facilitate their learning by helping them to find resources and use them.
> It's also helpful to have someone with whom they can discuss ideas and who
> can demonstrate how to generally get along in the world.
>
> The ability to learn independently varies greatly among different people
> depending on their personalities and their ages.
>
> On the other hand, a person who is truly depressed needs assistance and
will
> have great difficulty being responsible for someone else. Depressed does
not*
> equal lazy. Depression is real and it is debilitating.
>
> <<But he has seen this lady use unschooling to produce kids that are
> disrespectful, unable to read, and distructive. I know there are bad
apples
> in every bunch. But you know once a bad taste is in there it is hard to
get
> it out.
> >>
>
> These don't sound like bad apples. They sound like a family in crisis,
which
> can happen to any family.
>
> Everyone who lives with and around a depressed parent can be affected.
> Imagine spending each day with a person on whom you depend but who is
> completely unavailable to you. It's easy to see how a child's attitude can
be
> affected, let alone his or her ability to read.
>
>
> If these are close friends, perhaps you can find a way to help.
>
> candice
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Hold fast to dreams
> For if dreams die
> Life is a broken-winged bird
> That cannot fly.
> -Langston Hughes
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
Valerie
These don't sound like bad apples. They sound like a family in crisis, which
can happen to any family.
Everyone who lives with and around a depressed parent can be affected.
Imagine spending each day with a person on whom you depend but who is
completely unavailable to you. It's easy to see how a child's attitude can
be
affected, let alone his or her ability to read.
If these are close friends, perhaps you can find a way to help.
candice
I wanted to say I agree with Candice. Depression is debilitating. This
family needs support and shouldn't be used as a yardstick on what's "normal"
or not in unschooling. Sounds like the husband of the depressed woman is not
getting her the help she needs, as in medical help and also help at home.
Maybe he's in denial about it all. Have the children ever seen their mother
in any other condition? Imagine what that would do to them, growing up only
knowing a mother who closes herself in her room and cries...it would have
made me "difficult", too.
If this is the only unschooling family you know personally, hang out here
for awhile and/or get yourself into a local group and/or read about
unschooling. It will change your husband's perspective.
--valerie
can happen to any family.
Everyone who lives with and around a depressed parent can be affected.
Imagine spending each day with a person on whom you depend but who is
completely unavailable to you. It's easy to see how a child's attitude can
be
affected, let alone his or her ability to read.
If these are close friends, perhaps you can find a way to help.
candice
I wanted to say I agree with Candice. Depression is debilitating. This
family needs support and shouldn't be used as a yardstick on what's "normal"
or not in unschooling. Sounds like the husband of the depressed woman is not
getting her the help she needs, as in medical help and also help at home.
Maybe he's in denial about it all. Have the children ever seen their mother
in any other condition? Imagine what that would do to them, growing up only
knowing a mother who closes herself in her room and cries...it would have
made me "difficult", too.
If this is the only unschooling family you know personally, hang out here
for awhile and/or get yourself into a local group and/or read about
unschooling. It will change your husband's perspective.
--valerie
[email protected]
When a parent is clinically depressed, I'd rather see them unschooling than
taking their debilitated emotional state into a structured situation where
they might end up being emotionally abusive to a child about something as
dumb as spelling lists. And depression isn't made better by failure, or by
bad relationships, and so going through structured homeschooling motions (or
worse--a full-blown actual push to live school-at-home) would help nobody.
That type of homeschooling has a high failure rate.
If the family doesn't believe in psychiatry, my personal next recommendation
(not knowing them, and imagining the worst families I can, which isn't really
fair) would be for the kids to go to school. That way the mom could at least
sleep, and the kids could be around perky, smiling, optimistic people some of
the time. (And some bullies too, and some dimwits too, but the tradeoff
might be worth it in such a case.)
Sandra, just throwing stuff into a brainstorming session, not qualified to
comment on particulars
taking their debilitated emotional state into a structured situation where
they might end up being emotionally abusive to a child about something as
dumb as spelling lists. And depression isn't made better by failure, or by
bad relationships, and so going through structured homeschooling motions (or
worse--a full-blown actual push to live school-at-home) would help nobody.
That type of homeschooling has a high failure rate.
If the family doesn't believe in psychiatry, my personal next recommendation
(not knowing them, and imagining the worst families I can, which isn't really
fair) would be for the kids to go to school. That way the mom could at least
sleep, and the kids could be around perky, smiling, optimistic people some of
the time. (And some bullies too, and some dimwits too, but the tradeoff
might be worth it in such a case.)
Sandra, just throwing stuff into a brainstorming session, not qualified to
comment on particulars
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
...... and so going through structured homeschooling motions (or
Nanci K.
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>worse--a full-blown actual push to live school-at-home) would help >nobody. That type of homeschooling has a high failure rate.Do you have statistical information or a source I can refer to for this statement, or is it just an opinion? It would be great to be able to cite this to those uninformed family members that think it has to look, smell and act like school in order to be worthwhile.
>
>Sandra
Nanci K.
------------------------------------------------------------
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[email protected]
In a message dated 00-11-09 12:09:43 EST, you write:
<< Do you have statistical information or a source I can refer to for this
statement, or is it just an opinion? It would be great to be able to cite
this to those uninformed family members that think it has to look, smell and
act like school in order to be worthwhile. >>
It's somewhere between just an opinion and documentable.
Over the years I've been involved in homeschooling hundreds of families that
I've seen/heard from/read accounts from have gone from absolute structure to
looser/unschooling or put their kids back in school. A handful (fewer than
ten) that I know of/have read from have gone from unschooling to structure
(and I know of none that went to structure and loved it and stayed there).
Of those families that just flat give up, it seems highly full of accounts of
school-like school-at-home.
I don't think there ARE any stats on such things, and I'm not sure there
could be. So it's educated guess, informed anecdotal evidence, and I
probably should have qualified it as such. By "failure rate" I didn't mean
failure to produce text scores, but failure of the family to maintain that
lifestyle in peace and happiness.
Lots of families do.
So what WAS I trying to say? That of failures (if we could somehow amass a
set of homeschooling families who considered homeschooling to have failed,
and they gave up or changed their approach) it is, in my experience, often
the attempt at reproducing school at home which fails to create happy people
who believe in homeschooling.
If that approach worked, school would be the greatest learning environment in
the world.
Sandra
<< Do you have statistical information or a source I can refer to for this
statement, or is it just an opinion? It would be great to be able to cite
this to those uninformed family members that think it has to look, smell and
act like school in order to be worthwhile. >>
It's somewhere between just an opinion and documentable.
Over the years I've been involved in homeschooling hundreds of families that
I've seen/heard from/read accounts from have gone from absolute structure to
looser/unschooling or put their kids back in school. A handful (fewer than
ten) that I know of/have read from have gone from unschooling to structure
(and I know of none that went to structure and loved it and stayed there).
Of those families that just flat give up, it seems highly full of accounts of
school-like school-at-home.
I don't think there ARE any stats on such things, and I'm not sure there
could be. So it's educated guess, informed anecdotal evidence, and I
probably should have qualified it as such. By "failure rate" I didn't mean
failure to produce text scores, but failure of the family to maintain that
lifestyle in peace and happiness.
Lots of families do.
So what WAS I trying to say? That of failures (if we could somehow amass a
set of homeschooling families who considered homeschooling to have failed,
and they gave up or changed their approach) it is, in my experience, often
the attempt at reproducing school at home which fails to create happy people
who believe in homeschooling.
If that approach worked, school would be the greatest learning environment in
the world.
Sandra
Sarah Carothers
My experience has been like Sandra's.
The "school at home" people almost *all* have returned to the system within a
few years or less. OTOH, only one unschooling family gave it up that I've known.
(we've homeschooled for nearly 10 yrs now). So even though it would be difficult
to have a statistical count on this, I think a hand count via a poll using the
net would verify Sandra's position.
Sarah
----- Original Message -----From: SandraDodd@...Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 12:24 PMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Unschooling vs. lazinessIn a message dated 00-11-09 12:09:43 EST, you write:
<< Do you have statistical information or a source I can refer to for this
statement, or is it just an opinion? It would be great to be able to cite
this to those uninformed family members that think it has to look, smell and
act like school in order to be worthwhile. >>
It's somewhere between just an opinion and documentable.
Over the years I've been involved in homeschooling hundreds of families that
I've seen/heard from/read accounts from have gone from absolute structure to
looser/unschooling or put their kids back in school. A handful (fewer than
ten) that I know of/have read from have gone from unschooling to structure
(and I know of none that went to structure and loved it and stayed there).
Of those families that just flat give up, it seems highly full of accounts of
school-like school-at-home.
I don't think there ARE any stats on such things, and I'm not sure there
could be. So it's educated guess, informed anecdotal evidence, and I
probably should have qualified it as such. By "failure rate" I didn't mean
failure to produce text scores, but failure of the family to maintain that
lifestyle in peace and happiness.
Lots of families do.
So what WAS I trying to say? That of failures (if we could somehow amass a
set of homeschooling families who considered homeschooling to have failed,
and they gave up or changed their approach) it is, in my experience, often
the attempt at reproducing school at home which fails to create happy people
who believe in homeschooling.
If that approach worked, school would be the greatest learning environment in
the world.
Sandra
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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[email protected]
In a message dated 00-11-09 14:07:06 EST, you write:
<< By "failure rate" I didn't
mean
failure to produce text scores, but failure of the family to maintain that
lifestyle in peace and happiness. >>
I meant "test scores" (which you all probably already figured out, or read
"right" in the first place).
<< By "failure rate" I didn't
mean
failure to produce text scores, but failure of the family to maintain that
lifestyle in peace and happiness. >>
I meant "test scores" (which you all probably already figured out, or read
"right" in the first place).
David Albert
SandraDodd@... wrote:
thousands of homeschooling families coast to coast in my travels.
It is almost universally true that homeschooling families, even those of
fundamentalist persuasion (Christian or Moslem or Jewish) tend to loosen up as
time goes on -- some might even end up calling themselves unschoolers (I don't,
so I can provide some even-handed perspective).
There are three major exceptions that I've seen:
-- Somewhere in the homeschooling experience, parents find their child is
suffering from Asperger's Syndrome (a minor form of autism), or something akin to
ADHD and benefits from more structure.
-- A child (or parents) decides s/he needs to accomplish specific kinds of
tasks/courses, etc. for college or technical school entry, and finds it most
easily accomplished through structure.
-- A family gets larger quickly (multiple adoptions; a death of a sibling results
in children joining a new joint family, etc.), and the parents find unschooling
too exhausting.
There may be more exceptions, but the vast majority move the other way.
P.S. -- I'm going to be speaking at various locations in Florida (Orlando, West
Palm, Fort Lauderdale, etc.) E-mail me if you'd like details.
David
"This is as important a homeschooling book as has ever come out." -The Link. To
read a sample chapter or reviews of "And the Skylark Sings with Me", or to check
out my speaking schedule, visit my website -- www.skylarksings.com -- or send an
e-mail to shantinik@...
> In a message dated 00-11-09 12:09:43 EST, you write:Well, I guess I'm kind of an expert, having met and talked to literally
>
> << Do you have statistical information or a source I can refer to for this
> statement, or is it just an opinion? It would be great to be able to cite
> this to those uninformed family members that think it has to look, smell and
> act like school in order to be worthwhile. >>
>
> It's somewhere between just an opinion and documentable.
>
> Over the years I've been involved in homeschooling hundreds of families that
> I've seen/heard from/read accounts from have gone from absolute structure to
> looser/unschooling or put their kids back in school. A handful (fewer than
> ten) that I know of/have read from have gone from unschooling to structure
> (and I know of none that went to structure and loved it and stayed there).
thousands of homeschooling families coast to coast in my travels.
It is almost universally true that homeschooling families, even those of
fundamentalist persuasion (Christian or Moslem or Jewish) tend to loosen up as
time goes on -- some might even end up calling themselves unschoolers (I don't,
so I can provide some even-handed perspective).
There are three major exceptions that I've seen:
-- Somewhere in the homeschooling experience, parents find their child is
suffering from Asperger's Syndrome (a minor form of autism), or something akin to
ADHD and benefits from more structure.
-- A child (or parents) decides s/he needs to accomplish specific kinds of
tasks/courses, etc. for college or technical school entry, and finds it most
easily accomplished through structure.
-- A family gets larger quickly (multiple adoptions; a death of a sibling results
in children joining a new joint family, etc.), and the parents find unschooling
too exhausting.
There may be more exceptions, but the vast majority move the other way.
P.S. -- I'm going to be speaking at various locations in Florida (Orlando, West
Palm, Fort Lauderdale, etc.) E-mail me if you'd like details.
David
>--
>
> Of those families that just flat give up, it seems highly full of accounts of
> school-like school-at-home.
>
> I don't think there ARE any stats on such things, and I'm not sure there
> could be. So it's educated guess, informed anecdotal evidence, and I
> probably should have qualified it as such. By "failure rate" I didn't mean
> failure to produce text scores, but failure of the family to maintain that
> lifestyle in peace and happiness.
>
> Lots of families do.
>
> So what WAS I trying to say? That of failures (if we could somehow amass a
> set of homeschooling families who considered homeschooling to have failed,
> and they gave up or changed their approach) it is, in my experience, often
> the attempt at reproducing school at home which fails to create happy people
> who believe in homeschooling.
>
> If that approach worked, school would be the greatest learning environment in
> the world.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
"This is as important a homeschooling book as has ever come out." -The Link. To
read a sample chapter or reviews of "And the Skylark Sings with Me", or to check
out my speaking schedule, visit my website -- www.skylarksings.com -- or send an
e-mail to shantinik@...
Susan (mother to 5 in Fla)
David when & where are you speaking in Orlando?
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/09/2000 7:15:13 PM !!!First Boot!!!, SandraDodd@...
writes:
<<
<< By "failure rate" I didn't
mean
failure to produce text scores, but failure of the family to maintain that
lifestyle in peace and happiness. >>
I meant "test scores" (which you all probably already figured out, or read
"right" in the first place).
Nance
writes:
<<
<< By "failure rate" I didn't
mean
failure to produce text scores, but failure of the family to maintain that
lifestyle in peace and happiness. >>
I meant "test scores" (which you all probably already figured out, or read
"right" in the first place).
>>I'll bet if you were in school, you would know how to spell test!! :)
Nance
David Albert
"Susan (mother to 5 in Fla)" wrote:
told) on Sunday, January 7th, at 1:15 p.m., sponsored by the Homeschool
Network of Orlando. Childcare is provided. There will be a reception
afterwards (with hors d'ouerves, I'm told.)
The contact person is Lyn Milum Lyn Milum <forest5@...>
They ask that you sign up in advance.
http://www.homestead.com/homeschoolnetwork/intro.html
Hope to see you there!
david
--
"This is as important a homeschooling book as has ever come out." -The Link.
To read a sample chapter or reviews of "And the Skylark Sings with Me", or
to check out my speaking schedule, visit my website -- www.skylarksings.com
-- or send an e-mail to shantinik@...
> David when & where are you speaking in Orlando?At the Lake Mary Community Center (which is a little north of Orlando, I'm
told) on Sunday, January 7th, at 1:15 p.m., sponsored by the Homeschool
Network of Orlando. Childcare is provided. There will be a reception
afterwards (with hors d'ouerves, I'm told.)
The contact person is Lyn Milum Lyn Milum <forest5@...>
They ask that you sign up in advance.
http://www.homestead.com/homeschoolnetwork/intro.html
Hope to see you there!
david
--
"This is as important a homeschooling book as has ever come out." -The Link.
To read a sample chapter or reviews of "And the Skylark Sings with Me", or
to check out my speaking schedule, visit my website -- www.skylarksings.com
-- or send an e-mail to shantinik@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 00-11-09 18:28:20 EST, you write:
<< I'll bet if you were in school, you would know how to spell test!! :) >>
Oh yeah!?
I bet if I hadn't been writing about schooly-stuff, I wouldn't have
accidently typed "text"! <g>
<< I'll bet if you were in school, you would know how to spell test!! :) >>
Oh yeah!?
I bet if I hadn't been writing about schooly-stuff, I wouldn't have
accidently typed "text"! <g>
Carol Burke
David wrote:
This is really interesting to me, because I am still
in the trying hard to relax more about homeschooling
category, but when I read your exceptions, I realize
that our family kind of fits into to all three of
these...
-I have a 7 year old with major attention/focus
problems who would most likely be diagnosed ADHD if I
let him be.
-My eldest at 14 has real aspirations toward an
advanced degree in the Math and Science field; she's
even leaning toward medical school
-My family has grown from three children to seven in
the eight years we've been homeschooling. Even though
that might not be as rapidly as some...it has produced
exhaustion in this Mom.
I've been really tempted, especially with these
circumstances, to turn back to more structure, but I
know what a more "unschooled" focus has done for our
family as far as creativity, so I keep hanging in
there. Believe me, though, sometimes I want to dive
back into those boxed curricula, just to bring some
order into our lives!
I do have to say that though I agree with Sandra's
comments, I know a lot of people who stick with the
school at home mode through years and years. But,
what I look at are the children. Maybe they are
testing well, but at what price? While I can't judge
anyone else's situation, I see a lot of anger produced
in some of these very controlled situations and I just
gotta believe that somehow, somewhere, sometime, that
rebellious spirit is going to come out.
I think the path to the inner spirit is the road less
travelled and though cirumstances make living that way
more difficult-it's definitely what I want my kids to
possess when they leave home. Whether you call that
"unschooling" or simply learning to listen to your
inner voice, to me it means letting go of control and
sometimes structure in order to let children find
their own voices within.
Hope this makes a bit of sense...I'm pretty
bleary-eyed right now!
Have a peaceful Sunday, all!
Carol B.
>David-
> There are three major exceptions that I've seen:
> -- Somewhere in the homeschooling experience,
> parents find their child is
> suffering from Asperger's Syndrome (a minor form of
> autism), or something akin to
> ADHD and benefits from more structure.
> -- A child (or parents) decides s/he needs to
> accomplish specific kinds of
> tasks/courses, etc. for college or technical school
> entry, and finds it most
> easily accomplished through structure.
> -- A family gets larger quickly (multiple adoptions;
> a death of a sibling results
> in children joining a new joint family, etc.), and
> the parents find unschooling
> too exhausting.
This is really interesting to me, because I am still
in the trying hard to relax more about homeschooling
category, but when I read your exceptions, I realize
that our family kind of fits into to all three of
these...
-I have a 7 year old with major attention/focus
problems who would most likely be diagnosed ADHD if I
let him be.
-My eldest at 14 has real aspirations toward an
advanced degree in the Math and Science field; she's
even leaning toward medical school
-My family has grown from three children to seven in
the eight years we've been homeschooling. Even though
that might not be as rapidly as some...it has produced
exhaustion in this Mom.
I've been really tempted, especially with these
circumstances, to turn back to more structure, but I
know what a more "unschooled" focus has done for our
family as far as creativity, so I keep hanging in
there. Believe me, though, sometimes I want to dive
back into those boxed curricula, just to bring some
order into our lives!
I do have to say that though I agree with Sandra's
comments, I know a lot of people who stick with the
school at home mode through years and years. But,
what I look at are the children. Maybe they are
testing well, but at what price? While I can't judge
anyone else's situation, I see a lot of anger produced
in some of these very controlled situations and I just
gotta believe that somehow, somewhere, sometime, that
rebellious spirit is going to come out.
I think the path to the inner spirit is the road less
travelled and though cirumstances make living that way
more difficult-it's definitely what I want my kids to
possess when they leave home. Whether you call that
"unschooling" or simply learning to listen to your
inner voice, to me it means letting go of control and
sometimes structure in order to let children find
their own voices within.
Hope this makes a bit of sense...I'm pretty
bleary-eyed right now!
Have a peaceful Sunday, all!
Carol B.
[email protected]
In a message dated 00-11-11 23:18:38 EST, Burkfamily9@... writes:
<< -I have a 7 year old with major attention/focus
problems who would most likely be diagnosed ADHD if I
let him be. >>
This one, I think, is a prime NON-structure candidate.
<< -I have a 7 year old with major attention/focus
problems who would most likely be diagnosed ADHD if I
let him be. >>
This one, I think, is a prime NON-structure candidate.
Margaret Towson
Sandra, could you elaborate on this thinking a little? I tend to agree, but
I can't articulate exactly why...
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I can't articulate exactly why...
><< -I have a 7 year old with major attention/focus_________________________________________________________________________
> problems who would most likely be diagnosed ADHD if I
> let him be. >>
>
>This one, I think, is a prime NON-structure candidate.
>
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Carol Burke
Sandra wrote:
rejected structure since Day 1. This child was my
experiment into total unschooling even before I knew
what it was.
He's always shocking me. Everything he has learned
has been on his own timetable and from his own
devices.
He's writing a book on the computer. This is teaching
him to read and spell...things that he says he does
NOT want to know. He keeps stats for every NFL
football game (especially the Packers...we are from
Wisconsin. He does mulitiplication, division,
addition and subtraction in his head, but if I write
down the problems, he looks at me as if I'm a nut
expecting him to do such "hard" work. He records play
by play imaginary football games on his tape recorder
in the basement and draws sheets of illustrations to
go with them. His latest fascination is King Tut's
tomb and all things Egyptian, so he wrote a letter to
his aunt all in heiroglyphics. He would watch
television or play on the computer for hours at a
time.
He has a wholly innocent way of looking at life which
makes us smile often!
The down side is...
He doesn't tie his shoes, zip his coat or pay much
attention to where anything goes. He has a very low
tolerance level and is always griping about others
being out to "get him." He eats like a horse and
constantly requires good whole food because he burns
up calories so fast. He played organized sports for
the first time this Fall (soccer) and though he talked
like he was the star, he really had a tough time just
staying in position (or even on the field, for that
matter). He loved it so much, that we let him play,
and thank God he had a wonderful coach who made it a
great experience.
The funny thing is that these are the type of kids
that everybody says...structure, structure, structure
for and my relatives tend to think I'm doing him a
disservice by keeping him at home. And you know, even
though this one of all my kids frustrates me the most,
he's the one who I know I have to do this for...I
would fight anybody tooth and nail who tried to take
away his special-ness and make him conform.
Thanks for listening, all. I guess I need to de-lurk
for awhile! Lots of thoughts boiling in the pot
upstairs!
Have a good one-
Carol
> This one, I think, is a prime NON-structureYou're right on the money, there, Sandra. He has
> candidate.
rejected structure since Day 1. This child was my
experiment into total unschooling even before I knew
what it was.
He's always shocking me. Everything he has learned
has been on his own timetable and from his own
devices.
He's writing a book on the computer. This is teaching
him to read and spell...things that he says he does
NOT want to know. He keeps stats for every NFL
football game (especially the Packers...we are from
Wisconsin. He does mulitiplication, division,
addition and subtraction in his head, but if I write
down the problems, he looks at me as if I'm a nut
expecting him to do such "hard" work. He records play
by play imaginary football games on his tape recorder
in the basement and draws sheets of illustrations to
go with them. His latest fascination is King Tut's
tomb and all things Egyptian, so he wrote a letter to
his aunt all in heiroglyphics. He would watch
television or play on the computer for hours at a
time.
He has a wholly innocent way of looking at life which
makes us smile often!
The down side is...
He doesn't tie his shoes, zip his coat or pay much
attention to where anything goes. He has a very low
tolerance level and is always griping about others
being out to "get him." He eats like a horse and
constantly requires good whole food because he burns
up calories so fast. He played organized sports for
the first time this Fall (soccer) and though he talked
like he was the star, he really had a tough time just
staying in position (or even on the field, for that
matter). He loved it so much, that we let him play,
and thank God he had a wonderful coach who made it a
great experience.
The funny thing is that these are the type of kids
that everybody says...structure, structure, structure
for and my relatives tend to think I'm doing him a
disservice by keeping him at home. And you know, even
though this one of all my kids frustrates me the most,
he's the one who I know I have to do this for...I
would fight anybody tooth and nail who tried to take
away his special-ness and make him conform.
Thanks for listening, all. I guess I need to de-lurk
for awhile! Lots of thoughts boiling in the pot
upstairs!
Have a good one-
Carol
LisaKK
Carol, you made quite a bit of sense! To value that road to inner spirit
more than the surface calm of imposed structure is rare indeed. I do think
though that part of the path is coming to a much deeper level of calm, which
will ripple to the surface.
Lisa
more than the surface calm of imposed structure is rare indeed. I do think
though that part of the path is coming to a much deeper level of calm, which
will ripple to the surface.
Lisa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carol Burke" <Burkfamily9@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Unschooling vs. laziness
>
> David wrote:
> >
> > There are three major exceptions that I've seen:
> > -- Somewhere in the homeschooling experience,
> > parents find their child is
> > suffering from Asperger's Syndrome (a minor form of
> > autism), or something akin to
> > ADHD and benefits from more structure.
> > -- A child (or parents) decides s/he needs to
> > accomplish specific kinds of
> > tasks/courses, etc. for college or technical school
> > entry, and finds it most
> > easily accomplished through structure.
> > -- A family gets larger quickly (multiple adoptions;
> > a death of a sibling results
> > in children joining a new joint family, etc.), and
> > the parents find unschooling
> > too exhausting.
>
> David-
>
> This is really interesting to me, because I am still
> in the trying hard to relax more about homeschooling
> category, but when I read your exceptions, I realize
> that our family kind of fits into to all three of
> these...
>
> -I have a 7 year old with major attention/focus
> problems who would most likely be diagnosed ADHD if I
> let him be.
> -My eldest at 14 has real aspirations toward an
> advanced degree in the Math and Science field; she's
> even leaning toward medical school
>
> -My family has grown from three children to seven in
> the eight years we've been homeschooling. Even though
> that might not be as rapidly as some...it has produced
> exhaustion in this Mom.
>
> I've been really tempted, especially with these
> circumstances, to turn back to more structure, but I
> know what a more "unschooled" focus has done for our
> family as far as creativity, so I keep hanging in
> there. Believe me, though, sometimes I want to dive
> back into those boxed curricula, just to bring some
> order into our lives!
>
> I do have to say that though I agree with Sandra's
> comments, I know a lot of people who stick with the
> school at home mode through years and years. But,
> what I look at are the children. Maybe they are
> testing well, but at what price? While I can't judge
> anyone else's situation, I see a lot of anger produced
> in some of these very controlled situations and I just
> gotta believe that somehow, somewhere, sometime, that
> rebellious spirit is going to come out.
>
> I think the path to the inner spirit is the road less
> travelled and though cirumstances make living that way
> more difficult-it's definitely what I want my kids to
> possess when they leave home. Whether you call that
> "unschooling" or simply learning to listen to your
> inner voice, to me it means letting go of control and
> sometimes structure in order to let children find
> their own voices within.
>
> Hope this makes a bit of sense...I'm pretty
> bleary-eyed right now!
> Have a peaceful Sunday, all!
> Carol B.
>
>
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>
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>
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In a message dated 00-11-13 09:49:10 EST, you write:
<< << -I have a 7 year old with major attention/focus
problems who would most likely be diagnosed ADHD if I
let him be. >>
This one, I think, is a prime NON-structure candidate. >>
ADHD is often an extreme reaction to the structure of school. Then school
treats it like a big "condition" which requires drugs and special education
intervention, when all they'd need to do would be to quit trying to put that
quick-thinking, busy spinning-round peg in that dull square hole.
ADD and ADHD are more baffling than the simple "hyperactive" or "does not pay
attention" (which are in English, not jargon, and therefore can be discussed
by laymen, so the education experts take that language back and call them
secret names so we won't understand anything about it).
I have always been that way myself. I did my work and then did other
things--read, made things with paper and glue, or wrote, or did things less
productive. Lots of home-job tattoos came out of my school (I didn't have or
make any but I saw a lot), and desks were carved and kids cut themselves to
make interesting scars or just to bleed to get out of class (I used to teach
Jr. High; I vividly remember BEING in Jr. High), and whole storage shelves or
drawers of desks were filled up with sunflower seed shells, or interesting
chewing gum formations. That was all caused by the teachers expecting kids
to sit still for 55 minutes, and ideally to take the same amount of time to
the minute to read their stupid chapter and answer their stupid questions (or
whatever).
In an environment in which finishing a task is GOOD, and not a sign of
troublemaking or a lack of checking one's work, then a child can go on to
something else, and that jittery "must DO something" activity never needs to
show up.
On the other side of the same coin, a child (same kind of child) who can
become obsessively fascinated with a book or a project doesn't get
interrupted by the Bell from Hell within an hour and get force marched to
another room to spin straw from gold for another 55 minutes. (Okay, I dibs
that as a book title or at least a chapter title---everyone else leave it for
mine. "Spinning Straw from Gold" copyright Sandra Dodd [unless anyone knows
of it already being published].)
If a child who might (in school) be called hyperactive (or some jargonish
version thereof) is allowed to change tasks or stay on one task indefinitely,
there will be no symptoms to see.
Sandra
<< << -I have a 7 year old with major attention/focus
problems who would most likely be diagnosed ADHD if I
let him be. >>
This one, I think, is a prime NON-structure candidate. >>
ADHD is often an extreme reaction to the structure of school. Then school
treats it like a big "condition" which requires drugs and special education
intervention, when all they'd need to do would be to quit trying to put that
quick-thinking, busy spinning-round peg in that dull square hole.
ADD and ADHD are more baffling than the simple "hyperactive" or "does not pay
attention" (which are in English, not jargon, and therefore can be discussed
by laymen, so the education experts take that language back and call them
secret names so we won't understand anything about it).
I have always been that way myself. I did my work and then did other
things--read, made things with paper and glue, or wrote, or did things less
productive. Lots of home-job tattoos came out of my school (I didn't have or
make any but I saw a lot), and desks were carved and kids cut themselves to
make interesting scars or just to bleed to get out of class (I used to teach
Jr. High; I vividly remember BEING in Jr. High), and whole storage shelves or
drawers of desks were filled up with sunflower seed shells, or interesting
chewing gum formations. That was all caused by the teachers expecting kids
to sit still for 55 minutes, and ideally to take the same amount of time to
the minute to read their stupid chapter and answer their stupid questions (or
whatever).
In an environment in which finishing a task is GOOD, and not a sign of
troublemaking or a lack of checking one's work, then a child can go on to
something else, and that jittery "must DO something" activity never needs to
show up.
On the other side of the same coin, a child (same kind of child) who can
become obsessively fascinated with a book or a project doesn't get
interrupted by the Bell from Hell within an hour and get force marched to
another room to spin straw from gold for another 55 minutes. (Okay, I dibs
that as a book title or at least a chapter title---everyone else leave it for
mine. "Spinning Straw from Gold" copyright Sandra Dodd [unless anyone knows
of it already being published].)
If a child who might (in school) be called hyperactive (or some jargonish
version thereof) is allowed to change tasks or stay on one task indefinitely,
there will be no symptoms to see.
Sandra
Carol Burke
Lisa wrote:
Thanks, Lisa. I do value that road, but I haven't yet
embraced the path to it! And right now I want the
surface calm so badly that I could scream. I don't
like the murkiness of uncharted waters! Thanks for
your encouragement!
Carol B.
Thanks, Lisa. I do value that road, but I haven't yet
embraced the path to it! And right now I want the
surface calm so badly that I could scream. I don't
like the murkiness of uncharted waters! Thanks for
your encouragement!
>>To value thatTake care-
> road to inner spirit
> more than the surface calm of imposed structure is
> rare indeed. I do think
> though that part of the path is coming to a much
> deeper level of calm, which
> will ripple to the surface.>>
Carol B.
>
Kathryn B Cauley
Carol Burke-
it is so nice to read your stories
they delight me
sounds like you have a very special one you have been gifted with
i don't believe this happened by accident
Continue to fight tooth and nail- you are right
I hope you can learn to ignore those tidbits that don't really matter,
Some of the best people I know do good just to get shoes on much less tie
them-
buy slip-ons!
Happy Holidays
Kathy
________________________________________________________________
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it is so nice to read your stories
they delight me
sounds like you have a very special one you have been gifted with
i don't believe this happened by accident
Continue to fight tooth and nail- you are right
I hope you can learn to ignore those tidbits that don't really matter,
Some of the best people I know do good just to get shoes on much less tie
them-
buy slip-ons!
Happy Holidays
Kathy
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/14/00 8:03:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< I did my work and then did other
things--read, made things with paper and glue, or wrote, or did things less
productive. Lots of home-job tattoos came out of my school (I didn't have
or
make any but I saw a lot), and desks were carved and kids cut themselves to
make interesting scars or just to bleed to get out of class >>
This was me too. I remember reading ahead, doing all my homework in class,
writing notes. Never ran into the home job tatoos, but I did once pierce a
senior
guy's ear at lunch in 9th grade (this was after it got out that I had double
pierced
my own ears at home, did a darn good job too LOL, although the 3rd set I had
done with one of those little machines, quicker!) I was just biding my time
in
school...yeah the honor roll student who partied at lunch, smoked in the
bathrooms, left campus, but everyone liked me including my teachers and
counselors because I got good grades and was such a good kid. Oh well,
off topic of the original post, just felt like responding to the tatoo remark
I
guess ; )
Kathy
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< I did my work and then did other
things--read, made things with paper and glue, or wrote, or did things less
productive. Lots of home-job tattoos came out of my school (I didn't have
or
make any but I saw a lot), and desks were carved and kids cut themselves to
make interesting scars or just to bleed to get out of class >>
This was me too. I remember reading ahead, doing all my homework in class,
writing notes. Never ran into the home job tatoos, but I did once pierce a
senior
guy's ear at lunch in 9th grade (this was after it got out that I had double
pierced
my own ears at home, did a darn good job too LOL, although the 3rd set I had
done with one of those little machines, quicker!) I was just biding my time
in
school...yeah the honor roll student who partied at lunch, smoked in the
bathrooms, left campus, but everyone liked me including my teachers and
counselors because I got good grades and was such a good kid. Oh well,
off topic of the original post, just felt like responding to the tatoo remark
I
guess ; )
Kathy