Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Friends in the neighborhood
[email protected]
Carron,
It is funny that you just brought this point up. We just got back from
visiting with my SIL and her family because they just bought a new house.
The house of course is beautiful, but when we went outside I just got the
most strange feeling. Either way I looked up or down the street, it seemed
endless. Endless rows of cookie cutter houses and I could just imagine
Monday morning when all the cars pull out of the driveways and then the buses
come to pick up all the kids and no one will be home until 7 or so that night
because of after care or after school activities.
Even though I went to ps the neighborhood I grew up in seems so different
from what I see today. All the neighborhood kids (and there were a lot) were
out and about after school and we played (kids of all ages) until dark. We
live in an older neighborhood and the only kids my kids ages are in day care
and school. But our neighbor is a grandma and she is very active in her
garden so we hang out with her and the kids love getting fresh stuff from her
garden. SHe also has grandkids.
I imagine that once I start getting active with the h/s group in my area my
kids will find playmates among those kids. From their newsletter the group
seems very active with lots planned.
Sandy
It is funny that you just brought this point up. We just got back from
visiting with my SIL and her family because they just bought a new house.
The house of course is beautiful, but when we went outside I just got the
most strange feeling. Either way I looked up or down the street, it seemed
endless. Endless rows of cookie cutter houses and I could just imagine
Monday morning when all the cars pull out of the driveways and then the buses
come to pick up all the kids and no one will be home until 7 or so that night
because of after care or after school activities.
Even though I went to ps the neighborhood I grew up in seems so different
from what I see today. All the neighborhood kids (and there were a lot) were
out and about after school and we played (kids of all ages) until dark. We
live in an older neighborhood and the only kids my kids ages are in day care
and school. But our neighbor is a grandma and she is very active in her
garden so we hang out with her and the kids love getting fresh stuff from her
garden. SHe also has grandkids.
I imagine that once I start getting active with the h/s group in my area my
kids will find playmates among those kids. From their newsletter the group
seems very active with lots planned.
Sandy
dawn
we live in an apartment complex and have way more yard space than most
people in houses (although absolutely NO privacy). There are loads of
kids who live in this area (and in the surounding complexes) but I don't
particularly want my sons to play with them as they are rather "rough"
kids (OK, some are really BAD to the point that police officers have had
to ride the school busses). But, back int he corner where we live, for
some reason, most families do NOT have children. Used to be different,
but the demographics have changed in the past 3 years. My sons have one
little boy who lives across from us that they play with and he's fine.
So, my guyz mainly play with each other, which is what I prefer. And we
arrange playdates with other hs'ers on a regular basis. My oldest son is
2nd grade age and he has two schooled friends, one who started 1st grade
this year and that's really sad because now he's in school all day and
it's that much harder for them to get together.
My boyz did both ask to take art classes at the local university this
semestester instead of the homeschooling art coop because one wants to
make some new friends (his are all in school--he's nver clicked with many
people and the ones he has are all schoolers, the hs'ed kids his age bore
him) and the other because taking classes iwth strangers makes it easier
for him to concentrate:/
dawn h-s
" "I am a woman here on planet Earth
I have the breath of life in me, a gift given at birth
No one, no body, no powers that be
Can ever, ever, ever take this gift away from me."
--Ruth Pelham
people in houses (although absolutely NO privacy). There are loads of
kids who live in this area (and in the surounding complexes) but I don't
particularly want my sons to play with them as they are rather "rough"
kids (OK, some are really BAD to the point that police officers have had
to ride the school busses). But, back int he corner where we live, for
some reason, most families do NOT have children. Used to be different,
but the demographics have changed in the past 3 years. My sons have one
little boy who lives across from us that they play with and he's fine.
So, my guyz mainly play with each other, which is what I prefer. And we
arrange playdates with other hs'ers on a regular basis. My oldest son is
2nd grade age and he has two schooled friends, one who started 1st grade
this year and that's really sad because now he's in school all day and
it's that much harder for them to get together.
My boyz did both ask to take art classes at the local university this
semestester instead of the homeschooling art coop because one wants to
make some new friends (his are all in school--he's nver clicked with many
people and the ones he has are all schoolers, the hs'ed kids his age bore
him) and the other because taking classes iwth strangers makes it easier
for him to concentrate:/
dawn h-s
" "I am a woman here on planet Earth
I have the breath of life in me, a gift given at birth
No one, no body, no powers that be
Can ever, ever, ever take this gift away from me."
--Ruth Pelham
Sonia Ulan
I am forever disgusted with the lack of "socialization" and certainly
"social graces" of public-schooled children. My three children ages 11,
8 and almost 2 are their own bestfriends and I am so grateful for that.
Try as they might to fit in with the tons of other kids in our
neighbourhood there is only one 8 year old who'll play with my three.
Everyone else seems so bleeding exclusive and clique-y. It's pitiful to
see actually. And there's definitely the phenomenon of 10 year old boys
only playing with other 10 year old boys, and 9 year old girls only
playing with other 9 year old girls...etc...I can't believe how the
world seems to enjoy limiting itself!
We are in a HS playgroup on a limited basis and I have my kids enrolled
in other extra-curricular activities. I don't find karate, dancing,
swimming or drama classes any different than public school situations.
My kids are often having to entertain themselves...It would probably
really get me down if I wasn't so darned impressed with my children in
just about every social situation they encounter. They have approached
and politely communicated with young and old alike, both sexes, famous
or infamous and almost always excel "in the real world". I also think
they are better creative thinkers and not afraid to be who they are.
They are not easily manipulated by others either. If these are the
merits to limited social contact with their own peers, I am all for it!
Come to think of it, I don't think too many adults who are products of
the PS/mainstream system (and that includes myself and just about
everyone I know!), fare any better socially than their PS'd and
socially-retarded children! It's a system doomed for failure! No
wonder so many individuals have social interaction challenges on the job
too!
Thanks for letting me spew...
Sonia
"social graces" of public-schooled children. My three children ages 11,
8 and almost 2 are their own bestfriends and I am so grateful for that.
Try as they might to fit in with the tons of other kids in our
neighbourhood there is only one 8 year old who'll play with my three.
Everyone else seems so bleeding exclusive and clique-y. It's pitiful to
see actually. And there's definitely the phenomenon of 10 year old boys
only playing with other 10 year old boys, and 9 year old girls only
playing with other 9 year old girls...etc...I can't believe how the
world seems to enjoy limiting itself!
We are in a HS playgroup on a limited basis and I have my kids enrolled
in other extra-curricular activities. I don't find karate, dancing,
swimming or drama classes any different than public school situations.
My kids are often having to entertain themselves...It would probably
really get me down if I wasn't so darned impressed with my children in
just about every social situation they encounter. They have approached
and politely communicated with young and old alike, both sexes, famous
or infamous and almost always excel "in the real world". I also think
they are better creative thinkers and not afraid to be who they are.
They are not easily manipulated by others either. If these are the
merits to limited social contact with their own peers, I am all for it!
Come to think of it, I don't think too many adults who are products of
the PS/mainstream system (and that includes myself and just about
everyone I know!), fare any better socially than their PS'd and
socially-retarded children! It's a system doomed for failure! No
wonder so many individuals have social interaction challenges on the job
too!
Thanks for letting me spew...
Sonia
M & J Welch
Sonia, your post about your children and their socialization experiences
with public schooled children confirms my family's experience. We also live
in a neighborhood filled with psed kids, and I, too, am amazed at the lack
of real life social skills the average school child appears to have. Here's
an example from just last week-my son and the next door neighbor are pretty
good friends, except for when other public school kids come to play. This
friend is 2 years older than my ds. In public school it's pretty
unacceptable for a 9 year old to play with a 7 year old, so when other psed
kids come around, as happened the other day, suddenly my son is a "baby" and
only wants to play "stupid girly baby games".
So, last week ds and his friend are playing together and having lots of fun.
I looked out the window and noticed a couple kids had joined them-they
looked okay so I went on with my work. A few minutes later ds comes into
the house visibly upset. He said to me "Mom, the new kid said he hated me!"
We talked about that for a minute (me: well who is that kid? ds: I don't
know him. me: then he doesn't know you either, right? ds: no. me: so how
can he hate you? he doesn't even know you. he's just being a silly kid.)
then I thought to ask-well did your friend stick up for you? Ds said no.
Well that didn't surprize me, but I also asked ds-Did your friend say
*anything*? Ds answered-I asked him if he hated me, too, and he said
'maybe'. Ugh!
Well-then we ended up talking about peer pressure (again). Later that day
the neighbor psed boys wanted to play bike tag and ds didn't want to. He
came home upset again and said they called him a baby. I asked why. He
said it was because he didn't want to play bike tag. Weeeelll! I was proud
of him and told him so. Dh was right there, and he expressed how glad he
was that ds did what he wanted to do no matter what the other kids said.
Peer pressure is insidious-it can involve itself in nearly every interaction
between psed children. What's so great about being a homeschooling family
is that the triumphs and losses of my children's socialization experiences
are witnessed by me and dh. We were there for him when he needed us to
confirm his decisions, to support him when he was feeling unhappy. I feel
sorry for the psed kids who have to face learning socialization at school on
their own with no loving adult or family member to support and confirm them.
When you stop to consider the type of socialization the institutional school
setting provides, it's really no wonder things like cliques and "trenchcoat
mafia" kids exist. They feel the need to protect themselves somehow-so they
try to mimic the institution of the family outside of the home. Without the
wisdom of adult guidance and family tradition, their groups end up
resembling gangs (groups assembling based on fear) rather than clubs
(friends gathering based on mutual affection and interests).
So its good to know I'm not alone-that there are other hs families who have
to deal with psed kids and the institutionalized discrimination they learn
at school. What's so funny about all this (not ha ha, but funny ironic) is
that those who think homeschooling is wrong often state that children who
are homeschooled learn to discriminate because they are not exposed to
people of differing backgrounds. What a bunch of hooey. If they would just
take one minute to really examine the ps system, and reflect on their own
institutional school experience, then maybe they'd realise there's *more*
discrimination and bigotry inherent in the institutional schooling
experience than in nearly any private family tradition or practice.
Lee
with public schooled children confirms my family's experience. We also live
in a neighborhood filled with psed kids, and I, too, am amazed at the lack
of real life social skills the average school child appears to have. Here's
an example from just last week-my son and the next door neighbor are pretty
good friends, except for when other public school kids come to play. This
friend is 2 years older than my ds. In public school it's pretty
unacceptable for a 9 year old to play with a 7 year old, so when other psed
kids come around, as happened the other day, suddenly my son is a "baby" and
only wants to play "stupid girly baby games".
So, last week ds and his friend are playing together and having lots of fun.
I looked out the window and noticed a couple kids had joined them-they
looked okay so I went on with my work. A few minutes later ds comes into
the house visibly upset. He said to me "Mom, the new kid said he hated me!"
We talked about that for a minute (me: well who is that kid? ds: I don't
know him. me: then he doesn't know you either, right? ds: no. me: so how
can he hate you? he doesn't even know you. he's just being a silly kid.)
then I thought to ask-well did your friend stick up for you? Ds said no.
Well that didn't surprize me, but I also asked ds-Did your friend say
*anything*? Ds answered-I asked him if he hated me, too, and he said
'maybe'. Ugh!
Well-then we ended up talking about peer pressure (again). Later that day
the neighbor psed boys wanted to play bike tag and ds didn't want to. He
came home upset again and said they called him a baby. I asked why. He
said it was because he didn't want to play bike tag. Weeeelll! I was proud
of him and told him so. Dh was right there, and he expressed how glad he
was that ds did what he wanted to do no matter what the other kids said.
Peer pressure is insidious-it can involve itself in nearly every interaction
between psed children. What's so great about being a homeschooling family
is that the triumphs and losses of my children's socialization experiences
are witnessed by me and dh. We were there for him when he needed us to
confirm his decisions, to support him when he was feeling unhappy. I feel
sorry for the psed kids who have to face learning socialization at school on
their own with no loving adult or family member to support and confirm them.
When you stop to consider the type of socialization the institutional school
setting provides, it's really no wonder things like cliques and "trenchcoat
mafia" kids exist. They feel the need to protect themselves somehow-so they
try to mimic the institution of the family outside of the home. Without the
wisdom of adult guidance and family tradition, their groups end up
resembling gangs (groups assembling based on fear) rather than clubs
(friends gathering based on mutual affection and interests).
So its good to know I'm not alone-that there are other hs families who have
to deal with psed kids and the institutionalized discrimination they learn
at school. What's so funny about all this (not ha ha, but funny ironic) is
that those who think homeschooling is wrong often state that children who
are homeschooled learn to discriminate because they are not exposed to
people of differing backgrounds. What a bunch of hooey. If they would just
take one minute to really examine the ps system, and reflect on their own
institutional school experience, then maybe they'd realise there's *more*
discrimination and bigotry inherent in the institutional schooling
experience than in nearly any private family tradition or practice.
Lee
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/9/2000 10:24:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
Broadcolea@... writes:
sometimes think it would be nice if the kids could just strike out into the
neighborhood in the afternoons like we did.
Carron
Broadcolea@... writes:
> I imagine that once I start getting active with the h/s group in my area mygroup
> kids will find playmates among those kids. From their newsletter the
> seems very active with lots planned.That's where our friends are too. We don't want for "socialization" but I
>
> Sandy
sometimes think it would be nice if the kids could just strike out into the
neighborhood in the afternoons like we did.
Carron
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/11/2000 5:40:57 AM Central Daylight Time, sulan@...
writes:
play only with children who are the same age. That's one thing that
impressed me about our hs group. All the kids play with all the other kids.
Age matters little. And the kids consider the adults to be friends and fair
game too.
Carron
writes:
> Thanks for letting me spew...Oh, I agree with you 100%. It's such a shame that so many children want to
>
> Sonia
play only with children who are the same age. That's one thing that
impressed me about our hs group. All the kids play with all the other kids.
Age matters little. And the kids consider the adults to be friends and fair
game too.
Carron
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/11/00 9:40:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Cararmst@...
writes:
<< Oh, I agree with you 100%. It's such a shame that so many children want
to
play only with children who are the same age. That's one thing that
impressed me about our hs group. All the kids play with all the other kids.
Age matters little. And the kids consider the adults to be friends and fair
game too. >>
We're very fortunate in this respect. Our newest neighbors have a 15yo son,
and 12 and 8yo daughters. They come out and play with even the littlest kids,
and they are **great** with them. I have been so impressed with them. Yes,
they are public school children. I think that public school children will
only pick up and perpetuate the age discrimination attitude if it is allowed
in the family.
candice
writes:
<< Oh, I agree with you 100%. It's such a shame that so many children want
to
play only with children who are the same age. That's one thing that
impressed me about our hs group. All the kids play with all the other kids.
Age matters little. And the kids consider the adults to be friends and fair
game too. >>
We're very fortunate in this respect. Our newest neighbors have a 15yo son,
and 12 and 8yo daughters. They come out and play with even the littlest kids,
and they are **great** with them. I have been so impressed with them. Yes,
they are public school children. I think that public school children will
only pick up and perpetuate the age discrimination attitude if it is allowed
in the family.
candice
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
>Thanks for letting me spew...Eeeeewww.....here's a napkin.
>
>Sonia
But seriously, I am of the opinion that kids do not need a plethora of social opportunities and scads of friends. Those who seem to be more socially capable and healthy are the ones with just a few good friends and plenty of time to spend with themselves. Look at the lives in ages past of children who went on to become great leaders, heros and inventors in our own country (for the Americans here, I mean) and compare the amount of social interaction they got to what kids get today.
Kids today are overloaded, overworked, overburdened, undertrusted, and irresponsible. They are buried under mountains of schoolwork and given very little real work and roles in the family to fulfill. They are treated as sub-human and not trusted to be intelligent, thinking and feeling beings. Is it any wonder that they act the part?
Nanci K.
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Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
Without the >wisdom of adult guidance and family tradition, their groups end up >resembling gangs (groups assembling based on fear) rather than clubs>(friends gathering based on mutual affection and interests).
Nanci K.
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>LeeYes, they become peer attached and identify with their peers rather than with their family or a larger societal structure. When they get to be teenagers, that's when this peer attachment comes to be very sad and often dangerous. Rather than relying on older role models, parental and other familial wisdom and counsel when they are in need, they go to peers who are just as mixed up, scared and confused as they are.
Nanci K.
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Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
We're very fortunate in this respect. Our newest neighbors have a 15yo son, and 12 and 8yo daughters. They come out and play with even the littlest kids, and they are **great** with them.
candice
********
Our next door neighbors have a seven year old daughter who comes over all the time to play with my 2 and 3 year old sons. She is really great with them and they all play together wonderfully.
About two weeks ago a couple of girls who were visiting their grandfather across the street and were a bit older than our neighbor, came over to our driveway while the three kids were playing. I don't think that they even knew our neighbor. They did not see hubby and I sitting on the porch watching the kids. They asked her "Are you playing with THEM?!" as though it was something they could hardly believe. Then they proceeded to ask my boys (shouting into their faces, as though they were hearing impaired, of just stupid) "HOW OLD ARE YOU? ARE YOU FIVE? ARE YOU FOUR?" My kids just looked at them, since they were being so rude, and they were unacustomed to such treatment, as well as the fact that they do not really know how old they are yet, and don't seem to care about the whole concept.
Rosario, our neighbor, said to them "Why don't you just ask THEM how old they are?" Pointing to Hubby and I in the shade of the front steps. The visitors looked surprised and embarrassed, muttered some comment to our neighbor and went back across the street. She was apparently embarrassed by what they said, as she took off and rode her bike around for a few minutes. But she eventually came back and resumed her games with my boys. I know that those two brats from across the street were PS kids, because they come over to their grnadfather's house after school. Lovely young ladies.
Nanci K.
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candice
********
Our next door neighbors have a seven year old daughter who comes over all the time to play with my 2 and 3 year old sons. She is really great with them and they all play together wonderfully.
About two weeks ago a couple of girls who were visiting their grandfather across the street and were a bit older than our neighbor, came over to our driveway while the three kids were playing. I don't think that they even knew our neighbor. They did not see hubby and I sitting on the porch watching the kids. They asked her "Are you playing with THEM?!" as though it was something they could hardly believe. Then they proceeded to ask my boys (shouting into their faces, as though they were hearing impaired, of just stupid) "HOW OLD ARE YOU? ARE YOU FIVE? ARE YOU FOUR?" My kids just looked at them, since they were being so rude, and they were unacustomed to such treatment, as well as the fact that they do not really know how old they are yet, and don't seem to care about the whole concept.
Rosario, our neighbor, said to them "Why don't you just ask THEM how old they are?" Pointing to Hubby and I in the shade of the front steps. The visitors looked surprised and embarrassed, muttered some comment to our neighbor and went back across the street. She was apparently embarrassed by what they said, as she took off and rode her bike around for a few minutes. But she eventually came back and resumed her games with my boys. I know that those two brats from across the street were PS kids, because they come over to their grnadfather's house after school. Lovely young ladies.
Nanci K.
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Cindy L.
Nanci,
I am so glad someone else doesn't push the age thing with their kids. I
thought maybe I was the only one who didn't teach my child his age, or how
to 'high-five'. I can't even tell you how many times people have looked at
me as if we were practically criminals because of this. My poor mother was
with us for a Dr. appt. when Graham didn't have the' appropriate' responses,
and I know she's secretly teaching him this useful information every chance
she gets!
Cindy L.
St. Louis
I am so glad someone else doesn't push the age thing with their kids. I
thought maybe I was the only one who didn't teach my child his age, or how
to 'high-five'. I can't even tell you how many times people have looked at
me as if we were practically criminals because of this. My poor mother was
with us for a Dr. appt. when Graham didn't have the' appropriate' responses,
and I know she's secretly teaching him this useful information every chance
she gets!
Cindy L.
St. Louis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-k4of5@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:02 PM
Subject: RE:[Unschooling-dotcom] Friends in the neighborhood
Then they proceeded to ask my boys (shouting into their faces, as though
they were hearing impaired, of just stupid) "HOW OLD ARE YOU? ARE YOU FIVE?
ARE YOU FOUR?" My kids just looked at them, since they were being so rude,
and they were unacustomed to such treatment, as well as the fact that they
do not really know how old they are yet, and don't seem to care about the
whole concept.
>
>
> Nanci K.
>