Question
Andi Kaufman
We had friends over last night and we were talking about unschooling. They
are interested. My husband asked a question which none of us could answer
about homeschooling in general.
My husband supports homeschooling but is concnerned with unschooling. So I
have been giving him things to read and keeping discussions open. He has
read alot of info pointing out why homeschooling and unschooling work. He
is looking for info that talks about why (public or private)schooling is
better. I cant find any, in my opinion because there is none and he thinks
there must be some.
The only thing we could come up with that is good about schooling is that
some schools have good equiptment for kids to learn on.
SO does anyone know of any info or articles on why schooling is better and
does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling.
Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...
Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!
are interested. My husband asked a question which none of us could answer
about homeschooling in general.
My husband supports homeschooling but is concnerned with unschooling. So I
have been giving him things to read and keeping discussions open. He has
read alot of info pointing out why homeschooling and unschooling work. He
is looking for info that talks about why (public or private)schooling is
better. I cant find any, in my opinion because there is none and he thinks
there must be some.
The only thing we could come up with that is good about schooling is that
some schools have good equiptment for kids to learn on.
SO does anyone know of any info or articles on why schooling is better and
does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling.
Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...
Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!
Ewa
We have gone through the same discussion and found no advantages to
schooling for an individual. Schooling is a way to educate large groups
freeing both parents to work. It would seem that it makes economical sense
to school but when one considers that schooled children do not get decent
education even that argument fails.
Having schools and state mandated curriculum also ensures to a certain
degree that there is a common base of knowledge within the society. I really
do not think that 12 years are needed for that.
No, I cannot find any advantages to schooling.
Ewa
schooling for an individual. Schooling is a way to educate large groups
freeing both parents to work. It would seem that it makes economical sense
to school but when one considers that schooled children do not get decent
education even that argument fails.
Having schools and state mandated curriculum also ensures to a certain
degree that there is a common base of knowledge within the society. I really
do not think that 12 years are needed for that.
No, I cannot find any advantages to schooling.
Ewa
----- Original Message -----
From: Andi Kaufman <tl2b@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 6:19 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Question
> From: Andi Kaufman <tl2b@...>
>
> We had friends over last night and we were talking about unschooling. They
> are interested. My husband asked a question which none of us could answer
> about homeschooling in general.
>
> My husband supports homeschooling but is concnerned with unschooling. So I
> have been giving him things to read and keeping discussions open. He has
> read alot of info pointing out why homeschooling and unschooling work. He
> is looking for info that talks about why (public or private)schooling is
> better. I cant find any, in my opinion because there is none and he thinks
> there must be some.
>
> The only thing we could come up with that is good about schooling is that
> some schools have good equiptment for kids to learn on.
>
> SO does anyone know of any info or articles on why schooling is better and
> does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling.
>
>
> Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
> mom to Isaac
> tl2b@...
>
> Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Where do some of the Internet's largest email lists reside?
> http://www.onelist.com
> At ONElist - the most scalable and reliable service on the Internet.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
David Albert
Ewa wrote:
home?
David
> From: "Ewa" <sciezka@...>Subsidized breakfasts and lunches for kids who might not get them at
>
> We have gone through the same discussion and found no advantages to
> schooling for an individual.
home?
David
[email protected]
<<SO does anyone know of any info or articles on why schooling is better and
does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling.>>
He'll be able to find "the sky is falling" articles from professional
educators which badmouth homeschooling. They'll be written by people who've
never really known any homeschoolers. It's an instinctive effort to defend
what they went to school and got a master's degree to be professionals in.
There is a lot of money involved in schools, aside from just teachers wanting
to keep their salaries. There's federal grant money, textbook publishing,
materials manufacture and sale, school bus manufacture, sales and driver
training and drivers' salaries; there's the whole school cafeteria industry;
school library industry; substance-abuse education industry, and so on.
People live in some really nice houses because of all that (and I'm not
talking about the teachers, either) and they do NOT want someone saying "We
do what we do for nothing."
What money to unschoolers have to make if people nine states away take their
kids out of school and don't buy a curriculum?
Another La Leche League analogy: Formula companies have stock holders and
huge incomes. People who nurse their babies and help others nurse theirs?
They quit their jobs to do that. What money do they have to publish and hire
lawyers to fight the big businesses? Very, very little to none.
So you might point this out to your husband. As all other things are NOT
being equal, the arguments he might find defending schools and reviling
homeschoolers will have that serious financial base and background.
Homeschoolers are saying what they say simply because they believe it to be
true, not to make profit.
Sandra
does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling.>>
He'll be able to find "the sky is falling" articles from professional
educators which badmouth homeschooling. They'll be written by people who've
never really known any homeschoolers. It's an instinctive effort to defend
what they went to school and got a master's degree to be professionals in.
There is a lot of money involved in schools, aside from just teachers wanting
to keep their salaries. There's federal grant money, textbook publishing,
materials manufacture and sale, school bus manufacture, sales and driver
training and drivers' salaries; there's the whole school cafeteria industry;
school library industry; substance-abuse education industry, and so on.
People live in some really nice houses because of all that (and I'm not
talking about the teachers, either) and they do NOT want someone saying "We
do what we do for nothing."
What money to unschoolers have to make if people nine states away take their
kids out of school and don't buy a curriculum?
Another La Leche League analogy: Formula companies have stock holders and
huge incomes. People who nurse their babies and help others nurse theirs?
They quit their jobs to do that. What money do they have to publish and hire
lawyers to fight the big businesses? Very, very little to none.
So you might point this out to your husband. As all other things are NOT
being equal, the arguments he might find defending schools and reviling
homeschoolers will have that serious financial base and background.
Homeschoolers are saying what they say simply because they believe it to be
true, not to make profit.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/27/99 3:24:16 PM !!!First Boot!!!, SandraDodd@...
writes:
<<
So you might point this out to your husband. As all other things are NOT
being equal, the arguments he might find defending schools and reviling
homeschoolers will have that serious financial base and background.
Homeschoolers are saying what they say simply because they believe it to be
true, not to make profit.
Sandra >>
Not that I think you're wrong, Sandra, but I have been amazed at how many
publishers, etc., market to or at least acknowledge the hsing world. On the
one hand it's sort of reassuring ("so I'm not totally crazy -- I'm not the
only one out their who thinks the ps system is failing my kid") and on the
other hand it's sort of a bummer ("I'm not the cool rebel I thought I was --
thousands of moms and dads are doing this") and on the other hand sort of
scarry (how much "help" from publishers do I really want?).
Nance
writes:
<<
So you might point this out to your husband. As all other things are NOT
being equal, the arguments he might find defending schools and reviling
homeschoolers will have that serious financial base and background.
Homeschoolers are saying what they say simply because they believe it to be
true, not to make profit.
Sandra >>
Not that I think you're wrong, Sandra, but I have been amazed at how many
publishers, etc., market to or at least acknowledge the hsing world. On the
one hand it's sort of reassuring ("so I'm not totally crazy -- I'm not the
only one out their who thinks the ps system is failing my kid") and on the
other hand it's sort of a bummer ("I'm not the cool rebel I thought I was --
thousands of moms and dads are doing this") and on the other hand sort of
scarry (how much "help" from publishers do I really want?).
Nance
[email protected]
<<Not that I think you're wrong, Sandra, but I have been amazed at how many
publishers, etc., market to or at least acknowledge the hsing world.>>
They didn't create the market, though. And many of the suppliers of stuff
(books and games) are homeschooling families finding a way to support their
homeschooling habit. <g>
Back to my analgies du jour, there are people who made baby equipment and
books aimed at attachment parents. And when I first joined the SCA, people
just HAD to make their own costumes and armor. Now one with good credit or a
bunch of cash can mail order all that, and period pavilions, and books with
directions to make stuff, and the supplies...
It's another difference between a small town and big city.
publishers, etc., market to or at least acknowledge the hsing world.>>
They didn't create the market, though. And many of the suppliers of stuff
(books and games) are homeschooling families finding a way to support their
homeschooling habit. <g>
Back to my analgies du jour, there are people who made baby equipment and
books aimed at attachment parents. And when I first joined the SCA, people
just HAD to make their own costumes and armor. Now one with good credit or a
bunch of cash can mail order all that, and period pavilions, and books with
directions to make stuff, and the supplies...
It's another difference between a small town and big city.
Andi Kaufman
sandra wrote:
better. all they do is put down homeschooling not prove their point. do you
know any of those articles.
Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...
Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!
>So you might point this out to your husband. As all other things are NOTright, but he cant find the articles that give reasons why school is
>being equal, the arguments he might find defending schools and reviling
>homeschoolers will have that serious financial base and background.
better. all they do is put down homeschooling not prove their point. do you
know any of those articles.
Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...
Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!
John O. Andersen
Nance,
own versions of the American dream rather than a plug 'n' play off the
shelf model. I'd be willing to bet that there will never be an
over-abundance of those types.
John Andersen
> On thethe
> one hand it's sort of reassuring ("so I'm not totally crazy -- I'm not
> only one out their who thinks the ps system is failing my kid") and onthe
> other hand it's sort of a bummer ("I'm not the cool rebel I thought I was--
> thousands of moms and dads are doing this") and on the other hand sort ofThe cool rebels now are the radical unschoolers and those who create their
> scarry (how much "help" from publishers do I really want?).
own versions of the American dream rather than a plug 'n' play off the
shelf model. I'd be willing to bet that there will never be an
over-abundance of those types.
John Andersen
John O. Andersen
Sandra,
I enjoyed this post tremendously.
schools.
equation, things get very very sensitive.
John Andersen
I enjoyed this post tremendously.
> There is a lot of money involved in schools, aside from just teacherswanting
> to keep their salaries. There's federal grant money, textbookpublishing,
> materials manufacture and sale, school bus manufacture, sales and driverindustry;
> training and drivers' salaries; there's the whole school cafeteria
> school library industry; substance-abuse education industry, and so on.Not to mention the big contracts for the construction and maintenance of
schools.
> People live in some really nice houses because of all that (and I'm not"We
> talking about the teachers, either) and they do NOT want someone saying
> do what we do for nothing."You've hit the nail on the head. Once property and possessions enter the
equation, things get very very sensitive.
John Andersen
[email protected]
<<I enjoyed this post tremendously.>>
Thanks.
I was surprised when I was first teaching to find that bus drivers and
janitors had more clout and were more in the know than the teachers were. It
doesn't surprise me now that I'm older and wiser in the ways of business.
<<"We do what we do for nothing.">>
What I meant by that "nothing" which was we don't spend a bunch of money on
what we're doing, and homeschoolers are helping other homeschoolers free of
charge. I didn't mean "for no result" or fruitlessly. Probably you all got
that, but in context it was particularly ambiguous. Sorry.
On a positive note, I believe strongly that unschoolers will change the
public schools without even a glance back their direction. There are things
unschoolers believe that professional educators do not, like that kids can
learn to read on their own, and that if something is fascinating kids can't
help but absorb it. The open classroom didn't work because kids were forced
to go. Schoolhouse Rock worked, but it was so obviously separate and
*educational* that kids were kind of ashamed if they enjoyed it. Animaniacs
and Histaria (sp?) are better at incorporating the educational stuff into the
entertaining stuff. I think after a few more years of people successfully
unschooling, some researchers are going to pick up some data and anecdotal
evidence (perhaps some homeschooled researchers who started off defending
themselves and found a thesis in the making) and some of that "news" is going
to get back to educational theorists and philosophers who will get the public
schools on some whole new kick that will look a lot like some unschooling
we're already seeing. That's my theory.
Sandra
Thanks.
I was surprised when I was first teaching to find that bus drivers and
janitors had more clout and were more in the know than the teachers were. It
doesn't surprise me now that I'm older and wiser in the ways of business.
<<"We do what we do for nothing.">>
What I meant by that "nothing" which was we don't spend a bunch of money on
what we're doing, and homeschoolers are helping other homeschoolers free of
charge. I didn't mean "for no result" or fruitlessly. Probably you all got
that, but in context it was particularly ambiguous. Sorry.
On a positive note, I believe strongly that unschoolers will change the
public schools without even a glance back their direction. There are things
unschoolers believe that professional educators do not, like that kids can
learn to read on their own, and that if something is fascinating kids can't
help but absorb it. The open classroom didn't work because kids were forced
to go. Schoolhouse Rock worked, but it was so obviously separate and
*educational* that kids were kind of ashamed if they enjoyed it. Animaniacs
and Histaria (sp?) are better at incorporating the educational stuff into the
entertaining stuff. I think after a few more years of people successfully
unschooling, some researchers are going to pick up some data and anecdotal
evidence (perhaps some homeschooled researchers who started off defending
themselves and found a thesis in the making) and some of that "news" is going
to get back to educational theorists and philosophers who will get the public
schools on some whole new kick that will look a lot like some unschooling
we're already seeing. That's my theory.
Sandra
[email protected]
<<right, but he cant find the articles that give reasons why school is
better. all they do is put down homeschooling not prove their point. do you
know any of those articles.>
Not a one. <g>
better. all they do is put down homeschooling not prove their point. do you
know any of those articles.>
Not a one. <g>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/27/99 6:25:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
tl2b@... writes:
<< SO does anyone know of any info or articles on why schooling is better and
does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling. >>
I just asked two of my daughters (ages 16 & 8) if there was anything they
missed about school. They both answered "NO!!" very quickly, but then the 8
y.o. chimed in, "Well, the playground". lol.
Mary Ellen.
tl2b@... writes:
<< SO does anyone know of any info or articles on why schooling is better and
does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling. >>
I just asked two of my daughters (ages 16 & 8) if there was anything they
missed about school. They both answered "NO!!" very quickly, but then the 8
y.o. chimed in, "Well, the playground". lol.
Mary Ellen.
Andi Kaufman
>From: SandraDodd@...I do like telling that to tom. Sometimes he gets much more concerned about
>
><<right, but he cant find the articles that give reasons why school is
>better. all they do is put down homeschooling not prove their point. do you
>know any of those articles.>
>
>Not a one. <g>
my relaxed approached but i love when i can back it up by not having info
on how great school is.
Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...
Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/27/99 9:25:06 AM, tl2b@... writes:
<< SO does anyone know of any info or articles on why schooling is better and
does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling. >>
I wonder if there is enough data yet. Homeschooling has only recently come
out of the crack pot idea stage. Homeschoolers were the oddballs, so of
course homeschooling worked for them.
Also, when homeschoolers and homeschooling are compared to public schoolers,
public schoolers are used as the standard. I don't think public schoolers
are the ideal model. In fact it isn't all public schoolers that are held up
as the model, but the ones for whom public school works.
It might be like if ice cream shops only sold vanilla. But there were some
radicals who couldn't stomach vanilla so they went home and started cranking
out chocolate ice cream. When people checked on the home-made stuff, it
would be clearly not vanilla. But is it fair to compare it to vanilla or
should it be judge on it's own?
Someone once asked homeschoolers to list the good points and bad points about
homeschooling. She got a little upset when people pointed out that those who
could point out the bad parts about homeschooling wouldn't be hanging around
in the New to Homeschooling folder answering questions. Their kids were
probably back in school. She insisted there had to be some bad points.
But the thing is that every family is unique. There are things about
homeschooling that would probably make some people run far far away. Yet
others wouldn't think twice about those same things. Just because the
families are different.
Asking if there is something better about schooling assumes all kids are the
same. School can be a kid's only escape from a bad homelife. For a future
politician, having peers at school to group and rally and herd might be
heaven. School might be the only place a kid from a book-hating family gets
to see books. A kid from a poor family with a lot of initiative might be
able to mine a school's resources for all they're worth.
The methods that schools employ to teach kids encourage accepting a single
source as the final word, encourage looking towards experts for the answers,
encourage kids to not listen to their inner voices that question if something
is of value or not and accept that someone else knows better than they do.
Some manage to ignore all that. Some reject it. Some get crushed by it.
Most, I think, succumb to it on some level.
I could go on at great length about peer groups but I'll spare you ;-).
We've come to accept kids in a room of 30 others of the same age under the
auspices of a (hopefully) benign dictator who has control over their bodily
functions (among other things) as the norm. Some won't fit in, but that's
life. Just as we all need to breath, but some have asthma.
But when you step back and look at it objectively, if homeschooling were the
norm, and someone proposed taking 3 yos away from home and putting them in a
room with a bunch of other 3 yos and 1 teacher who , through no fault of her
own, won't love each child as much as his or her mother does and might
actually dislike some of them, would anyone think that was a good idea?
Perhaps it would help if you wrote down what kind of adult you want your
child to become. Most of us would shrug off kind, helpful, happy,
self-directed etc. as either givens or a crapshoot or unrelated to school.
But really everything should be taken into consideration. Schools have a
fair percentage of kids they are able to force through 4 years of math,
science and English. Personally, I think the peer pressure of schools has a
negative influence on kindness and a lot of other positive qualities. Are
you willing to trade one for the other?
Joyce
<< SO does anyone know of any info or articles on why schooling is better and
does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling. >>
I wonder if there is enough data yet. Homeschooling has only recently come
out of the crack pot idea stage. Homeschoolers were the oddballs, so of
course homeschooling worked for them.
Also, when homeschoolers and homeschooling are compared to public schoolers,
public schoolers are used as the standard. I don't think public schoolers
are the ideal model. In fact it isn't all public schoolers that are held up
as the model, but the ones for whom public school works.
It might be like if ice cream shops only sold vanilla. But there were some
radicals who couldn't stomach vanilla so they went home and started cranking
out chocolate ice cream. When people checked on the home-made stuff, it
would be clearly not vanilla. But is it fair to compare it to vanilla or
should it be judge on it's own?
Someone once asked homeschoolers to list the good points and bad points about
homeschooling. She got a little upset when people pointed out that those who
could point out the bad parts about homeschooling wouldn't be hanging around
in the New to Homeschooling folder answering questions. Their kids were
probably back in school. She insisted there had to be some bad points.
But the thing is that every family is unique. There are things about
homeschooling that would probably make some people run far far away. Yet
others wouldn't think twice about those same things. Just because the
families are different.
Asking if there is something better about schooling assumes all kids are the
same. School can be a kid's only escape from a bad homelife. For a future
politician, having peers at school to group and rally and herd might be
heaven. School might be the only place a kid from a book-hating family gets
to see books. A kid from a poor family with a lot of initiative might be
able to mine a school's resources for all they're worth.
The methods that schools employ to teach kids encourage accepting a single
source as the final word, encourage looking towards experts for the answers,
encourage kids to not listen to their inner voices that question if something
is of value or not and accept that someone else knows better than they do.
Some manage to ignore all that. Some reject it. Some get crushed by it.
Most, I think, succumb to it on some level.
I could go on at great length about peer groups but I'll spare you ;-).
We've come to accept kids in a room of 30 others of the same age under the
auspices of a (hopefully) benign dictator who has control over their bodily
functions (among other things) as the norm. Some won't fit in, but that's
life. Just as we all need to breath, but some have asthma.
But when you step back and look at it objectively, if homeschooling were the
norm, and someone proposed taking 3 yos away from home and putting them in a
room with a bunch of other 3 yos and 1 teacher who , through no fault of her
own, won't love each child as much as his or her mother does and might
actually dislike some of them, would anyone think that was a good idea?
Perhaps it would help if you wrote down what kind of adult you want your
child to become. Most of us would shrug off kind, helpful, happy,
self-directed etc. as either givens or a crapshoot or unrelated to school.
But really everything should be taken into consideration. Schools have a
fair percentage of kids they are able to force through 4 years of math,
science and English. Personally, I think the peer pressure of schools has a
negative influence on kindness and a lot of other positive qualities. Are
you willing to trade one for the other?
Joyce
Larry and Susan Burgess
I LOVED this !!! I cant wait to show my dh , who isn't "approving" of our
unschooling and really wants Cody (10) to go back to ps. He has even
mentioned to Kianne(just turned 5) that it's about time for her to start
school :0 I'm not very good at putting into words why I do and believe what
I do, which is why I will let him read this and not try to tell him it. It
just sums so much up I think!
By the way, I've been lurking on this list for awhile now (because as I
said, I have trouble putting my thoughts into words that make sense to
anyone but me) but here's a short intro...
I'm Susan, 31, married to Larry, 41 we have cody, 10 Kianne, 5 and Holly 17
months. We live in Alaska. I'm a SAHM while my dh works 800 miles away on
the North Slope of AK for 2 weeks, then home 2 weeks.
I love unschooling, and also believe in the Sudbury Valley School model . I
tried to start one here recently, but to no avail. Oh well.
Gotta Go, Holly wants me!
Susan
-----Original Message-----
From: JFetteroll@... <JFetteroll@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Question
unschooling and really wants Cody (10) to go back to ps. He has even
mentioned to Kianne(just turned 5) that it's about time for her to start
school :0 I'm not very good at putting into words why I do and believe what
I do, which is why I will let him read this and not try to tell him it. It
just sums so much up I think!
By the way, I've been lurking on this list for awhile now (because as I
said, I have trouble putting my thoughts into words that make sense to
anyone but me) but here's a short intro...
I'm Susan, 31, married to Larry, 41 we have cody, 10 Kianne, 5 and Holly 17
months. We live in Alaska. I'm a SAHM while my dh works 800 miles away on
the North Slope of AK for 2 weeks, then home 2 weeks.
I love unschooling, and also believe in the Sudbury Valley School model . I
tried to start one here recently, but to no avail. Oh well.
Gotta Go, Holly wants me!
Susan
-----Original Message-----
From: JFetteroll@... <JFetteroll@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Question
>From: JFetteroll@...and
>
>In a message dated 6/27/99 9:25:06 AM, tl2b@... writes:
>
><< SO does anyone know of any info or articles on why schooling is better
>does anyone else think there is any other positive to schooling. >>schoolers,
>
>I wonder if there is enough data yet. Homeschooling has only recently come
>out of the crack pot idea stage. Homeschoolers were the oddballs, so of
>course homeschooling worked for them.
>
>Also, when homeschoolers and homeschooling are compared to public
>public schoolers are used as the standard. I don't think public schoolersup
>are the ideal model. In fact it isn't all public schoolers that are held
>as the model, but the ones for whom public school works.cranking
>
>It might be like if ice cream shops only sold vanilla. But there were some
>radicals who couldn't stomach vanilla so they went home and started
>out chocolate ice cream. When people checked on the home-made stuff, itabout
>would be clearly not vanilla. But is it fair to compare it to vanilla or
>should it be judge on it's own?
>
>Someone once asked homeschoolers to list the good points and bad points
>homeschooling. She got a little upset when people pointed out that thosewho
>could point out the bad parts about homeschooling wouldn't be hangingaround
>in the New to Homeschooling folder answering questions. Their kids werethe
>probably back in school. She insisted there had to be some bad points.
>
>But the thing is that every family is unique. There are things about
>homeschooling that would probably make some people run far far away. Yet
>others wouldn't think twice about those same things. Just because the
>families are different.
>
>Asking if there is something better about schooling assumes all kids are
>same. School can be a kid's only escape from a bad homelife. For a futuregets
>politician, having peers at school to group and rally and herd might be
>heaven. School might be the only place a kid from a book-hating family
>to see books. A kid from a poor family with a lot of initiative might beanswers,
>able to mine a school's resources for all they're worth.
>
>The methods that schools employ to teach kids encourage accepting a single
>source as the final word, encourage looking towards experts for the
>encourage kids to not listen to their inner voices that question ifsomething
>is of value or not and accept that someone else knows better than they do.the
>Some manage to ignore all that. Some reject it. Some get crushed by it.
>Most, I think, succumb to it on some level.
>
>I could go on at great length about peer groups but I'll spare you ;-).
>We've come to accept kids in a room of 30 others of the same age under the
>auspices of a (hopefully) benign dictator who has control over their bodily
>functions (among other things) as the norm. Some won't fit in, but that's
>life. Just as we all need to breath, but some have asthma.
>
>But when you step back and look at it objectively, if homeschooling were
>norm, and someone proposed taking 3 yos away from home and putting them ina
>room with a bunch of other 3 yos and 1 teacher who , through no fault ofher
>own, won't love each child as much as his or her mother does and mighta
>actually dislike some of them, would anyone think that was a good idea?
>
>Perhaps it would help if you wrote down what kind of adult you want your
>child to become. Most of us would shrug off kind, helpful, happy,
>self-directed etc. as either givens or a crapshoot or unrelated to school.
>But really everything should be taken into consideration. Schools have a
>fair percentage of kids they are able to force through 4 years of math,
>science and English. Personally, I think the peer pressure of schools has
>negative influence on kindness and a lot of other positive qualities. Are
>you willing to trade one for the other?
>
>Joyce
>
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>
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>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/27/99 10:27:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
snlburgess@... writes:
<< By the way, I've been lurking on this list for awhile now (because as I
said, I have trouble putting my thoughts into words that make sense to
anyone but me) >>
You said that very well! I have the same problem. I know it in my head, but
my mouth usually won't cooperate! LOL!
Mary Ellen.
snlburgess@... writes:
<< By the way, I've been lurking on this list for awhile now (because as I
said, I have trouble putting my thoughts into words that make sense to
anyone but me) >>
You said that very well! I have the same problem. I know it in my head, but
my mouth usually won't cooperate! LOL!
Mary Ellen.
Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall
>On a positive note, I believe strongly that unschoolers will change thefew more years of people successfully unschooling, some researchers are
>public schools without even a glance back their direction. I think after a
going to pick up some data and anecdotal
>evidence (perhaps some homeschooled researchers who started off defendinggoing
>themselves and found a thesis in the making) and some of that "news" is
>to get back to educational theorists and philosophers who will get thepublic
>schools on some whole new kick that will look a lot like some unschoolingWhat a wonderful theory! I love to look at the world through rose colored
>we're already seeing. That's my theory.
>
>Sandra
glasses. I am practical, and a realist, but I am also an optimist.
Unfortunately they don't always go hand in hand ;-)
Nanci K. in Idaho
[email protected]
<<
What a wonderful theory! I love to look at the world through rose colored
glasses. I am practical, and a realist, but I am also an optimist.
Unfortunately they don't always go hand in hand ;-)
So did La Leche League's experiences and convictions. Hospitals no longer
get away with providing their warped version of how breastfeeding works,
because too many people know better.
Unschooling will change public education in the very same way.
It doesn't seem rose-colored-glasses to me.
Sandra
What a wonderful theory! I love to look at the world through rose colored
glasses. I am practical, and a realist, but I am also an optimist.
Unfortunately they don't always go hand in hand ;-)
>>Natural births and then home births changed hospital policies.
So did La Leche League's experiences and convictions. Hospitals no longer
get away with providing their warped version of how breastfeeding works,
because too many people know better.
Unschooling will change public education in the very same way.
It doesn't seem rose-colored-glasses to me.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/28/99 11:39:21 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< Hospitals no longer
get away with providing their warped version of how breastfeeding works,
because too many people know better.
Unschooling will change public education in the very same way. >>
Yup. There are so many decisions about how children need to be educated
based on what we know about children and learning *in school*. We have very
little data on how children learn naturally.
Once unschooled kids become common enough not to be dismissed from the data
pool as kids who learn differently, whose abilities don't apply to "normal"
kids, then people are going to sit up and realize the things they've always
assumed about how children learn may be wrong.
Joyce
<< Hospitals no longer
get away with providing their warped version of how breastfeeding works,
because too many people know better.
Unschooling will change public education in the very same way. >>
Yup. There are so many decisions about how children need to be educated
based on what we know about children and learning *in school*. We have very
little data on how children learn naturally.
Once unschooled kids become common enough not to be dismissed from the data
pool as kids who learn differently, whose abilities don't apply to "normal"
kids, then people are going to sit up and realize the things they've always
assumed about how children learn may be wrong.
Joyce
Jeff & Diane Gwirtz
> Listen, I'm worried. My 13 yr. old really wants to go to 8th gradeI thought I better come out of lurkdom to give my $.02 on this one.
>
> this fall (has friends from her softball team that go there). She's
> never been to school before in her entire life (unschooled, to
> boot). She reads and writes and spells great, knows a little bit of
> history and science, too,
As a brief intro - my name is Diane and I live in Kansas. I've been
married to Jeff for almost 21 years. We have two children - a 19
year old daughter - homeschooled since 15, but not unschooled at
first - now a part time college student and full time employee,
moving into her own apartment Thursday , AND a 13 year old son -
unschooled since he was 10. He's the reason I write. He wanted to
return to school last fall (7th grade) to see what middle school was
like. He was concerned about his math skills because we hadn't
worked traditionally on math. We began to work away, at his
suggestion, and yet it was less than thrilling for both of us. To
make a long story short, he returned for the first quarter -
reassured himself that he wasn't missing anything and remembered how
boring and tedious the work was, and how silly the rules. They
placed him in a gifted math class and still spent over 2 weeks
explaining prime numbers. I think that's when he gave up. He did
enjoy an Explorations in Technology class, but that was it. He came
back home at Thanksgiving. Our agreement was that he could come back
home whenever he wanted, but he couldn't return to ps until the next year.
At this point he has no plans of ever returning. He's a committed
unschooler - more so now because he came to this on his own. I had
heard others say the same thing whose children returned to school briefly at
this age and it's really true. We even consider his return part of
his unschooling adventure. There was no discussion about wanting to
go/not go on a particular day because he always knew it was up to
him. Homework - up to him. We had discussed the fact that if he was
choosing to go to school, he needed to be prepared to play the game
and jump through the hoops. I never had to wake him up in the
morning, or remind him to finish work. It was his choice/his
responsibility - so different from our earlier experience. When he
came back home, I thought he'd deschool for awhile, but the return to
healthy unschooling was almost immediate. If he chooses to return
again, I think we'll approach it the same way and then hold our
breath. Even in the short time he was back, we saw negative
attitude changes, so we were very relieved when he came back home.
> Listen, I'm worried. My 13 yr. old really wants to go to 8th gradeDiane from KS
> this fall (has friends from her softball team that go there). She's never
> been to school before in her entire life (unschooled, to boot). She reads
> and writes and spells great, knows a little bit of history and science, too,
>
jagwirtz@...
[email protected]
Hi, U-Gang,
Listen, I'm worried. My 13 yr. old really wants to go to 8th grade
this fall (has friends from her softball team that go there). She's never
been to school before in her entire life (unschooled, to boot). She reads
and writes and spells great, knows a little bit of history and science, too,
but her math is atrocious - I was going to help her with that - someday.
Anyway...I told her she could "try" it and she could always quit and come
home again.
Have any of you re-entered or entered for the first time,
unschoolers, into the ps system? Thanks for any input. Lynnie
Listen, I'm worried. My 13 yr. old really wants to go to 8th grade
this fall (has friends from her softball team that go there). She's never
been to school before in her entire life (unschooled, to boot). She reads
and writes and spells great, knows a little bit of history and science, too,
but her math is atrocious - I was going to help her with that - someday.
Anyway...I told her she could "try" it and she could always quit and come
home again.
Have any of you re-entered or entered for the first time,
unschoolers, into the ps system? Thanks for any input. Lynnie
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/29/1999 11:02:01 AM EST, jagwirtz@... writes:
of context, I offer my apologies.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I'll forge ahead anyway. I really
think we still need to have a public school system in this country. For some
children and their families, it is the best option. I have not problem with
a reasonable amount of my tax dollars supporting a public school system. All
children need the opportunity for a quality education. I don't think many
are getting that quality right now, but it's baby with the bathwater thing.
So, here's my take on the above question about trying public school on for
size. Unless your gut screams that it's not a good idea for your family or
this child, go ahead and give it a go. She may find that it is a good fit
for her. She may return home post-haste and never want to enter that arena
again. As long as it's right for her and your family, it works! (OTOH, if
your gut screams NO! then you are the parent and have the ultimate
responsibility to make these decisions.)
I truly don't believe there is only one right way to educate.
FWIW
Eiraul
>never
> > Listen, I'm worried. My 13 yr. old really wants to go to 8th grade
> > this fall (has friends from her softball team that go there). She's
>reads
> > been to school before in her entire life (unschooled, to boot). She
>I think I've missed a couple of responses to this...so if my comments are out
> > and writes and spells great, knows a little bit of history and science,
> too,
> >
> Diane from KS
> jagwirtz@...
>
of context, I offer my apologies.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I'll forge ahead anyway. I really
think we still need to have a public school system in this country. For some
children and their families, it is the best option. I have not problem with
a reasonable amount of my tax dollars supporting a public school system. All
children need the opportunity for a quality education. I don't think many
are getting that quality right now, but it's baby with the bathwater thing.
So, here's my take on the above question about trying public school on for
size. Unless your gut screams that it's not a good idea for your family or
this child, go ahead and give it a go. She may find that it is a good fit
for her. She may return home post-haste and never want to enter that arena
again. As long as it's right for her and your family, it works! (OTOH, if
your gut screams NO! then you are the parent and have the ultimate
responsibility to make these decisions.)
I truly don't believe there is only one right way to educate.
FWIW
Eiraul
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/1/99 4:16:08 PM !!!First Boot!!!, jwwjr@...
writes:
<<
I don't have any personal experience, but a friend of mine approached this
issue in a very creative way. Her daughter expressed an interest in ps, has
always been homeschooled. My friend had her daughter write out a list of
questions she had about ps (I think she had about 3 pages of questions).
She made an appt with the ps principal and her daughter "interviewed
him"....from all accounts it was very enlightening for her daughter. She
asked questions about curriculum, requested to see a copy of the books the
class she would be assigned to were using, found all the books to be
something she had learned 2-3 yrs ago.
She asked questions about personal issues: if I need to use the bathroom do
I just go? Can I help design my own course of study?
She asked to meet the teacher.
She chose not to go to ps after her interviews. You might suggest the same
of your daughter. That way at least she knows what she's getting into
before getting there.
Good luck,
Cindy >>
I love this!! Maybe all parents should do this as well.
What a positive way to approach a thorny issue.
Nance
writes:
<<
I don't have any personal experience, but a friend of mine approached this
issue in a very creative way. Her daughter expressed an interest in ps, has
always been homeschooled. My friend had her daughter write out a list of
questions she had about ps (I think she had about 3 pages of questions).
She made an appt with the ps principal and her daughter "interviewed
him"....from all accounts it was very enlightening for her daughter. She
asked questions about curriculum, requested to see a copy of the books the
class she would be assigned to were using, found all the books to be
something she had learned 2-3 yrs ago.
She asked questions about personal issues: if I need to use the bathroom do
I just go? Can I help design my own course of study?
She asked to meet the teacher.
She chose not to go to ps after her interviews. You might suggest the same
of your daughter. That way at least she knows what she's getting into
before getting there.
Good luck,
Cindy >>
I love this!! Maybe all parents should do this as well.
What a positive way to approach a thorny issue.
Nance
The White's
I don't have any personal experience, but a friend of mine approached this
issue in a very creative way. Her daughter expressed an interest in ps, has
always been homeschooled. My friend had her daughter write out a list of
questions she had about ps (I think she had about 3 pages of questions).
She made an appt with the ps principal and her daughter "interviewed
him"....from all accounts it was very enlightening for her daughter. She
asked questions about curriculum, requested to see a copy of the books the
class she would be assigned to were using, found all the books to be
something she had learned 2-3 yrs ago.
She asked questions about personal issues: if I need to use the bathroom do
I just go? Can I help design my own course of study?
She asked to meet the teacher.
She chose not to go to ps after her interviews. You might suggest the same
of your daughter. That way at least she knows what she's getting into
before getting there.
Good luck,
Cindy
issue in a very creative way. Her daughter expressed an interest in ps, has
always been homeschooled. My friend had her daughter write out a list of
questions she had about ps (I think she had about 3 pages of questions).
She made an appt with the ps principal and her daughter "interviewed
him"....from all accounts it was very enlightening for her daughter. She
asked questions about curriculum, requested to see a copy of the books the
class she would be assigned to were using, found all the books to be
something she had learned 2-3 yrs ago.
She asked questions about personal issues: if I need to use the bathroom do
I just go? Can I help design my own course of study?
She asked to meet the teacher.
She chose not to go to ps after her interviews. You might suggest the same
of your daughter. That way at least she knows what she's getting into
before getting there.
Good luck,
Cindy
----- Original Message -----
From: <LLH1028@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Question
> From: LLH1028@...
>
> Hi, U-Gang,
> Listen, I'm worried. My 13 yr. old really wants to go to 8th grade
> this fall (has friends from her softball team that go there). She's never
> been to school before in her entire life (unschooled, to boot). She reads
> and writes and spells great, knows a little bit of history and science,
too,
> but her math is atrocious - I was going to help her with that - someday.
> Anyway...I told her she could "try" it and she could always quit and come
> home again.
> Have any of you re-entered or entered for the first time,
> unschoolers, into the ps system? Thanks for any input. Lynnie
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> What do fashion and football have in common?
> http://www.onelist.com
> They both have communities at ONElist. Find yours today!
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
John O. Andersen
If the term for fiber-rich "rough" foods is roughage,
What could be the term for the money you get from an opportunistic lawsuit?
John
http://members.xoom.com/joandersen
What could be the term for the money you get from an opportunistic lawsuit?
John
http://members.xoom.com/joandersen
[email protected]
Dear Friends,
I am new to this list, so this question may have been done to death
already! I would be interested in knowing what your favorite unschooling
books and websites are. Could you share some with me? If it is
inappropriate to clog up the list with this information, you can e-mail me
privately. Thanks so much!
Blessings,
Carol
bcadams997@...
I am new to this list, so this question may have been done to death
already! I would be interested in knowing what your favorite unschooling
books and websites are. Could you share some with me? If it is
inappropriate to clog up the list with this information, you can e-mail me
privately. Thanks so much!
Blessings,
Carol
bcadams997@...
[email protected]
I am prejudiced as far as sites go LOL>>Here's mine!!
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/8049/">Christian
Unschooling</A>
Be blessed :))
ELissa
Christian Unschooling mom to Brian
NJ
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/8049/">Christian
Unschooling</A>
Be blessed :))
ELissa
Christian Unschooling mom to Brian
NJ
David Albert
Bcadams997@... wrote:
our homeschooling practice -- under "products" and then under
"booklist".
www.skylarksings.com
David Albert
My book "And the Skylark Sings with Me: Adventures in Homeschooling and
Community-Based Education" is NOW OFF THE PRESS. To read a sample
chapter, reviewers' comments, or the foreword, and for ordering info.,
visit my website at http://www.skylarksings.com
> From: Bcadams997@...If you go to my website, I have a whole list of books which influenced
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I am new to this list, so this question may have been done to death
>
> already! I would be interested in knowing what your favorite
> unschooling
> books and websites are. Could you share some with me?
>
> Blessings,
> Carol
our homeschooling practice -- under "products" and then under
"booklist".
www.skylarksings.com
David Albert
My book "And the Skylark Sings with Me: Adventures in Homeschooling and
Community-Based Education" is NOW OFF THE PRESS. To read a sample
chapter, reviewers' comments, or the foreword, and for ordering info.,
visit my website at http://www.skylarksings.com
rick and deborah farrington
good question, a friend just asked me the same thing. i dont have alot of
places i go for unscholling. the unschooling home page i my fave, but of
course you know that one. so i would like to hear about more too. i know of
the f.u.n site. (your not lois' friend are you?)
Bcadams997@... wrote:
places i go for unscholling. the unschooling home page i my fave, but of
course you know that one. so i would like to hear about more too. i know of
the f.u.n site. (your not lois' friend are you?)
Bcadams997@... wrote:
> From: Bcadams997@...
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I am new to this list, so this question may have been done to death
> already! I would be interested in knowing what your favorite unschooling
> books and websites are. Could you share some with me? If it is
> inappropriate to clog up the list with this information, you can e-mail me
> privately. Thanks so much!
>
> Blessings,
> Carol
> bcadams997@...
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
Kandice C.
Hi everyone!
I recently found that my local school system has classes on the
internet and they are 12 weeks long. The kids get full credit for
each course and can legitimately grauduate high school in less
than two years.
My kids are 14 and 11 and we are thinking about letting them do
that. I have them taking a freshmen pre-algebra course right now
to decide if this is something they really want to do.
My son thinks it would be cool to be in college at 14 years old.
What are all of your thoughts on this? Is it a mistake? I'm
pretty new to this home-schooling and have been wavering back and
forth between home-schooling and un-schooling and have not found a
comfortable place to be yet and this just came to us a few weeks
ago.
Blessings,
Kandy
Work at home:
http://www.myfreeoffice.com/kandyc
-----------------------------------------------
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @...
Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com
I recently found that my local school system has classes on the
internet and they are 12 weeks long. The kids get full credit for
each course and can legitimately grauduate high school in less
than two years.
My kids are 14 and 11 and we are thinking about letting them do
that. I have them taking a freshmen pre-algebra course right now
to decide if this is something they really want to do.
My son thinks it would be cool to be in college at 14 years old.
What are all of your thoughts on this? Is it a mistake? I'm
pretty new to this home-schooling and have been wavering back and
forth between home-schooling and un-schooling and have not found a
comfortable place to be yet and this just came to us a few weeks
ago.
Blessings,
Kandy
Work at home:
http://www.myfreeoffice.com/kandyc
-----------------------------------------------
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @...
Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com