starshine ***

I had a bit of a surprise today when I read the CHILD ABUSE PREVENTION &
TREATMENT ACT/WHAT DEFINES ABUSE? regarding "EDUCATIONAL NEGLECT" It said
that one form of educ. neglect was "failure to enroll a child of mandatory
school age"

As unschoolers, do you enroll your child once they are school age???


>From: [email protected]
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 762
>Date: 3 Sep 2000 21:21:08 -0000
>
>
>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>Addresses:
>Post message: [email protected]
>Unsubscribe: [email protected]
>List owner: [email protected]
>List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>There are 25 messages in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. RE: re: losing baby teeth
> From: "Valerie" <valeries@...>
> 2. Re: Differences with DH
> From: "Corallyn " <hape2day@...>
> 3. Re: Differences with DH
> From: "Corallyn " <hape2day@...>
> 4. Re: corporal punishment ...
> From: ecsamhill@...
> 5. Re: hitting/spanking
> From: ecsamhill@...
> 6. Waldorf
> From: Cararmst@...
> 7. Re: growing as a parent
> From: Jaam1224@...
> 8. Re: Re: Differences with DH
> From: Jaam1224@...
> 9. moving, need help
> From: "The White's" <jwwjr@...>
> 10. Looking for a group in FL
> From: "Susan \(mother to 5 in Fla\)" <samiot@...>
> 11. Re: cats!!--was corporal punishment
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> 12. Re: examples of abuse from link
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> 13. RE: censorship-sex ed
> From: "M & J Welch" <seamus@...>
> 14. Re I am so angry
> From: tonitoni@...
> 15. Fw: Differences with DH- NEW MEMBER VIEW
> From: "Cindy L." <clappin@...>
> 16. Re: Re I am so angry
> From: "Pris" <x_t_sipr@...>
> 17. Re: Fw: new member and thanks
> From: Jaam1224@...
> 18. Re: What Is Child Abuse & Neglect
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> 19. Re: Differences with DH
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> 20. Re: Re: Differences with DH
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> 21. re: Waldorf
> From: "Valerie" <valeries@...>
> 22. re: censorship--sex ed
> From: "Valerie" <valeries@...>
> 23. Re: RE: Food Issues ~ different problem is this a matt...
> From: "Tracy Oldfield" <tracy.oldfield@...>
> 24. RE: re; different problem...wills
> From: "Tracy Oldfield" <tracy.oldfield@...>
> 25. Re: RE: Food Issues ~ different problem is this a matt...
> From: "Tracy Oldfield" <tracy.oldfield@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 08:05:54 -0700
> From: "Valerie" <valeries@...>
>Subject: RE: re: losing baby teeth
>
>Valerie said:
>
> > ps Our tooth fairy gives a silver dollar for the first tooth lost, and a
> > quarter after that. :)
> >
> > Shirley says:
>
>How can I get your tooth fairy to work my neighborhood. The going price
>here
>is a dollar a tooth!!(Arrrgh!) My dad told my kids that if they were in his
>neighborhood, thry'd get $5 a tooth. I suggested that they spend the night
>with Grandpa each time they lost a tooth!! (Sheesh-
>
>Valerie says:
>
>Sheesh is right. I think this should go beyond the suggesting
>stage....arrange a sleep-over when at least two of your children have loose
>teeth, preferably two teeth each. Don't let them come home without cash.
>So,
>when you were little, did the "tooth fairy" leave _you_ large amounts of
>money, or is this one of those "We couldn't do for you, but we'll do for
>the
>grandchildren" situations?
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 15:12:42 -0000
> From: "Corallyn " <hape2day@...>
>Subject: Re: Differences with DH
>
>To be very open and honest Nicoletta, I am from an abusive family as
>well. There was abuse left and right and I was the one who received
>the brunt of the abuse mostly in the form of emotional and some
>physical by my father when I was a teenager. By physical I mean that
>he would taunt me till I was fuming mad and then walk away laughing.
>This was something that he did to me starting when I was very young.
>When I became a teenager I learned that I had a right to not be
>treated this way. The years of emotional abuse came out physically
>when he would do this. He was good at knowing when I had reached the
>point of physical anger and when I would walk away he would dare me
>to come back and fight him. And I did. And although my mother is from
>an abusive family as well, she was my advocate. With the problems I
>had in ps she was the one who stood up for me when I wasn't able to
>stand up for myself. In the end it was my mother who was able to
>acknowledge that she wasn't perfect and admit to me when she made a
>mistake in her parenting, and there were many mistakes, however, none
>that were as bad as what my father inflicted on me. He, by the way,
>to this day admits nothing wrong. He sees himself as infalable in
>every aspect of his life. The point I am wanting make here and
>getting off the subject of is that although I come from a family of
>abuse, somehow, someway I was able to look at what was happening to
>me and realize that it was wrong. That this isn't the way it is
>supposed to be. And then figure out how to do it better, I will even
>say right. That isn't to say that I am always right but that the
>environment that I have been able to provide for my children is
>happy, loving and not abusive. Meaning, they will never know what it
>is like to grow up with anything close to what I did. I have been
>able to figure out how to give them the type of environment I wanted
>to and deserved to grow up in. How do I know I am doing this with the
>background I just described? I used to wonder that myself. I began
>looking at what the "experts" say and suggest and found that I was
>already doing the majority of it. This isn't to say that I am perfect
>in my parenting skills. It is to say that I don't have the problems
>of parenting my children that most survivors of abuse do.
>
>I do apreciate your openness and your opinion. And thank you for your
>sensitivity in you last post. To be very honest I was extremely
>offended by the email you had sent.: ) however, all is forgotten. : )
>
>I am curious as to some of the things you have learned in your class
>with DH. How have you come to terms and found common ground with the
>differences you have in your childrenrearing techniques?
>
>Corallyn
>
>
>
>--- In [email protected], "Shannon Nicoletta Manns"
><snmanns@a...> wrote:
> >
> > BTW I did some spanking when my girls where younger, before I knew
>about Aletha Solter's work and before I joined a Self-Healing Circle.
>I wasn't judging you personally. However I still believe that
>spanking is abusive. Therefore I have to admit that "I used to abuse
>my children". I have changed. But I could only begin to change once I
>realized what I was doing and acknowledging it openly, while at the
>same time being gentle with myself, not beating myself up or judging
>myself. Corporal punishment is not the only type of child abuse - a
>lot of emotional abuse goes unnoticed. I have been "guilty" of that,
>too. Realizing that my behaviours originated in my own childhood is
>not an excuse or a reason to blame my upbringing, but a place to
>begin changing. I am working on it every day. So I would like to join
>someone else here who said "try not to take it personally". I know
>that is not easy sometimes, and I see every day how 'taking things
>personally and getting defensive' gets in way more than anything when
>it comes to opening up to change. I thank you, Corallyn, for posting
>you original message. In my emotionality I was maybe too quick to
>react by sending all the Aletha Solter info (I still think everyone
>could benefit from knowing her stuff), without acknowledging that I
>have been where you are, Corallyn, and I do hav sympathy for you and
>your situation. My husband and I recently joined a Couples' Self-
>Healing Circle. It has been most valuable in helping us deal with
>some of our issues - differences in childrearing being one,
>especially since we are blended family (I have two girls from a
>previous marriage, he has a son and a daughter from two previous
>marriages and together we have Benjamin who is three). Anyway, I
>apologize for not being more sensitive to begin with. That doesn't
>mean I feel any different or less passionate about the subject of
>spanking or other forms of punishment.
> >
> > Nicoletta
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 15:25:28 -0000
> From: "Corallyn " <hape2day@...>
>Subject: Re: Differences with DH
>
>I can see that it is your opinion that it doesn't matter what the
>situation was. There is absolutely no good reason for spanking your
>child. I can respect that opinion and I don't agree with it. I am not
>going to defend myself any further because it is pointless. I agree
>to disagree, as my mother tells me. And I can accept that. No hard
>feelings. Corallyn : )
>
>
>--- In [email protected], NumoAstro@a... wrote:
> > > A four year old is a child and if the child got away from an
>adult,
> > it is the ADULT's responsibility! Period!
> > >
> >
> > You are absulutely right. It is my responsibility. I am responsible
> > for how I teach my children and at preasant the choices they make
>and how I deal with those choices.
> >
> > I think Lynda was trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong
>Lynda)...that you as the adult were responsible for your child
>running away and punishing the child for your lack of responsibility
>doesn't seem to make any sense... There is no judgement in that...
>It's just a fact... If you are the responsible one for a situation
>and something happens in that situations, then I would be apologizing
>to my son for not watching him well enough that he could get away
>from me, not hitting him for something that children do... They don't
>understand at 4 yrs old they could get lost or someone could hurt
>them...They just see things that they like and off they go, which is
>why it's our job as adults to not let that happen. But why should
>your son suffer consequences for your inability to take care of him?
>It's just a thought...and one I only just thought off....It doesn't
>make you a bad parent, just a typical reaction to the thought that
>you are not perfect and chose to take an action that wasn't
>appropriate given the situation. Why is it so difficult to admit a
>mistake. Spanking a child because they ran away when it was the
>responsibility of the adult to make sure they didn't run away doesn't
>make any logical sense to me and it certainly wouldn't make any to a
>child. Just thinking out loud...
> >
> > Dawn
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:32:56 EDT
> From: ecsamhill@...
>Subject: Re: corporal punishment ...
>
>
>In a message dated 9/3/2000 12:47:06 PM, thediva@... writes:
>
><<Couldn't we just settle for
>allowing those who want to discuss it to do so and the rest of us just to
>delete it?? I was deleting hot and heavy a few days ago when birthday
>presents were the topic and I wasn't interested.>>
>
>It might be helpful if everyone who hasn't been through it once knows that
>a
>list discussion on spanking usually becomes very controversial and
>outraged.
>Such a discussion is likely to TRIPLE the volume of posts on the list for a
>couple of weeks and include some rather startling ranting and raving.
>
>But people who like to kick rotten logs, turn rocks over, and poke
>rattlesnakes with sticks may enjoy some of those aspects. <g>
>
>Just my 2 cents,
>Betsy
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:42:06 EDT
> From: ecsamhill@...
>Subject: Re: hitting/spanking
>
>
>In a message dated 9/3/2000 2:39:39 PM, hape2day@... writes:
>
><<Anyway, like I said before the problem I have with
>replies to my inicial post is the accuations that seem to be implied
>not the opinions themselves.>>
>
>For the record, every spanking debate I have ever seen includes people
>criticizing spanking as a method and people who spank (even occasionally)
>feeling upset, as if they were personally reviled. In the heat of the
>moment, it's hard to be aware of subtleties, like the actual pronouns used
>in
>a sentence.
>
>(And sometimes people do say "You spank? That's terrible". But I don't
>think THIS debate has dipped down to that personal level yet. I can't
>speak
>for any private flames that might have been mailed.)
>
>Betsy
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:46:01 EDT
> From: Cararmst@...
>Subject: Waldorf
>
>In a message dated 9/1/2000 6:10:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
>valeries@... writes:
>
> > PS Does this have anything to do with the Waldorf belief of starting
> > reading/writing?
>
>I have a question about Waldorf. As I understand it, Waldorf is pretty
>structured. But I know a fair number of families who profess to be
>unschoolers but talk of using Waldorf or Oak Meadow or have their kids in
>Waldorf playgroups. Unschooling and Waldorf seem to be at opposite ends.
>Am
>I missing something?
>
>Carron
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:58:51 EDT
> From: Jaam1224@...
>Subject: Re: growing as a parent
>
>I think we as parents grow and learn right along with our children....
>
>Julie
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 14:01:36 EDT
> From: Jaam1224@...
>Subject: Re: Re: Differences with DH
>
>In a message dated 9/3/00 11:12:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>hape2day@... writes:
>
><< I am curious as to some of the things you have learned in your class
> with DH. How have you come to terms and found common ground with the
> differences you have in your childrenrearing techniques?
>
> Corallyn >>
>I am curious tooo.....
>
>Julie
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 14:08:28 -0400
> From: "The White's" <jwwjr@...>
>Subject: moving, need help
>
>Hi all,
>I have been a lurker/sometimes poster on the list for quite a while now and
>need some help. We currently live in SW Virginia and will be moving back
>to
>NC in the next few months. I need your help in finding inclusive groups in
>the Charlotte area. I've already checked NHEN and NCHE.
>
>We will probably be moving north of Charlotte, possibly back to
>Mooresville,
>maybe to Lincoln county. Yet we may be closer to Charlotte, possibly
>Davidson or Huntersville. Do any of you know of any groups we can connect
>with? At this point, I would love to know of ANY inclusive group within a
>40 mile radius of Charlotte, not just on the north side.
>
>
>TIA!
>Cindy
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 10
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 14:26:26 -0400
> From: "Susan \(mother to 5 in Fla\)" <samiot@...>
>Subject: Looking for a group in FL
>
> I started unschooling last year in Jan after my dd (7) fried out just
>before Christmas using ABeka. We have much more fun now. Are there any
>unschool groups in the Orlando, FL area or is anyone on the group living in
>this area? I'd like to find others that are using this method.
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:56:55 -0700
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>Subject: Re: cats!!--was corporal punishment
>
>Ahhh, the Siamese cat of the dog world. Have fun if you get one <g>
>
>Lynda
>
>----------
> > From: Susan (mother to 5 in Fla) <samiot@...>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom]cats!!--was corporal punishment
> > Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 5:18 AM
> >
> >
> > I've used white vinegar for getting smell out of carpet. I used a
>clumping
> > litter & checked it several times a day. Pre-DH I had 7 cats in an
> > apartment owned by a friend who didn't allow pets. But he came into my
> > prior apartment & was surprised when he saw all the cats. Now I have 2
>that
> > are outside & 5 children (2 step). It was a lot quieter then & not
>nearly
> > the work but I wouldn't trade for anything. Now dd 7 wants a Husky.
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 12
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:02:46 -0700
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>Subject: Re: examples of abuse from link
>
>Just for clarification, that isn't a CPS report although they have made it
>a point to make it look real official. It is a group of folks that have
>been cited and some other folks who I will contrain myself and not mention
>(but paranoia is a factor, as is membership in another organization I will
>not mention as is belief in Ezzo) started to b & g about how harsh the laws
>are in their opinion.
>
>Lynda
>----------
> > From: NumoAstro@...
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] examples of abuse from link
> > Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 5:41 AM
> >
> >
> > The examples given in the CPS report are of low income mixed families,
>who
> > probably send their kids to daycare...so I don't see the connection with
>a
> > middle class family who homeschools their kids.
> >
> > Dawn F
> > Tucson, AZ
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 13
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 14:55:04 -0400
> From: "M & J Welch" <seamus@...>
>Subject: RE: censorship-sex ed
>
>
>
> >>There we are, hubby and I watching a grownup movie. Kids are in their
>rooms.
> Of course, just when the violent part of the movie starts, in waltzes the
>5
>yo.
>
>So I, being the fantastic mom that I am, switch the station off of the
>movie
>to the cooking channel.
>
>Where they are hurling chunks of raw meat to the tiger in the zoo!!!! And
>going on and on about how they feed X pounds of horse and other meat to the
>tiger every day, etc.
>
>Auugghhhhh!
>
>At least it was real violence and not people shooting at each other in a
>movie, but it was more nature channel that I was ready for at that moment!
>:)
>
>Nance<<
>
>LOL! Mmm Mmm! Raw meat! Hungry kitty! Lol! :-)
>
>We keep our t.v. in our bedroom and usually, if there's a show that is too
>adult for our kids on, I tell then point blank-"Seamus, this show is too
>grown up for you to watch. Please leave the room, I'll be there in a
>minute." I say that if there's a particularly good part on, or if it's
>boring I'll say "Let's leave the room so we can talk". I prefer to do it
>this way because it helps me reinforce that there's programs on t.v. that
>ds
>is not ready for, and sometimes it can lead to discussion about what is
>appropriate t.v. and what is not. Ds will say "Why can't I watch it?" and
>I'll answer saying "Well, they use bad language" or "There's too much
>pretend violence" or something to that effect. And normally I end it with
>"When you get older you can decide for yourself if you want to watch it."
>He may not understand completely, but he likes to have a reason and feel in
>control.
>
>Although, if there's nekkid folks on the screen (not very often, but
>still..) CLICK! Off goes the t.v.
>
>Regardless, when they walk into that room and there's something adult on,
>boy-there's a moment of squirming nervousness. I'm like-eek! Shut your
>eyes! Which is funny, because I remember my mom letting me come into the
>room where a movie was on to get a goodnight kiss so long as I shut my
>eyes.
>:-) I walked blindly into the room and usually tripped over the hassock.
>Hmmm. I can remember my parents laughing. I wonder why. ;-)
>
>Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 14
> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 19:08:36 -0000
> From: tonitoni@...
>Subject: Re I am so angry
>
>Thanks guys. I have cooled down now. The teacher is right about one
>thing - my daughter does have time on her hands - thankgoodness -
>time to enjoy the world and stop and smell the roses.
>Marianne
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 15
> Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:17:46 -0500
> From: "Cindy L." <clappin@...>
>Subject: Fw: Differences with DH- NEW MEMBER VIEW
>
>Sent this from the wrong mailbox originally- thats why it looks fwded.
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am very new to this list, just started with this thread ( and baby
> > teeth ), I have been impressed with much of the grace & wisdom offered
> > here. I can clearly see all sides to this particular discussion, and I
>am
> > so glad it has continued. Although the subject may be uncomfortable, I
> > think everyone seems to agree that it is one of most importantance . It
> > seems to be making some progress though, where people are starting to
>listen
> > and therefore actually be able to affect one another.
> >
> > I think compassion is the key here. I read Corallyn's initial post as
>being
> > brave & quite worthy of responses. It is very difficult to bring up
>the
> > discussion of discipline, and it touches on very sensitive ground for
>most
> > of us. But, the only way to effectively change often involves some
> > discomfort. I am always grateful to those who are braver than I at
> > broaching 'dangerous' subjects, and I always learn something no matter
>how
> > much I already think I know.
> >
> > So, thank you to Corallyn & thank you to Nicoletta ( I appreciated both
>of
> > your posts), and thank you to everyone else who contributed to the
> > discussion one way or the other. I've been on lists where discussion
>was
> > shut down when things got even slightly controversial, and that level of
> > censorship doesn't seem to reflect the ideas of unschooling in my mind
> > anyway.
> >
> > I look forward to many more discussions with all of you!
> >
> > Cindy
> > St. Louis, MO
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shannon Nicoletta Manns" <snmanns@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:29 AM
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > With all this said I do respect each person's right to their
> > > > oppinion. That doesn't mean I do/have to agree/like that opinion.
> > > > Corallyn
> > >
> > >
> > > That's right, Corallyn.
> > >
> > > BTW I did some spanking when my girls where younger, before I knew
>about
> > > Aletha Solter's work and before I joined a Self-Healing Circle.
> > >
> > > I wasn't judging you personally. However I still believe that spanking
>is
> > > abusive. Therefore I have to admit that "I used to abuse my children".
>I
> > > have changed. But I could only begin to change once I realized what I
>was
> > > doing and acknowledging it openly, while at the same time being gentle
> > with
> > > myself, not beating myself up or judging myself. Corporal punishment
>is
> > not
> > > the only type of child abuse - a lot of emotional abuse goes
>unnoticed.
>I
> > > have been "guilty" of that, too. Realizing that my behaviours
>originated
> > in
> > > my own childhood is not an excuse or a reason to blame my upbringing,
>but
> > a
> > > place to begin changing. I am working on it every day.
> > >
> > > So I would like to join someone else here who said "try not to take it
> > > personally". I know that is not easy sometimes, and I see every day
>how
> > > 'taking things personally and getting defensive' gets in way more than
> > > anything when it comes to opening up to change.
> > >
> > > I thank you, Corallyn, for posting you original message. In my
> > emotionality
> > > I was maybe too quick to react by sending all the Aletha Solter info
>(I
> > > still think everyone could benefit from knowing her stuff), without
> > > acknowledging that I have been where you are, Corallyn, and I do have
> > > sympathy for you and your situation.
> > >
> > > My husband and I recently joined a Couples' Self-Healing Circle. It
>has
> > been
> > > most valuable in helping us deal with some of our issues - differences
>in
> > > childrearing being one, especially since we are blended family (I have
>two
> > > girls from a previous marriage, he has a son and a daughter from two
> > > previous marriages and together we have Benjamin who is three).
> > >
> > > Anyway, I apologize for not being more sensitive to begin with. That
> > doesn't
> > > mean I feel any different or less passionate about the subject of
>spanking
> > > or other forms of punishment.
> > >
> > > Nicoletta
> > >
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > Addresses:
> > > Post message: [email protected]
> > > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > > List owner: [email protected]
> > > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 16
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 14:50:46 -0500
> From: "Pris" <x_t_sipr@...>
>Subject: Re: Re I am so angry
>
>now, there you go, that's a great way to look @ the situation and btw, you
>sound much better about things today, Marianne ...
>
>keep your chin up :)
>Pris
>WARNING: I cannot be help responsible for the above, as apparently my cats
>have learned how to type ...
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <tonitoni@...>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 2:08 PM
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re I am so angry
>
>
> > Thanks guys. I have cooled down now. The teacher is right about one
> > thing - my daughter does have time on her hands - thankgoodness -
> > time to enjoy the world and stop and smell the roses.
> > Marianne
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 17
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:52:06 EDT
> From: Jaam1224@...
>Subject: Re: Fw: new member and thanks
>
>Hi Cindy,
>Welcome! I have a friend who lives in O'Fallon MO and the rest of my
>family
>lives in various parts of MO (Central, West and a few South). I am a
>transplant to Florida now and have been here many years.....
>
>I agree with you, even though we "go down that road again" each time I take
>the journey I learn more and think more about life, children and
>parenting....Thanks everyone!
>Julie
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 18
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:07:23 -0700
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>Subject: Re: What Is Child Abuse & Neglect
>
>One component of physical injury is defined by CPS, the police and the
>medical profession as leaving marks which can result in bruising. Hence,
>repeated blows to the bare fanny of a small child would be defined as
>physical injury.
>
>Lynda
>
>----------
>From: Shirley A Richardson-McCourt <thediva@...>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Is Child Abuse & Neglect
>Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 4:50 AM
>
>What Is Child Abuse & NeglectThe ringer in the definition seems to be the
>requirement that physical injury take place. It says nothing about
>offending other people's sense of political correctness!
>
>Shirley (who doesn't spank but reserves judgement on those who do.)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: aworthen
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:13 AM
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] What Is Child Abuse & Neglect
>
>
>
>
> My Groups | Unschooling-dotcom Main Page | Start a new group!
>
>
>
>
>
> I hope this clears up any disagreement over "what defines abuse" Here is
>the law in black and white. It applies to all 50 states.
>
>
>
>
> "CHILD ABUSE PREVENTION AND TREATMENT ACT"
> The Public Law 100-294
>
> Defines child abuse and neglect as being any physical or mental injury,
>act of sexual abuse or exploitation, negligent treatment, or maltreatment
>of any child under the age of 18, unless the child protection law of the
>State in, which the child resides specifies a younger age for cases not
>involving sexual abuse, by a person, including any employee of a
>residential facility or any staff person providing out-of- home care, who
>is responsible for the child's welfare under circumstances, which indicate
>that the child's health or welfare is harmed or threatened thereby.
>
> The Act defines sexual abuse as: the use, employment, persuasion,
>inducement, enticement or coercion of any child to engage in, or assist any
>other person to engage in, any sexually explicit conduct (or any simulation
>of such conduct) for the purpose of producing any visual depiction of such
>conduct, or rape, molestation, prostitution, or other form of sexual
>exploitation of children, or incest with children.
>
>
>
>
>
> 1984 Child Abuse Amendments of (P.L. 98-457)
>
> As a result of the above amendment to the Child Abuse Act, the act now
>also includes the withholding of medically indicated treatment for an
>infant's life-threatening conditions as child abuse.
>
>
> WHAT IS MALTREATMENT ?
>
> The following categories basically all fit under the heading
>Maltreatment:
>
> PHYSICAL ABUSE
>
> Physical abuse is defined by inflicting any type of physical injury by
>punching, slapping, hitting, beating, kicking, biting, arm twisting, hair
>pulling, burning, or otherwise harming a child. The parent or care giver
>may not have intended to hurt the child and injury may have resulted from
>over-discipline or physical punishment that is inappropriate to the child's
>age. However, it is still abuse. Any physical act causing harm to a child
>is abuse whether it was intended or not.
>
> CHILD NEGLECT
>
> Child neglect is defined by failure on the parents or care givers part
>to
>provide for the child's basic needs, food, water, shelter, clothing and so
>on. Child neglect can be a combination of the following: physical,
>educational, or emotional or can be just one alone.
>
> The latest national incidence study defines these three types of neglect
>as follows.
>
> PHYSICAL NEGLECT
>
> Physical neglect includes refusal of or delay in seeking health care or
>emergency medical services, abandonment, kicking an under aged child out of
>the home. Not allowing a runaway to return home. Inadequate supervision,
>leaving the child unattended for long periods of time. Leaving an under
>aged child home alone to be responsible for younger siblings.
>
> EDUCATIONAL NEGLECT
>
> Educational neglect includes allowing your school aged child to commit
>the act of chronic truancy, failure to enroll a child of mandatory school
>age, every child has the right to education and should be in school
>according to your states guidelines. Inattention to a special educational
>need, such as knowing your child is in need of special education classes
>and doing nothing about it.
>
> EMOTIONAL NEGLECT
>
> Emotional neglect includes such actions as chronic or extreme spouse
>abuse in the child's presence. Knowledge of drug or alcohol use by the
>child, or permission. Refusal of or failure to allow or provide needed
>psychological care.
>
> It is extremely important to distinguish between willful neglect and a
>parent's or caretaker's failure to provide necessities of life because of
>poverty or cultural norms. Say for example, willful neglect is acts that
>call for Child Protective Services intervention. Whereas, if a parent who
>is unable to provide the necessities of life due to poverty may, instead,
>seek assistance from the governmental agencies charged with providing
>financial assistance, health services, housing, or other basic services.
>
> EMOTIONAL ABUSE
>
> Emotional abuse includes but is not limited to: Screaming, yelling,
>belittling, name calling, emotional detachment, lack of love and affection,
>scapegoating, such as blaming the child for the adults problems or
>financial state.
>
> As you've seen there are many forms of child maltreatment more often
>than
>not we find them occurring in combinations. Emotional/psychological will
>most likely always be present as well. Emotional abuse and neglect includes
>acts or omissions by the parents, guardians or any other person responsible
>for the child's care that have caused, or could possibly cause, serious
>behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders.
>
> In some cases of emotional/psychological abuse the acts of parents or
>other caretakers alone, without any harm evident in the child's behavior or
>condition, such as parents, guardian or care givers use excessive, extreme
>even sometimes bizarre forms of punishment, such as torture, or locking a
>child in a dark closet. These also are sufficient to warrant the
>intervention of Child Protective Services.
>
>
>
> LinkExchange Member Free Home Pages at GeoCities
>
>
>
>
> Please be kind and sign the guest book before leaving.
>
>
>
>
> This page was updated on: 29 June 1997
>
> What Is Child Abuse & Neglect� is a trademark of CAWSCORP, Inc.
> Copyright 1997. All rights reserved.
>
> URL: http://www.geocities.com/~guardianangels/
>
> Children Are Worth Saving Community OutReach Program: Creating
> abuse awareness,education, recognition, prevention & intervention
> because children's health and well being are our # 1 priority!
>
> Comments or questions: CAWS_CORP@...
>
> Main/Missing Children/Sexual Predators/Sexual Abuse/Child Abuse &
>Neglect
>
> Child Pornography/Domestic Violence/Protecting Your Child/National Abuse
>Helplines
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>Board
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>Story
>
> This site hosted by:
>
>
>
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> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
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> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 19
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:23:31 -0700
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>Subject: Re: Differences with DH
>
>Yes, that's it. Also, anyone who has ever raised children knows that
>although we can try to teach children responsibility for their actions, the
>degree of responsibility is directly tied to the age and maturity of a
>child. A child at that age has the responsibility attention span of a gnat
>(not a bad thing <g>), the curiosity of a cat and the urge to flutter
>around like a butterfly from one magnet to another.
>
>One of the true joys of unschooling is being able to let that imagination
>run free to all those natural (and quite frequently messy <g>) conclusions.
> Attempts to stifle that with unrealistic expectations that don't match
>the
>age of the child coupled with the given outside stimulus usually results in
>failure.
>
>Lynda
>
>----------
> > From: NumoAstro@...
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
> > Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 7:18 AM
>
> > > A four year old is a child and if the child got away from an adult,
> > it is the ADULT's responsibility! Period!
> > >
> >
> > You are absulutely right. It is my responsibility. I am responsible
> > for how I teach my children and at preasant the choices they make and
> > how I deal with those choices.
> >
> > I think Lynda was trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong Lynda)... that
>you
> > as the adult were responsible for your child running away and punishing
>the
> > child for your lack of responsibility doesn't seem to make any sense...
>There
> > is no judgement in that... It's just a fact... If you are the
>responsible
>one
> > for a situation and something happens in that situations, then I would
>be
>
> > apologizing to my son for not watching him well enough that he could get
>away
> > from me, not hitting him for something that children do... They don't
> > understand at 4 yrs old they could get lost or someone could hurt
>them...
>
> > They just see things that they like and off they go, which is why it's
>our
> > job as adults to not let that happen. But why should your son suffer
> > consequences for your inability to take care of him? It's just a
>thought...
> > and one I only just thought off....
> >
> > It doesn't make you a bad parent, just a typical reaction to the thought
>that
> > you are not perfect and chose to take an action that wasn't appropriate
>given
> > the situation. Why is it so difficult to admit a mistake. Spanking a
>child
> > because they ran away when it was the responsibility of the adult to
>make
>
> > sure they didn't run away doesn't make any logical sense to me and it
> > certainly wouldn't make any to a child.
> >
> > Just thinking out loud...
> >
> > Dawn
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 20
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:41:29 -0700
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>Subject: Re: Re: Differences with DH
>
>Corallyn,
>
>The problem I had was that you stated that you hit your child until your
>hand hurt. That presents a picture of going beyond a mere spanking and
>certainly far beyond a swat on the fanny. And the only reason that one
>could have for pulling down the pants and hitting the bare bottom is to
>make the experience more painful. I have no problem with someone getting a
>wake-up call such as a swift swat on their sitting down end or even a
>couple of swift ones with their clothing on.
>
>The experience of having the pants pulled down is one which creates a
>feeling of defenselessness, embarassment and degredation of self-esteem.
>
>Also, I am sure that there are other folks on the list that feel the same
>as I do, children do not belong to us, they are simply put into our care
>and they are not a sub species, they are simply SMALL people. I would not
>expect an adult to have their pants pulled down and get a beating,
>therefore I do not do that to a child simply because they are smaller and I
>have them in my power.
>
>But what was the real clincher were a few other statements that you made.
>Namely that your hubby feels they need a switch taken to them, that now is
>the time to begin using a switch (like there is some rule written that says
>at a certain age we begin using objects to hit children with) and you
>repeated saying that you would probably do it again. It was the sum total
>of what you did added to what you said and what you said you would still
>do.
>
>Lynda
>
>----------
> > From: Corallyn <hape2day@...>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH
> > Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:25 AM
> >
> >
> > I can see that it is your opinion that it doesn't matter what the
> > situation was. There is absolutely no good reason for spanking your
> > child. I can respect that opinion and I don't agree with it. I am not
> > going to defend myself any further because it is pointless. I agree
> > to disagree, as my mother tells me. And I can accept that. No hard
> > feelings. Corallyn : )
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], NumoAstro@a... wrote:
> > > > A four year old is a child and if the child got away from an
> > adult,
> > > it is the ADULT's responsibility! Period!
> > > >
> > >
> > > You are absulutely right. It is my responsibility. I am responsible
> > > for how I teach my children and at preasant the choices they make
> > and how I deal with those choices.
> > >
> > > I think Lynda was trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong
> > Lynda)...that you as the adult were responsible for your child
> > running away and punishing the child for your lack of responsibility
> > doesn't seem to make any sense... There is no judgement in that...
> > It's just a fact... If you are the responsible one for a situation
> > and something happens in that situations, then I would be apologizing
> > to my son for not watching him well enough that he could get away
> > from me, not hitting him for something that children do... They don't
> > understand at 4 yrs old they could get lost or someone could hurt
> > them...They just see things that they like and off they go, which is
> > why it's our job as adults to not let that happen. But why should
> > your son suffer consequences for your inability to take care of him?
> > It's just a thought...and one I only just thought off....It doesn't
> > make you a bad parent, just a typical reaction to the thought that
> > you are not perfect and chose to take an action that wasn't
> > appropriate given the situation. Why is it so difficult to admit a
> > mistake. Spanking a child because they ran away when it was the
> > responsibility of the adult to make sure they didn't run away doesn't
> > make any logical sense to me and it certainly wouldn't make any to a
> > child. Just thinking out loud...
> > >
> > > Dawn
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 21
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:25:48 -0700
> From: "Valerie" <valeries@...>
>Subject: re: Waldorf
>
>http://www.fortnet.org/rsws/waldorf/faq.html#1
>
>---Valerie
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 22
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:31:33 -0700
> From: "Valerie" <valeries@...>
>Subject: re: censorship--sex ed
>
>I found out why it's called "_Wild_ Discovery" when my two daughters
>watched
>the one about snakes. I never really thought about how snakes reproduce. I
>kind of wish we still didn't know...I was in bed with a bad back when all
>this happened. The next thing I hear is, "Mommy! Snakes have penises!" Oy.
>It was a wild discovery, all right.
>
>---Valerie
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 23
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 21:38:40 +0100
> From: "Tracy Oldfield" <tracy.oldfield@...>
>Subject: Re: RE: Food Issues ~ different problem is this a matt...
>
>This whole thread has reminded me of something I did when I
>was little (3 or 4yo, I think). Mum used to clean, and my big sis
>babysit (I don't think we ever got sat on, but I couldn't swear to
>that) for a neighbour of ours, and I used to go too. Well this
>woman had painted, in big red letters 'Don't let the b******s grind
>you down!!!' on her magnolia living room walls. I took the
>daughter of the house to get the can of paint, got it down, but it
>fell, and got EVERYWHERE!!! Well, we tried to clean it up, but
>failed (I need to explain that my babysitting big sis was asleep at
>this time) and went to the bathroom to clean ourselves. And
>accidentally made handprints (bright red paint, remember?) all the
>way up the wall. We were still upstairs when Mum came in, and
>the front door opened onto the stairway, so she saw all these
>handprints and thought someone had been slaughtered! There
>was paint everywhere. It's one of those famous family tales now.
> *grin*
>
>Tracy
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 24
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 22:09:33 +0100
> From: "Tracy Oldfield" <tracy.oldfield@...>
>Subject: RE: re; different problem...wills
>
>On the subject of 'body-art' my dh has a bit of a problem with
>that, but I don't. Particularly since dd2 (or ds2, for 'demon-spawn'
>not dear son...any fellow Dungeon Keepers out there? LOL) told
>me that she was drawing on herself 'for protection,' totally
>unprompted (ie i hadn't asked her what she was doing or why she
>was doing it.) I don't mess with natural talent *grin*
>
>Tracy
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 25
> Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 22:21:49 +0100
> From: "Tracy Oldfield" <tracy.oldfield@...>
>Subject: Re: RE: Food Issues ~ different problem is this a matt...
>
>Mum tells a story of giving precise instructions to kids. A friend
>of hers was in bed feeling rough, and they were skint, too. Her
>daughter asked her if they had a clean hankercheif, they didn't.
>The mum told the girl to cut a square from a curtain. She did.
>Right in the middle of the curtain... What can you do? The child
>did as she was told...
>
>Tracy
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>

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aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: starshine *** <starshine_lal@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 1:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 762


>
> I had a bit of a surprise today when I read the CHILD ABUSE PREVENTION &
> TREATMENT ACT/WHAT DEFINES ABUSE? regarding "EDUCATIONAL NEGLECT" It said
> that one form of educ. neglect was "failure to enroll a child of mandatory
> school age"
>
> As unschoolers, do you enroll your child once they are school age???

I do. Well, I submit a letter of intent to homeschool. Where we are, that's
conscidered having your child enrolled. I think what the act was refering to
is those that don't tell anyone they're hsing.

Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey

Corallyn

--- In [email protected], "aworthen" <aworthen@m...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: starshine *** <starshine_lal@h...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 1:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 762
>
>
> I had a bit of a surprise today when I read the CHILD ABUSE
PREVENTION & TREATMENT ACT/WHAT DEFINES ABUSE? regarding "EDUCATIONAL
NEGLECT" It said that one form of educ. neglect was "failure to
enroll a child of mandatory school age" As unschoolers, do you enroll
your child once they are school age???
>

In the state of Texas there is no regulation on HSers. This includes
reporting your decission to hs to the state/school. If you do
call/write to inform the state, they basicly send out a packet that
gives very general info about sorces to use but don't endorce any one
sorce and if a truent officer comes to your door all you have to do
is tell them you are homeschooling. If they continue to come to your
door and press the issue they have a law suit on their hands. Corallyn

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/04/2000 5:47:00 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
starshine_lal@... writes:

<<
As unschoolers, do you enroll your child once they are school age??? >>


We live in Florida and it is the law that the children be registered with the
county. I have sent in a letter. Once -- at the beginning of their hsing
career. Then an annual evaluation after that.

Nance

Lynda

Starshine,

You need to cut and paste when you answer digest.

Lynda

----------
> From: starshine *** <starshine_lal@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 762
> Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:46 PM
>