Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] our bodies
[email protected]
What makes me really cringe is to see some poor child walking around with a
swollen belly due to hunger, and bugs crawling all over his/her face, and
then have some person try to tell me that there should be more children in
this situation. What makes me sick is when people on TV try to tell me to
help save that child, feed, clothe, and give the child medical care, when it
is all I can do to feed my one and only child. I think that the people who
want abortion outlawed should have to adopt each and every child who is
unwanted, that is the only way that I would ever agree to it. My husband is
a detective with a police department in a major city. He also happens to be
with the child abuse division. There are literally millions of children
within each and every city that are abused and neglected because the parents
do not want them! Give me one good and logical reason we should add to
these atrocities! Look at all the unwanted orphans in places like Albania!
They sit in orphanages, unwanted and unloved, until they become so disturbed
that they attempt murder at the ripe old age of 2 or 3 years! That makes me
a lot sicker than someone who terminates a pregnancy before they have the
chance to destroy yet another human being. Then, as if that is not enough,
look at how over populated and polluted the earth is!!!! My greatest wish is
that the people who put so much passion in to pro-life movement, put as much
effort and passion in to improving the world (families, hate, violence, child
abuse, pollution, etc.) before bringing more babies into it and before yet
another life is destroyed (after being born).
Amy
swollen belly due to hunger, and bugs crawling all over his/her face, and
then have some person try to tell me that there should be more children in
this situation. What makes me sick is when people on TV try to tell me to
help save that child, feed, clothe, and give the child medical care, when it
is all I can do to feed my one and only child. I think that the people who
want abortion outlawed should have to adopt each and every child who is
unwanted, that is the only way that I would ever agree to it. My husband is
a detective with a police department in a major city. He also happens to be
with the child abuse division. There are literally millions of children
within each and every city that are abused and neglected because the parents
do not want them! Give me one good and logical reason we should add to
these atrocities! Look at all the unwanted orphans in places like Albania!
They sit in orphanages, unwanted and unloved, until they become so disturbed
that they attempt murder at the ripe old age of 2 or 3 years! That makes me
a lot sicker than someone who terminates a pregnancy before they have the
chance to destroy yet another human being. Then, as if that is not enough,
look at how over populated and polluted the earth is!!!! My greatest wish is
that the people who put so much passion in to pro-life movement, put as much
effort and passion in to improving the world (families, hate, violence, child
abuse, pollution, etc.) before bringing more babies into it and before yet
another life is destroyed (after being born).
Amy
> >Anyway, the past is the past, what has
> >happened, happened. It is the horrors and
> >attrocities TODAY that need attention.
> >For example: child abuse ~ in it's most
> >heinous form - abortion . . . . and this
> >crosses ALL races! It doesn't matter if
> >you are black or white or native American
> >or whatever - all you have to be is tiny
> >and silent and hidden in your mother's
> >womb . . . . and you have less rights in
> >the entire history of mankind.
>
[email protected]
I agree on many points Amy has brought up (adoption from other countries and
tons of abuse in our country), but I don't believe abortion is the answer to
over-population or the solution to not wanting a baby ....(this is going to
sound crude and there are exceptions to everything) but I have a huge problem
with women using abortion as a means of birth control. If they aren't ready
to be a parent, use birth control or keep their legs shut! These tiny baby's
did NOTHING to deserve been flushed out of there safe home. They did not
asked to be conceived. There are a lot of parents who want infants to adopt,
but few women are willing to make the sacrifices needed for the nine months
the baby needs to survive in our world. (This is my personal opinion) I feel
these women are selfish and are willing to take more chances of getting
pregnant because they have an the option of taking the easy road with
abortion.
I am simply stating my opinion, and do not wish to make others anger, just
offering food for thought....
Julie
BTW, this is one of my pet peeves, in case you had not noticed! : )
tons of abuse in our country), but I don't believe abortion is the answer to
over-population or the solution to not wanting a baby ....(this is going to
sound crude and there are exceptions to everything) but I have a huge problem
with women using abortion as a means of birth control. If they aren't ready
to be a parent, use birth control or keep their legs shut! These tiny baby's
did NOTHING to deserve been flushed out of there safe home. They did not
asked to be conceived. There are a lot of parents who want infants to adopt,
but few women are willing to make the sacrifices needed for the nine months
the baby needs to survive in our world. (This is my personal opinion) I feel
these women are selfish and are willing to take more chances of getting
pregnant because they have an the option of taking the easy road with
abortion.
I am simply stating my opinion, and do not wish to make others anger, just
offering food for thought....
Julie
BTW, this is one of my pet peeves, in case you had not noticed! : )
[email protected]
> unwanted, that is the only way that I would ever agree to it. My husband isI agree in general with your post, but... most cities don't even have millions
> a detective with a police department in a major city. He also happens to be
> with the child abuse division. There are literally millions of children
> within each and every city that are abused and neglected because the parents
> do not want them! Give me one good and logical reason we should add to
of people. And I doubt even New York (population 7 million) has a million
neglected children. I'm not sure it even has a million people under the age
of 18, loved or not... eh, it probably does. But LA wouldn't.
Yours in accuracy and pedantry,
-xx- Damien X-)
Sue
On 16 Aug 2000, at 12:18, phoenix@... wrote:
worse in children who's mothers have had pregnancy terminations.
I was an abused child, and I would rather have been born then
abused than to have been terminated.
Sue
The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm
"To believe in something, and not to live it,
is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi
> > within each and every city that are abused and neglected because the parentsYes, but statistics on child abuse show that it is generally much
> > do not want them! Give me one good and logical reason we should add to
worse in children who's mothers have had pregnancy terminations.
I was an abused child, and I would rather have been born then
abused than to have been terminated.
Sue
The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm
"To believe in something, and not to live it,
is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi
Karen Paulson
My husband is a police
officer, too. He has been on the force for 12 yrs, He has had some
occasions of child abuse, but in no way has he encountered masses of abused and
neglected children. By far, adult drinking and fighting, and thefts occur
here much more often. In his experience, most families love their children
and want them. We live in Ind. ~Karen
----- Original Message -----From: phoenix@...Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 2:18 PMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] our bodies> unwanted, that is the only way that I would ever agree to it. My husband is
> a detective with a police department in a major city. He also happens to be
> with the child abuse division. There are literally millions of children
> within each and every city that are abused and neglected because the parents
> do not want them! Give me one good and logical reason we should add to
I agree in general with your post, but... most cities don't even have millions
of people. And I doubt even New York (population 7 million) has a million
neglected children. I'm not sure it even has a million people under the age
of 18, loved or not... eh, it probably does. But LA wouldn't.
Yours in accuracy and pedantry,
-xx- Damien X-)
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Tracy Oldfield
Many things need to be done for this world to be truly fit for
human (and every other creature's) habitation. I agree that there
are other, much more natural methods of maiking sure the humans
don't plunder the Earth and spoil it for the rest of life, like the
encouragement of a return to natural breastfeeding, as effective a
contraceptive as anything else, for the first 6 months at least, and
for most people, much longer.
As someone who chose to abort a pregnancy after the father
withdrew his support, I disagree with the comment about keeping
one's legs shut. I believed that a child needs a mother and a
mother needs a supportive partner, and still do believe this, and so
I released the child's spirit before more damage was done to it.
And since I believe that we choose our own lives, and our own
parents, I must disagree with the comment that the child did not
ask to be conceived. If you prefer to believe that the body we
inhabit is not of our choosing, that is your right. For those who are
interested in another pov, there's a poem here that I like, and may
be comforting to someone faced with the difficult decision of
continuing or not with a pregnancy.
http://www.yoni.com/motherf/unbornchild.shtml
One of my pet peeves is assumptions about other women's
choices. I had chosen to become part of a family, with a partner
and child. My partner chose otherwise, and so I chose once
more, to not inflict the life I would have led on my child and
myself.
Yours thoughtfully
Tracy
human (and every other creature's) habitation. I agree that there
are other, much more natural methods of maiking sure the humans
don't plunder the Earth and spoil it for the rest of life, like the
encouragement of a return to natural breastfeeding, as effective a
contraceptive as anything else, for the first 6 months at least, and
for most people, much longer.
As someone who chose to abort a pregnancy after the father
withdrew his support, I disagree with the comment about keeping
one's legs shut. I believed that a child needs a mother and a
mother needs a supportive partner, and still do believe this, and so
I released the child's spirit before more damage was done to it.
And since I believe that we choose our own lives, and our own
parents, I must disagree with the comment that the child did not
ask to be conceived. If you prefer to believe that the body we
inhabit is not of our choosing, that is your right. For those who are
interested in another pov, there's a poem here that I like, and may
be comforting to someone faced with the difficult decision of
continuing or not with a pregnancy.
http://www.yoni.com/motherf/unbornchild.shtml
One of my pet peeves is assumptions about other women's
choices. I had chosen to become part of a family, with a partner
and child. My partner chose otherwise, and so I chose once
more, to not inflict the life I would have led on my child and
myself.
Yours thoughtfully
Tracy
On 16 Aug 2000, at 15:11, Jaam1224@... wrote:
These tiny baby's
did NOTHING to deserve been flushed out of there safe
home. They did not
asked to be conceived. There are a lot of parents who
want infants to adopt,
but few women are willing to make the sacrifices needed
for the nine months
the baby needs to survive in our world. (This is my
personal opinion) I feel
these women are selfish and are willing to take more
chances of getting
pregnant because they have an the option of taking the
easy road with
abortion.
I am simply stating my opinion, and do not wish to make
others anger, just
offering food for thought....
Julie
BTW, this is one of my pet peeves, in case you had not
noticed! : )
David Albert
M & J Welch wrote:
> My opinion, for what it's worth:It has not yet been conclusively
> proven/agreed upon when the moment that divine spark enters an unborn
> child's being. I'm not certain this can ever be proven, since it
> involves the private spiritual beliefs of the person making the
> decision. Because it involves the *beliefs* of the person making the
> decision, this is a morality issue, not a legal one. No matter my
> personal beliefs about the issue of abortion, I absolutely do not
> support the legislation of morality-for any reason, in any case
>
> While I am close to your view on abortion, are you sure you don't
> support legislation of morality? Laws against murder, rape, theft,
> etc.?
>
> I suspect your reply might be (but don't let me speak for you) that
> abortion is different, because a person has it done to themselves, or
> it is a "victimless crime". But that's what the abortion debate is
> all about, to begin with, isn't it?
>
> Even for these other crimes, the legislation of morality is complex.
> Not all killing is murder, legally. And, I might argue, there are
> times when theft (i.e. if one is starving) might be justified. All
> intriguing issues. But clearly ones I'd hope we'd legislate.
>
> David
M & J Welch
Hi David. I was thinking about this very question as I typed:
"victimless crime" is close. The "victim" factor in an abortion cannot be
measured without some level of spiritual bias, since the very
nature/definition of the victim is in question. However, in a rape or murder
where the victim is a person whom is unquestionably sentient and
alive-irregardless of personal beliefs, the crime clearly has a victim.
legislation in existence which is not based on morality of some sort, but in
these cases the ethic of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the
few" seems to guide what legislation takes place. As soon as humans began
to live in societies of significant numbers, certain necessary "rules"
became evident to ensure the safety of the civilization and individual
property rights. Let's be harsh for a moment, and say: since unborn babies
are not yet "property", but the woman carrying the child is, her welfare
overrides the potential real estate inside her womb. I suppose this leads
me to argue that making abortion illegal doesn't serve the purpose of
ensuring the safety of the civilization, people and property at large in the
U.S.-excepting in a purely long distance survival/future shock sort of way.
Given the world population dilemma, this is not something which is much of a
concern right now.
To those reading-I use the term "property" in the most abstract sense. I in
no way consider babies or women property, but truly they were considered so
in the past, and unfortunately are still in some cultures. (Strangely,
probably in those cultures which do not allow abortion.)
All that above said, I know I would be a horrible Justice of the Peace,
since I decide most everything on a case by case standard. I have never
heard of or experienced any life rules of conduct, no matter how black or
white, that don't have an exception.
Lee
> While I am close to your view on abortion, are you sure you don'tYour supposition that I would state abortion is different since it is a
> support legislation of morality? Laws against murder, rape, theft,
> etc.?
"victimless crime" is close. The "victim" factor in an abortion cannot be
measured without some level of spiritual bias, since the very
nature/definition of the victim is in question. However, in a rape or murder
where the victim is a person whom is unquestionably sentient and
alive-irregardless of personal beliefs, the crime clearly has a victim.
> Even for these other crimes, the legislation of morality is complex.Excellent points. It would be foolish of me to think there is any
> Not all killing is murder, legally. And, I might argue, there are
> times when theft (i.e. if one is starving) might be justified. All
> intriguing issues. But clearly ones I'd hope we'd legislate.
legislation in existence which is not based on morality of some sort, but in
these cases the ethic of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the
few" seems to guide what legislation takes place. As soon as humans began
to live in societies of significant numbers, certain necessary "rules"
became evident to ensure the safety of the civilization and individual
property rights. Let's be harsh for a moment, and say: since unborn babies
are not yet "property", but the woman carrying the child is, her welfare
overrides the potential real estate inside her womb. I suppose this leads
me to argue that making abortion illegal doesn't serve the purpose of
ensuring the safety of the civilization, people and property at large in the
U.S.-excepting in a purely long distance survival/future shock sort of way.
Given the world population dilemma, this is not something which is much of a
concern right now.
To those reading-I use the term "property" in the most abstract sense. I in
no way consider babies or women property, but truly they were considered so
in the past, and unfortunately are still in some cultures. (Strangely,
probably in those cultures which do not allow abortion.)
All that above said, I know I would be a horrible Justice of the Peace,
since I decide most everything on a case by case standard. I have never
heard of or experienced any life rules of conduct, no matter how black or
white, that don't have an exception.
Lee
Lynda
That stat is something the pro-lifers invented! No such statistics are
kept when intake is done on an abuse case.
Lynda
----------
kept when intake is done on an abuse case.
Lynda
----------
> From: Sue <sue.m.e@...>parents
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] our bodies
> Date: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 1:23 PM
>
> On 16 Aug 2000, at 12:18, phoenix@... wrote:
>
>
> > > within each and every city that are abused and neglected because the
> > > do not want them! Give me one good and logical reason we should addto
>
> Yes, but statistics on child abuse show that it is generally much
> worse in children who's mothers have had pregnancy terminations.
>
> I was an abused child, and I would rather have been born then
> abused than to have been terminated.
>
>
>
>
> Sue
>
> The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
> My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
> Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
> Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm
>
> "To believe in something, and not to live it,
> is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
Lynda
Well, this is a two way street. Yes, more women should take responsibility
for their actions, however, the resulting life should not be punished
because someone thinks they should be forced to have that unwanted child.
This isn't a perfect world and no one has the right to make moral decisions
for someone else. If the pro-lifers have their way there will be many
deaths from back alley abortions. There will also be instances of women
having to go to term and then delivering terminally deformed or dead
fetuses. We had several cases of fetuses that were not complete and would
have continued to term but would have "died" shortly after birth and would
have only lived that short time on machines.
I had the misfortune of working in the radiology department of a large
hospital. All the child abuse cases came through our department as the law
required full body x-rays to be done to check for prior injuries. While
some of you may express the sentiments that you would rather be abused than
aborted, I'm sure there are others that would disagree. I'm sure the child
we came to know as "Sunny" would have preferred not to be born than to have
cigerettes put out on his little legs; than to have needles broken off
under his fingernails; than to be thrown through a window and left outside
all night; than to be later returned to his parents because they were
"cured" after counseling. Did I mention that "Sunny" was 11 months old and
that we were all threatened with jail because we faked continuing medical
problems and kept him in the hospital for 3 extra months. Oh, in case I
forgot to mention it, 6 weeks after we were forced to release him from the
hospital to his parents, he was dead. AND, at the trial, the mother was
heard to say "See, if I'd had that abortion we wouldn't be going to jail
now."
I can give you lots more of those kind of cases that I personally
witnessed.
Lynda, who quite working there because she was about 1 day away from
murdering some sorry excuse for a parent!
----------
for their actions, however, the resulting life should not be punished
because someone thinks they should be forced to have that unwanted child.
This isn't a perfect world and no one has the right to make moral decisions
for someone else. If the pro-lifers have their way there will be many
deaths from back alley abortions. There will also be instances of women
having to go to term and then delivering terminally deformed or dead
fetuses. We had several cases of fetuses that were not complete and would
have continued to term but would have "died" shortly after birth and would
have only lived that short time on machines.
I had the misfortune of working in the radiology department of a large
hospital. All the child abuse cases came through our department as the law
required full body x-rays to be done to check for prior injuries. While
some of you may express the sentiments that you would rather be abused than
aborted, I'm sure there are others that would disagree. I'm sure the child
we came to know as "Sunny" would have preferred not to be born than to have
cigerettes put out on his little legs; than to have needles broken off
under his fingernails; than to be thrown through a window and left outside
all night; than to be later returned to his parents because they were
"cured" after counseling. Did I mention that "Sunny" was 11 months old and
that we were all threatened with jail because we faked continuing medical
problems and kept him in the hospital for 3 extra months. Oh, in case I
forgot to mention it, 6 weeks after we were forced to release him from the
hospital to his parents, he was dead. AND, at the trial, the mother was
heard to say "See, if I'd had that abortion we wouldn't be going to jail
now."
I can give you lots more of those kind of cases that I personally
witnessed.
Lynda, who quite working there because she was about 1 day away from
murdering some sorry excuse for a parent!
----------
> From: Jaam1224@...and
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] our bodies
> Date: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 12:11 PM
>
> I agree on many points Amy has brought up (adoption from other countries
> tons of abuse in our country), but I don't believe abortion is the answerto
> over-population or the solution to not wanting a baby ....(this is goingto
> sound crude and there are exceptions to everything) but I have a hugeproblem
> with women using abortion as a means of birth control. If they aren'tready
> to be a parent, use birth control or keep their legs shut! These tinybaby's
> did NOTHING to deserve been flushed out of there safe home. They did notadopt,
> asked to be conceived. There are a lot of parents who want infants to
> but few women are willing to make the sacrifices needed for the ninemonths
> the baby needs to survive in our world. (This is my personal opinion) Ifeel
> these women are selfish and are willing to take more chances of gettingjust
> pregnant because they have an the option of taking the easy road with
> abortion.
>
> I am simply stating my opinion, and do not wish to make others anger,
> offering food for thought....
>
> Julie
> BTW, this is one of my pet peeves, in case you had not noticed! : )
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
[email protected]
very good points, Lee! I do not wish to have a debate over a moral issue,
escpecially one we will never agree on. To each his own....
Julie
escpecially one we will never agree on. To each his own....
Julie
Tracy Oldfield
Sounds to me like you'd make an Excellent JP!!! LOL
Tracy
Tracy
On 16 Aug 2000, at 23:51, M & J Welch wrote:
All that above said, I know I would be a horrible
Justice of the Peace,
since I decide most everything on a case by case
standard. I have never
heard of or experienced any life rules of conduct, no
matter how black or
white, that don't have an exception.
Lee