[email protected]

Hi, I'm new to this on-line business, but I have kept up on the reading for
5 days! I have hsed my two daughters for 5 years (that excluded 3 years in
Germany where hs is definitely illegal, but that's another story). They are
now aged 12 and 14.

I left my wonderful hs support group last week feeling very discouraged and
numb. So many of the kids who are my oldest girl's age are going back to
school. If they are not returning to school they are becoming much more
structured in their learning in preparation for "real life" (as in
university or jobs).

I rebel against that while at the same time I second-guess my gut reaction
that there has got to be a way to continue the way we have learned for 5
years (mostly unschooling with a little structure for math). I know that
there are others out there that have unschooled all they way through and
still "made it" in the real world.

Is there anyone out there that can help an anxious mother over another
anxiety attack!!

Kathy Thiessen

Andi Kaufman

kathy wrote:
>I rebel against that while at the same time I second-guess my gut reaction
>that there has got to be a way to continue the way we have learned for 5
>years (mostly unschooling with a little structure for math). I know that
>there are others out there that have unschooled all they way through and
>still "made it" in the real world.
>
>Is there anyone out there that can help an anxious mother over another
>anxiety attack!!


Are your kids wanting the structure too. if not then dont worry. They may
not be intersted in it at all. And if they really want to. well isnt that
the point of homeschooling. to me it is. the kids get to choose too.

Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...

Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!

::she just is::

Hi Kathy,

I know a lot of teen unschoolers, as well as some who are adults or almost.
One of my best friends, Margaret, has been an unschooler for years and has
decided she'd like to travel to various places of the world (she just got
back from France). Another person I know has been unschooled all his life
and is now doing professional webpage designing.

However, I do believe there are ways to get a high school diploma and still
stick to the unschooling thing. I've heard good things about clonlara (sp?),
which is a school that's supportive of the home/unschooling style -- I
believe you can get a diploma through there. Also, if your kids want to get
into college, they could take a GED test, which would be the equivalent of a
diploma.

Hope this helps!

~Eryn, fifteen-year-old unschooler

==
"I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky;
then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of
being a butterfuly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am
a man?" - Chuang Tsu
http://www.camenaworks.com/Eryn/
#24591173 ::she just is::
AIM :: Opal Fayre



>Hi, I'm new to this on-line business, but I have kept up on the reading for
>5 days! I have hsed my two daughters for 5 years (that excluded 3 years in
>Germany where hs is definitely illegal, but that's another story). They are
>now aged 12 and 14.
>
>I left my wonderful hs support group last week feeling very discouraged and
>numb. So many of the kids who are my oldest girl's age are going back to
>school. If they are not returning to school they are becoming much more
>structured in their learning in preparation for "real life" (as in
>university or jobs).
>
>I rebel against that while at the same time I second-guess my gut reaction
>that there has got to be a way to continue the way we have learned for 5
>years (mostly unschooling with a little structure for math). I know that
>there are others out there that have unschooled all they way through and
>still "made it" in the real world.
>
>Is there anyone out there that can help an anxious mother over another
>anxiety attack!!
>
>Kathy Thiessen

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

At 11:09 PM 6/17/99 -0600, you wrote:
>From: vthiesse@...
So many of the kids who are my oldest girl's age are going back to
>school. If they are not returning to school they are becoming much more
>structured in their learning in preparation for "real life" (as in
>university or jobs).
>Kathy Thiessen

Since when is the school system like the real world? How many people find
themselves in similar social situations in their adult life? Even
university life is very unlike ps. The people in universities range in
ages and life conditions (parents, working, fresh out of ps, etc) and are
there mostly because they want to be. They have to pay for the privelege,
and the instructors are, for the most part, aware of this and treat their
students in an adult and respectful manner.

Anyone have a job, or know of anyone who does, that is even remotely like
the situation in ps? I don't think there are very many, if any at all.
Unless you are talking about people who hate their jobs and/or have bosses
who treat them as sub-human, (a line of conversation that is also currently
being bandied about here,) and do we really want our kids preparing for
THAT?

Still, that only covers parent-student relations, which as we all know are
only a fraction of the ps social curriculum. How many people eat lunch
every day in a really bad cafateria with hundereds (or thousands) of
others, given a choice? How many people even interact with those size
crowds on a daily basis if they are not celebrities, politicians, public
speakers or other minorities who make their living in the public eye?
Those professions are chosen, and they work with crowds because they love
the work, or because it is a symptom of the job that is unavoiable, and ps
cannot prepare you for that kind of exposure anyway. Many people in those
professions (most of whom were educated in ps) crack under the pressure, or
are crucified by the public for their human failings.

I have heard the same arguments from friends about ps preparing you for
"real life," and I would like to know HOW exactly it accomplishes this.
Does anyone know in what ways ps prepares you for the "real world"??? I
have a problem with those phrases too, "real life" and "real world."
Public School, for almost everyone, even successful students, is one of the
hardest things they will ever do. It is more stressful, degrading,
tiresome, tortuous, and emotionally battering than most things you will do
in life. Is this supposed to be a trial by fire for our young, fragile and
impressionable kids? Or are they supposed to come to expect this from the
rest of their "real lives??"

Please excuse the tirade, but we are in the middle of our adoption
homestudy paperwork and they keep asking us for essay answers on what our
philosphy and beliefs are on child rearing, education, and culture. These
issues, while always important, are close to the surface for me right now,
and come welling up readily with the least provocation! ;-)

Nanci K. in Idaho

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/18/99 01:18:35 AM, vthiesse@... writes:

<< I left my wonderful hs support group last week feeling very discouraged and
numb. So many of the kids who are my oldest girl's age are going back to
school. If they are not returning to school they are becoming much more
structured in their learning in preparation for "real life" (as in
university or jobs). >>

My oldest daughters are almost 11 and 14. I too believe strongly in
unschooling, but I understand what you're saying. I also think "outside
pressure" increases at the high school level. Most people I think accept
homeschooling in the early years but at high school most I think assume
"well, of course you'll send them to school." Again I believe that your
heart/intuition is telling you you're doing the right thing. I know I am.
My girls and I love being together (I have three younger kids, too) and this
time together will come to an end only too soon. I hope this has helped.
Maybe your girls would like penpals? My girls I know would love to
correspond. Let me know. By the way, where are you from? Have you ever
been to a Clonlara or GWS conference? They are very affirming and
empowering. Also Cafi Cohen's web site talks a lot about older kids. Kimme

Carol E. Burris

Kathy,

I think that your experience, with not finding many high school
aged homeschoolers much less unschoolers, is common. There are
many reasons for this. As phone contact for high school
homeschooling for my local support group (and mother of two high
school aged unschoolers myself) I have heard a lot of them. One
thing that seems to loom largely in some parents mind in my
experience which no one else has touched on here is the issue of
high school credits. Up until high school, parents can feel that
homeschooling is a year by year decision; if it doesn't work out,
they can always go back to school. In my state, and I suspect
it's true in most states, high school is different. The state
says they have to have a certain number of credits to graduate.
So, if there is any chance that the child might enter high school
at some point, there has to be some way to account for credits
earned or they will end up repeating the missed grades. So,
parents may opt to send their kids to high school to avoid that
problem. Or, they may chose to work with an umbrella school such
as Clonlara, Oak Meadow, and all the rest to have documentation
of their child's work. This generally leads to more structure.
Each family has to do what is right for them.

But, you are not alone and there are others of us out here who
continue to successful unschool throughout the high school
years. However, you are also not alone in finding it
increasingly difficult to find local, compatible families with
kids near your kids ages. And we live in the middle of 5 million
people....

Carol

Carol Burris
Friend of Ishmael
The world shines bright with endless possibilities each time a
child is born.

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

At 08:27 AM 6/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: "Carol E. Burris" <excaliburris@...>
>
>Kathy,
>
One thing that seems to loom largely in some parents mind in my
>experience which no one else has touched on here is the issue of
>high school credits.
>So, if there is any chance that the child might enter high school
>at some point, there has to be some way to account for credits
>earned or they will end up repeating the missed grades. So,
>parents may opt to send their kids to high school to avoid that
>problem.
>Carol

Another issue no one has mentioned is college entrance. There are quite a
number of colleges that also look at highschool GPA's to guage student
entrance qualifications. There is also the fact that better highschools
have a number of sports and extra cirricular activities that kids may not
be able to participate in elsewhere. For example: School Newspapers,
Student Body government, Fencing Teams, School Dances, Use of lab
facitlities for Science projects, Photography Darkroom facilities, Drama
Club stage productions, Cheerleading Teams and competitions, Gymnastics
teams and competitions, Debate Teams, Football teams, Basketball teams, and
others I can't think of right now. I realize that many of these might be
available in forms outside of school for those who live in larger areas.
But for those of you who, like me, live in a town of 40-50,000 or less the
options are limited and the one your child is interested in may not be
available anywhere besides school.

Of course, when my kids reach highschool we may be living in a larger city,
or there may be other options available here at that time, or they may not
be interested in any of the activities that they do not have access to. So
I can't spend too much energy worrying about that now. However, I am
wondering something. I heard that kids are allowed to participate in
certain school activites in their district even if they are not enrolled in
the school system. Anyone know some examples of what types of activities
kids are allowed to partake in? Does this extend to the highschool level?
Obviously they could not be in Student Government, but what about School
Sports Teams, Cheerleading and dances? It seems that these in particular
would be focused on the student body only. I know that there are many
schools that do not allow non-students to go to dances at all, even as a
student's date, and I also know there there are some schools that do not
allow non-students on the school campus at all. Anyone have any
information about this?

Nanci K. in Idaho

Carol E. Burris

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall wrote:

> Another issue no one has mentioned is college entrance. There are quite a
> number of colleges that also look at highschool GPA's to guage student
> entrance qualifications.

For what it's worth, I don't think high school GPAs are that important anymore,
unless they are going to a school that the particular college admission office
is familiar with. Grade inflation and multiple grading systems (4 point
system? or 5 or 6 point system that they use around here?) makes GPAs often
meaningless for admissions folks. DH serves on some admission committees for
professional students (post bachelor's degree) and they don't give too much
weight to GPAs because they really aren't comparable from school to school. The
board scores make more of an impact.

That being said, my daughter was admitted to her first choice college on the
very day she took the SATs, so her scores weren't considered at all. However,
she had interviewed and they knew she was a homeschooler. The other colleges
that accepted her waited for her SAT scores. But then she decided not to go to
college, but that's another story.

> However, I am wondering something. I heard that kids are allowed to
> participate in certain school activites in their district even if they are
> not enrolled in the school system. Anyone know some examples of what types
> of activities kids are allowed to partake in? Does this extend to the
> highschool level?

As to this, it is my understanding that depends on where you live. Supposedly
it is true here (south Florida) but I don't personally know of anyone doing it.
It's a fairly recent law change here.

Carol

Friend of Ishmael
The world shines bright with endless possibilities each time a child is born.

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/21/99 7:50:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:

> Anyone know some examples of what types of activities
> kids are allowed to partake in? Does this extend to the highschool level?

I work in an umbrella homeschool organization and we have enrollees from all
over the country (and world) for what is essentially a correspondence course
in our high school program. Some of my students do take classes or
participate in activities at their local ps. As far as I can tell, it's
entirely up to each district to decide whether they're going to allow it and
what exactly they'll allow.

As to the other part of the discussion, I can tell you the reasons I hear
most often from parents who previously hs'd entirely on their own (but they
are almost always hser's not unschoolers) as to why they decided to enroll
with us for high school:
1. Wanting a transcript/grades from an outside source of classes (for
college)
2. Feeling that their child(ren) need to be accountable to someone outside
the family
3. Feeling unable to teach one or more classes (we don't teach in a
day-to-day sense, but we do evaluate work)
4. Wanting a diploma (sometimes for college, but sometimes just because the
student wants a formal recognition)

As to what colleges look for, that also seems to vary. When parents ask me
about this, I always tell them to contact the colleges they're interested in
and ask.

Elizabeth