Divorce (was Re: Music Lessons)
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm here to read for inspiration and to remind myself of the path
that I'm on and that
it will get better when my life is my own again and I can parent the
way I
know I'm meant to, and to nurture my children without having to look
over my
shoulder.-=-
I'm sorry you were in an abusive relationship and I hope things do get
better.
It frequently happens that in the case of divorce, though, neither
parent has as much leeway as before, and never as much as they
potentially had as a couple.
Often a divorced mom has to look over her shoulder at the ex husband,
his relatives, social workers and court orders. New partners can come
along for either ex and change the balance again, and again.
The ill effects of divorce can undo much of the potential benefit of
unschooling, though unschooling can also be a healing tool in some
circumstances.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/partners
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that I'm on and that
it will get better when my life is my own again and I can parent the
way I
know I'm meant to, and to nurture my children without having to look
over my
shoulder.-=-
I'm sorry you were in an abusive relationship and I hope things do get
better.
It frequently happens that in the case of divorce, though, neither
parent has as much leeway as before, and never as much as they
potentially had as a couple.
Often a divorced mom has to look over her shoulder at the ex husband,
his relatives, social workers and court orders. New partners can come
along for either ex and change the balance again, and again.
The ill effects of divorce can undo much of the potential benefit of
unschooling, though unschooling can also be a healing tool in some
circumstances.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/partners
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michele Sears
>As a homeschooling (single) mother of 3 whose husband had a long-term
>
> It frequently happens that in the case of divorce, though, neither
> parent has as much leeway as before, and never as much as they
> potentially had as a couple.
>
> Often a divorced mom has to look over her shoulder at the ex husband,
> his relatives, social workers and court orders. New partners can come
> along for either ex and change the balance again, and again.
>
> The ill effects of divorce can undo much of the potential benefit of
> unschooling, though unschooling can also be a healing tool in some
> circumstances.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/divorce
> http://sandradodd.com/partners
>
>
affair and was only interested in blame (after 1 year of me trying
everything I could find to repair our marriage (not knowing about the
affair), including MUCH self-reflection and changing of my ways) my
biggest fear was exactly what you write (that divorce is an
unchangeable decline on all fronts, for both the parents and the
children). I am 4 years in to a divorce, and have learned that
children desperately want their parents to love each other, respect
each other, and love them. This can be easily done within a divorce.
They want them together also, and this will always be a source of
grief for them, as this is what definitely changes.
However, all is not bleak, and I write this for those of you that read
the links posted in Sandra's e-mail and feel despair. In my case, I
have embraced single motherhood, and after a couple of years in
school, my children came back home to me and we all love it. I work
part-time, have lots of energy for the kids, have a wonderful partner,
and the kids' father and I are very respectful and co-operative when
it comes to the kids. We compliment each other in front of the kids,
support each others' decisions when it comes to child-rearing, and I
see the kids blossom when they know that their parents still love each
other.
This does not negate the pressure the kids feel having to live in 2
homes; with 2 sets of rules; 2 step-parents whom they will never
accept as their own (nor should they); constantly feeling a need to be
all-inclusive, feeling guilty if they enjoy their step-parents'
company when the natural same-sex parent is not around. It is a lot
of stress for the kids.
For me, what I have taken from this, is that is does take 2 to make a
relationship work. That if only one is busting their butt to heal
what they can't even know is wrong within a relationship, although it
is heroic (many have complimented me on my perserverance in my
marriage) and admirable, and many Christians remained my friend
because I wasn't the one who "left", I often wonder why I didn't leave
earlier. The writing was on the wall, and I'm not sure how much my
kids benefitted from an extra year of their father being miserable at
home, the unsaid tension as we all wondered what was wrong, my misery
at not being able to reach him and figure out a way through and back
to each other. This will always remain a question, however, as I did
not leave and I am also grateful that the kids had an extra year under
their belt before they had to endure the stresses of separation.
During this time, a therapist once said to me: "Just because 2 people
are married and stay together, doesn't mean that they are happy"
No easy answers.
Michele
>We need spirit more than we need matter; we need meaning more than we
>
need money. -Menachem Mendel Schneerson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cally
=The ill effects of divorce can undo much of the potential benefit of
unschooling, though unschooling can also be a healing tool in some
circumstances.=
While going through a lengthy divorce (and schooI issues) I quit my job and
pulled my kids out of school to do what I had always wanted to do - unschool
them! They also had been through enough and my purpose was two fold. They
needed to be home, healing. Unschooling - even after a nasty legal battle to
continue it - is in itself healing. It is a long process undoing a way of life
that was ingrained to be "the right way". I have found in this culture it takes
strength and courage to follow my instincts to let my children discover life in
a gentle way, to give them the space and time to sit back and discover
themselves. For me it is a constant joy watching them emerge from the cocoon
they had been locked in and become the amazing people they are.
Carole in CT
When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a
red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.
Albert Einstein
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling, though unschooling can also be a healing tool in some
circumstances.=
While going through a lengthy divorce (and schooI issues) I quit my job and
pulled my kids out of school to do what I had always wanted to do - unschool
them! They also had been through enough and my purpose was two fold. They
needed to be home, healing. Unschooling - even after a nasty legal battle to
continue it - is in itself healing. It is a long process undoing a way of life
that was ingrained to be "the right way". I have found in this culture it takes
strength and courage to follow my instincts to let my children discover life in
a gentle way, to give them the space and time to sit back and discover
themselves. For me it is a constant joy watching them emerge from the cocoon
they had been locked in and become the amazing people they are.
Carole in CT
When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a
red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.
Albert Einstein
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-my
biggest fear was exactly what you write (that divorce is an
unchangeable decline on all fronts, for both the parents and the
children).-=-
Are you suggesting that the idea of decline is false? Rare?
For unschooling or a stay-at-home parent to continue through and after
a divorce isn't likely, is it? It's rare, as far as I have seen.
In divorced in which kids are in school and stay in the same school,
"unchangeable decline" is common.
I don't think you mean to suggest that I was making those things up to
manipulate people into working to have healthy marriages.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
biggest fear was exactly what you write (that divorce is an
unchangeable decline on all fronts, for both the parents and the
children).-=-
Are you suggesting that the idea of decline is false? Rare?
For unschooling or a stay-at-home parent to continue through and after
a divorce isn't likely, is it? It's rare, as far as I have seen.
In divorced in which kids are in school and stay in the same school,
"unchangeable decline" is common.
I don't think you mean to suggest that I was making those things up to
manipulate people into working to have healthy marriages.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michele Sears
I'm suggesting that the idea of change and improvement of one's life,
through divorce, is also within the realm of possibility. And, that
if one is headed down the road of divorce, it's very easy to hear
about how bad this is and to worry and to want it to be different -
but the "how" of making a divorce as good as possible for kids is hard
to find.
However, saying that divorce will cause overall decline or improvement
seems to simplify a complex web of change that occurs when one
divorces. Some fronts are initially more difficult (finances,
possessions, change), some fronts are easier (possible decrease in
marital tension, staking out of one's space, time to reflect). And
these changes are so unique to each circumstance and person that it is
difficult to broadstroke it with better or worse.
Certainly statistics can make divorce look dire and overall "bad".
But many divorce statistics do not reflect life quality. There is an
assumption between variables that are made. (is - income=happiness)
My income went down. I live below the poverty line (as far as my
income taxes are concerned). However - we have all we need -
vacations, lessons, clothing, etc. I am creative with money. There
is no sense of lack. Their father's income went up. His household
has all they need and more!! And I still hear about his angry fits
and see him stressed out and watch his weight fluctuate with his
stress. On paper this income change for me looks "bad" - but it's
not. Not even a little bit bad. And I'm not sure that we can
definitively say that his income going up is "good".
Also, statistics on how children fare after a divorce look bad too.
But, in my experience, it's not just the divorce that affects them -
it's how the adults around them handle the divorce and each other. I'm
not sure if the research distinguishes between "loving divorces" and
"nasty divorces", or even whether it should. I believe that if
children are allowed to feel however they feel, are supported through
this with contact and support from their parents, then what is
happening around them is less of a defining factor in their life. My
children have access to either parent whenever they choose - as much
as is reasonable for their age. They speak with the non-access parent
daily; often a couple times a day. They can call either of us
whenever; e-mail is used, and in many ways it's no different than
staying in contact with a parent (or a partner) who travels a lot for
work. It's the staying connected part that I feel is really important
for the kids through the divorce. Not getting lost in the adult's
business.
If divorce is inevitable, then keep showing the kids you love their
other parent (through words and kind deeds) even if you can't really
feel it in the moment, accept and support the kids' feelings, be
accessible to the kids as much as possible, especially when they're
visiting the other parent, and work to constantly find compromises
with that parent so the children's needs come first. Eg - rearranging
schedules to accomodate playdates and sporting events of the kids
etc., especially as they get older.
Michele
through divorce, is also within the realm of possibility. And, that
if one is headed down the road of divorce, it's very easy to hear
about how bad this is and to worry and to want it to be different -
but the "how" of making a divorce as good as possible for kids is hard
to find.
However, saying that divorce will cause overall decline or improvement
seems to simplify a complex web of change that occurs when one
divorces. Some fronts are initially more difficult (finances,
possessions, change), some fronts are easier (possible decrease in
marital tension, staking out of one's space, time to reflect). And
these changes are so unique to each circumstance and person that it is
difficult to broadstroke it with better or worse.
Certainly statistics can make divorce look dire and overall "bad".
But many divorce statistics do not reflect life quality. There is an
assumption between variables that are made. (is - income=happiness)
My income went down. I live below the poverty line (as far as my
income taxes are concerned). However - we have all we need -
vacations, lessons, clothing, etc. I am creative with money. There
is no sense of lack. Their father's income went up. His household
has all they need and more!! And I still hear about his angry fits
and see him stressed out and watch his weight fluctuate with his
stress. On paper this income change for me looks "bad" - but it's
not. Not even a little bit bad. And I'm not sure that we can
definitively say that his income going up is "good".
Also, statistics on how children fare after a divorce look bad too.
But, in my experience, it's not just the divorce that affects them -
it's how the adults around them handle the divorce and each other. I'm
not sure if the research distinguishes between "loving divorces" and
"nasty divorces", or even whether it should. I believe that if
children are allowed to feel however they feel, are supported through
this with contact and support from their parents, then what is
happening around them is less of a defining factor in their life. My
children have access to either parent whenever they choose - as much
as is reasonable for their age. They speak with the non-access parent
daily; often a couple times a day. They can call either of us
whenever; e-mail is used, and in many ways it's no different than
staying in contact with a parent (or a partner) who travels a lot for
work. It's the staying connected part that I feel is really important
for the kids through the divorce. Not getting lost in the adult's
business.
If divorce is inevitable, then keep showing the kids you love their
other parent (through words and kind deeds) even if you can't really
feel it in the moment, accept and support the kids' feelings, be
accessible to the kids as much as possible, especially when they're
visiting the other parent, and work to constantly find compromises
with that parent so the children's needs come first. Eg - rearranging
schedules to accomodate playdates and sporting events of the kids
etc., especially as they get older.
Michele
On 14-Aug-10, at 11:59 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-my
> biggest fear was exactly what you write (that divorce is an
> unchangeable decline on all fronts, for both the parents and the
> children).-=-
>
> Are you suggesting that the idea of decline is false? Rare?
>
> For unschooling or a stay-at-home parent to continue through and after
> a divorce isn't likely, is it? It's rare, as far as I have seen.
>
> In divorced in which kids are in school and stay in the same school,
> "unchangeable decline" is common.
>
> I don't think you mean to suggest that I was making those things up to
> manipulate people into working to have healthy marriages.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
We need spirit more than we need matter; we need meaning more than we
need money. -Menachem Mendel Schneerson
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Michele Sears wrote:
it was raising a kid in the ghetto but that yours turned out okay.
Occasionally kids do but believing they'll turn out okay because
others have isn't the key. It isn't even a secondary factor.
You haven't passed on what you alone did that controlled how the
divorce played out. You haven't given anyone solid information they
can use regardless of their situation. If a good divorce depends on a
husband's decision to focus on peace and the needs of the kids, that's
not in a divorcing wife's control.
I suspect the smoothly working parts of your divorce have to do with
your husband feeling guilty for causing the breakup and his
willingness to not hurt the family further if he can avoid it. A
divorcing wife can't control that.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> the kids' father and I are very respectful and co-operative whenYou've only said it's possible. It's like saying you'd heard how bad
> it comes to the kids. We compliment each other in front of the kids,
> support each others' decisions when it comes to child-rearing
it was raising a kid in the ghetto but that yours turned out okay.
Occasionally kids do but believing they'll turn out okay because
others have isn't the key. It isn't even a secondary factor.
You haven't passed on what you alone did that controlled how the
divorce played out. You haven't given anyone solid information they
can use regardless of their situation. If a good divorce depends on a
husband's decision to focus on peace and the needs of the kids, that's
not in a divorcing wife's control.
I suspect the smoothly working parts of your divorce have to do with
your husband feeling guilty for causing the breakup and his
willingness to not hurt the family further if he can avoid it. A
divorcing wife can't control that.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 14, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Michele Sears wrote:
is that in her or his control? And if each partner remarries, there
are even more factors beyond one person's control.
Communication, partnership, putting the kids needs ahead of adult
needs, affirmations of love ... Those are all skills that help a
marriage with kids thrive. People who have those skills are less
likely to divorce. Those that do divorce and who are able to minimize
the stress of divorce using all those skills don't automatically
transfer those abilities to others who want to have them too.
It's much much easier to work on the skills and attitudes that makes a
relationship work before divorce than after. Afterwards the other
partner is far more likely to not want to put the effort into a
relationship he or she feels isn't worth the time. It's far more
likely they'll compartmentalize their relationship with the kids to
the time they're in direct contact. Sometimes the other partner
doesn't even want that for whatever reason.
It's not that it's not possible that two divorced partners might find
those skills after. It's that it takes more than someone saying it's
possible it can work and why the ""how" of making a divorce as good as
possible for kids is hard to find."
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ifAnd how can one parent ensure the other partner does any of that? How
> children are allowed to feel however they feel, are supported through
> this with contact and support from their parents, then what is
> happening around them is less of a defining factor in their life. My
> children have access to either parent whenever they choose - as much
> as is reasonable for their age. They speak with the non-access parent
> daily; often a couple times a day. They can call either of us
> whenever; e-mail is used, and in many ways it's no different than
> staying in contact with a parent (or a partner) who travels a lot for
> work. It's the staying connected part that I feel is really important
> for the kids through the divorce. Not getting lost in the adult's
> business.
is that in her or his control? And if each partner remarries, there
are even more factors beyond one person's control.
Communication, partnership, putting the kids needs ahead of adult
needs, affirmations of love ... Those are all skills that help a
marriage with kids thrive. People who have those skills are less
likely to divorce. Those that do divorce and who are able to minimize
the stress of divorce using all those skills don't automatically
transfer those abilities to others who want to have them too.
It's much much easier to work on the skills and attitudes that makes a
relationship work before divorce than after. Afterwards the other
partner is far more likely to not want to put the effort into a
relationship he or she feels isn't worth the time. It's far more
likely they'll compartmentalize their relationship with the kids to
the time they're in direct contact. Sometimes the other partner
doesn't even want that for whatever reason.
It's not that it's not possible that two divorced partners might find
those skills after. It's that it takes more than someone saying it's
possible it can work and why the ""how" of making a divorce as good as
possible for kids is hard to find."
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michele Sears
> And how can one parent ensure the other partner does any of that? HowI don't have any control over my ex-husband's behavior. (Nor do I
> is that in her or his control? And if each partner remarries, there
> are even more factors beyond one person's control.
have any control over my current partner's behavior.) We can
communicate and negotiate, but there isn't any control. I only know
that what I've done for my kids during the separation process
(mentioned previously) has helped. And I didn't say that their Dad
does that for them. Whether or not anyone else in my children's life
is doing it for them seems irrelevant.
> It's much much easier to work on the skills and attitudes that makes aFor me, their is very little "relationship" left between my ex and I -
> relationship work before divorce than after. Afterwards the other
> partner is far more likely to not want to put the effort into a
> relationship he or she feels isn't worth the time. It's far more
> likely they'll compartmentalize their relationship with the kids to
> the time they're in direct contact. Sometimes the other partner
> doesn't even want that for whatever reason.
in a relationship sense, other than parenting the children. He has
made many angry choices towards me since the divorce (perhaps out of
his own guilt as you mention) - however, I have a choice in response
to his behavior. And, for the children, I choose to find as much love
as possible towards him (sometimes it's none and we have a fight).
Often, that means not responding in anger. Letting time pass.
Bringing the focus of our conversations back around to the children.
If he chooses to do this or not - not up to me.
However, the "nasty" divorces seem to happen when the parents cannot
put the children first. I have several friends in this situation.
I also see, that for many of them, as much as they blame their "ex",
and no matter how "bad" the ex it, they also contribute to the
continual anger between them with their own choices.
> t's that it takes more than someone saying it'sBefore I went through my divorce, I would have agreed with you. And
> possible it can work and why the ""how" of making a divorce as good as
> possible for kids is hard to find."
now, I don't. Everyone has choice - even in divorce. No matter what
your ex does - you can choose to put your kids first (which includes
honoring their relationship with their father - abusiveness aside),
choose love and understanding and compassion (eg. no bad mouthing the
ex, no matter how tempting), drop your expectations, and this will
make it easier for you and easier for the kids. (and incidentally,
easier for the ex, which is your goal if you're aiming for love)
Sandra Dodd
-=-. My
children have access to either parent whenever they choose - as much
as is reasonable for their age. -=-
Ideally for unschooling (which is more to the point for this list)...
Having access to both parents at the same time can be nice, for
unschooling.
-=-But, in my experience, it's not just the divorce that affects them -
it's how the adults around them handle the divorce and each other. I'm
not sure if the research distinguishes between "loving divorces" and
"nasty divorces", or even whether it should.-=-
If there can be "a loving divorce," perhaps there could have been a
reconciliation.
What a parent might consider "a loving divorce" might be one of the
many things that kids smile through because they have a fragile
mother, and assure her that it will be okay. Too often I've seen
children of divorces fail to express their true feelings for fear of
some more of their family being lopped off or made more sorrowful.
-=-If divorce is inevitable, then keep showing the kids you love their
other parent (through words and kind deeds) even if you can't really
feel it in the moment, -=-
If you don't feel it and the kids know, but you say "this is love,"
that's not modelling clarity and honesty for the children.
I'm not saying that raw emotion would be appropriate either, but
honesty and clarity make or break trust.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
children have access to either parent whenever they choose - as much
as is reasonable for their age. -=-
Ideally for unschooling (which is more to the point for this list)...
Having access to both parents at the same time can be nice, for
unschooling.
-=-But, in my experience, it's not just the divorce that affects them -
it's how the adults around them handle the divorce and each other. I'm
not sure if the research distinguishes between "loving divorces" and
"nasty divorces", or even whether it should.-=-
If there can be "a loving divorce," perhaps there could have been a
reconciliation.
What a parent might consider "a loving divorce" might be one of the
many things that kids smile through because they have a fragile
mother, and assure her that it will be okay. Too often I've seen
children of divorces fail to express their true feelings for fear of
some more of their family being lopped off or made more sorrowful.
-=-If divorce is inevitable, then keep showing the kids you love their
other parent (through words and kind deeds) even if you can't really
feel it in the moment, -=-
If you don't feel it and the kids know, but you say "this is love,"
that's not modelling clarity and honesty for the children.
I'm not saying that raw emotion would be appropriate either, but
honesty and clarity make or break trust.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Selena Jones
So much food for thought. First of all, thank you for the variety of
perspectives. It helps to see things from all sides.
In our circumstance, having Dad around was nothing something they were used
to (he worked between 60-120 hours a week) so having him gone isn't as much
of an adjustment as it would be for other children who are used to having a
father who is more involved.
My children have very different relationships with their Dad. My son (11)
has exceptional needs and his Dad has openly said he doesn't like that he's
autistic and would gladly hand over the parenting reigns to me. My daughter
is "neurotypical" as they say and he finds her a joy to parent because he
says it's easier. That is his choice.
I believe there will be more freedom for me to in our days because without
my husband in the house, there's peace. My kids feel more free to explore
the things that interest him because he is there not there to criticize.
I agree wholeheartedly with Sandra that honesty is key. Without a foundation
of trust, anything you try to build on that will falter in some way. So I am
honest with my kids. They know that Mum and Dad are better as friends living
in two different houses than we are as husband and wife sharing the same
home. They know that I don't always agree with everything Dad does and that
is okay, as he doesn't always agree with everything I do. Again, that is
okay. However, what is *not* okay is to disrespect people, belittle them,
mock them or try to control them. I also nurture the relationship they have
as siblings, something my husband disagrees with (saying my daughter will be
harmed by having an autistic brother).
I am extremely thankful that when the house is quiet and my kids are
immersed in whatever is currently sparking their interest, they start to
talk. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. But I've made it very clear that
they're entitled to feel whatever they feel and no topic is off limits. I
would rather they come to me with their thoughts than to keep it inside and
it builds up to a point where it's beyond what they can cope with. That has
worked extremely well for us.
I think mediation is key to keeping the anger at a minimum, and the
communication open. We mediated custody and it was by far the best decision
we made. It enabled me to have a voice, and a third party to keep things
calm.
One of the best things for myself and for my kids will be to have some
control over finances again. I was never allowed access to the bank account
and had to ask permission for everything. Now, when I want to go and buy
finger paints, a huge roll of paper, and let them go crazy with their art
skills in the backyard? I can. And I can't tell you how thrilled I will be
when that happens.
We're healing right now. We're learning a lot of from each other and we're
establishing new family "rules" for lack of a better word, about how to
treat one another. My husband hasn't moved out yet, but should be in the
fall. My kids are happier when it's just the three of us, more settled, more
comfortable in their own skin. That's healthy and vital.
It is my job to nurture their relationship with their Dad no matter how
fractured and when they're of an age to decide for themselves whether or not
its a relationship they will continue or not, I will be there to love them
through whatever decision they make.
Between now and then we're all finding our way.
Selena
perspectives. It helps to see things from all sides.
In our circumstance, having Dad around was nothing something they were used
to (he worked between 60-120 hours a week) so having him gone isn't as much
of an adjustment as it would be for other children who are used to having a
father who is more involved.
My children have very different relationships with their Dad. My son (11)
has exceptional needs and his Dad has openly said he doesn't like that he's
autistic and would gladly hand over the parenting reigns to me. My daughter
is "neurotypical" as they say and he finds her a joy to parent because he
says it's easier. That is his choice.
I believe there will be more freedom for me to in our days because without
my husband in the house, there's peace. My kids feel more free to explore
the things that interest him because he is there not there to criticize.
I agree wholeheartedly with Sandra that honesty is key. Without a foundation
of trust, anything you try to build on that will falter in some way. So I am
honest with my kids. They know that Mum and Dad are better as friends living
in two different houses than we are as husband and wife sharing the same
home. They know that I don't always agree with everything Dad does and that
is okay, as he doesn't always agree with everything I do. Again, that is
okay. However, what is *not* okay is to disrespect people, belittle them,
mock them or try to control them. I also nurture the relationship they have
as siblings, something my husband disagrees with (saying my daughter will be
harmed by having an autistic brother).
I am extremely thankful that when the house is quiet and my kids are
immersed in whatever is currently sparking their interest, they start to
talk. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. But I've made it very clear that
they're entitled to feel whatever they feel and no topic is off limits. I
would rather they come to me with their thoughts than to keep it inside and
it builds up to a point where it's beyond what they can cope with. That has
worked extremely well for us.
I think mediation is key to keeping the anger at a minimum, and the
communication open. We mediated custody and it was by far the best decision
we made. It enabled me to have a voice, and a third party to keep things
calm.
One of the best things for myself and for my kids will be to have some
control over finances again. I was never allowed access to the bank account
and had to ask permission for everything. Now, when I want to go and buy
finger paints, a huge roll of paper, and let them go crazy with their art
skills in the backyard? I can. And I can't tell you how thrilled I will be
when that happens.
We're healing right now. We're learning a lot of from each other and we're
establishing new family "rules" for lack of a better word, about how to
treat one another. My husband hasn't moved out yet, but should be in the
fall. My kids are happier when it's just the three of us, more settled, more
comfortable in their own skin. That's healthy and vital.
It is my job to nurture their relationship with their Dad no matter how
fractured and when they're of an age to decide for themselves whether or not
its a relationship they will continue or not, I will be there to love them
through whatever decision they make.
Between now and then we're all finding our way.
Selena
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Michele Sears <michelesears@...>wrote:
>
>
> > And how can one parent ensure the other partner does any of that? How
> > is that in her or his control? And if each partner remarries, there
> > are even more factors beyond one person's control.
>
> I don't have any control over my ex-husband's behavior. (Nor do I
> have any control over my current partner's behavior.) We can
> communicate and negotiate, but there isn't any control. I only know
> that what I've done for my kids during the separation process
> (mentioned previously) has helped. And I didn't say that their Dad
> does that for them. Whether or not anyone else in my children's life
> is doing it for them seems irrelevant.
>
>
> > It's much much easier to work on the skills and attitudes that makes a
> > relationship work before divorce than after. Afterwards the other
> > partner is far more likely to not want to put the effort into a
> > relationship he or she feels isn't worth the time. It's far more
> > likely they'll compartmentalize their relationship with the kids to
> > the time they're in direct contact. Sometimes the other partner
> > doesn't even want that for whatever reason.
>
> For me, their is very little "relationship" left between my ex and I -
> in a relationship sense, other than parenting the children. He has
> made many angry choices towards me since the divorce (perhaps out of
> his own guilt as you mention) - however, I have a choice in response
> to his behavior. And, for the children, I choose to find as much love
> as possible towards him (sometimes it's none and we have a fight).
> Often, that means not responding in anger. Letting time pass.
> Bringing the focus of our conversations back around to the children.
> If he chooses to do this or not - not up to me.
>
> However, the "nasty" divorces seem to happen when the parents cannot
> put the children first. I have several friends in this situation.
> I also see, that for many of them, as much as they blame their "ex",
> and no matter how "bad" the ex it, they also contribute to the
> continual anger between them with their own choices.
>
>
> > t's that it takes more than someone saying it's
> > possible it can work and why the ""how" of making a divorce as good as
> > possible for kids is hard to find."
>
> Before I went through my divorce, I would have agreed with you. And
> now, I don't. Everyone has choice - even in divorce. No matter what
> your ex does - you can choose to put your kids first (which includes
> honoring their relationship with their father - abusiveness aside),
> choose love and understanding and compassion (eg. no bad mouthing the
> ex, no matter how tempting), drop your expectations, and this will
> make it easier for you and easier for the kids. (and incidentally,
> easier for the ex, which is your goal if you're aiming for love)
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michele Sears
>How is this possible? During our marriage, he was at work during the
> Ideally for unschooling (which is more to the point for this list)...
> Having access to both parents at the same time can be nice, for
> unschooling.
day!! They have the same access to both of us now as they would if he
were travelling for work, which he also often did before. Yes - of
course he does not come home to me at night, and I understand your
point. Marriage (of 2 committed partners) is better than divorce.
Point well taken. But, for those reading that would feel discouraged
and badly about divorce, I still respectfully disagree that divorce is
a situation of decline.
>When one partner has left the relationship, how can there be a
>
> If there can be "a loving divorce," perhaps there could have been a
> reconciliation.
reconciliation? I used to feel as you do. I did. And then I found
that one person alone cannot heal a broken marriage if the other
person has left. However, if there are 2 committed partners, I truly
believe that a marriage can survive anything.
> What a parent might consider "a loving divorce" might be one of theTrue enough. However, many children express much sorrow and loss,
> many things that kids smile through because they have a fragile
> mother, and assure her that it will be okay. Too often I've seen
> children of divorces fail to express their true feelings for fear of
> some more of their family being lopped off or made more sorrowful.
grief and anger, in many ways and at different stages, about many of
life's uncertainties and unfairnesses. Death. Divorce. The loss of a
pet. Having to share. Etc. Etc. And I still believe that it's the
ability of these children to express their emotions in a safe
environment, NOT to hide them, that helps them through.
>And I don't agree with you on this point - would it be healthier for
>
> If you don't feel it and the kids know, but you say "this is love,"
> that's not modelling clarity and honesty for the children.
> I'm not saying that raw emotion would be appropriate either, but
> honesty and clarity make or break trust.
me to say "Your father is an ass because he slept with another woman,
exposed me to STD's, lied to all of us continually, and chose to run
away instead of working things out to be with all of us?" I can't
know that he's an ass for all of that - but I can feel that he is.
It's not my job to lay my opinions of their father (based primarily on
my emotion) on them - they have their own relationship with him. So
although I may FEEL angry and unloving, it is right for my children
that I honor what I KNOW to be true - he is their father, they adore
him, and that alone deserves him respect because doing otherwise hurts
the children.
My best friend, incidentally, has cheated on her husband for over a
year and has now left him. I love her dearly - and although I don't
agree with what she's done, she's not an ass. She did the best she
could in her situation, and deserves to be supported in her motherhood
with her children. By the father and her family. That is best for
the children. His opinions of her do not belong in their children's
minds or hearts.
Michele
Sandra Dodd
-=-However, many children express much sorrow and loss,
grief and anger, in many ways and at different stages, about many of
life's uncertainties and unfairnesses. Death. Divorce. The loss of a
pet. Having to share. Etc. Etc.-=-
Yes. If a parent isn't compassionate and helpful about the problems
of sharing (I'm not agreeing with "having to share," because I object
to "have to" as a principle), though, then the parent adds to the
problem.
If the parent causes the loss of a pet, then the parent has caused the
problem--not the pet.
If the parent causes a death on purpose (not likely), or through
negligence (more likely), the the parent didn't do the best he could do.
When there is a divorce, very often by walking back through the steps
there are things the parents could have done differently earlier. To
treat it as an inevitable, accidental "oops" that kids will just "have
to" deal with and get over can be very cold, in some cases. Not in
all. Not all are equally avoidable.
IF on this list we say "Oh, sure, it happens; Sure you did the best
you could; Yes, kids are resilient..." and IF because of that one
single reader here becomes more cavalier about his or her own
relationship, that list has done damage to children.
If someone is on the fence and soothing positive talk about "loving
divorce" comes through and she divorces because of that, and children
are harmed, I would rather not maintain the list anymore.
When someone is divorced and it can't be undone, IF she can still
unschool, then that is better for her children than not.
When someone divorces and seems surprised that the judge and her ex
husband have a say in what happens with her children... then what?
I've been helping other people sort through their unschooling thoughts
and feelings, successes and regrets, for nearly 19 years now, and
there HAVE been people who divorced easily and regretted it horribly,
who have said they wished they could go back and prevent that divorce,
to have a "re-do," to undo the damage.
It's not popular to talk about that. It is the fashion for women to
soothe other women's feelings, and to assure them their children will
be fine. No doubt anyone who wants that will find it in abundance.
-=-My best friend, incidentally, has cheated on her husband for over a
year and has now left him. I love her dearly - and although I don't
agree with what she's done, she's not an ass. She did the best she
could in her situation, and deserves to be supported in her motherhood
with her children. By the father and her family. That is best for
the children. His opinions of her do not belong in their children's
minds or hearts.-=-
She "deserves" to be supported by the man she cheated on?
He doesn't "deserve" be be able to let people know why they're
separated?
She did the best she could?
If "whatever" is the best a parent can do, then why discuss better and
worse?
If there is no direction that is better for children than others, and
all things are equal, what's wrong with school?
Schools are doing the best they can in their situations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
grief and anger, in many ways and at different stages, about many of
life's uncertainties and unfairnesses. Death. Divorce. The loss of a
pet. Having to share. Etc. Etc.-=-
Yes. If a parent isn't compassionate and helpful about the problems
of sharing (I'm not agreeing with "having to share," because I object
to "have to" as a principle), though, then the parent adds to the
problem.
If the parent causes the loss of a pet, then the parent has caused the
problem--not the pet.
If the parent causes a death on purpose (not likely), or through
negligence (more likely), the the parent didn't do the best he could do.
When there is a divorce, very often by walking back through the steps
there are things the parents could have done differently earlier. To
treat it as an inevitable, accidental "oops" that kids will just "have
to" deal with and get over can be very cold, in some cases. Not in
all. Not all are equally avoidable.
IF on this list we say "Oh, sure, it happens; Sure you did the best
you could; Yes, kids are resilient..." and IF because of that one
single reader here becomes more cavalier about his or her own
relationship, that list has done damage to children.
If someone is on the fence and soothing positive talk about "loving
divorce" comes through and she divorces because of that, and children
are harmed, I would rather not maintain the list anymore.
When someone is divorced and it can't be undone, IF she can still
unschool, then that is better for her children than not.
When someone divorces and seems surprised that the judge and her ex
husband have a say in what happens with her children... then what?
I've been helping other people sort through their unschooling thoughts
and feelings, successes and regrets, for nearly 19 years now, and
there HAVE been people who divorced easily and regretted it horribly,
who have said they wished they could go back and prevent that divorce,
to have a "re-do," to undo the damage.
It's not popular to talk about that. It is the fashion for women to
soothe other women's feelings, and to assure them their children will
be fine. No doubt anyone who wants that will find it in abundance.
-=-My best friend, incidentally, has cheated on her husband for over a
year and has now left him. I love her dearly - and although I don't
agree with what she's done, she's not an ass. She did the best she
could in her situation, and deserves to be supported in her motherhood
with her children. By the father and her family. That is best for
the children. His opinions of her do not belong in their children's
minds or hearts.-=-
She "deserves" to be supported by the man she cheated on?
He doesn't "deserve" be be able to let people know why they're
separated?
She did the best she could?
If "whatever" is the best a parent can do, then why discuss better and
worse?
If there is no direction that is better for children than others, and
all things are equal, what's wrong with school?
Schools are doing the best they can in their situations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Much of what you are writing about is about you. A reasonable perspective when
talking about a divorce, which is the breakdown of the relationship between two
people, but it helps when discussing parenting to realise that what is true for
you isn't true for your children. So talking about divorce not being a situation
of decline may be true in your experience, but may absolutely not be the same
for your children.
life's uncertainties and unfairnesses. Death. Divorce. The loss of a
pet. Having to share. Etc. Etc. And I still believe that it's the
ability of these children to express their emotions in a safe
environment, NOT to hide them, that helps them through.<<
On a sliding scale death, divorce and then having to share? Death is pretty
awful, divorce, yep bad too, sharing stuff, well, being forced to share is
pretty crap, but it isn't really comparable to death and divorce. And the death
of a pet, well Simon and Linnaea and I have watched one pet fish eat another pet
fish's babies, that was kind of fun, in a nature red in tooth and claw sort of
moment. On the other hand we've cuddled around a cat as she died and I have
cried for days over a dog, but there is a difference between that death and the
lasting legacy that divorce can leave. All of those moments may go to
irrevocably change your children, but some will have more of an effect than
others. And I believe that on your sliding scale divorce is on the high end.
It is a very luxurious experience to have to believe that divorce can have a
nominal effect on the lives of your children. Among the Ache of Paraguay the
absence of a father leads to the increased risk of death of his children. Among
the Mayans of Belize the one divorce I heard about lead to the adoption by
others of all the children because the parents could no longer support a child
being at home. And while that might be something one could dismiss as a cultural
difference, given that all humans I know of are derived from hunter-gatherer
populations usually having moved through subsistence farming, biologically
children should get stressed by the termination of their parent's marriage. The
risks to their own well being, their own lives may be at stake.
a situation of decline.<<
I hope that everyone reading on this list feels discouraged and badly about
divorce and looks to ways to make their marriages better and stronger. I hope
that everyone who is reading here thinks that maybe they'll reach out with a bit
more affection or with a gentle gift of something special for their partner
today because they feel discouraged at the idea of their marriage spiralling
down to a divorce and they want to do all that they can to buoy it up. Divorce
is a state of declination from marriage. Divorce is not such a good state for
children. I have a book that I've read some of about called The Legacy of
Divorce. It's a qualitative, long term study of the effects of divorce on
children. Turns out, mostly, that it isn't all that great. Turns out that
children are mostly unaware of the tension in the marriage before the divorce
but are desperately aware of it after. And that the effect doesn't necessarily
show up immediately.
In my own legacy of divorce story I can truly state that I was more upset about
the disappearance of my cat than I was about the news of my parents getting
divorced. They didn't divorce until I was 18 and living outside of their home. I
was done and dusted, moved out, all grown up, it shouldn't really play that big
a role anymore. But I can get sour about it, get tense when I call and my
step-dad answers or hate having to chat at my step-mom. I can get sad that
nobody talks about me as a baby, as a toddler, as a child anymore. My dad forgot
how old I am. Maybe he would have anyhow, maybe it was just a slip between
brain and tongue, but maybe it was because there is no turning towards their
children together, but a turning away from the evidence of their previous
relationships in a bid for loyalty to their newer relationships.
On a list that goes out to lots of folks it is important to be clear about your
message. On a list about unschooling the message starts with supporting your
children. Arguing that divorce is simply a state change and not a level change
may be appropriate on a lisst about supporting a mother or a father, but on a
list where the focus is on improving the lives of our children and our
relationships with them it just seems an odd decision.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Michele Sears <michelesears@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 15 August, 2010 3:17:34
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Divorce
day!! They have the same access to both of us now as they would if he
were travelling for work, which he also often did before. Yes - of
course he does not come home to me at night, and I understand your
point. Marriage (of 2 committed partners) is better than divorce.
Point well taken. But, for those reading that would feel discouraged
and badly about divorce, I still respectfully disagree that divorce is
a situation of decline.
reconciliation? I used to feel as you do. I did. And then I found
that one person alone cannot heal a broken marriage if the other
person has left. However, if there are 2 committed partners, I truly
believe that a marriage can survive anything.
grief and anger, in many ways and at different stages, about many of
life's uncertainties and unfairnesses. Death. Divorce. The loss of a
pet. Having to share. Etc. Etc. And I still believe that it's the
ability of these children to express their emotions in a safe
environment, NOT to hide them, that helps them through.
me to say "Your father is an ass because he slept with another woman,
exposed me to STD's, lied to all of us continually, and chose to run
away instead of working things out to be with all of us?" I can't
know that he's an ass for all of that - but I can feel that he is.
It's not my job to lay my opinions of their father (based primarily on
my emotion) on them - they have their own relationship with him. So
although I may FEEL angry and unloving, it is right for my children
that I honor what I KNOW to be true - he is their father, they adore
him, and that alone deserves him respect because doing otherwise hurts
the children.
My best friend, incidentally, has cheated on her husband for over a
year and has now left him. I love her dearly - and although I don't
agree with what she's done, she's not an ass. She did the best she
could in her situation, and deserves to be supported in her motherhood
with her children. By the father and her family. That is best for
the children. His opinions of her do not belong in their children's
minds or hearts.
Michele
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
talking about a divorce, which is the breakdown of the relationship between two
people, but it helps when discussing parenting to realise that what is true for
you isn't true for your children. So talking about divorce not being a situation
of decline may be true in your experience, but may absolutely not be the same
for your children.
>>True enough. However, many children express much sorrow and loss,grief and anger, in many ways and at different stages, about many of
life's uncertainties and unfairnesses. Death. Divorce. The loss of a
pet. Having to share. Etc. Etc. And I still believe that it's the
ability of these children to express their emotions in a safe
environment, NOT to hide them, that helps them through.<<
On a sliding scale death, divorce and then having to share? Death is pretty
awful, divorce, yep bad too, sharing stuff, well, being forced to share is
pretty crap, but it isn't really comparable to death and divorce. And the death
of a pet, well Simon and Linnaea and I have watched one pet fish eat another pet
fish's babies, that was kind of fun, in a nature red in tooth and claw sort of
moment. On the other hand we've cuddled around a cat as she died and I have
cried for days over a dog, but there is a difference between that death and the
lasting legacy that divorce can leave. All of those moments may go to
irrevocably change your children, but some will have more of an effect than
others. And I believe that on your sliding scale divorce is on the high end.
It is a very luxurious experience to have to believe that divorce can have a
nominal effect on the lives of your children. Among the Ache of Paraguay the
absence of a father leads to the increased risk of death of his children. Among
the Mayans of Belize the one divorce I heard about lead to the adoption by
others of all the children because the parents could no longer support a child
being at home. And while that might be something one could dismiss as a cultural
difference, given that all humans I know of are derived from hunter-gatherer
populations usually having moved through subsistence farming, biologically
children should get stressed by the termination of their parent's marriage. The
risks to their own well being, their own lives may be at stake.
>>Point well taken. But, for those reading that would feel discouragedand badly about divorce, I still respectfully disagree that divorce is
a situation of decline.<<
I hope that everyone reading on this list feels discouraged and badly about
divorce and looks to ways to make their marriages better and stronger. I hope
that everyone who is reading here thinks that maybe they'll reach out with a bit
more affection or with a gentle gift of something special for their partner
today because they feel discouraged at the idea of their marriage spiralling
down to a divorce and they want to do all that they can to buoy it up. Divorce
is a state of declination from marriage. Divorce is not such a good state for
children. I have a book that I've read some of about called The Legacy of
Divorce. It's a qualitative, long term study of the effects of divorce on
children. Turns out, mostly, that it isn't all that great. Turns out that
children are mostly unaware of the tension in the marriage before the divorce
but are desperately aware of it after. And that the effect doesn't necessarily
show up immediately.
In my own legacy of divorce story I can truly state that I was more upset about
the disappearance of my cat than I was about the news of my parents getting
divorced. They didn't divorce until I was 18 and living outside of their home. I
was done and dusted, moved out, all grown up, it shouldn't really play that big
a role anymore. But I can get sour about it, get tense when I call and my
step-dad answers or hate having to chat at my step-mom. I can get sad that
nobody talks about me as a baby, as a toddler, as a child anymore. My dad forgot
how old I am. Maybe he would have anyhow, maybe it was just a slip between
brain and tongue, but maybe it was because there is no turning towards their
children together, but a turning away from the evidence of their previous
relationships in a bid for loyalty to their newer relationships.
On a list that goes out to lots of folks it is important to be clear about your
message. On a list about unschooling the message starts with supporting your
children. Arguing that divorce is simply a state change and not a level change
may be appropriate on a lisst about supporting a mother or a father, but on a
list where the focus is on improving the lives of our children and our
relationships with them it just seems an odd decision.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Michele Sears <michelesears@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 15 August, 2010 3:17:34
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Divorce
>How is this possible? During our marriage, he was at work during the
> Ideally for unschooling (which is more to the point for this list)...
> Having access to both parents at the same time can be nice, for
> unschooling.
day!! They have the same access to both of us now as they would if he
were travelling for work, which he also often did before. Yes - of
course he does not come home to me at night, and I understand your
point. Marriage (of 2 committed partners) is better than divorce.
Point well taken. But, for those reading that would feel discouraged
and badly about divorce, I still respectfully disagree that divorce is
a situation of decline.
>When one partner has left the relationship, how can there be a
>
> If there can be "a loving divorce," perhaps there could have been a
> reconciliation.
reconciliation? I used to feel as you do. I did. And then I found
that one person alone cannot heal a broken marriage if the other
person has left. However, if there are 2 committed partners, I truly
believe that a marriage can survive anything.
> What a parent might consider "a loving divorce" might be one of theTrue enough. However, many children express much sorrow and loss,
> many things that kids smile through because they have a fragile
> mother, and assure her that it will be okay. Too often I've seen
> children of divorces fail to express their true feelings for fear of
> some more of their family being lopped off or made more sorrowful.
grief and anger, in many ways and at different stages, about many of
life's uncertainties and unfairnesses. Death. Divorce. The loss of a
pet. Having to share. Etc. Etc. And I still believe that it's the
ability of these children to express their emotions in a safe
environment, NOT to hide them, that helps them through.
>And I don't agree with you on this point - would it be healthier for
>
> If you don't feel it and the kids know, but you say "this is love,"
> that's not modelling clarity and honesty for the children.
> I'm not saying that raw emotion would be appropriate either, but
> honesty and clarity make or break trust.
me to say "Your father is an ass because he slept with another woman,
exposed me to STD's, lied to all of us continually, and chose to run
away instead of working things out to be with all of us?" I can't
know that he's an ass for all of that - but I can feel that he is.
It's not my job to lay my opinions of their father (based primarily on
my emotion) on them - they have their own relationship with him. So
although I may FEEL angry and unloving, it is right for my children
that I honor what I KNOW to be true - he is their father, they adore
him, and that alone deserves him respect because doing otherwise hurts
the children.
My best friend, incidentally, has cheated on her husband for over a
year and has now left him. I love her dearly - and although I don't
agree with what she's done, she's not an ass. She did the best she
could in her situation, and deserves to be supported in her motherhood
with her children. By the father and her family. That is best for
the children. His opinions of her do not belong in their children's
minds or hearts.
Michele
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michele Sears
>I agree wholeheartedly. This was never in question during this
>
> I hope that everyone reading on this list feels discouraged and
> badly about
> divorce and looks to ways to make their marriages better and
> stronger. I hope
> that everyone who is reading here thinks that maybe they'll reach
> out with a bit
> more affection or with a gentle gift of something special for their
> partner
> today because they feel discouraged at the idea of their marriage
> spiralling
> down to a divorce and they want to do all that they can to buoy it up.
discussion, nor during my own experience. But what do you do when one
partner is uncommitted? Change their mind? Let others who would
tell you that you are now entering a state of decline drag you down
even further? If we are supporting children, then by default we must
support their parents, no matter what situation life brings them.
All my points are about marriages that have broken down (which is what
the original post by Sandra on divorce was about)- not about walking
away from ones that are still intact.
Sandra Dodd
-=- But what do you do when one
partner is uncommitted? Change their mind? -=-
"When one partner is uncommitted" isn't a plain and natural state.
"Committed" isn't like an on/off switch.
Either partner can make the situation better, and from the early days
of marriage, each partner should be trying to make it better every
day, no matter how good it already is.
It's interesting that in arranged marriages, there's more happiness
and less divorce. When people choose their own partners as in the
U.S. and Canada, it seems a frightening shame that they so easily
change their minds. So "Change their mind?" is an interesting
question, because at one point the marriage was a choice the two
people made. Somewhere in there, negative, hurtful things were said
or done. Things started to decline. Lots of little actions,
inactions and choices were dragging it down.
-=-Let others who would
tell you that you are now entering a state of decline drag you down
even further?-=-
If someone from outside says "You are now entering a state of
decline," could that possibly be a surprise?
If others from outside have the ability and potential to drag you down
even further, why would they do that?
Why would someone who had voluntarily entered a marriage let them do
that?
I divorced many years ago, to be with Keith instead of my first
husband. There are lots of details, of course. It was a childless
marriage, and was not a marriage of love or romance. We got married
so his brother and sister wouldn't be taken away when their parents
died. He was 23, a little younger than Kirby is now. I was 21;
Marty's age. I had known the family for six years, knew both parents
and all six kids. Two were still little when the mom died, just two
years after the dad died. The aunt (mom's twin) didn't want them,
really; they REALLY didn't want to move five states away to be with
her. So I married him, because he was sad and afraid and I like him
and his family. It lasted three years, with a three year separation
before the divorce was final. It was the 1970's and things were
fast, loose and people were getting divorced like crazy. It was
EASY to find people to say "just leave," and almost impossible to find
any advice about staying and making things good.
I know it's possible for others to drag you down even further.
I'm unwilling to be one of those others, and have been unwilling for
the past 30 years to stand by silently while anyone else casually
drags anyone else down, even before I had children. Way before I was
unschooling. Before I was spending so much energy helping people
unschool.
Because my focus, when I write (and my posts are my own writing from
my own point of view) it's to help children have peaceful unschooling
lives--not just the children of the poster to whom I might be
responding, but the children of lurkers on the list, and the children
of those who just joined and will have a first impression of the
potential of unschooling from what they read the first day or two
they're on a list.
Some things are better for unschooling than others. Sorting through
what helps and what doesn't will assist families new to unschooling to
decide which principles to live by to have peaceful unschooling lives
for many years. There are risky behaviors parents can engage in that
endanger their children's peace and stability. Skydiving. Drug use.
Promiscuity. Not maintaining their marriages.
That list isn't as large a spread as "divorce, death, sharing."
This isn't about morality or marriage. It's about creating and
maintaining a nest for children to learn as fully and peacefully as
possible.
Not everyone can unschool. Not everyone can own a yacht. Unschooling
is BIG, like owning a yacht. If a couple doesn't agree on owning a
yacht, it's not happening. If a couple gets divorced, the yacht
probably ends up being sold. But it's possible (legal and often
advisable) for someone else to take care of the yacht part time or
full time (another great expense that would need to be agreed upon).
Unschooling can only be done within the family. If others do it, it's
tutoring, or school, not unschooling.
People come to this list to discuss unschooling, and that's why
divorces shouldn't be encouraged here, or treated as just another
option equal to any other factors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
partner is uncommitted? Change their mind? -=-
"When one partner is uncommitted" isn't a plain and natural state.
"Committed" isn't like an on/off switch.
Either partner can make the situation better, and from the early days
of marriage, each partner should be trying to make it better every
day, no matter how good it already is.
It's interesting that in arranged marriages, there's more happiness
and less divorce. When people choose their own partners as in the
U.S. and Canada, it seems a frightening shame that they so easily
change their minds. So "Change their mind?" is an interesting
question, because at one point the marriage was a choice the two
people made. Somewhere in there, negative, hurtful things were said
or done. Things started to decline. Lots of little actions,
inactions and choices were dragging it down.
-=-Let others who would
tell you that you are now entering a state of decline drag you down
even further?-=-
If someone from outside says "You are now entering a state of
decline," could that possibly be a surprise?
If others from outside have the ability and potential to drag you down
even further, why would they do that?
Why would someone who had voluntarily entered a marriage let them do
that?
I divorced many years ago, to be with Keith instead of my first
husband. There are lots of details, of course. It was a childless
marriage, and was not a marriage of love or romance. We got married
so his brother and sister wouldn't be taken away when their parents
died. He was 23, a little younger than Kirby is now. I was 21;
Marty's age. I had known the family for six years, knew both parents
and all six kids. Two were still little when the mom died, just two
years after the dad died. The aunt (mom's twin) didn't want them,
really; they REALLY didn't want to move five states away to be with
her. So I married him, because he was sad and afraid and I like him
and his family. It lasted three years, with a three year separation
before the divorce was final. It was the 1970's and things were
fast, loose and people were getting divorced like crazy. It was
EASY to find people to say "just leave," and almost impossible to find
any advice about staying and making things good.
I know it's possible for others to drag you down even further.
I'm unwilling to be one of those others, and have been unwilling for
the past 30 years to stand by silently while anyone else casually
drags anyone else down, even before I had children. Way before I was
unschooling. Before I was spending so much energy helping people
unschool.
Because my focus, when I write (and my posts are my own writing from
my own point of view) it's to help children have peaceful unschooling
lives--not just the children of the poster to whom I might be
responding, but the children of lurkers on the list, and the children
of those who just joined and will have a first impression of the
potential of unschooling from what they read the first day or two
they're on a list.
Some things are better for unschooling than others. Sorting through
what helps and what doesn't will assist families new to unschooling to
decide which principles to live by to have peaceful unschooling lives
for many years. There are risky behaviors parents can engage in that
endanger their children's peace and stability. Skydiving. Drug use.
Promiscuity. Not maintaining their marriages.
That list isn't as large a spread as "divorce, death, sharing."
This isn't about morality or marriage. It's about creating and
maintaining a nest for children to learn as fully and peacefully as
possible.
Not everyone can unschool. Not everyone can own a yacht. Unschooling
is BIG, like owning a yacht. If a couple doesn't agree on owning a
yacht, it's not happening. If a couple gets divorced, the yacht
probably ends up being sold. But it's possible (legal and often
advisable) for someone else to take care of the yacht part time or
full time (another great expense that would need to be agreed upon).
Unschooling can only be done within the family. If others do it, it's
tutoring, or school, not unschooling.
People come to this list to discuss unschooling, and that's why
divorces shouldn't be encouraged here, or treated as just another
option equal to any other factors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***However, the "nasty" divorces seem to happen when the parents cannot
put the children first.***
The very nature of divorce puts the adults first. Divorce has very little to do
with kids at all. Sure, parents going through a divorce can help the kids and
be there more than less, but the divorce itself is about adults and what adults
want and need, not about what kids want and need.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
put the children first.***
The very nature of divorce puts the adults first. Divorce has very little to do
with kids at all. Sure, parents going through a divorce can help the kids and
be there more than less, but the divorce itself is about adults and what adults
want and need, not about what kids want and need.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Selena Jones
On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
decided to mediate. The whole reason for that was because we wanted to make
sure the childrens needs were met. My husband doesn't want to parent a child
with autism full time. That is a decision he made and has been completely
unwilling to change. I spent years in counseling (he was unwilling to go)
before I came to the conclusion that staying in the marriage was doing more
damage to the kids than ending it. That advice came not only on from my
counselor put also the variety of medical teams treating my son.
Mediation has been a huge blessing. Everything we discuss is centered around
the kids and their needs. It has to be balanced so that the children can be
provided for in a way that meets their emotional, financial, and educational
needs in the best way possible given the situation that we're in. Is it
optimal? Given the situation that I/we are in? Yes I do believe it is. I
can't change another person. I can give him every opportunity to work with
me, together as a team, to work on the issues in our marriage. I can work on
myself, knowing I have my own flaws and try to better myself. But in the
end, if he is unwilling, and him staying is a danger to me and to our kids,
then you can bet I would high tail it out of there, taking every precaution
along the way to make sure my children are supported.
I took my marriage vows and my marriage very very seriously.When I married
him, it was to be for life. I'm saddened that it didn't turn out that way.
But I don't have any regret, because I know I did all I could to hold it
together.
Now it's about moving forward and continuing to do what I do best. Parent my
children, create a safe, loving and peaceful home, and watch them thrive and
learn at their own pace and in their own ways. I will always be grateful
that they invite me into their world as much as they do. I don't intrude, I
am invited and nothing makes me smile more than that.
Selena
> The very nature of divorce puts the adults first. Divorce has veryI disagree with that to a certain extent. Through our separation process, we
> little to do with kids at all. Sure, parents going through a divorce can
> help the kids and be there more than less, but the divorce itself is about
> adults and what adults want and need, not about what kids want and need.
>
decided to mediate. The whole reason for that was because we wanted to make
sure the childrens needs were met. My husband doesn't want to parent a child
with autism full time. That is a decision he made and has been completely
unwilling to change. I spent years in counseling (he was unwilling to go)
before I came to the conclusion that staying in the marriage was doing more
damage to the kids than ending it. That advice came not only on from my
counselor put also the variety of medical teams treating my son.
Mediation has been a huge blessing. Everything we discuss is centered around
the kids and their needs. It has to be balanced so that the children can be
provided for in a way that meets their emotional, financial, and educational
needs in the best way possible given the situation that we're in. Is it
optimal? Given the situation that I/we are in? Yes I do believe it is. I
can't change another person. I can give him every opportunity to work with
me, together as a team, to work on the issues in our marriage. I can work on
myself, knowing I have my own flaws and try to better myself. But in the
end, if he is unwilling, and him staying is a danger to me and to our kids,
then you can bet I would high tail it out of there, taking every precaution
along the way to make sure my children are supported.
I took my marriage vows and my marriage very very seriously.When I married
him, it was to be for life. I'm saddened that it didn't turn out that way.
But I don't have any regret, because I know I did all I could to hold it
together.
Now it's about moving forward and continuing to do what I do best. Parent my
children, create a safe, loving and peaceful home, and watch them thrive and
learn at their own pace and in their own ways. I will always be grateful
that they invite me into their world as much as they do. I don't intrude, I
am invited and nothing makes me smile more than that.
Selena
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Jenny Cyphers
***One of the best things for myself and for my kids will be to have some
control over finances again. I was never allowed access to the bank account
and had to ask permission for everything.***
This sounds like the key to the break down of the marriage... trust/control. If
two people fell in love at one point, had children, and can work with a mediator
to deal with custody, it seems that other issues could have been resolved too.
In my experience, a person who tries to control another, is a person who feels
out of control and needs to desperately find it. The more desperate that person
is, the more they will seek to control others.
I don't see how divorce can make that better. The person who felt the need for
control will only feel more out of control and possibly attempt to control more.
It isn't necessarily the act of control that is so horrible for people to deal
with, it is the attempt that people use to try to control that feels so
horrible. If the tiny shred of trust that existed within the marriage is gone,
the attempts to control will likely only get uglier. It may be that way for
years. There may be temporary peace for a while, but that issue isn't going to
go away. The object of control may change to the children, and to me, that
seems far worse.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
control over finances again. I was never allowed access to the bank account
and had to ask permission for everything.***
This sounds like the key to the break down of the marriage... trust/control. If
two people fell in love at one point, had children, and can work with a mediator
to deal with custody, it seems that other issues could have been resolved too.
In my experience, a person who tries to control another, is a person who feels
out of control and needs to desperately find it. The more desperate that person
is, the more they will seek to control others.
I don't see how divorce can make that better. The person who felt the need for
control will only feel more out of control and possibly attempt to control more.
It isn't necessarily the act of control that is so horrible for people to deal
with, it is the attempt that people use to try to control that feels so
horrible. If the tiny shred of trust that existed within the marriage is gone,
the attempts to control will likely only get uglier. It may be that way for
years. There may be temporary peace for a while, but that issue isn't going to
go away. The object of control may change to the children, and to me, that
seems far worse.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***And while that might be something one could dismiss as a cultural
difference, given that all humans I know of are derived from hunter-gatherer
populations usually having moved through subsistence farming, biologically
children should get stressed by the termination of their parent's marriage. The
risks to their own well being, their own lives may be at stake.***
When I have felt down about my own marriage, and I imagine what it would be like
to have a different partner, the first thing that comes to mind is my children.
NOBODY will protect my children better than their biological parent, their
father. It's a biological thing, passing on one's genetic code and making sure
it survives. A step parent, even a really great one, isn't going to have that
drive. (I've wondered if that is why, in other times and places, if a husband
died, the woman would marry the brother.) If I gave up my marriage, let it go,
stop working on making it better and making it survive, I'm also making a step
towards disabling, even a little bit, my children's ability to survive. I don't
want my children to merely survive though, I want them to thrive.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
difference, given that all humans I know of are derived from hunter-gatherer
populations usually having moved through subsistence farming, biologically
children should get stressed by the termination of their parent's marriage. The
risks to their own well being, their own lives may be at stake.***
When I have felt down about my own marriage, and I imagine what it would be like
to have a different partner, the first thing that comes to mind is my children.
NOBODY will protect my children better than their biological parent, their
father. It's a biological thing, passing on one's genetic code and making sure
it survives. A step parent, even a really great one, isn't going to have that
drive. (I've wondered if that is why, in other times and places, if a husband
died, the woman would marry the brother.) If I gave up my marriage, let it go,
stop working on making it better and making it survive, I'm also making a step
towards disabling, even a little bit, my children's ability to survive. I don't
want my children to merely survive though, I want them to thrive.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
process, we
decided to mediate. The whole reason for that was because we wanted to
make
sure the childrens needs were met.-=-
You disagreed before you read clearly what had been written.
It seems this whole discussion which SHOULD have been about music
lessons is hijacked toward attempting to get people to say "NO
PROBLEM, good idea about that divorce."
What Jenny wrote was "the very nature of divorce puts the adults
first." Speaking of divorce, that is true. Speaking in general of
the topic, Jenny can't be disagreed with to a certain extent. Not by
an example from one situation that's already past the divorce stage.
What happens in a separation process happens after the marriage
deterioriated.
What we want to help people see is that preventing marriages from
deteriorating earlier on can be crucial to the establishment and
continuation of unschooling.
I'm going to start a different thread, because I don't want to talk
about this one single divorce. I want to talk about trust and
planning for the future by living in the moment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The very nature of divorce puts the adults first. Divorce has verydivorce can
> little to do with kids at all. Sure, parents going through a
> help the kids and be there more than less, but the divorce itselfis about
> adults and what adults want and need, not about what kids want andneed.
>-=-I disagree with that to a certain extent. Through our separation
process, we
decided to mediate. The whole reason for that was because we wanted to
make
sure the childrens needs were met.-=-
You disagreed before you read clearly what had been written.
It seems this whole discussion which SHOULD have been about music
lessons is hijacked toward attempting to get people to say "NO
PROBLEM, good idea about that divorce."
What Jenny wrote was "the very nature of divorce puts the adults
first." Speaking of divorce, that is true. Speaking in general of
the topic, Jenny can't be disagreed with to a certain extent. Not by
an example from one situation that's already past the divorce stage.
What happens in a separation process happens after the marriage
deterioriated.
What we want to help people see is that preventing marriages from
deteriorating earlier on can be crucial to the establishment and
continuation of unschooling.
I'm going to start a different thread, because I don't want to talk
about this one single divorce. I want to talk about trust and
planning for the future by living in the moment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]