Sandra Dodd

Is this the list where we were discussion kids getting along? If
not, I'm starting a new topic. <g>

I remember how school drove a big wedge between me and my sister. I
wasn't even allowed to communicate with her at school. She was in
first grade when I was in fourth. Our recesses and lunches were at
different times. But the teachers and the other kids kept people
from mixing with kids much younger or older than they were.

My mom contributed too, by shaming me and "making me" take her places
with me or share with her, so that I never wanted to choose to do that.

Our relationship was not good and is still strained because of some
of those things. She's still very frustrated and self conscious if I
do something more easily than she does, or have something better, and
she tends to laugh and do the happy dance if she bests me. If my
kids do better than hers at something, she goes into a funk or pout.

I was looking at MySpace. Holly does some cool html stuff. And I'm
not at all surprised Holly has her brothers on her "top eight"
friends section. I thought it worth pointing out for the record
though, that Kirby, at 19, with 58 friends (other sites that are
reciprocal with his), has Marty 3rd and Holly 4th. The first is
another unschooler he's known since they were 7 and 8. Second is a
homeschooler he knew from the SCA, who is in the military now. Of
the remaining four, one's a homeschooler and three he knows from a
gaming shop.

Marty, 17, has 63 friends and he has Holly in first position and
Kirby in 2nd. Then there are three locals he met through
homeschooling or La Leche League (lifelong friend, Julie), then one
he met at a Live and Learn conference, and the next two I'm not sure.

Holly was the least sibling friendly. Marty is #5 and Kirby is #6.
Still, top eight. <g>

They're friendly other ways too, of course. Marty is playing
Oblivion in Kirby's room. Holly and Kirby play Guitar Hero in
Marty's room (and Kirby's working on Final Fantasy X-2 sometimes, in
Marty's room). Kirby has gone to housesit, and took the laptop that
belongs to the family but is "Holly's computer," and she's using his
while he's gone.

There's very little "no" or "get out" and I think it's because they
didn't hear that much from me or their dad. They're generous because
that's what they're used to.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/24/2006 9:21:52 A.M. Central Standard Time,
Sandra@... writes:

There's very little "no" or "get out" and I think it's because they
didn't hear that much from me or their dad. They're generous because
that's what they're used to.



I've been thinking lately about the camaraderie between Brenna (16) and
Logan (13). We're in a new house and I can hear them easier at night now when
I've gone to bed. They stay up later than I do watching TV or playing games or
just hanging out together. Many nights I wake up not because the TV is too
loud but because of the sound of their laughter. It's a comforting happy sound
and a nice way to go to sleep.

Logan planned his 13th birthday party last week and the first person on his
guest list was Brenna. I didn't expect them to be such good friends when
they were teens. It's very cool.

Gail


Gail


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

April Morris

The last two on Marty's top eight are Kate and Lisa, they met at conference.


I love how my kids get along. The girls are each other's best friends. They
don't always get along, but they are always there for each other. (sharing
clothes is sometimes an issue, depends on their 'mood' at the time). Lisa
has a computer in her room and has told her brothers that they are welcome
to use it when she's not home or not busy with it. And the game systems are
in the boys room, but anyone is welcome to go in and use them. Rarely is it
an issue. I don't think they think much of it really. The older kids love
to get a group of teens together and go to the local park or nature center
and play capture the flag. Especially after dark. They will have a dozen
14-22 year olds gathered. And they think nothing of inviting their 10 year
old brother along for the fun. I've never asked them to do that, they just
do. Of course, it was exciting when the police came one night to check them
out. A helicopter and 3 cars. But that's a different story....with a fun
ending and one of Ben's favorite stories to tell. Anyway, my kids do stuff
together all the time because they like each other's company. They enjoy
spending time with their Dad and I. Their friends have gotten used to it and
think it's great, but often, when a newcomer joins in they find it all very
odd.

The girls insisted that Chuck and I get a Myspace page. So we could read
what they write. I would never had bothered except they made one for me. And
Kate, who writes the most, is often asking us "did you read my latest
blog?". No need for secrets. They know we will respect their privacy when
asked and we won't snoop, but they are very open with us because they know
they can trust us. And now, some of their closer friends will do the same.
Ask us if we read their latest blog entry. I've had to subscribe to a few
because they were offended if I hadn't noticed a new one.

~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-17, Karl-14, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey

On 3/24/06, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Is this the list where we were discussion kids getting along? If
> not, I'm starting a new topic. <g>
>
> I remember how school drove a big wedge between me and my sister. I
> wasn't even allowed to communicate with her at school. She was in
> first grade when I was in fourth. Our recesses and lunches were at
> different times. But the teachers and the other kids kept people
> from mixing with kids much younger or older than they were.
>
> My mom contributed too, by shaming me and "making me" take her places
> with me or share with her, so that I never wanted to choose to do that.
>
> Our relationship was not good and is still strained because of some
> of those things. She's still very frustrated and self conscious if I
> do something more easily than she does, or have something better, and
> she tends to laugh and do the happy dance if she bests me. If my
> kids do better than hers at something, she goes into a funk or pout.
>
> I was looking at MySpace. Holly does some cool html stuff. And I'm
> not at all surprised Holly has her brothers on her "top eight"
> friends section. I thought it worth pointing out for the record
> though, that Kirby, at 19, with 58 friends (other sites that are
> reciprocal with his), has Marty 3rd and Holly 4th. The first is
> another unschooler he's known since they were 7 and 8. Second is a
> homeschooler he knew from the SCA, who is in the military now. Of
> the remaining four, one's a homeschooler and three he knows from a
> gaming shop.
>
> Marty, 17, has 63 friends and he has Holly in first position and
> Kirby in 2nd. Then there are three locals he met through
> homeschooling or La Leche League (lifelong friend, Julie), then one
> he met at a Live and Learn conference, and the next two I'm not sure.
>
> Holly was the least sibling friendly. Marty is #5 and Kirby is #6.
> Still, top eight. <g>
>
> They're friendly other ways too, of course. Marty is playing
> Oblivion in Kirby's room. Holly and Kirby play Guitar Hero in
> Marty's room (and Kirby's working on Final Fantasy X-2 sometimes, in
> Marty's room). Kirby has gone to housesit, and took the laptop that
> belongs to the family but is "Holly's computer," and she's using his
> while he's gone.
>
> There's very little "no" or "get out" and I think it's because they
> didn't hear that much from me or their dad. They're generous because
> that's what they're used to.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 24, 2006, at 8:52 AM, April Morris wrote:

> The last two on Marty's top eight are Kate and Lisa, they met at
> conference.

Okay! Then all unschooling friends (but one who was kinda schooled
and then went back to school, but still they met in an unschooling
group).

-=-The older kids love
to get a group of teens together and go to the local park or nature
center
and play capture the flag. Especially after dark. They will have a dozen
14-22 year olds gathered. And they think nothing of inviting their 10
year
old brother along for the fun. I've never asked them to do that, they
just
do. Of course, it was exciting when the police came one night to
check them
out.-=-

My kids have played boffer wars, and a game Marty made up called Orc
Ball. They haven't been lately, but did for years. One December 26
the police came (no helicopters, darn it) when they were having a
boffer battle in the leftover trees of the Christmas tree lot behind
our house. The owners knew they did it every year, and didn't mind,
but the police didn't know and sent them home (which was the gate at
the end of the lot <g>).

-=-The girls insisted that Chuck and I get a Myspace page. So we
could read
what they write. I would never had bothered except they made one for
me.-=-

Me too. Holly kept showing me her page, and then just decided I
should have my own. Marty made me a friend before I even knew how to
get in there. So I'm just there to see Holly's stuff, and see other
people's sites by following her friends photos. I know lots of their
friends.

Sandra

elizabeth roberts

My brothers (one older by a year, one two years younger) and I are not close, and I do fully believe that it is in part because of the segregation of schools.

Yesterday, the kids spent about two hours outside in the front yard playing some elaborate game together with the rocks from the rock garden and a "nap club" in the van with their pillows and blankets. It was beautiful...

Beth



Sing, Dance, Laugh...LOVE!

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

D Smith

Forgive me, I am still new, when it comes to
unschooling. But lately in my quest for knowledge
about it, I can't find anything about dating. My
husband and I had planned to be very strict about
dating. But now we are on the fence and not sure which
direction to go in. I feel teenagers shouldn't date
one on one, or be alone because of my fears about sex.
However, if you teach your children from a young age
the value of abstience then it shouldn't be a problem.
And then I wouldn't have to worry about my 'rules'
about dating. Am I correct? That is the ideal of
unschooling????
Thank you in advance.
Danie

__________________________________________________
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nellebelle

==-=-=-=-=-=-=I feel teenagers shouldn't date one on one, or be alone
because of my fears about sex.
However, if you teach your children from a young age the value of abstinence
then it shouldn't be a problem. And then I wouldn't have to worry about my
'rules' about dating. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I don't think a young child could comprehend the idea of abstinence, so I
don't see how you could teach it from a young age. You can, however, be
open and honest with your children from the time they began asking
questions.

You can share *your* ideas about the value of abstinence all you want, but
in the end, your child will be the one to make decisions regarding sex. If
your child thinks your biggest concern is abstinence, they may not be likely
to come to you for help or advice if they make a different choice.

I think it is very important to differentiate between your values and facts
regarding sex. Many people DO have sex outside of marriage with no short or
long term harm. Yes there are risks, but it is not true that all sex
outside of marriage is harmful.

The teen years span from 13 to 19 and the needs and desires will vary
greatly throughout those years. There is nothing wrong with encouraging
your teen to do things in groups, rather than one on one (and I think most
teens prefer this when they are younger), but at some point your child will
be alone with someone of the opposite sex.

A neighbor once asked me if I have had "the talk" with my kids. My reply
included that there isn't "the" talk - there are lots of small moments when
we can share facts and our thoughts/beliefs/values/ with our children.

I had an experience about a week ago. A friend stopped by my house. She is
getting divorced and had planned to unschool her children, but now they are
in school.

After she left, I drove Lisa (13) to an activity in town. It seemed like a
good opportunity to talk about one very real risk of pregnancy out of
wedlock or with the wrong person - that you will end up as a single parent.
(Plus we were side by side in the car <g>) I said that it is not a bad
thing to be a single parent, but that it is very difficult. Not only is
money likely to be in short supply (something my dd is familiar with), but
the one parent may not be able to figure out a way to stay home with the
child/ren. I mentioned the problem of what to do when the child is sick -
that the parent may not have sick leave and staying home could mean less $$
in the family budget.

This was a personal example that she could understand. I did not say that
she *should not* have sex before marriage, I simply told her about a real
life situation for someone she knows. It gives her one more thing to
consider when she is making choices in her life.

Mary Ellen

hmsdragonfly

> I feel teenagers shouldn't date
> one on one, or be alone because of my fears about sex.

Do you mean your fears about rape? Pregnancy? Disease? Or are you
talking about morals? It will help you to sort this out if you get
clear on what you're actually concerned about. For the first three,
there are lots of alternatives to a big dating prohibition that will
help you keep your kids safe *and* calm your fears. If you think
unschooling will somehow contribute to your child having "loose"
morals, well, we have other things to talk about than dating. :-)

If you do in fact have fears of sex itself, then I would hope that you
don't intend to pass them on to your children! Whatever caused your
fears is not part of *their* lives. Give them the chance to have
healthy, joyous sex lives by sharing with them that healthy, joyous
sex lives are possible and desirable.

My daughters are 12 and 13. For their whole lives, they have seen
their dad and me hugging, kissing, snuggling. As they've gotten older,
without any real plan to do so, it has become natural and comfortable
for dh and me to engage in some rated-G sexual playfulness in front of
them. We (meaning the kids and the parents) also have casual talks
about whatever sex-related subjects that come up during life. We don't
approach sex as a big, scary subject; it's just another unschooling
topic of conversation, you know?

The result is that the kids take things in stride. They often respond
to our playfulness with their own playful eye-rolling and "Oh,
brother" type comments. And one day, when one of them walked in on dh
and me at a private moment, she simply turned around again and walked
out, mostly unphased. Dh later asked her if her eyes were all right. :-
)

This year, both girls are headed off to situations where they will
have virtually their first chance to be alone with boys. We have
talked about some good-sense safety precautions, and I related a story
from my college days about a vulnerable situation I got myself into
that I look back and know I was lucky to get out of safely. I've also
talked frankly about how good sex feels, and how easy it is to get
carried away when it's all new to you. We didn't need to go into much
detail about STDs and pregnancy because, well, those topics are kind
of old news by now.

Anyway, the point is, sex and its pleasures and dangers and
consequences are all out on the table. When my daughters become
interested in dating, there won't be rules about it. No curfews, no
group requirements (not sure how this would help, given the number of
cars that contain multiple necking couples), no chaperones. Instead,
there will be talks about comfort levels and safety, self-respect,
love, birth control, and courtesy, and there will be, I hope, a mother-
daughter relationship that allows for questions and sharing and the
occasional tidbit of advice.

df

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 24, 2006, at 3:30 PM, hmsdragonfly wrote:

> When my daughters become
> interested in dating, there won't be rules about it. No curfews, no
> group requirements (not sure how this would help, given the number of
> cars that contain multiple necking couples), no chaperones. Instead,
> there will be talks about comfort levels and safety, self-respect,
> love, birth control, and courtesy, and there will be, I hope, a
> mother-
> daughter relationship that allows for questions and sharing and the
> occasional tidbit of advice.


My kids are usually in groups. Kirby has had a few one-on-one kind
of dates, taking someone he was particularly interested in to dinner
or a movie, but it wasn't classic dating where the appointment was
made days before and they dressed up. It was a casual part of their
normal lives. More often he's gone with groups of three or more, in
various combinations of males and females. The idea of parking to
make out doesn't happen. As far as I know, anything like that has
happened at campouts or once in his room (nothing extreme). He
drives a conversion van with a queen sized bed that folds down, but
I've never heard of it being used in that way.

Holly went to a St. Patrick's party last Friday. There was a
contingency plan about Kirby and Brett (19 and 20) staying overnight,
if they drank. Marty was designated drive, but thought he might want
to come back earliesh (meaning before 2:00). Holly asked if she
could stay over too, and I said no, because we could probably be in
serious legal trouble for something like that, so she needed to come
back when Marty did. She understood it, and she trusts me not to say
no if it's not for a good reason.

-=-My
husband and I had planned to be very strict about
dating. But now we are on the fence and not sure which
direction to go in.-=-

I had strict rules about dating when I was a teen, and the result was
that I went out EVERY possible "date night" and stayed until the
stroke of whatever it was (10:00 on Wednesdays, and 11:00 or 12:00 or
after the movie, depending how old I was and where I was going, on
Fridays and Saturdays). My mom had set it up in such an adversarial
and non-trusting way, that I felt like a loser if I came home early
(or failed to leave one of those night). It was stupid. I didn't
even have sex until I was in college, though I had been dating since
the summer before 10th grade (when I turned 15, not a moment
before). I was careful and responsible most of the time, but I was
still treated like a suspect.

My kids have no desperation to be out of the house. They bring
friends here. They have no pressure to have one-on-one "dates" at
all. I've seen that same dynamic with lots of unschoolers. They're
already hanging out in mixed-age groups.

I've also seen a couple of unschoolers who seemed TOTALLY to miss
that boat, and acted pretty thoughtlessly about dating, making all
kinds of rules.

-=-However, if you teach your children from a young age
the value of abstience then it shouldn't be a problem.-=-

Teaching isn't a good part of unschooling. If your child learns
benefits of abstinence, in honest real-world ways, that could be
cool. But she won't "believe" in abstinence just because her mother
"teaches her the value." And as someone pointed out, if she thinks
the only acceptable thing for you is abstinence, she will likely be
secretive and you'll lose your position as an advisor and confidant.

-=--=-My husband and I had planned to be very strict about dating.-=-

Surely you can think of dozens of real-life stories of parents who
were very strict and ended up with kids who got pregnant because the
kids were kept ignorant of options. I bet you can think of real life
stories of teens who moved away from home because there were too many
rules, and stories of girls leaving with the first teenaged boy who
really paid attention to her, because it was the only way to get any
freedom.

A guy is going to have to pretty fantastic for Holly to be
impressed. She sees her brothers' friends all the time, in all their
everydayness. And a guy would have to offer quite a bit for it to be
worth her leaving home. It's nice here. She is very appreciated,
respected and highly regarded. She has no desperation for attention
or freedom.



Sandra

hmsdragonfly

> My kids are usually in groups... More often he's gone with groups
> of three or more, in various combinations of males and females.

Good point. Our 17yo exchange student, when given complete freedom to
go and do and stay out late, spent lots of time here (her friends
loved us), could most often be found hanging out with groups of five
or more, and was usually home by 2 a.m.

I keep typing final sentences for that paragraph, such as "Rules
weren't necessary," but saying something like that implies that I
think going out as couples or staying out past two are problems, and I
don't. So I'll just let you take whatever comfort you can from the
fact that our life without rules ended up with conditions similar to
those you desire.

df

D Smith

I just want to say thank you for all the replies. We
have been hashing this out. Mostly my hangs up about
dating have to do with my rape as a teenager. But I
knew that. Again, thank you for you wonderful insight.
We have agreed to just let ago. When our son is old
enough, I know he'll make good choices.
Danie

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Sandra Dodd

On Mar 24, 2006, at 8:55 PM, D Smith wrote:

> Mostly my hangs up about
> dating have to do with my rape as a teenager.


I'm sorry to hear about that. My sister (three years younger than I
am) was raped at 14, at knifepoint, by two guys, in an arroyo, while
her slightly-younger friend (not her boyfriend, just a buddy) watched
helplessly. He was 12, maybe barely 13. The leader bully was
eventually imprisoned, but my sister didn't report it because they
threatened to hurt the boy who was with her if she reported it to the
police.

Complicated, emotionally.

If someone in your current life is bringing up emotional memories, it
might be an excellent time to go for a session or two of counselling,
maybe to discuss another pass at healing (for you) and to help you
not lay all that on your kids.

My mom was raped as a young teen, by her brother (who died of a fever
within a year, and she didn't tell). She didn't tell me until Kirby
was a year old. It did explain a lot of her odd behaviors over the
years, and some of the odd messages she had given us, and seemingly-
nonsensical "rules" (Don't play in the barn with David—no general
rule about not being in an enclosed place with a person of the
opposite sex, but specifically barn, and specifically one sweet,
harmless neighbor). So children can be aversely affected even when
they have no idea why.

Sandra

wifetovegman2002

--- In [email protected], D Smith <sandshuse@...>
wrote:
>
> Forgive me, I am still new, when it comes to
> unschooling. But lately in my quest for knowledge
> about it, I can't find anything about dating. My
> husband and I had planned to be very strict about
> dating. But now we are on the fence and not sure which
> direction to go in. I feel teenagers shouldn't date
> one on one, or be alone because of my fears about sex.
> However, if you teach your children from a young age
> the value of abstience then it shouldn't be a problem.
> And then I wouldn't have to worry about my 'rules'
> about dating. Am I correct? That is the ideal of
> unschooling????


Not quite, Danie. I don't know whether you are coming at this from a
religious POV, or as a victim of date-rape, or if you are living with
consequences of decisions you yourself made as a teen, but it sounds
like you have a lot of issues from your past that you are projecting
onto your kids.

Talking to your children and answering their questions about
everything from a young age is very important, to be sure. Being open
and honest and giving them truthful information is also
important...not just information about the bad stuff that can happen,
but also the good stuff. You don't have to teach them about
abstinence any more than you have to teach them to read or math or
history or science.

The most important thing is establishing a relationship of trust with
your children and communicate with them all the time. Sometimes I
want to tell my kids that they don't HAVE to tell me everything they
are thinking! LOL! TMI! But I don't.

As the mom of a 16.5 year old girl, and an almost 15 year old boy, we
haven't had to make any rules about dating. Sarah has had the same
boyfriend since she was 13, which is rather young, but not younger
than I was as a teen. We talk all the time, and she tells me
everything about their relationship, much more than I ever would have
told my parents.

If you work hard at building a relationship of trust and communication
from the time they are small, you won't ever have to have rules. You
will trust them to make the decisions that are right for them, and you
will know that they won't make decisions out of rebellion and
resentment to the rules you can't possibly enforce anyway.


Susan M (VA)
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html

"Real, natural learning is in the living. It's in the observing, the
questioning, the examining, the pondering, the analyzing, the
watching, the reading, the DO-ing, the living, the breathing, the
loving, the Joy. It's in the Joy." ~Anne Ohman

Kathy Evans

This is a great discussion of the whole topic of
dating/sex. I agree with most everything you said and
Sandra's comments are great too. Thank you. I don't
agree that 'many people do have sex outside of
marriage with no short or long term harm'. Firstly,
there is just no way of really knowing/measuring this.
I think that the younger people are, the trickier it
can be to have emotionally healthy sex. I agree that
with lots of trust and dialog between parents and
teens, the risks of (emotional) harm are way lower. I
realize also that most all of what people see as
examples of how these things play out are of 'schooled
and ruled' teens.
The other point I want to add is about single parents.
I think it is selfish to have a child as a single
parent and not do everything in ones power to provide
a 2 parent home for a child. Adoption is a solution
here. What does this say to the fathers of our
children to not mention the value of a father? We
could go on and on about the value of a father for a
child, for the wife too to have that love and support
etc. My sister made a concious decision to have her
daughter without a husband. The childs father left and
didn't want any part of it. Much earlier in her
daughter's life than my sister expected (age 4, I'm
guessing) her little girl started expressing the
desire for a father. Of course she was starting to
notice she was different in this way from many kids
she knew. This has been an ongoing emotional issue
ever since. Its always bubbling under the surface. Her
daughter is 10 now. It was heartbreaking then and
still is. And the ups and downs of dating possible
future fathers, getting attached then having to let
go.......for a child this is.......I don't know what
word to use. Its just so sad to me. And it is
avoidable. Not to say we (who have a 2 parent home for
our kids) have no emotional stress etc. but it just
seems like such a more stable base from which to
start. These are (some of) the discussions I'm working
on with my kids, 14 and 10, how to create and start
out with the most healthy and stable marriage, that
you can then bring a baby into. I really think, like
Sandra spoke to, that if our home life is really
enjoyable, it will take a really great person to draw
them away......that they will be more likely to choose
a great partner. And of course, all the other aspects
mentioned, lots of dialog, trust etc.
Thanks for the dicsussion.

Kathy


I don't think a young child could comprehend the idea
of abstinence, so
I
don't see how you could teach it from a young age.
You can, however,
be
open and honest with your children from the time they
began asking
questions.

You can share *your* ideas about the value of
abstinence all you want,
but
in the end, your child will be the one to make
decisions regarding sex.
If
your child thinks your biggest concern is abstinence,
they may not be
likely
to come to you for help or advice if they make a
different choice.

I think it is very important to differentiate between
your values and
facts
regarding sex. Many people DO have sex outside of
marriage with no
short or
long term harm. Yes there are risks, but it is not
true that all sex
outside of marriage is harmful.

The teen years span from 13 to 19 and the needs and
desires will vary
greatly throughout those years. There is nothing
wrong with
encouraging
your teen to do things in groups, rather than one on
one (and I think
most
teens prefer this when they are younger), but at some
point your child
will
be alone with someone of the opposite sex.

A neighbor once asked me if I have had "the talk" with
my kids. My
reply
included that there isn't "the" talk - there are lots
of small moments
when
we can share facts and our thoughts/beliefs/values/
with our children.

I had an experience about a week ago. A friend
stopped by my house.
She is
getting divorced and had planned to unschool her
children, but now they
are
in school.

After she left, I drove Lisa (13) to an activity in
town. It seemed
like a
good opportunity to talk about one very real risk of
pregnancy out of
wedlock or with the wrong person - that you will end
up as a single
parent.
(Plus we were side by side in the car <g>) I said
that it is not a bad
thing to be a single parent, but that it is very
difficult. Not only
is
money likely to be in short supply (something my dd is
familiar with),
but
the one parent may not be able to figure out a way to
stay home with
the
child/ren. I mentioned the problem of what to do when
the child is
sick -
that the parent may not have sick leave and staying
home could mean
less $$
in the family budget.

This was a personal example that she could understand.
I did not say
that
she *should not* have sex before marriage, I simply
told her about a
real
life situation for someone she knows. It gives her
one more thing to
consider when she is making choices in her life.

Mary Ellen

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 26, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Kathy Evans wrote:

> I don't
> agree that 'many people do have sex outside of
> marriage with no short or long term harm'. Firstly,
> there is just no way of really knowing/measuring this.

This sounds EXACTLY like the statements people make about unschooling.

"I don't agree that children can grow up without a curriculum with no
harm. There is no way of really knowing/measuring this."

I had sex outside of marriage with no short or longterm harm.
I know hundreds of others who can say so as well.

Keith just got back from our friends' house. She was my bridesmaid.
My 21st anniversary is Friday, but Keith and I were together (with
sex, outside marriage) for six years before that. My bridesmaid is
not married, but let me run the numbers. Keith and I have been
together for 27 years, and she and Steve were together four years
before that. They're still not married.

Having sex isn't the same as having children. My bridesmaid had a
medical problem which required medication that couldn't mix with
pregnancy, but to stop taking the medication for the length of a
pregnancy would have let a tumor grow that would probably have killed
her. She had to choose not to have children.

-=-Much earlier in her
daughter's life than my sister expected (age 4, I'm
guessing) her little girl started expressing the
desire for a father. Of course she was starting to
notice she was different in this way from many kids
she knew.-=-

Unschoolers are different from all the schoolkids around them. We
could just send them to school now, or put them up for adoption to
schooling families, but are you saying we should have just abstained
from unschooling in the first place?

There are many people who see our choice to unschool as potentially
"heartbreaking."

-=-And the ups and downs of dating possible
future fathers, getting attached then having to let
go.......for a child this is.......I don't know what
word to use. Its just so sad to me. And it is
avoidable.-=-

Avoidable by having abstained from sex in the first place you mean?

I knew a family with six children. The parents were married
throughout. The first two were born when the parents were young, and
though the first was probably a surprise, the second was planned. (I
married him, but it's not Keith, it was long ago; his name was Jim
Gill.) There were four other children, each born despite the
mother's use of a new and hopefully more reliable form of birth
control than the one that had failed so recently.

Abstinence isn't magic, and it MUST be a choice. Our culture has
hundreds of years of recorded (and many more to be extrapolated
easily) failure of parental rules, "controls" and threats. If it was
going to work, why didn't it work in the 19th century? 18th? 17th?

Information is important, and of course information should include
the sorrows and fears involved with single parenthood, and it should
also include honest information about birth control, and it should
NOT include assumptive statements involving things like sex outside
of marriage always causes harm (which I believe might be the other
side of the coin marked in public thusly: "I don't
agree that 'many people do have sex outside of
marriage with no short or long term harm'. Firstly,
there is just no way of really knowing/measuring this.")

*ONE* false statement from a parent makes all other statements suspect.
One overblown warning or claim erodes the child's trust in other
warnings.

Sandra

Su Penn

On Mar 26, 2006, at 1:05 PM, Kathy Evans wrote:

> I don't
> agree that 'many people do have sex outside of
> marriage with no short or long term harm'. Firstly,
> there is just no way of really knowing/measuring this.

This is one of those things where, to me, it doesn't matter what's
true for "many" or "most" people. What matters is what each person is
able to do. I personally have always been terrible at casual sex; I
get too emotionally invested, I get hurt, I can't tell whether the
fact that this person wants to sleep with me means they find me
attractive and value me or means they're happy to exploit me. It's
best for me to avoid it, even when I'm tempted. My partner David and
I are technically non-monogamous, but I haven't acted on that in
almost six years--and that last brief affair was bad enought that it
just reinforced my notion that I shouldn't try casual sex again.

I have a friend--actually, two, now that I think about it--who are
really good at it. They can have this light, pleasing, sometimes very
emotionally satisfying, deep sex with people they'll never see again,
and walk away feeing good about it, good about themselves, good about
the other person. Sometimes it's hard for me to believe it's really
OK for them--and not just OK, but positive--because that is so
different from my own experience. But I listen to what they tell me
and I have to believe them.

So, one complicated thing I have to hold in my head and heart is that
I can't lay down a rule for my kids about whether and when it's OK to
have sex, how often, with whom--they are going to have to figure that
out for themselves, probably through some trial and error. They're
probably going to sleep with some people they regret sleeping with.
If they're like me, they're also probably going to pass on some
opportunities and regret that, too. Two of the opportunities I regret
are with boys I loved very deeply for years in middle school and high
school (yes, two of them--feelings are complicated) and I'm sorry
that I never was able to share that kind of intimacy with them.

There can be big consequences to sex--birth control failures,
disease, emotional fallout from mistakes. So I want to acknowledge
that to my kids. But I don't want to magnify those consequences unduly.

Su

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 26, 2006, at 2:03 PM, Su Penn wrote:

> There can be big consequences to sex--birth control failures,
> disease, emotional fallout from mistakes. So I want to acknowledge
> that to my kids. But I don't want to magnify those consequences
> unduly.


So we should make a list of warnings that parents might want to give
kids, or maybe make sure (casually somehow) that they're aware of them.

emotional distress
regret
guilt over causing one of the above to someone else
birth control failure
disease
illegality / trouble / getting caught (at different points in life
and in different circumstances those will be different things)
entanglement with nut cases (I've warned my boys, following having
met a couple of their potential female companions)
premature marriage (which I think can be as bad as any of the other
things)
loss of choices

On that last one, I'm thinking of two things. One was a long talk I
had with my boys and another couple of their friends when a desperate
kind of teen girl (I felt sorry for her, but still...) seemed to want
and need nothing more than to be liberated from babysitting her
younger siblings while her dad drank and partied and slept. The
mom's whereabouts were unknown to me, but she was long gone one way
or another. I warned the boys that a pregnancy might seem like a
great thing to her, if her dad would throw her out about it, or if
the other family would take her in. And I told them that if they
ever get a girl pregnant they have no option but to be a father at
that point, but they would have no control over whether they were
allowed to be good fathers or absent fathers or even whether the
pregnancy would continue to term. They might doom themselves to a
life of guilt and shame and no contact with the child ever. The
other thought is of girls who have been forced to give babies up for
adoption so that the parents could save face. Many, many parents.
And DID they save face? Depends which side of their face you look
at, I guess.

Sandra

[email protected]

Another thing I wanted to add to the list, not sure what the short version
is though...

My first "time" was with a boy who I was together with for almost a year, in
high school. We were really good friends, had mutual friends, etc. After
we broke up, the friendship was destroyed, maybe from embarassment? or
Jealousy? Being uncomfortable? I don't know...I just know we didn't do stuff
together anymore as a group like we had. Kinda like divorce, where there's a
possibility you might lose a lot of mutual friends. Maybe it could be
explained as:

Loss of mutual friends.


Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 26, 2006, at 3:15 PM, CelticFrau@... wrote:

> Loss of mutual friends.


I added these two to my building list:

probable loss of that friendship in case of breakup
possible loss of mutual friends


It's not just the mutual friends loss that's a risk. Marty had two
groups he used to hang around with. One was a few homeschoolers, all
older than he was, some past school age. One was gamers he met
through Kirby. Some nights he would hang out with one group and some
nights with another. Through Marty and Kirby and parties at our
house, they mingled.

A homeschooler (Sadie, who was mentioned as a cloning candidate, in
the family panel in St. Louis) started to "go out with" (not much
out, but "going") with Ryan, who was part of the gamer group. Both
are grown people, 21 and 23 at the moment, I think, and 20 and 22
when it started. First, BOTH groups Marty hung with were stalled
out. Ryan was busy with Sadie? Okay, maybe he could go bowling with
Brett and.... oh. Sadie's with Ryan tonight.

So loss of social life started happening immediately.

And that wasn't even about Marty having sex/dating/relationships.
<bwg> It was about Marty having introduced his friends to one another.

Life is risky. <bwg>

Now, sure enough, if Sadie and Ryan break up lots of things will
become very awkward. It will affect who we can invite to parties at
OUR house, no matter what kind of party it is.

I have no idea how to add that warning to the list. Life is fluxxy.

Sandra

diana jenner

>On Mar 26, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Kathy Evans wrote:
>
>
>-=-Much earlier in her
>daughter's life than my sister expected (age 4, I'm
>guessing) her little girl started expressing the
>desire for a father. Of course she was starting to
>notice she was different in this way from many kids
>she knew.-=-
>-=-And the ups and downs of dating possible
>future fathers, getting attached then having to let
>go.......for a child this is.......I don't know what
>word to use. Its just so sad to me. And it is
>avoidable.-=-
>
>
>
And guess what?? You can do it all the right way (children conceived
within a happy, healthy marriage) and find yourself at 32, widowed with
two young children... I know, I've lived it for 5 years. Please don't
scare your children into thinking that there's only ONE way and that it
somehow guarantees granted wishes... (I almost wrote guarantees
happiness, but I think that is one thing you *should* tell your kids -
no matter the path, happiness is available). Sometimes it *is* sad,
really really sad, but in the big in-betweens, there's lots of love and
joy. There are even moments of "I wouldn't have it any other way."

:) diana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 26, 2006, at 3:51 PM, diana jenner wrote:

> And guess what?? You can do it all the right way (children conceived
> within a happy, healthy marriage) and find yourself at 32, widowed
> with
> two young children..


Hey, Diana!
Welcome back.

Sandra

D Smith

I wrote this out once, but had one of those computer
moments when the screen changes and I didn't even have
my hand on the mouse. Awwwwwww, technology.
Anyways, here's my story since a lot of people are
very interested in why I would have such rules and
what is my fear for those rules. When I was 15, I was
gang raped by my first boyfriend and two of his
friends. This went on about 4 months. I never told a
soul till I was 18. That event(s) caused me to have
post tramatic stress. I go to therapy. I'm coming to
terms with my guilt. I have felt responsible for it.
But I really listened to what everyone has said on
this post. (when I read a post, you'll have different
voices in my head) lol Also, when I posted this on
here, I asked my brother (VERY close relationship)
what his thoughts were. And we talked about 'our talk'
on sex, relationships, dating, etc... He was 12, then.
And he told me I gave him the best advice, and that is
the reason he won't have sex with just anyone. And
because I've been right ( I warned him about his first
g/f, she was manipulative and tried unsuccessfuly to
get in his pants, all to get pregnant) He trusts my
opinion and advice.
So, I am taking his advice so to speak, I am letting
go of my fears. My child (one day children) will be
just fine when it comes to dating, sex, relationships.
If I can say one thing on behave of something I shared
with my brother, I showed him (again at age 12) what
STDs looked like. And he said that alone made him want
to keep his penis in his pants. Also, I think his
girlfriend helped too. After all she did everything to
pressure him, and he wouldn't budge. I'm proud that he
makes decisions based on what I showed him. Because
some people in life can be very scary.


When it comes to the little girl who wants a daddy.
She might crave that for the rest of her life and one
day, she might just let it go. As her aunt maybe you
can show her that even without her biological dad, she
is still loved and valued. Because that's really what
she's looking for. I've been down this road. I never
got that until I was married. That's one reason it
was so easy for me to be prey. That's why I never
turned in those jerks for all the abuse they put me
threw. I'm all for protecting our kids. But I have
seen (which is why, I think I posted, because my heart
was telling me strict rules would only be WRONG) what
can happen if we are strict. As a teenager, I knew a
girl who got pregnant, and the only time she ever had
sex, or time to be alone to have sex, was while at
church. They did it in the baptismal. Lovely, huh?

I know I said a lot, thanks for hearing me out.
danie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Sandra Dodd

-=-maybe you
can show her that even without her biological dad, she
is still loved and valued. Because that's really what
she's looking for. I've been down this road. I never
got that until I was married. That's one reason it
was so easy for me to be prey. -=-

Well that's a HUGE part of what we're talking about in general on
this list, though, is kids not being needy or desperate for the
attention of other people.
http://sandradodd.com/respect

If we can be respectful of our kids and attentive and affectionate
and patient, why on earth would they trust ANYone more than they
trust us?

Even in the throes of puberty and impending adulthood, even when
Kirby can show momentary exasperation with my questions or advice or
reminders, he will come back later when he's less frustrated and ask
me questions. He's getting to the point that he feels the
biological imperative to get away from his nest, his home, his mom
and dad, but he trusts us.

And about that baptismal sex thing...
I'm guessing it was a Baptist church, and not Catholic.
I'm sure some Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. here might've had an
"EWW!" moment picturing teens up on the font in some precarious
position. But for the benefit of those not raised "low church," a
baptismal can also be a metal room, basically, about 8 feet long and
five feet wide, with a curtained window opening toward where the
congregation would be (I'm guessing they were there then!) and one
door into it otherwise.

There were better places at my church if one wanted to find a hidey
place. Sheesh.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/26/2006 6:55:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sandra@... writes:

>>And about that baptismal sex thing...
I'm guessing it was a Baptist church, and not Catholic.
I'm sure some Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. here might've had an
"EWW!" moment picturing teens up on the font in some precarious
position. But for the benefit of those not raised "low church," a
baptismal can also be a metal room, basically, about 8 feet long and
five feet wide, with a curtained window opening toward where the
congregation would be (I'm guessing they were there then!) and one
door into it otherwise.<<<

I've been in a baptist church and thought, Hm....this would be very wet and
cold. The one I saw was like a bathtub with see-through sides that you
stepped down into.


>>There were better places at my church if one wanted to find a hidey
place. Sheesh.<<

I'm thinking the confessional? LOL

BTW, some of the highest amount of exposure to all things "dirty" happened
at Church camp...I went with a friend to her churches backpack trips and snow
trips a few times, and the amount of hanky-panky going on there was big!
Including the counselors!!

Nancy B.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 26, 2006, at 5:12 PM, CelticFrau@... wrote:

> I've been in a baptist church and thought, Hm....this would be very
> wet and
> cold.


Only wet on the rare baptism days. <g> Ours was steel or
fiberglass. Bluish grey (water-colored paint, I guess). It wouldn't
have been comfortable, but neither is the backseat of a car.

-=-I'm thinking the confessional? LOL-=-

Baptists don't have those. There were mats in the nursery, and
carpet. There were unused classrooms. There was the closet where
the choir robes were.

Sandra

Su Penn

On Mar 26, 2006, at 5:51 PM, diana jenner wrote:

> . (I almost wrote guarantees
> happiness, but I think that is one thing you *should* tell your kids -
> no matter the path, happiness is available).

I really liked hearing this, diana. Thank you.

Su

hsmamaca

O.K. My husbands thoughts on the matter are as follows.

The surest way of alienating your children in regards to dating is to
put strict limits on it. Creating feelings of shame or to expect you
to be disappointed with them can create an unbridgeable gap with
regards to sex or sexual activity. The most important thing is to
ensure they have a strong sense of self worth. They wont strike out
to find it in others through sex or other social means like drugs and
alcohol -or at least will be less likely to for those reasons.
Participating in potentially risky behavior can be a choice and not a
reaction, but is less likely in children with a strong self worth.

I agree with him.

I have had many friends who totally went wild as teens and young
adults. Some ended up in downward spirals of self destruction others
are happily walking their paths through life. The major differences
were the relationships with one or more of their parents or mentors,
their friends, and their education on the subject (whether through
self education or from others).

I was mostly self educated and read a lot on the subject of sex and
sexuality, mostly because the miss information I was getting from
peers drove me nuts. Besides not finding the right guy until I was
older than all but one of my close friends I knew I wasn't ready to
deal with the consequences yet. It turned out to be rather fortunate
as I am rather easy to get pregnant. One burst condom, and sex two
days before I missed a pill and had to wait for a week to get them
replaced are proof. (if not the fact we could only squeeze two 'tries'
in on the week we chose to 'try' for baby number four).

Also my 'right guy' wasn't 'right' because of our fabulous, close,
loving relationship, but the way he viewed sex and women. He loved
women, different shapes and sizes blondes, brunets, and red heads. He
respected them and had a good grasp of female sexuality. He loved sex
in a spiritual way and took great pains to find out how his partners
would respond to him and how not to cross comfort zones. Long story
short he was good at and serious about sex. It wasn't just another
notch in the bed post for him but a challenge and life enriching
experience for him. We were friends for years after but have since
lost touch.

I didn't want 'my first' to be the crappy experience most of my
friends had. Cheap and dirty and quick, usually resulting in a loss
of friendship(s) if not self respect. I wanted it to be something to
look back at fondly when I got older. It is. Though I can't remember
'The first time' it's kind of all mashed together as this really
fabulous six or eight months of great sex.

If I hadn't felt free to explore sex as a topic of conversation as
well as all the verying sexual situations I tried out before actually
having sex I wouldn't have had the crappy experiences and the not so
crappy experiences that led to my choice. Unfortunately I wasn't
always so thoughtful with future relationships sexual or not.

It really is an individual choice I think it's best to arm our kids
with the knowledge to make the choices -best for them- at the time.
It is also important to make sure as best we can as parents that our
kids will feel safe coming to us if they need too. In grade 8 my
thirteen yearold friend went through a drug enduced abortion alone
with her not so nice 24 yearold boyfriend who had provided her with
the drugs. She was never quite the same afterwards and we few who
knew about it agonized about what to do or not do as she had sworn
each of us to secrecy as her mother would have pitched her from the
house. Her twenty something sister had been tossed out at 17 for
getting pregnant and then lost the pregnancy while living on the street.

The huge problem I think that will be avoided buy most unschoolers are
the incidence of polite sex. Many of my friends had sex even as
adults because of their inability to say no to someone. They had been
well trained to listen to authority and/or not hurt others feelings
growing up. So just let the sex happen and then many times just
removed themselves from the relationship afterwards.

Last point some people are less outgoing then others or like to keep
their private life private. Sandra's -at least I remember it as being
you if it wasn't correct me please- suggestion of keeping handy items
like condoms that your kids know they or their friends can use is a
way to provide a small safety net for our children. I know friends
that didn't have sex because they didn't have that safety net and are
glad of it as removed from the moment they were able to make a better
choice. But I know far more that didn't have it and became pregnant
or received a new health complication as a result.

the movie American Pie has some good lessons for parents and kids
about how different people react to and experience sex. It's not for
a younger audience I don't think but, I have only seen the extended
and not theatrical release of the movie. It's possible the theater
releases would be more suited to perhaps some ten yearolds maybe. I
would think my son at 11 is't ready for it yet but that is our family.
I know a grown woman who felt it was too much for her.

Could go on but little number four needs some snuggles.
Teresa

elainegh8

> -=-Much earlier in her
> daughter's life than my sister expected (age 4, I'm
> guessing) her little girl started expressing the
> desire for a father. Of course she was starting to
> notice she was different in this way from many kids
> she knew.-=-

I grew up in a single parent household and can honestly say it never
occurred to me even once that I was missing anything. I had a grandad
as a male influence. I never ever wished I had a dad, it just never
happened.

I noticed I was different from other kids, not because I didn't have a
dad but because I was smart. The other kids didn't like it, I made
them feel uncomfortable because I was different. I sometimes used to
wish I was stupid, I imagined my life would be easier if I was. I
know now it wouldn't have been. Being the same as everyone else,
fitting in, does not mean your life will be any better than it is
right now.

BWs Elaine

s.waynforth

> (I almost wrote guarantees
> happiness, but I think that is one thing you *should* tell your kids -
> no matter the path, happiness is available).

Yes, what an important thing!

Schuyler

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 27, 2006, at 12:50 AM, hsmamaca wrote:

> It turned out to be rather fortunate
> as I am rather easy to get pregnant. One burst condom, and sex two
> days before I missed a pill and had to wait for a week to get them
> replaced are proof.


The ones who get pregnant too easily are those whose condoms didn't
burst and who didn't miss a pill and still have two kids! <g> The
IUD and a diaphragm—the other two my first husband's siblings got
around the night they started as a glimmer in their father's eye.

Your husband's summary seems right to me!

-=-The most important thing is to
ensure they have a strong sense of self worth. They wont strike out
to find it in others through sex or other social means like drugs and
alcohol -or at least will be less likely to for those reasons.
Participating in potentially risky behavior can be a choice and not a
reaction, but is less likely in children with a strong self worth. -=-

I used to glom onto guys emotionally, as a teen, even before I
started being sexual. I REALLY loved that they liked me, and I
really did NOT want any of those relationships to end.

My kids don't have any of that intensity about attention, because
they're not starved for gentle direct eye contact and other such things.

Sandra