Deb Lewis

There's an article here about altruism in babies:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-03/04/content_4255251.htm


Here's an excerpt:
*To be altruistic, babies must have the cognitive ability to understand
other people's goals plus possess what Warneken calls "pro-social
motivation" a desire to socialize.
"When those two things come together they obviously do so at 18 months of
age and maybe earlier they are able to help," Warneken explained. *

It's an interesting article but the researcher could have asked a couple
of unschoolers and saved himself all that time. <g>

Deb L
"Nothing came easy, I was just born with
a need to explore every tool shop of my mind, and with long searching and
hard work, I became devoted to my restlessness." ~ Gordon Parks

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 18, 2006, at 7:31 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:

> It's an interesting article but the researcher could have asked a
> couple
> of unschoolers and saved himself all that time. <g>


Holly and I were at Hastings, a video/music store, last week. A
young mom with another young relative (sister/cousin/aunt maybe) was
there with a toddler. The boy was asking for candy, and sat down to
play with a pack of M&M's and then said "I want this." No response.
"I want this."

"No, you have toys in the car. That's your prize for today."

We didn't say anything to each other, just looked, but her answer to
him was some version of "no, put it down."

So the kid takes off leisurely toward the door (entrance,
unfortunately <g>), with the M&Ms.

The mom calls him back, saying come back here right now, and the kid
said "No."

She wasn't mean to him (didn't yell or spank or threaten), but she
wasn't nice to him either. Had she been nicer, he would've been
nicer. She was showing him how people act in public and he was being
just that way—ignoring her and saying no.

My kids heard a lot of "sure, okay" when they were growing up, and
"I'll help you." And they are now very helpful with each other.

Last night they were all going to a St. Patrick's Day Party. They
helped each other with planning outfits and with painting stuff on
each other. Holly did Kirby's hair greenish (it was too dark to go
really green), and they planned how to handle vehicles because Kirby
and Brett were planning to drink there. They had a couple of
possible plans so that no one who might drink would drive. It was
all very cooperative.

I was downstairs before they left and heard Holly say sharply "MARTY,
don't, I said stop it! Don't!" I listened a second to see if she
was serious, and she was, so I went up and he had already stopped
whatever it was, and they were happy again. I realized, though, that
it was the first time I've heard something like that in a long time.
Maybe two years. And true, they're 14-19, but they're also doing
things together, like going to parties.

It's 1:20 in the afternoon. Kirby and Brett stayed over at the house
where the party was. Marty and Holly came home at 4:00 a.m., but
they both set alarms to get up because phase 2 of the party is lunch
at The Olive Garden at 2:00. They had discussed Garduño's but Olive
Garden won out. Both are nice restaurants, not burger or pizza
joints They didn't ask me for money. Holly did get change for a
twenty, so she can make her contribution from her own allowance.
Kirby left at noon with a friend who's getting married in May. They
were going to the tux shop for a fitting. Kirby is a groomsman.
They made sure before they left that they knew, and those still at
the house (Marty, Holly and Brett) knew which Olive Garden and what
time.

Those are kids (except the groom, who doesn't count) who were told
"sure, okay" and "I'll help you" as babies and are happy and helpful
teens.

Sandra

Heather Woodward

Sandra -

Thanks for the story...

We just got back from several stores - and I sometimes feel guilty that I
buy most often something in every store for the kids... This time we went
into a kids consignment store which said they were having a 65% off winter
stuff sale. Beside the clothes that I found my older daughter wanted this
purse and a visor hat - her little sister seeing the hat wanted one as
well... and my son who could care less about clothes (except knows what he
doesn't like ;-) wanted a bionicle. I thought they had priced them a bit
high for second hand and was concerned that maybe all the pieces would not
be in it - and then I would have to come back... but I figured the girls
each picked out things - and fine if I had to go back because pieces were
missing oh well.... everyone left happy.

We went to the library and they were having a used book sale and each picked
out a few books - and to the health food store where Lex picked out a very
expensive organic chocolate bar for each one. When I tried to suggest that
maybe we could get one and share it - no one could agree on which kinds -
so they each got their own and swapped pieces. Happiness $6.00 ;-)

The only thing I really needed to do today was go to OfficeMax and exchange
my used printer cartridge for a free ream of paper ;-) We can't go into a
store where the kids don't see something they want. My husband thinks I
should be saying no more often.... and they don't ask him for things very
often. But sometimes he will just stop and get an ice cream - or a soda
while at the gas station...so they do get things - they just may be smaller
things...

Anyway - I sometimes feel that I really don't "need" to spend the extra
money - I can go in for what I need and get out...but then again it must be
hard being a kid without your "own" money. If I see something I want I can
just buy it.(Well within reason....) Sometimes kids need to ask - and it can
get very frustrating for them if they are always hearing no.

I think you or someone on this list compared the cost of these little treats
to years of adult therapy... certainly the little things win hands down ;-)


Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Article about nice babies



On Mar 18, 2006, at 7:31 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:

> It's an interesting article but the researcher could have asked a
> couple
> of unschoolers and saved himself all that time. <g>


Holly and I were at Hastings, a video/music store, last week. A
young mom with another young relative (sister/cousin/aunt maybe) was
there with a toddler. The boy was asking for candy, and sat down to
play with a pack of M&M's and then said "I want this." No response.
"I want this."

"No, you have toys in the car. That's your prize for today."

We didn't say anything to each other, just looked, but her answer to
him was some version of "no, put it down."

So the kid takes off leisurely toward the door (entrance,
unfortunately <g>), with the M&Ms.

The mom calls him back, saying come back here right now, and the kid
said "No."

She wasn't mean to him (didn't yell or spank or threaten), but she
wasn't nice to him either. Had she been nicer, he would've been
nicer. She was showing him how people act in public and he was being
just that way—ignoring her and saying no.

My kids heard a lot of "sure, okay" when they were growing up, and
"I'll help you." And they are now very helpful with each other.

Last night they were all going to a St. Patrick's Day Party. They
helped each other with planning outfits and with painting stuff on
each other. Holly did Kirby's hair greenish (it was too dark to go
really green), and they planned how to handle vehicles because Kirby
and Brett were planning to drink there. They had a couple of
possible plans so that no one who might drink would drive. It was
all very cooperative.

I was downstairs before they left and heard Holly say sharply "MARTY,
don't, I said stop it! Don't!" I listened a second to see if she
was serious, and she was, so I went up and he had already stopped
whatever it was, and they were happy again. I realized, though, that
it was the first time I've heard something like that in a long time.
Maybe two years. And true, they're 14-19, but they're also doing
things together, like going to parties.

It's 1:20 in the afternoon. Kirby and Brett stayed over at the house
where the party was. Marty and Holly came home at 4:00 a.m., but
they both set alarms to get up because phase 2 of the party is lunch
at The Olive Garden at 2:00. They had discussed Garduño's but Olive
Garden won out. Both are nice restaurants, not burger or pizza
joints They didn't ask me for money. Holly did get change for a
twenty, so she can make her contribution from her own allowance.
Kirby left at noon with a friend who's getting married in May. They
were going to the tux shop for a fitting. Kirby is a groomsman.
They made sure before they left that they knew, and those still at
the house (Marty, Holly and Brett) knew which Olive Garden and what
time.

Those are kids (except the groom, who doesn't count) who were told
"sure, okay" and "I'll help you" as babies and are happy and helpful
teens.

Sandra




"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 18, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

>
> On Mar 18, 2006, at 7:31 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:
>
>> It's an interesting article but the researcher could have asked a
>> couple
>> of unschoolers and saved himself all that time. <g>
>
>
> Holly and I were at Hastings, a video/music store, last week. A
> young mom with another young relative (sister/cousin/aunt maybe) was
> there with a toddler. The boy was asking for candy, and sat down to
> play with a pack of M&M's and then said "I want this." No response.
> "I want this."
>
> "No, you have toys in the car. That's your prize for today."
>
> We didn't say anything to each other, just looked, but her answer to
> him was some version of "no, put it down."
>
> So the kid takes off leisurely toward the door (entrance,
> unfortunately <g>), with the M&Ms.
>
> The mom calls him back, saying come back here right now, and the kid
> said "No."
>
> She wasn't mean to him (didn't yell or spank or threaten), but she
> wasn't nice to him either. Had she been nicer, he would've been
> nicer. She was showing him how people act in public and he was being
> just that way—ignoring her and saying no.
>
> My kids heard a lot of "sure, okay" when they were growing up, and
> "I'll help you." And they are now very helpful with each other.
>
> Last night they were all going to a St. Patrick's Day Party. They
> helped each other with planning outfits and with painting stuff on
> each other. Holly did Kirby's hair greenish (it was too dark to go
> really green), and they planned how to handle vehicles because Kirby
> and Brett were planning to drink there. They had a couple of
> possible plans so that no one who might drink would drive. It was
> all very cooperative.
>
> I was downstairs before they left and heard Holly say sharply "MARTY,
> don't, I said stop it! Don't!" I listened a second to see if she
> was serious, and she was, so I went up and he had already stopped
> whatever it was, and they were happy again. I realized, though, that
> it was the first time I've heard something like that in a long time.
> Maybe two years. And true, they're 14-19, but they're also doing
> things together, like going to parties.
>
> It's 1:20 in the afternoon. Kirby and Brett stayed over at the house
> where the party was. Marty and Holly came home at 4:00 a.m., but
> they both set alarms to get up because phase 2 of the party is lunch
> at The Olive Garden at 2:00. They had discussed Garduño's but Olive
> Garden won out. Both are nice restaurants, not burger or pizza
> joints They didn't ask me for money. Holly did get change for a
> twenty, so she can make her contribution from her own allowance.
> Kirby left at noon with a friend who's getting married in May. They
> were going to the tux shop for a fitting. Kirby is a groomsman.
> They made sure before they left that they knew, and those still at
> the house (Marty, Holly and Brett) knew which Olive Garden and what
> time.
>
> Those are kids (except the groom, who doesn't count) who were told
> "sure, okay" and "I'll help you" as babies and are happy and helpful
> teens.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://
> www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

Marty, Holly and Brett just came back from the group's lunch at Olive
Garden. I heard them, but haven't seen them and they don't know I
heard them. They came in laughing, stopped to talk to Keith who's
working in the garage, and Marty was laughing and telling them about
some mishap he had getting into the front door with his to-go box
(the wind is blowing hard). Then Marty started singing "When I'm
home everything seems to be right..." (A Hard Day's Night, by The
Beatles... just that one line; he's got a good singing voice).

Now they're in Kirby's room, right up above me, talking about
something on MySpace, something happy and interesting. They're all
animated and talkative.

They don't know I know they're home, so they're certainly not doing
any of that for my benefit or to receive a good report on
UnschoolingDiscussion.<bwg> They're just honestly nice, happy kids.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 18, 2006, at 4:14 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

>
> On Mar 18, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:


DOH!!!! I wrote nothing. Very, very sorry. Shot a blank WITH whole
post attached. Sheeesh... Sorry sorry sorry. So I should say
something more interesting while I'm in here....

Well.....

I have some new site things listed here:
http://sandradodd.com/blog
and am working on this:
http://sandradodd.com/robyncoburn
and
http://sandradodd.com/conferences

Ah...
Actual info. Now I feel redeemed.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

Sandra Dodd wrote:

>
> http://sandradodd.com/robyncoburn


Oh, yay, yay, yay! Jumping up and down, doing the happy dance.

I'm *so* overjoyed to see this page! All of Robyn's sage nuggets in one
place (well, not *all* of them because there were *lots*, but a good
many of them). I have been thinking for a while this needed to be done
and kept hoping she'd create a webspace. Thank you Sandra!

Robyn, you have such an incredible way of cutting through to the really
crucial points of an issue. I'm so glad to see this collection!

--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 19, 2006, at 6:57 AM, Danielle Conger wrote:

> I have been thinking for a while this needed to be done
> and kept hoping she'd create a webspace.


She still might! And if she does I'll put up a big link to it. <bwg>


Sandra

Mary Beth

My name is Mary Beth and I have been a silent member of the group, but
so enjoy all the nurturing family life stories. My four kids are ages
10-21 and get along very well together. They have common interests,
such as Japanese anime, video games, and drawing and often spend time
together. They share spaces and resources without a problem.

My oldest son saw my daughters listening to an iPod, each with one
earplug, and went out and bought them a splitter so they could each
have a full pair. He also provided them with a lot of music. And, he
is teaching my daughter how to make a website. My two sons, 18 and
21, share friends and often go places together or make purchases of
electronics together. I really love it when my 18yo son, 16yo
daughter, and 10yo daughter retreat to the girls' rooms to listen to
music and draw for the evening. Sometimes, my 10yo daughter will play
videogames with her 18yo brother and they have a great time. My 16yo
daughter and 10yo daughter share interest in ballet and will often
talk ballet together or watch ballet videos or even practice together.

Sometimes, my husband and I will hear them all chatting and laughing
together and my husband will laughingly say, "This has got to stop!"
We have had strangers at restaurants tell us that they enjoy seeing
how our kids get along together.

Just wanted to say that I attribute this all to being homeschooled as
they have grown together instead of apart.

Mary Beth

sandy lubert

Hi Marybeth (and Welcome, Kathy!) -

Wrt the connection between home/unschooling and "sibling harmony" (as
opposed to "rivalry")...

I just spent 6 weeks in Florida with my 3 boys (7,9,11). We stayed in
relatively close quarters with my mother (83) and her 90 year-old
partner, who is fairly conservative. Needless to say, I was a bit
apprehensive about how all of this would go down (they'd never really
seen our "unschooling life" up close).

Anyway, it was all fine. BUT they were absolutely blown away by (and
kept commenting on) my boys' ability to get along, the fact that all 3
played together for hours, the relative absence of bickering, etc.

Then, we spent several days with friends in Orlando (more boys, more
unschoolers) and again, the five kids just played so beautifully
together and were consistently respectful of each other.

It seems to me that so much of what they're learning as unschoolers is
the "true grit" of living: communication, interaction, observation,
exploration, etc...and it shows!

Like you all were saying in the thread about hiring: "Gimme an
unschooler any day!"

Cheers,
Sandy

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< Robyn, you have such an incredible way of cutting through to the
really
crucial points of an issue. I'm so glad to see this collection! >>>>

<<< She still might! And if she does I'll put up a big link to it. >>>

Aww, shucks you guys...

Most if the time I feel like I such a beginner on this journey. Remarkably
enough I still get a lot out of re-reading my old posts, refreshing my
memory about strategies that I am developing for my tool box.

Luckily for me Jayn continues to be both forgiving and a great teacher (heh,
heh) The other day she told me that she "couldn't listen to her heart and my
voice at the same time so I shouldn't tell her what to do when she was going
wild". It was very profound to me. She suggested that I write it down and
keep it where I could see it.

Robyn L. Coburn

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.5/284 - Release Date: 3/17/2006

s.waynforth

Robyn Coburn wrote:
> Luckily for me Jayn continues to be both forgiving and a great teacher (heh,
> heh) The other day she told me that she "couldn't listen to her heart and my
> voice at the same time so I shouldn't tell her what to do when she was going
> wild". It was very profound to me. She suggested that I write it down and
> keep it where I could see it.

What fantastic advice!

Schuyler

Sandra Dodd

>
> Robyn Coburn wrote:
>> Luckily for me Jayn continues to be both forgiving and a great
>> teacher (heh,
>> heh) The other day she told me that she "couldn't listen to her
>> heart and my
>> voice at the same time so I shouldn't tell her what to do when she
>> was going
>> wild". It was very profound to me. She suggested that I write it
>> down and
>> keep it where I could see it.
>
> What fantastic advice!
>
> Schuyler


It really is good. I added it here: http://sandradodd.com/peace/robyn

Last night Holly and I had a little moment. She wanted to buy a salt
lick, but not a big cow salt lick. It's for a joke gift for one of
Kirby's friends, who likes a lot of salt on his food, and who told
Holly sure, he'd be her best friend. I told her they sold smaller
salt licks for deer, and I looked them up on the internet. I wanted
to buy one, but she said I had told her I would take her to a feed
store, and she wanted to do that because she liked me to drive her
around.

Our last two shopping trips have ended badly, with Holly wanting to
go home. For all her joy at clothing, she doesn't like shopping for
clothes. Or rather she can look a long time but doesn't like
dressing rooms at all, so after one trip to the dressing room she
wants to come back. But this is worse. We don't live near feed
stores. We'll have to go ten or fifteen miles, and I don't know if
they'll have deer licks, and there they were—four kinds, four lbs.,
less than $6.00 each—all I had to do was click "yes and charge my
paypal account," basically. But she was saying no, let's go to
feedstores.

But nobody yelled or cried. And she said "I had a picture in my mind
of what was going to happen, and my mind picture got jealous."
That's a pretty good way to describe an irrational frustration. She
wants to buy her own salt lick. She wants to SEE salt licks. She
wants me to take her to do it, not for me to click and wait for the
mail next week.

We might end up ordering it by mail anyway, or we might find a ten
pound one somewhere that's a good compromise. And honestly, I wanted
to get some birdseed and the feedstore's a good place for that. So I
said today when we're out for the orthodontist I'll take her to a
feedstore.

All in all, I was being worse than she was. I was taking her project
away from her just because it was more convenient for her. But I had
never realized that her explanation clarified why I get mad at Keith
sometimes, when he wants to change a plan without asking me or
persuading me that his way is really better. My mind picture gets
jealous.

Sandra

Betsy Hill

**

But nobody yelled or cried. And she said "I had a picture in my mind
of what was going to happen, and my mind picture got jealous."**

(Linking this back to clothes shopping...)


I think in particular it's a great description of how I feel trying on clothes in dressing rooms! It's a bummer when how you imagine the garment is widely discrepant from how it really looks.

I remember hearing that some online merchants (particularly Lands End) have visual simulations that show how their clothes look on someone with your measurements. (Being extra extra large, I never tried it myself.) It could be fun to mess with, if it isn't too slow. (On their website)

I had a disappointing experience at Target on Friday. Their "fitted" T-shirts were much smaller than I expected, and the nice striped shirts, in what should be my size, wouldn't button over my chest. I think I'm the same size as I was last year, so I think the baggy look has been replaced by tighter cuts and it is confusing.

Betsy

PS I remember when I was 12 (younger than Holly) growing out of some of my favorite clothes (psychadelic Nehru jacket) when I would have loved to keep them.

Katy Jennings

<Sandra@...> wrote:
>

> Last night Holly and I had a little moment. She wanted to buy a
salt lick, but not a big cow salt lick. It's for a joke gift for
one of Kirby's friends, who likes a lot of salt on his food, and who
told Holly sure, he'd be her best friend. I told her they sold
smaller salt licks for deer, and I looked them up on the internet. >>

They sell even smaller ones for guinea pigs. I had piggies when I
was 12-15 or so. The salt licks for them are round, about 3 inches
across, and have a hole in them to tie them to the cage. There are
white ones (all salt) and brown ones (salt plus other minerals). It
would be fun to put one on a hemp cord or something as a necklace
for the salt lover. They have them at pet stores, maybe Walmart
too, the feed store is probably more fun though.

Ok, done hijacking Holly's ideas...

Katy J. in Southern NM
(also a salt lover)

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 22, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Katy Jennings wrote:

> They sell even smaller ones for guinea pigs. I had piggies when I
> was 12-15 or so. The salt licks for them are round, about 3 inches
> across, and have a hole in them to tie them to the cage. There are
> white ones (all salt) and brown ones (salt plus other minerals). It
> would be fun to put one on a hemp cord or something as a necklace
> for the salt lover. They have them at pet stores, maybe Walmart
> too, the feed store is probably more fun though.

Oh thanks! She already found one at the feed store. It was on the
aisle with wild bird seed and such. Maybe it was for rabbits? It
has a groove down the sides, so I guess there's a holder created for it.

I'll let her know about the miniature wearable ones! Thanks.

Sandra