Andrea Roher

My husband and I have been pondering off and on the idea of taking in
foster children. I've always felt a draw to help out teens, and those
in the foster care system are especially needy.

So, why post this here? I'm trying to determine to what extent
radical unschooling concepts might be able to apply to children in the
foster care system (who most likely will be required by law to attend
school). Is there any way to "radically unschool" a child who's
involuntarily in the public school system? Would a compromise of some
sort between the two be better for the child or worse?

Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with this or has any
ideas to add.

-----
Andrea L. Roher
-aka- Evenstar(@...)
Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one day
at a time.
Maybe I've finally found it... in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com

camden

"My husband and I have been pondering off and on the idea of taking in
foster children. I've always felt a draw to help out teens, and those
in the foster care system are especially needy.

So, why post this here? I'm trying to determine to what extent
radical unschooling concepts might be able to apply to children in the
foster care system (who most likely will be required by law to attend
school). Is there any way to "radically unschool" a child who's
involuntarily in the public school system? Would a compromise of some
sort between the two be better for the child or worse?"


We are former foster parents who adopted all 5 of our foster children. In Maine you are not even allowed to homeschool a foster child. They don't look at what is best for the kids, just what they think is "right". Its the old - its my way or the highway.

If you would like more info or just to chat you can email me off list.

Carol


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 28, 2006, at 12:22 PM, Andrea Roher wrote:

> So, why post this here? I'm trying to determine to what extent
> radical unschooling concepts might be able to apply to children in the
> foster care system (who most likely will be required by law to attend
> school).

--------------------
None at all. You'll screw the kids up for the next people who keep
them. They will have been so controlled and so arbitrarily run
around that if you gave them an inch they would take a mile, and
maybe your computer, most likely. You would be required to follow
the social workers' recommendations. And where would your own
children be in all of this?

I was one of two children. My parents took in one cousin a year
older than I am, and then another one a year older than my sister a
year later. It wasn't a great situation, and those were cousins with
us permanently, not temporarily.

-=-Is there any way to "radically unschool" a child who's
involuntarily in the public school system? -=-

No, especially when it's not your child, and you're under government
supervision.

-=-Would a compromise of some
sort between the two be better for the child or worse?-=-

I think it would be cruel to bring a foster child into an unschooling
home, so that not only does she have to go to school, but she knows
fully that others don't have to. She would have homework when others
didn't. She would have to get up and leave in the cold while others
stayed in bed.

I wouldn't do it.

Sandra

Pamela Sorooshian

Grace Llewellyn, who wrote, "The Teenage Liberation Handbook," has
another book called: "Guerilla Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real
Education With or Without School."

I think that would be really useful to you.

-pam

On Jan 28, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Andrea Roher wrote:

>
> Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with this or has any
> ideas to add.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nanette Marie Hallman

When we were foster parents in Florida, the kids HAD to attend public school. We were getting ready to foster to adopt here in Indiana, but now that we are home schooling, I don't want to take on the extra responsibility.

Nanette


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen and David Gehrke

Andrea,
I did a lot of foster care of teenagers before I was
radically unschooling. I am positive they would make
the kids be part of the public school system, unless
you did kids who had already left the school system
and did it as an Independent Living Mentor. That is
help kids develop the skills they need to live
independently, which is a load of crap since as humans
we all live interdependently, but that is another
story. In retrospect I used a lot of unschooling
philosophy and thought for my teen foster care. I
listened and helped them chose and follow there
interest. I helped them chose and set goal and
assisted them in achieving those goals, and respected
them and encouraged when their plan did not work, or
their interests changed. I did not impose boundaries
as they had already had people controlling the crap
out of them and forgetting to respect them and really
hear them. I never to my knowledge had a child in
foster care steal or intentionally hurt me in a
financial or emotional way.
I agree with Sandra that it may be a real challenge to
have a kid that had to go to school live in an
unschooling home. That is one of the reasons I do no
foster care at all now.
However I have many really cool young adults that I
was fortunate enough to be part of their lives when
they were extremely in need of someone to hear them.
They bring their babies and their hubbies to visit me.
I can for certain say that foster care was some of the
finest most important work I ever did in my life.
Feel free to write me off list if you plan to pursue.
Kathleen



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Barb Lundgren

Andrea,

I've done much volunteer work with foster kids and families. While radical
unschooling is darn near impossible, given the stringent requirements for
education the state requires, there is still much you can do to enlighten
the child, the adults involved in his life, and even the state. I've found
all foster kids to be starving for attention and the attention a respectful,
nurturing adult can give such a child is monumental. It will affect their
life forever, and yours too. Go for it! Take one day at a time and know
that you are making a big difference in the way that child will see the
world. It is a job with many frustrations, anger and bureaucratic
bewilderment and it can seem overwhelming at times, but there is much to
learn. I have come to see that all children are born equal: full of
vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love, intelligence. It is a world of abuse
brought on by adults in the form of parents, school teachers and others that
neglect and thwart the child's bright spirit that makes one dull, mediocre,
depressed, helpless.

barb.lundgren@...

"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe


From: Andrea Roher <evenstar75@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:22:52 -0500
To: Unschooling Discussion <[email protected]>
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Foster Care


My husband and I have been pondering off and on the idea of taking in
foster children. I've always felt a draw to help out teens, and those
in the foster care system are especially needy.

So, why post this here? I'm trying to determine to what extent
radical unschooling concepts might be able to apply to children in the
foster care system (who most likely will be required by law to attend
school). Is there any way to "radically unschool" a child who's
involuntarily in the public school system? Would a compromise of some
sort between the two be better for the child or worse?

Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with this or has any
ideas to add.

-----
Andrea L. Roher
-aka- Evenstar(@...)
Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one day
at a time.
Maybe I've finally found it... in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com




"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 28, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:

> I've done much volunteer work with foster kids and families.

Have you had foster kids in your home?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 28, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:


-=-I have come to see that all children are born equal: full of
vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love, intelligence. -=-

So you don't believe in genetics at all?
Do you think all that stuff Howard Gardner writes about is wrong?


Sandra

Barb Lundgren

I have never been a foster parent. I have worked long hours with CASA,
(http://www.speakupforachild.org) and come to know and spend much time with
kids in foster care, their parents, foster parents, child protective service
employees and legal experts of all kinds.

Barb
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...

"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe


From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:05:25 -0700
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Foster Care



On Jan 28, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:

> I've done much volunteer work with foster kids and families.

Have you had foster kids in your home?

Sandra


"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barb Lundgren

Sure, I believe in genetics. I believe we are born with predispositions
toward personality types, abilities in a wide range of things, and
developmental differences of all sorts (not to mention health-related).
Nothing about such predispositions negates what I have come to believe:
all children are full of vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love,
intelligence. I see these characteristics as drive-related, not indications
of specific interests or abilities in something.

Barb
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...

"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe


From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:05:57 -0700
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "equality" (was Foster Care)



On Jan 28, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:


-=-I have come to see that all children are born equal: full of
vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love, intelligence. -=-

So you don't believe in genetics at all?
Do you think all that stuff Howard Gardner writes about is wrong?


Sandra




"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@S...
> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 28, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:
>
>
> -=-I have come to see that all children are born equal: full of
> vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love, intelligence. -=-
>
> So you don't believe in genetics at all?
> Do you think all that stuff Howard Gardner writes about is wrong?
>
>
> Sandra
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Barb didn't say they were born with all that stuff in equal
quantities, just that they were born equal and all had those
qualities. :)

Dawn

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 29, 2006, at 10:31 AM, Barb Lundgren wrote:

> Nothing about such predispositions negates what I have come to
> believe:
> all children are full of vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love,
> intelligence.

For those thinking of fostering or adopting, it is important to be
realistic. It is nice to say how all children are filled with all
those positive traits - but not true.

Children are not always born full of vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity,
love, or intelligence.

Some are born screaming in pain because of drug addiction withdrawal.
Some are born with severe fetal alcohol syndrome. Many are born with
neurological damage because of their biological mother smoking,
drinking, poor eating, drug use during pregnancy. They may also have
genetic problems that will show up later - schizophrenia, for
example, often begins in late teen/young adult years and has a strong
genetic component.

Those who foster and/or adopt need to know what they might be getting
into and especially what they might be getting their other children
into. There are big risks. I'm very very grateful to those who do
take on otherwise unwanted children and give them the best life they
can. I especially admire those who don't have biological children of
their own and choose to foster and adopt. But there are children who
suffer because their parents chose to bring other children into the
home who seriously disrupt their lives.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barb Lundgren

It's true that "Some are born screaming in pain because of drug addiction
withdrawal.
Some are born with severe fetal alcohol syndrome. Many are born with
neurological damage because of their biological mother smoking,
drinking, poor eating, drug use during pregnancy." This doesn't mean they
came in wanting to be this way, or that this pain lasts forever. It does
subside with care and such children become very healthy, active, etc.
Surely you aren't suggesting that they are forever damaged and can never
experience curiosity, intelligence, the need to love and be loved?


E-mail: barb.lundgren@...

"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe


From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 12:28:23 -0800
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "equality" (was Foster Care)



On Jan 29, 2006, at 10:31 AM, Barb Lundgren wrote:

> Nothing about such predispositions negates what I have come to
> believe:
> all children are full of vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love,
> intelligence.

For those thinking of fostering or adopting, it is important to be
realistic. It is nice to say how all children are filled with all
those positive traits - but not true.

Children are not always born full of vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity,
love, or intelligence.

Some are born screaming in pain because of drug addiction withdrawal.
Some are born with severe fetal alcohol syndrome. Many are born with
neurological damage because of their biological mother smoking,
drinking, poor eating, drug use during pregnancy. They may also have
genetic problems that will show up later - schizophrenia, for
example, often begins in late teen/young adult years and has a strong
genetic component.

Those who foster and/or adopt need to know what they might be getting
into and especially what they might be getting their other children
into. There are big risks. I'm very very grateful to those who do
take on otherwise unwanted children and give them the best life they
can. I especially admire those who don't have biological children of
their own and choose to foster and adopt. But there are children who
suffer because their parents chose to bring other children into the
home who seriously disrupt their lives.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

--- In [email protected], Andrea Roher
<evenstar75@g...> wrote:
>>> My husband and I have been pondering off and on the idea of
taking in foster children. I've always felt a draw to help out
teens, and those in the foster care system are especially needy.>>>>


Hi Andrea,

You would be doing a great service to children if you decided to
become a foster parent. There is a need, in every state for families
to foster. Have you checked into it yet?

My three spent 4 years in foster care before we adopted them.
Although they were in seperate foster homes the first year, they
were reunited in one foster home for the remaining three years.
Their foster parents were wonderful people who helped them through a
lot of rejection, hurt and trauma. I am forever grateful to them for
going above and beyond with my children. Our adoption was finalized
two years ago and we have kept in contact with them throughout. We
see them a couple of times a year and they've become extended family
to us.


>>>>I'm trying to determine to what extent radical unschooling
concepts might be able to apply to children in the foster care
system (who most likely will be required by law to attend school).
Is there any way to "radically unschool" a child who's involuntarily
in the public school system? Would a compromise of some sort
between the two be better for the child or worse?>>>>>

They would have to stay in school until they were adopted. I don't
know of a single state that allows foster or pre-adoptive parents to
home/unschool the children.

Even if you could, a lot would depend on the child. Unschooling is
about trust and trust takes time to be established. This is
something we deal with regarding my oldest. He is unschooled,
meaning he doesn't do school (he's deschooing, defostering, healing)
but it's very, very difficult to extend that freedom into other
areas because of the amount of trust on both sides (us for him and
him for us).
Many children in foster care (including my oldest two) have Reactive
Attachment Disorder. If you're going to foster, you should get
yourself familiar with it.

Anyway....good for you for wanting to do this. My children are proof
that caring adults can turn a childs life around.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/

Andrea Roher

I am enjoying the discussion my question seems to have fostered. I
realize that school as such would be a necessity. I was more curious
as to how the blend of freedom at home with required schooling would
work. At that I was not at all considering the fact that I have a
child (and may have more) of my own who would be treated differently.
However the point as to jealousy and strain on the family from the
differing standards makes sense.

At the moment it's just something we're considering, we're by no means
commited to the concept, so I think it's worth evaluating how it may
be problematic before going a whole lot further.

On 1/29/06, Barb Lundgren <barb.lundgren@...> wrote:
>
> I have never been a foster parent. I have worked long hours with CASA,
> (http://www.speakupforachild.org) and come to know and spend much time with
> kids in foster care, their parents, foster parents, child protective service
> employees and legal experts of all kinds.
>
> Barb
> E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
>
> "Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
> has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
>
>
> From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:05:25 -0700
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Foster Care
>
>
>
> On Jan 28, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:
>
> > I've done much volunteer work with foster kids and families.
>
> Have you had foster kids in your home?
>
> Sandra
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> <http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
-----
Andrea L. Roher
-aka- Evenstar(@...)
Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one day
at a time.
Maybe I've finally found it... in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com

Pamela Sorooshian

Pam:
> It's true that "Some are born screaming in pain because of drug
> addiction
> withdrawal.
> Some are born with severe fetal alcohol syndrome. Many are born with
> neurological damage because of their biological mother smoking,
> drinking, poor eating, drug use during pregnancy."

Barb:
> This doesn't mean they came in wanting to be this way, or that this
> pain lasts forever.

Of course they didn't want to be this way. But the damage can, in
fact, last forever. No matter how much we wish that wasn't true.


> It does subside with care and such children become very healthy,
> active, etc.

That is a STRONG statement. SUCH children become? As if that is
always true? I know it isn't.

Their problems often subside with care and sometimes they even become
very healthy, active, etc. (not sure what the "etc." includes.)

> Surely you aren't suggesting that they are forever damaged and can
> never experience curiosity, intelligence, the need to love and be
> loved?

Barb, you said: "all children are full of vitality, enthusiasm,
curiosity, love, intelligence."

I've known, very very well, people who fostered and even adopted kids
- they were sure that if they gave them a great family life, lots of
love, they would be able to undo the damage of fetal alcohol
syndrome, for example. Not so. A lifetime of difficulty and heartache
is what they did get. And the adopted children's siblings have
continued to have to deal with the problems into their own adulthoods.

I'm not saying people shouldn't do it - but that so many people go
into it with such unrealistic ideas - assuming that all children are
full of vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love, intelligence - and all
they need is a little loving care. Those here who have fostered/
adopted kids know the truth - Reactive Attachment Disorder is
extremely intractable - and living with a child who isn't trusting or
trustworthy is very difficult. Again - I appreciate and admire those
who do it. I know some of the heartache and hardship they face. And i
don't think those considering it should impose the risks on their
other children - at least wait until they are grown.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>>>But the damage can, in fact, last forever. No matter how much we
wish that wasn't true.>>>>>

Yes, this is true of my oldest. He has come a long way but he will
never be 100% healed or emotionally or mentally healthy.

>>>>>>I've known, very very well, people who fostered and even
adopted kids - they were sure that if they gave them a great family
life, lots of love, they would be able to undo the damage of fetal
alcohol syndrome, for example. Not so. A lifetime of difficulty and
heartache is what they did get.>>>>>

I know people like that also and it's shame. Children who were
abused need a certain type of parent. A parent who is naive enough
to think love will conquer all, is not what these kids need. Love is
part of it, but love comes later, after healing.

>>>>Again - I appreciate and admire those who do it. I know some of
the heartache and hardship they face. And i don't think those
considering it should impose the risks on their other children - at
least wait until they are grown.>>>>>

A prospective foster or adoptive parent should not take in kids that
are older than the ones already living in the home. No matter what
the agency tells you, I think it's a bad idea.
Children who have been abused, may abuse others and if you have
younger children, they may not be able to defend themselves against
them.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/

Joanne

--- In [email protected], Barb Lundgren
<barb.lundgren@c...> wrote:
>>>>This doesn't mean they came in wanting to be this way, or that this
pain lasts forever. It does subside with care and such children
become very healthy, active, etc. Surely you aren't suggesting that
they are forever damaged and can never experience curiosity,
intelligence, the need to love and be loved?>>>>>>

This is true of my middle child, Shawna. She came to us a very angry,
controlling, manipulative and abusive person. Her road to healing is
long and painful but she's a strong girl and her need for love and a
family is so great that she's overcome a lot of emotional issues to get
where she is today. She still struggles with certain issues but she
moves forward every day.

Then there are children like my oldest, Cimion. He has such a thick
wall around his heart and he is determined to use whatever means he has
to not let anyone love him. He wil do whatever it takes to keep us away
from his heart. Unlike Shawna, when Cimion takes 2 steps back, he
follows it with 50 more backwards steps. The sad thing is he is so
sneaky and lies about everything but there's no need to with us. He
doesn't see that yet...he may never.

This is such an interesting conversation because it is our reality.
Thank you to the original person who started it and to those who have
participated.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/

Barb Lundgren

You might try locating a foster parent group in your area and meet with them
several times to listen to their stories, etc. In the real world, foster
parents are as "normal" as mainstream parents, which means they believe in
alot of structure, discipline, time-outs, rule following, etc. A kid
needing maximum TLC won't due as well in such homes.

Barb

E-mail: barb.lundgren@...

"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe


From: Andrea Roher <evenstar75@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:46:35 -0500
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Foster Care


I am enjoying the discussion my question seems to have fostered. I
realize that school as such would be a necessity. I was more curious
as to how the blend of freedom at home with required schooling would
work. At that I was not at all considering the fact that I have a
child (and may have more) of my own who would be treated differently.
However the point as to jealousy and strain on the family from the
differing standards makes sense.

At the moment it's just something we're considering, we're by no means
commited to the concept, so I think it's worth evaluating how it may
be problematic before going a whole lot further.

On 1/29/06, Barb Lundgren <barb.lundgren@...> wrote:
>
> I have never been a foster parent. I have worked long hours with CASA,
> (http://www.speakupforachild.org) and come to know and spend much time with
> kids in foster care, their parents, foster parents, child protective service
> employees and legal experts of all kinds.
>
> Barb
> E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
>
> "Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
> has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
>
>
> From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:05:25 -0700
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Foster Care
>
>
>
> On Jan 28, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:
>
> > I've done much volunteer work with foster kids and families.
>
> Have you had foster kids in your home?
>
> Sandra
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> <http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
-----
Andrea L. Roher
-aka- Evenstar(@...)
Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one day
at a time.
Maybe I've finally found it... in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com


"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freasabird2003

I would have to agree with Sandra on this one...unless those children
you take in as foster children are legally free for adoption and you
are intending to adopt them as your own. I am providing a very
relaxed homeschooling (could actually be identified as unschooling,
I'm sure)for my children who began as foster children in my home and
I went on to adopt. There are some caseworkers who will actually
agree to "home"schooling, as even some of the most fundamental
caseworkers do recognize that some (I say MOST) children don't do
well within the public school system.....and this is even more likely
with those kiddos who have been bounced around from family to family
and school to school. My 8 yr old who had only spent 2 yrs in public
school has adapted extremely well to unschooling, whereas the older
one who attended a combination of private, public, and eclectic
schooling for nearly 11 years, is having a more difficult time with
the concept of unschooling....but she is "getting" it too! If only I
could have "caught" her sooner, she wouldn't be going through some of
the stuff she has....but still better later than never at all.
And I am in it for the long haul for these kiddos who are in my home;
they are mine now.
To reiterate again though, unless these kiddos aren't going to be
with you for the long haul (as in: the rest of their lives), I have
to agree with Sandra: it will only mess them up for their next "stop"
on their life journey.
Best wishes to you. Feel free to email me off list if you desire.
Namaste`
Wilda and dds 18, 12, 8 in VA

-- In [email protected], Andrea Roher
<evenstar75@g...> wrote:
>
> I am enjoying the discussion my question seems to have fostered. I
> realize that school as such would be a necessity. I was more
curious
> as to how the blend of freedom at home with required schooling would
> work. At that I was not at all considering the fact that I have a
> child (and may have more) of my own who would be treated
differently.
> However the point as to jealousy and strain on the family from the
> differing standards makes sense.
>
> At the moment it's just something we're considering, we're by no
means
> commited to the concept, so I think it's worth evaluating how it may
> be problematic before going a whole lot further.
>
> On 1/29/06, Barb Lundgren <barb.lundgren@c...> wrote:
> >
> > I have never been a foster parent. I have worked long hours with
CASA,
> > (http://www.speakupforachild.org) and come to know and spend much
time with
> > kids in foster care, their parents, foster parents, child
protective service
> > employees and legal experts of all kinds.
> >
> > Barb
> > E-mail: barb.lundgren@c...
> >
> > "Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
> > has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
> >
> >
> > From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@S...>
> > Reply-To: [email protected]
> > Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:05:25 -0700
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Foster Care
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 28, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:
> >
> > > I've done much volunteer work with foster kids and families.
> >
> > Have you had foster kids in your home?
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > <http://www.unschooling.info>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> -----
> Andrea L. Roher
> -aka- Evenstar(@...)
> Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one
day
> at a time.
> Maybe I've finally found it... in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
> Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com
>

Barb Lundgren

I don't believe in using words like never and always, for anything, and that
certainly applies to this discussion of what kids come into this world like.
If this is a semantic discussion, let's end it.

Barb

E-mail: barb.lundgren@...

"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe


From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:01:24 -0800
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "equality" (was Foster Care)



Pam:
> It's true that "Some are born screaming in pain because of drug
> addiction
> withdrawal.
> Some are born with severe fetal alcohol syndrome. Many are born with
> neurological damage because of their biological mother smoking,
> drinking, poor eating, drug use during pregnancy."

Barb:
> This doesn't mean they came in wanting to be this way, or that this
> pain lasts forever.

Of course they didn't want to be this way. But the damage can, in
fact, last forever. No matter how much we wish that wasn't true.


> It does subside with care and such children become very healthy,
> active, etc.

That is a STRONG statement. SUCH children become? As if that is
always true? I know it isn't.

Their problems often subside with care and sometimes they even become
very healthy, active, etc. (not sure what the "etc." includes.)

> Surely you aren't suggesting that they are forever damaged and can
> never experience curiosity, intelligence, the need to love and be
> loved?

Barb, you said: "all children are full of vitality, enthusiasm,
curiosity, love, intelligence."

I've known, very very well, people who fostered and even adopted kids
- they were sure that if they gave them a great family life, lots of
love, they would be able to undo the damage of fetal alcohol
syndrome, for example. Not so. A lifetime of difficulty and heartache
is what they did get. And the adopted children's siblings have
continued to have to deal with the problems into their own adulthoods.

I'm not saying people shouldn't do it - but that so many people go
into it with such unrealistic ideas - assuming that all children are
full of vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love, intelligence - and all
they need is a little loving care. Those here who have fostered/
adopted kids know the truth - Reactive Attachment Disorder is
extremely intractable - and living with a child who isn't trusting or
trustworthy is very difficult. Again - I appreciate and admire those
who do it. I know some of the heartache and hardship they face. And i
don't think those considering it should impose the risks on their
other children - at least wait until they are grown.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

--- In [email protected], Kathleen and David
Gehrke <gehrkes@y...> wrote:
>
> Andrea,
> I did a lot of foster care of teenagers before I was
> radically unschooling. I am positive they would make
> the kids be part of the public school system, unless
> you did kids who had already left the school system
> and did it as an Independent Living Mentor.

I think this is really dependant on what state you live in. I had
assumed that a foster child (and even maybe an adoptive child before
finalization)would automatically have to go to school. But i was
told by an adoption social worker that here in Michigan, pre-
adoptive AND foster children can be homeschooled. I wasnt expecting
that! So i think a potential foster parent who homeschools should at
least ask before assuming. Also, it might be worth it to find out if
a "virtual" public school would satisfy the school requirement,
since often kids who are part of a virtual school are technically
considered enrolled in public school, even though the schooling is
at home.


Katherine

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 29, 2006, at 1:45 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:

> Surely you aren't suggesting that they are forever damaged and can
> never
> experience curiosity, intelligence, the need to love and be loved?


Fetal Alcohol Syndrome seems to be forever.

Some people have much more curiosity than others, even within the
same family.

"Intelligence" is a much-abused word.

The need to be loved is pretty universal. The ability to love in
return is lacking in some more than others.

Sandra

Barb Lundgren

I am not naive enough to think that love and nurturing can cure all that
ails one, but it can open doors that have never been cracked before.
Wherever that leads varies from one person to another. There is no such
thing as a perfect person or ideal qualities in a person. We all struggle
with challenges in our lifetimes, and the damage done to a child who has
been abused has his own unique set of challenges. It's a mistake to draw
conclusions from fear or from the experiences of others. I had my children
born at home, despite everyone around me telling me how dangerous it was and
what a big mistake I was making. I nursed them on demand despite those who
were certain they would be spoiled. I did not immunize them despite the
horror stories of the diseases they would get. I unschool despite the lack
of family support and community (no longer true, but was in the beginning).
I do think it's important to listen to your instincts, follow your heart and
do what you think is right, not what someone else tells you to do.

Barb

E-mail: barb.lundgren@...

"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe


From: "Joanne" <billyandjoanne@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:17:02 -0000
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: "equality" (was Foster Care)


--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>>>But the damage can, in fact, last forever. No matter how much we
wish that wasn't true.>>>>>

Yes, this is true of my oldest. He has come a long way but he will
never be 100% healed or emotionally or mentally healthy.

>>>>>>I've known, very very well, people who fostered and even
adopted kids - they were sure that if they gave them a great family
life, lots of love, they would be able to undo the damage of fetal
alcohol syndrome, for example. Not so. A lifetime of difficulty and
heartache is what they did get.>>>>>

I know people like that also and it's shame. Children who were
abused need a certain type of parent. A parent who is naive enough
to think love will conquer all, is not what these kids need. Love is
part of it, but love comes later, after healing.

>>>>Again - I appreciate and admire those who do it. I know some of
the heartache and hardship they face. And i don't think those
considering it should impose the risks on their other children - at
least wait until they are grown.>>>>>

A prospective foster or adoptive parent should not take in kids that
are older than the ones already living in the home. No matter what
the agency tells you, I think it's a bad idea.
Children who have been abused, may abuse others and if you have
younger children, they may not be able to defend themselves against
them.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/









"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

>
> They would have to stay in school until they were adopted. I don't
> know of a single state that allows foster or pre-adoptive parents
>to home/unschool the children.

I was told last spring by an adoptive social worker that michigan
allows this(i didnt mention unschooling, since that is just a form of
homeschooling. If they allow homeschooling they should allow
unschooling.) This was at a "Kinship Festival" designed to find homes
for available kids. She said it wasnt a problem at all, and said to me
that "even foster kids can be homeschooled in Michigan." I was
suprised and really excited about it.


Katherine

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 29, 2006, at 2:35 PM, queenjane555 wrote:

> Also, it might be worth it to find out if
> a "virtual" public school would satisfy the school requirement,
> since often kids who are part of a virtual school are technically
> considered enrolled in public school, even though the schooling is
> at home.

People homeschool foster kids here, in California, sometimes. We
don't have homeschooling - we are private schools - very small, very
elite, and very very private schools. So sometimes people just enroll
their foster kids in their own private school and nobody objects.

I have a neighbor who takes in LOTS of foster kids (way too many, in
my opinion, because she has seven kids of her own and some are still
toddlers - the oldest is 19). She homeschools all her bio kids up to
high school (then they go to the local catholic high school). She
doesn't always homeschool the foster kids - depends on the services
they are getting at the public school. But she has homeschooled many
of them.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Resending - didn't go through for some reason:


In a message dated 1/29/2006 12:17:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

>>One thing about foster care, is there has often been physical damage
or other issues at play you might not know about. My brother had FAS,
something that happens in the womb and sometimes no amount of nurture
can overcome that.
I think RU has the best chance for helping those children heal though.
My brother got the whole Ritalyn, schooling crap and whether or not
that's a cause, it sure was a contributing factor in his life
today...which is all about prison at this point.<<

We are foster parents, and have adopted 3 of our foster kids, and are in the
process of getting full custody of our 10 yo foster daughter. The first boy
we adopted had/has FAS and RAD. It was a big struggle at first, but the one
thing that probably made the BIGGEST difference was pulling him out of
school as soon as the adoption was final. It lifted this huge weight off of him
and us. He just couldn't handle the stifling environment and needed freedom.
He was always in trouble at school, it was awful. We know he will never be
"normal" but he has come so incredibly far. He's a very happy, busy kid.
His biggest joy is untangling things, finding things no one else can seem to
locate, and "fixing" things.

The other two boys had "learning disabilities." Since we took them out of
school, that has changed, though one still struggles to read. They blossomed
once taken out of school.

At this time, our two foster children are not bothered that they have to go
to school and the others get to stay home. They do their homework if the
want to, wear what they want to, go to sleep when they're tired, and do a good
job ot if. Our oldest foster son is about to turn 18, and will go to live
with family. So soon, we won't have to live by the school's schedule, as when
we get full custody, we'll be able to take her out of school. For the
meantime, she's OK with it. She has been in horrible situations, including almost a
year in hospitalization, so live in our home has been the most stable thing
in her life, probably since she was born.

I think a radical unschooling family can be wonderful for children who've
been in foster care. They've lived with so many rules, so much "system" that
giving them a lot of freedom to make mistakes and grow from them gives them a
chance to have a little control over their own world, something they've not
had in the past. They were either controlled by abuse, or neglect, or the
system.

Something else: I've noticed through the years, that many of these kids
don't "make it" in strict, Christian or Fundamentalist homes. We go to Church
(Mass), but our kids have a lot of freedom, they can have their own interests,
watch most movies, dress the way they want. To look at our home you would
never think we're religious. In that way, the unschooling/relaxed lifestyle
has helped these kids tremendously.

>>>If I were going to choose foster care or adoption, I would be sure to
only get children that were younger than my own children. Messing up
the whole birth order thing ended up being really a difficult dynamic
in our family.<<<<

I have to second this. I would never recommend taking in a child older than
your youngest. The only reason we had the 17 yo is because we had known him
a long time before he was in our home, and we knew his issues were very
minimal, and he still has a good relationship with his father. Still, it was
probably not the best choice, and I'd never do it again. I just wouldn't bring
a teen into my home, you just never know.

I think Sandra did have a point. To have a child for years and years who
has to go to school while the rest of the family is having a ball, could be
cruel. But with us, we were always open to adoption so there was a light at the
end of the tunnel for our kids. After our 10 yo girl, we don't plan on
adopting any more, so we are not going to foster. Sending children from home to
home is the most damaging thing foster care does to kids, so I really suggest
only doing it if you're in it for the long haul.

Nancy B.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 29, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:

> I don't believe in using words like never and always, for anything,
> and that
> certainly applies to this discussion of what kids come into this
> world like.
> If this is a semantic discussion, let's end it.


"> Nothing about such predispositions negates what I have come to
> believe:
> all children are full of vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love,
> intelligence."


The word "nothing" is as unqualified as "never" and "always."

The word "all" is as unqualified as "always."


Words are all we have on this list. Use them carefully.

Readers DO and must just take what they need and leave the rest.
Someone came for information about foster children, and the advice
was varied. That's great.

Any idea sent to this list is sent with the understanding that it is
open for dissection and those who post cannot control where the idea
goes once it's out there. Anyone for whom it's news that that's
the deal needs to review the posting guidelines which are in a file
at yahoogroups and also here:

http://sandradodd.com/lists/info
Here are a few that seem applicable:

2 Expect your beliefs to be challenged. Welcome this as an
opportunity to critically examine your own ideas.


4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to
public examination, don't post it to the list.

5. Before you hit "send," consider whether your post will contribute
positively to the unschooling discussion or help people understand
unschooling better.



Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 29, 2006, at 2:33 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:

> I don't believe in using words like never and always, for anything,
> and that
> certainly applies to this discussion of what kids come into this
> world like.
> If this is a semantic discussion, let's end it.


You did say: "all children are full of vitality, enthusiasm,
curiosity, love, intelligence."

Now you say you don't believe in using words like never and always --
so I assume you don't believe in using words like "all?" But you did
and that's what I responded to.

We have to assume people mean what they say - words are all we have
here. I know sometimes that people are surprised by what others
"hear" in their words. Happens to me, sometimes, and it is good
insight to look back and see what I said that caused someone
responded as they did.

I heard an extreme statement that, in my experience, is not at all
true. There are many reasons why children end up in foster care - and
it is really sad, but often they do have serious and somewhat
permanent problems that the most wonderful loving home in the world
can't repair. I don't think it is a good idea for anybody to go into
fostering or adopting thinking that all children are full of
vitality, enthusiasm, curiosity, love, and intelligence.

But - back to unschooling foster kids. A friend of mine who fosters
lots of different kids - she does short-term care while kids are in
between other placements - actually does keep the kids out of school,
usually, and she doesn't push academics on them during that time.
She's not an unschooler - not with her own kids. But she thinks that
during that relatively short (sometimes 3 weeks, sometimes 3 months)
time that she has the kids that academics can be let go while she
helps them sort through what is happening to them, let them have a
respite from the massive stress they've usually already been living,
have at least a brief period to be treated well.


-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]