beanmommy2

I was wondering how much your little ones could/do/did as far as
picking up after themselves, and what might be reasonable at what age.

I have been reading a lot about families, even unschoolers, who say
their three year olds help set the table every day and their two year
olds always bring their plates over to the sink after eating.
I'm starting to worry that I'm not expecting or asking enough out of
my kids.

Am I being lazy by often picking up my kids' toys and clothes for
them, or doing it with them? Are my expectations for what my kids are
capable of too low?

Thanks for any insight,
Jenny

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 24, 2006, at 5:14 PM, beanmommy2 wrote:

> I have been reading a lot about families, even unschoolers, who say
> their three year olds help set the table every day and their two year
> olds always bring their plates over to the sink after eating.

1) For every 2 year old carrying plates to the sink there's tens of
thousands who aren't ;-) But you don't hear the moms of kids who
aren't doing it mentioning that they aren't.

2) At 2 or 3 kids often get a kick out of being competent at things
bigger people do. The novelty of it wears off.

3) You can often train kids to do as they're told. The fundamentalist
Christians have lots of books on such things. It involves convincing
the kid they should be terrified not to do what you tell them. Is
that the kind of relationship you want?

> Am I being lazy by often picking up my kids' toys and clothes for
> them, or doing it with them? Are my expectations for what my kids are
> capable of too low?

Depends what kind of relationship you want with them. If you want to
be their partner, you're going to work against that by making them do
things they don't understand and aren't competent at.

Kids can't understand in the way adults do why things need to be put
away so basically it's similar to your husband making you scrub the
ceiling every week.

Kids aren't as competent at organizing as it seems they are. If you
look at the worst mess in your house and then magnify it by 10 rooms
that might be approaching what a kid sees when they see a pile of
toys. It isn't important and it's overwhelming.

There's lots of stuff about chores at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

and at Sandra Dodd's website:

http://sandradodd.com/chores

Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elizabeth roberts

Jenny,

My 2 year old does take her plate to the sink after a meal, but not always. She's just heard me ask..pretty much every night..for everyone to do so. Usually it's just a "hey guys, let's not forget to take our plates to the sink when we're done." Overall my children are pretty good about cleaning up. Oh..I will say this, pretty much without fail, Gracie empties her "pee-pot" when she uses her potty chair. She just does it, but she hasn't been asked to!

We don't require any chores around here, but I'm constantly saying "Please help me pick up" and we've had talks about how we all live here, and it's up to all of us to help keep the house looking nice. Sometimes they aren't in the mood to help. Sometimes I'm not in the mood to BE helped! But I think we do pretty good.

I don't think you're being lazy to pick up after them at all.

Beth, N C

beanmommy2 <beanmommy2@...> wrote:
I was wondering how much your little ones could/do/did as far as
picking up after themselves, and what might be reasonable at what age.




Sing, Dance, Laugh...LOVE!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christy Mahoney

I wouldn't be too happy if my family "expected" me to do everything
that I'm actually capable of doing. I'm able to clean the bathroom,
but I am certainly not doing it every day or even every week.

> Am I being lazy by often picking up my kids' toys and clothes for
> them, or doing it with them? Are my expectations for what my kids
are
> capable of too low?

S Drag-teine

My son is 5 1/2 yo and my daughter is 13 m most of what gets accomplished
around the house is achieved together. We sort the laundry - one picks the
color and then we race around the house finding that color of clothing, he
helps me put them in, take them out, fold (well he hands them to me and
helps keep his sister away from the folded laundry).



He vacuums. I have a little Shark Vac that is just his size and he thinks it
is fun but if he doesn't want to do it then I do it.



He washes dishes - though only gets to do the none breakables and makes a
huge water mess that leads to us washing the kitchen floor.



He takes dishes left in the living room to the kitchen (though usually just
to keep them away from his sister) and when reminded he takes his own and
puts them in the sink or the table or the counter.



He plays "Treasurer Hunter" with a flashlight and cleans out from under the
sofas in the living room.



When he has an accident in his pants he cleans or when he makes a mess he at
least helps.



Now this has been a progression of games and offers (on his side). He is a
very helpful child and loves cleaning but it is like everything else you
teach your child. He has to have a need or desire to learn and you can't
expect him to know how to do it the right way or to want to do it your way.

Shannon

~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~

I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.

Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.

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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of beanmommy2
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Little ones helping out?



I was wondering how much your little ones could/do/did as far as
picking up after themselves, and what might be reasonable at what age.

I have been reading a lot about families, even unschoolers, who say
their three year olds help set the table every day and their two year
olds always bring their plates over to the sink after eating.
I'm starting to worry that I'm not expecting or asking enough out of
my kids.

Am I being lazy by often picking up my kids' toys and clothes for
them, or doing it with them? Are my expectations for what my kids are
capable of too low?

Thanks for any insight,
Jenny








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Sandra Dodd

-=- I don't think you're being lazy to pick up after them at all. -=-

I agree.

I'm guessing the original question was whether it would be better to
"take the trouble" to try to force a child, or train a child, to "do
housework."
Let them figure it out gradually.
That's how unschooling works with reading, and math, and science and
history.
That's how unschooling can work with all kinds of learning.

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 24, 2006, at 7:04 PM, Christy Mahoney wrote:

> I wouldn't be too happy if my family "expected" me to do everything
> that I'm actually capable of doing.

-------------------

Very good point.

The expectation that kids will do what they're capable of doing
reminds me of the heartbreak MANY kids experience when they "learn to
read." They learn to read "Hop on Pop" so the parents stop reading
to them. There's an ocean between one-syllable "reading" of books
with only 27 words and what parents could read to a child, but many
thousands of kids (probably millions) have been cut off cold when
they learn to read. It's almost a punishment. Add that to the long
list of why pressing reading is bad, and why expecting kids to read
as soon as possible (while parents are not being analytical about
what reading really is) will cause more trouble than good.

And so with housework. If a child shows that he can pick up dirty
clothes and put them in a basket, has he earned the total loss of his
mother's help from there on out?
When he makes his first messy peanut butter and jelly sandwich, is he
doomed to have to make his own from then on?

Don't do that to your kids.

I can pump gas, but I don't expect to *have* to do it until Keith
can't do it for me anymore.
Keith can do laundry, but he doesn't expect to *have* to, because I
do it better and more happily than he does.

Marty is capable of doing his laundry, but I do it for him so he has
more time to hang out with friends and play video games. He learns
more from doing that than he would from doing laundry. This
afternoon Holly and I went and bought him a black wool cap and a
thermal shirt, because he was cold at work today, and is getting a
sore throat and a cough. I paid for those things. It's for his job,
and I *could* have told him to buy them, or to pay me back. But he's
learning from having that job, and it's good exercise, and these are
clothes he'll wear when he's not at work too, and I don't see why he
should have to pay EVERYthing now just because he has a job.

Tomorrow he will be warmer.

Years from now he will more calmly and generously go out and get
something for someone else without feeling martyrly or put-upon or
taken-advantage-of, because he will think that's just how people
should be, and just how parents should be, and just how friends
should be.

I didn't send him the bill financially OR emotionally or socially.
He looks good in that hat. He will get well more easily, being warm.

I also made a chicken and green chile casserole because I thought
that would help him get well. I also heated the hot tub for him, and
he was in the hot tub when Holly and I went to buy him clothes.

All that is a bigger version of helping a toddler put dishes in the
sink, and helping a young child pick up laundry, and clean her room.

I don't feel the least bit lazy.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/24/2006 6:08:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:

> Kids aren't as competent at organizing as it seems they are. If you
> look at the worst mess in your house and then magnify it by 10 rooms
> that might be approaching what a kid sees when they see a pile of
> toys. It isn't important and it's overwhelming.
>

Yikes. That's huge-and it helps me see from my son's point of view. *Now* I
know why he thanked me the other day for working on cleaning up his room!!
Thank you.

Peace,
Sang


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Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 24, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> If you
> look at the worst mess in your house and then magnify it by 10 rooms
> that might be approaching what a kid sees when they see a pile of
> toys. It isn't important and it's overwhelming.

It isn't important?

I just reread that and had no idea what I meant ;-) But I think I
meant they're looking at a pile of stuff mom wants picked up and it's
overwhelming and they have no clue why it's important to mom. It just
seems ridiculous to do something so difficult that makes no sense.

(But maybe others understood me better than I did.)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Subject: Little ones helping out?

<<I was wondering how much your little ones could/do/did as far as
picking up after themselves, and what might be reasonable at what age.
I have been reading a lot about families, even unschoolers, who say
their three year olds help set the table every day and their two year
olds always bring their plates over to the sink after eating.
I'm starting to worry that I'm not expecting or asking enough out of
my kids. >>
I know people that have children like this and the process it took for them
to get there is not even close to unschooling. Every day? Oh boy!
Not that I am anti helping I just don't see it as a priority to keep
repeating "put your plate in the sink" for days or weeks. Sure my kids have been
known to put their plates in the sink including my 22 mo old but I don't think I
have ever asked them to.

My 6 yr old sets the table here and there but it's her choice and she likes
to pretend she's serving. This week she created a menu for my husband and I
for our anniversary. She worked on it for a few days including setting the
table and she asked for flowers when we went shopping. If I made a table
clearing/setting a rule I doubt she would have created the dining out atmosphere,
bothered to create a menu or even come close to the time she spent on making
our day special. She also knows that we respect her as an important member and
part of our anniversary celebration. When we celebrate or wedding date we
have made a tradition of including all the kids weather we go to a hotel or dine
out they come. I've had people comment but in the end my husband and I get
the time we need alone and that day was after all the day our daughter was
created (TMI but a conversation in our home the past few weeks "How did you and
daddy make me?") Sorry got off track....:)

******************************************************************************
**********

<Am I being lazy by often picking up my kids' toys and clothes for
them, or doing it with them? >>>


My house is jam packed full of toys including outside and often something
needs stepping over. Heck Monday Nicholas (3) was riding a bike from the tv room
to his bedroom (his room that he doesn't sleep in so additional room full
of toys:). The squeak of that little radio flyer bike and the toys he kept
running into or knocking over was distracting as I was on the phone with a new
unschool mom and trying to listen.. When I got off the phone he was working on
his bike and using the rear tire as a launch for whatever little item he
could find. I thought for a second about the mess he made but then was more
impressed with his creativity. Cameron (22mo) held the dust pan (his new phase of
growth and independence) while I swept and he walked to the kitchen to dump.
It was a bit of a wait while he was going back and forth but after all it's
why I unschool. They are learning by living and those are happier ways to get
things done for us :) My house isn't as tidy as it could be but I don't put
clutter before fun bc I know I will get to it and I do..

I pick up clothes for everyone equally including my husband..
Your not being lazy (let those feelings of pressure go) you are placing more
value in life than nagging and that's wonderful!
******************************************************************************
************
<<<<Are my expectations for what my kids are
capable of too low?

Thanks for any insight,
Jenny>>

I don't know that I would even use the word expectation as it (to me) sounds
too close to *rule,failure or even comparing to another for equality and
balance... That's too much pressure and less flow of who you and they are.

Laura


Southern Maine Unschoolers
Site:http://www.southernmaineunschoolers.com
List:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingMaine


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beanmommy2

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@S...> wrote:

> I'm guessing the original question was whether it would be better
to
> "take the trouble" to try to force a child, or train a child,
to "do
> housework."

Yes, partly that, but more like wondering if I should just be
involving them more, asking them more, instead of going ahead and
doing it myself.

I nearly passed out the other day when I read an article where the
woman said she had a three year old and one year old who, every day
set the table for each meal, washed the kitchen floor, cleaned the
windows, and took out the trash, and the two kids just LOVED to do
it, it was the highlight of their day, and her house was so nice and
clean thanks to them!

I thought, Geez, is that even possible for two kids that young to
handle all that??

I was afraid maybe I was getting the attitude of, "Well, you can't
handle this or do it right, so I'll take care of it" when maybe I
shouldn't.

Thanks for the responses.

Jenny

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 25, 2006, at 7:20 AM, beanmommy2 wrote:

> I thought, Geez, is that even possible for two kids that young to
> handle all that??

When someone's toddler washes windows, don't picture a professional
window cleaning job on the whole house.

"Handle all that" seems to imply completion of the task.

If a child wants to set the table, that doesn't mean the child should
be a waiter at a hotel.

There are kid-degrees of things.

But if a child is MADE to wash windows or set tables, he will learn
to avoid it unless he's being required to function.

Holly (14 now) likes to put the silverware away. She does it
cheerfully and more than once a day. She doesn't like to put the
other dishes away. That's fine. Holly used to like to mop the
floor. She quit liking it. Bummer for me, but had I ever once
"made" her do it, it would have turned it to a punishment, a chore.
It isn't.

-=-I was afraid maybe I was getting the attitude of, "Well, you can't
handle this or do it right, so I'll take care of it" when maybe I
shouldn't.
-=-

It's not an all or nothing deal. If they help sometimes, that's
good. If you make it seem fun, they're more likely to want to hang
around where you are, and even by watching they will learn how to do
it. If you make it pleasant for them to be around you, they might
voluntarily help. Maybe not this year, and possibly never, but if
they do and it's voluntary, that's something ZERO parents who enforce
chores will ever experience.

Sandra

Deb

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@S...> wrote:
> It's not an all or nothing deal. If they help sometimes, that's
> good. If you make it seem fun, they're more likely to want to hang
> around where you are, and even by watching they will learn how to
>do
> it. If you make it pleasant for them to be around you, they might
> voluntarily help. Maybe not this year, and possibly never, but if
> they do and it's voluntary, that's something ZERO parents who
>enforce
> chores will ever experience.
>
> Sandra
>
Example: if I'm sitting on the bed folding clothes with a movie on and
DS is playing nearby, checking out the movie, and generally be-bopping
along, he's more likely to respond positively when I ask "Hey can you
put this stack of socks in Daddy's drawer when you get a chance?" than
if I said "You have to help put away the laundry". He'll find a break
in the action and take care of it and maybe come back for more things
to put away. Or maybe not. I might end up done with the folding before
he finds a break and I'll take care of it - without "Oh alright I'll
just do it myself sheesh sigh mumblemumble..." (or at least I'm trying
really hard to not do that - I'm much better now)

--Deb

Danielle Conger

beanmommy2 wrote:

> I was wondering how much your little ones could/do/did as far as
> picking up after themselves, and what might be reasonable at what age.
>
> I have been reading a lot about families, even unschoolers, who say
> their three year olds help set the table every day and their two year
> olds always bring their plates over to the sink after eating.
> I'm starting to worry that I'm not expecting or asking enough out of
> my kids.

Well, there are loads of unschooling parents of little ones on the
AlwaysUnschooled list, and no one I know of is writing anything remotely
close to that, so maybe you need to change your company. ;)

Each of my kids does different things at different times and to
different extents and all of it is welcomed when it comes.

Recently, the girls have been into helping me cook. The other day, they
chopped potatoes and onions (Em learned about chopping onions and plans
on choosing potatoes next time! *g*), they've been scrambling their own
eggs, making their own oatmeal (Em showed Sam how to do his), chopping
and steaming vegetables and helping make pasta and rice. They certainly
don't do this every time I cook, but I always welcome them when they
ask. For a long time, they liked helping make pizza dough, cookies and
bread, but then they got bored with that.

Just this weekend, I asked the girls to help me in their room, which had
become *very* messy and completely un-navigable--pretty much everything
in there was on the floor. I asked them to let me know when they were
ready to tackle it. Jules decided she was ready at some point in the
afternoon and came and got me, but Em didn't feel ready. I asked her if
she felt like sitting on her bed and keeping us company, which she did.
I did much of the work, which I usually do, but Jules helped a lot,
which she usually does and Em ran a few errands here and there--taking
cups to the sink and dirty clothes to the laundry. I ended up diving
into lots of their bins and asking them to help me sort through stuff
they no longer wanted. We also reworked their clothes baskets to create
more room--really an all day affair.

At the end of the day, I asked them to do me the favor of keeping the
floor cleaned up until tomorrow so I could run a vacuum. They asked why
I didn't just run the vacuum now, so I told them I needed to get Sam's
room cleaned up first and just didn't have the energy. They were fine
with that, and we went about our evening--dinner, playing and finally
curled up in our room to watch a movie and fall asleep.

As everyone else was falling asleep, Em, my nightowl, got up and cleaned
and organized her brother's room (a much more straight-forward job than
their room!). It was a gift to him and a gift to me--all freely given. I
doubt she would have felt so generous if I'd made her clean her room
with us earlier that day because it was *her* room, and I'm not sure she
would have thought to do it if I hadn't been modeling that kind of
generosity for her most of her life. Maybe she would have, I don't
really know. But, I do know this is what happened in our home this past
weekend, and I know that it's not an unusual thing to have happen. So, I
figure we're doing something right.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

Krisula Moyer

>>>They learn to read "Hop on Pop" so the parents stop reading

to them. There's an ocean between one-syllable "reading" of books

with only 27 words and what parents could read to a child, but many

thousands of kids (probably millions) have been cut off cold when

they learn to read. It's almost a punishment. <<<

Reminds me of the kids at the park who don't want to learn how to pump
themselves on the swing because they know that when they do mom will stop
pushing them. This morning I was watching Malcolm in theMiddle with my dd
and the next to youngest "Dewey" says "Growing up is just a big crock.
Every day you get a little bit older and they expect you to do more and they
love you less." or something like that. Mom's reply was," No Dewey, that's
just this family."

Krisula



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I'm glad that when my two were younger I didn't insist on chores or that they
HAVE to do this or that. I'm glad we all did (and do) daily living activities
together. I'm glad that when they sat with me watching tv and folding laundry
that I didn't insist that things be done a certain way. Even though I do have
a specific way to fold things. <g> I'm glad that a quick vacuum of the living
room rug or washing the dishes isn't a huge deal. I'm happy that cleaning the
bathroom isn't dreaded. I don't think it was lazy of me to pick up after the
kids, or that I was making them lazy. I didn't *create* lazy or resentful
kids. Both have things they don't like or enjoy doing, but don't we all! I'm
glad that Darin and I fostered a healthy, respectful attitude about helping
and pulling together and family.

I've been having a few problems as I near the end of my pregnancy. I'm on
orders from my Dr. to rest as much as possible, and taking medication for my
heart. It's hard, especially with Darin on the road. He's got Jack with him,
so its just Moly and me. I know that if, when Moly was younger, I had insisted
on chores and the rest that now she could be resentful about doing extra
things for me. But she doesn't mind doing the laundry and I can still fold it
sitting in bed or on the couch. Last weekend Darin was home and we put a chair
in the kitchen for me and he helped me make up a few meals that I split into
smaller portions and now Moly doesn't have to cook, just thaw and warm. And
she appreciates that. And even though I really shouldn't get up and drive her
places I still do. It doesn't take much out of me to drive her to her drum
lessons or to her youth group activities. She appreciates that and shows it
with the little things she does around the house for me. She has been unsure
and almost standoffish about the whole baby thing, and Darin and I could have
made my need to rest worse. We could have said 'Mom can't do this so you have
to'. I believe that since we've never said anything like that before and
didn't say that now, she isn't looking at helping out more now as a chore or a
burden. She may be unsure about the baby, but she doesn't resent the baby, her
Dad, or me. She has grown to appreciate what I've always done for her and the
rest of the family and knows that the appreciation runs both ways. Especially
now.

I know from friends experiences with their kids and my own feelings toward my
parents that creating an adversial relationship about chores (or anything
between children and parents) can and does come back to bite you in the ass.
You always have a choice. Helping your children, showing them, guiding them,
respecting them, acknowledging their abilities... it all goes a long way
toward family harmony. And isn't that the goal in the long run?
~Nancy






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