[email protected]

Does anyone have a link for radical unschool with a comparison to what
differs in unschooling? Or could we discuss what other see as differences in the
two?


Laura



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<< Does anyone have a link for radical unschool with a comparison to what

differs in unschooling? Or could we discuss what other see as differences
in the two? >>>>

I wrote this recently:

<<<< Generally for the purposes of discussion on these lists unschooling is
trusting that you children can and will learn all the academic skills and
information that need to live fully without enforced lessons - the "not
doing school" part. The parents' job is to create the environment, both
physical and mental, wherein interests and passions can be discovered and
facilitated.

Radical Unschooling is extending that Trust to all areas of your whole life,
living by general Principles such as Honesty, Kindness, Respect, Acceptance,
Generosity instead of having rules, chores, required behaviors, punishments
of any sort. It is about building relationships, respecting children as
autonomous beings and creating an environment where the freedom to make real
choices is fostered and individual preferences honored as much as possible
within real practical constraints (as opposed to having some kind of
behavioral control agenda). >>>>

I'm not sure what you mean by "link" here. To an essay or article? To an
unschooling e-list that is not RU?

Here's something else that I wrote once on AU - maybe something useful here
for you:

<<<When someone, usually a newbie or “considering it” individual comes to
these lists and wants a definition of unschooling, part of the purpose is to
not sound too terrifying, not to create a yawning black vortex of the
unknown right off the bat. Couching the definition in terms of what
unschooling is “not” academically is the simplest first step to explaining,
and allows the ideas to have the hook of the normal to hang on initially.
The oft made recommendations of being gradual in change are designed for the
comfort and ease of the children, even more so than the parents.

It is when the descriptions and explanations of what unschooling *is* and
how it works start coming, that many people seem to retreat into the
familiar. They want to continue to use the word “Consequences”
euphemistically for punishments. They want to continue to consider
Principles as merely Rules restated gently, rather than a life altering
methodology. They want to continue to be comfortable in the standardized
research about child development and behavior – all based essentially on how
to keep kids “doing better” in school and manipulate them into acting
certain approved ways – instead of looking at their own children as
outstandingly unique individuals. Sometimes they want to continue to take
credit for their normal children’s normal accomplishments – like they
“taught their baby to walk and talk”. So they ask, nervously or defiantly,
“But isn’t unschooling really just simply not doing school? Aren’t I still
an unschooler if I’m not a radical unschooler?”

Long time Unschoolers answer reassuringly, “Well, yes *technically*, in
terms of a dictionary style definition, it is possible to only unschool
academics”. I have long had the sneaking suspicion that the cognoscenti are
metaphorically winking at each other and grinning behind their hands. They
already understand that the overwhelming experience and practice of people
who are posting (can’t speak about people who never post), is that over time
almost everyone ends up extending the philosophies and practices (more or
less) towards “Whole Life Unschooling”, a phrase I like to use sometimes
because it is both more descriptive, and may sound gentler than “Radical
Unschooling”. At least the ones who confide about the greatest level of
happiness and wonder in their lives have made, and are living, that
extension. >>>>>

Robyn L. Coburn

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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Does anyone have a link for radical unschool with a comparison to what
differs in unschooling? Or could we discuss what other see as differences in
the two?
-=-=-=-=-

There's been a lot written about the differences---and Robyn just included something she has written.

If it's still not clear and you have questions, sure, we can discuss it more.

So, where are you stuck?

~KellyKelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laura

>
> There's been a lot written about the differences---and Robyn just
included something she has written.
>
> If it's still not clear and you have questions, sure, we can discuss
it more.
>
> So, where are you stuck?
>
> ~KellyKelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling
Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org >>

***************************************************************

I'm not stuck..Well in a way, I just need something to help wrap
around. I can't see how radical unschooling and unschooling differ in
the sense of school at home and discipline. Neither philosophy as I
understand it include these.....

An email was sent to me last night saying that unschoolers do what is
best for their family (including math,discipline etc) while radical
unschoolers like me (my name was used) have a dogmatic approach to
unschooling as a radical. Dogmatic bc I have been seeking to be clear
that my understanding of unschooling is not whatever floats your boat
relaxed homeschooling/discipline focused parenting.



Laura
SouthernMaineUnschoolers.com

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< An email was sent to me last night saying that unschoolers do what is
best for their family (including math,discipline etc) while radical
unschoolers like me (my name was used) have a dogmatic approach to
unschooling as a radical. Dogmatic bc I have been seeking to be clear
that my understanding of unschooling is not whatever floats your boat
relaxed homeschooling/discipline focused parenting. >>>>

So you were privately flamed by someone too cowardly to put their insulting
views here, and back them up with sane argument and real experiences.

People do tend to get defensive when they realize that we RU'ers are
demonstrating that pretty much everything they feel called to "insist on" or
attempt to "ensure" - and almost every fight they have with their children -
is unnecessary at best, counter productive at worst. Hence the offensive
implication that we are placing some dogma ahead of what is "best for our
families".

I'm sorry you were targeted like that. Getting information and opinions
about Unschooling from people who are hostile to the concepts is a little
like asking for a description of the philosophies and practices of Wicca
from Jerry Falwell. The results are likely to somewhat skewed.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Robyn Coburn

<<<< An email was sent to me last night saying that unschoolers do what is
best for their family (including math,discipline etc) while radical
unschoolers like me (my name was used) have a dogmatic approach to
unschooling as a radical. Dogmatic bc I have been seeking to be clear
that my understanding of unschooling is not whatever floats your boat
relaxed homeschooling/discipline focused parenting. >>>>

Oh Laura, I forgot to add that if you want to forward the two paragraphs
about the difference between academic unschooling and RU to the other
person, assuming they are not subscribers here, if it will help, please feel
free to do so. I like to think those words offer a positive take on both
positions.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Deb

--- In [email protected], "Laura" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> I'm not stuck..Well in a way, I just need something to help wrap
> around. I can't see how radical unschooling and unschooling differ
>in
> the sense of school at home and discipline. Neither philosophy as >I
> understand it include these.....
'unschooling' and 'radical unschooling' are by and large the same when
you are talking in the realm of 'academics' or school like issues.
Where things start to diverge is that some folks stop at the
academics - life looks exactly the same everywhere else in terms of
parental rules and structures, discipline aka punishment (time outs,
spankings, removing privileges or possessions, etc), 'times'
(mealtime, bedtime, bathtime, etc), and such. Other folks take the
trust developed in that academic area and extend it to the rest of
life. If Joan can set her own path (with my guidance and facilitation
as needed) in learning what she needs for her life goals, then I also
trust that (with my guidance and facilitation as needed) she can make
her own choices about what and when to eat, when and how long to
sleep, and so on...it spreads to all of life (thus a common
phrase 'whole life unschooling' - maybe using that phrase could help
you 'wrap around' the idea?). And some folks come at it from the other
direction - they start out trusting their babies to eat, sleep, and
develop/learn in their own unique ways and don't see any reason to
stop trusting that once the child reaches 'school age'. Here again
it's trust extending over all of life.

Since I've mostly focused on the academic side of things (and some
general things) above I'd like to touch on this:

"... sense of school at home and discipline. Neither philosophy as I
understand it include these..... "

Depends on what you mean by 'discipline'. If you mean a person who is
following another's instructions, seeking to be like a respected other
person (becoming a disciple in the denotational sense, not the
religious context) or one who is setting themselves to accomplish a
goal and doing whatever is required (hours of physical training for
example as in a 'disciplined athlete'), then that is very much a part
of unschooling and radical unschooling (whole life unschooling) - each
person directs their course. If by discipline you are referring to a
system of rules with punishments and rewards designed to mold or
modify behavior to someone else's standards, then I'd say that
unschooling (in the academic only sense) might or might not include
this. Whole life unschooling most assuredly is moving away from this.
Here's a wonderful article http://sandradodd.com/benrules on Rules vs
Principles which might apply in this context (and there's a link at
the bottom to more on the subject).

--Deb

Laura

Thank you. This is what I was seeking.
Do you have this on a site or can I use this?

I am seeking a gentler way to put the information out there without
getting threatened by angry people who don't want to be corrected.

Laura
Southernmaineunschoolers.com

***************************************************************
<<Here's something else that I wrote once on AU - maybe something
useful here
for you:

<<<When someone, usually a newbie or "considering it" individual
comes to
these lists and wants a definition of unschooling, part of the
purpose is to
not sound too terrifying, not to create a yawning black vortex of the
unknown right off the bat. Couching the definition in terms of what
unschooling is "not" academically is the simplest first step to
explaining,
and allows the ideas to have the hook of the normal to hang on
initially.
The oft made recommendations of being gradual in change are designed
for the
comfort and ease of the children, even more so than the parents.

It is when the descriptions and explanations of what unschooling *is*
and
how it works start coming, that many people seem to retreat into the
familiar. They want to continue to use the word "Consequences"
euphemistically for punishments. They want to continue to consider
Principles as merely Rules restated gently, rather than a life
altering
methodology. They want to continue to be comfortable in the
standardized
research about child development and behavior – all based essentially
on how
to keep kids "doing better" in school and manipulate them into acting
certain approved ways – instead of looking at their own children as
outstandingly unique individuals. Sometimes they want to continue to
take
credit for their normal children's normal accomplishments – like they
"taught their baby to walk and talk". So they ask, nervously or
defiantly,
"But isn't unschooling really just simply not doing school? Aren't I
still
an unschooler if I'm not a radical unschooler?"

Long time Unschoolers answer reassuringly, "Well, yes *technically*,
in
terms of a dictionary style definition, it is possible to only
unschool
academics". I have long had the sneaking suspicion that the
cognoscenti are
metaphorically winking at each other and grinning behind their hands.
They
already understand that the overwhelming experience and practice of
people
who are posting (can't speak about people who never post), is that
over time
almost everyone ends up extending the philosophies and practices
(more or
less) towards "Whole Life Unschooling", a phrase I like to use
sometimes
because it is both more descriptive, and may sound gentler
than "Radical
Unschooling". At least the ones who confide about the greatest level
of
happiness and wonder in their lives have made, and are living, that
extension. >>>>>

Robyn L. Coburn>>


Robyn Coburn

<<<< Thank you. This is what I was seeking.
Do you have this on a site or can I use this?

I am seeking a gentler way to put the information out there without
getting threatened by angry people who don't want to be corrected. >>>>

We have been cross posting! :)

TBH I'm concerned that people who are not RU might see these paras from AU
as being unnecessarily combative. I wrote those with the assumption that the
readers were interested in moving towards RU or already RU at the time,
rather than with a wider audience in mind. I would be sorry if someone took
my remarks about "people retreating to the familiar" as support for their
notion that we were dogmatic.

However if you still feel it would be helpful I guess I can cope with a
small bunch of people I don't know in Southern Maine (?? - my assumption)
thinking I'm an asshole. ;)

Robyn L. Coburn

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Laura

<<However if you still feel it would be helpful I guess I can cope
with a
small bunch of people I don't know in Southern Maine (?? - my
assumption)
thinking I'm an asshole. ;)>
**************************************************************
rofl!

Well there are 60+ on my list and less than 20 on theirs and 289 on
NEU your odds are good that a good 269 wont think your an asshole ;)~

You have a good point. I posted these:

Radical unschooling - Unschooling are they the same?

Removing the school and adding the f(un) to parenting

Below are two good reads if your new to unschooling or getting to the
philosophy.

Three stages of unschooling
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/stages


Living by Principles instead of by Rules
http://sandradodd.com/benrules


Laura
Southern Maine Unschoolers
Southernmaineunschoolers.com

camden

"Well there are 60+ on my list and less than 20 on theirs and 289 on
NEU your odds are good that a good 269 wont think your an asshole ;)"


Robyn,
As one of those on Laura's list ...... I agree. I love reading your stuff & I don't think your an asshole either !! :)
Carol


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 12, 2006, at 9:37 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> Does anyone have a link for radical unschool with a comparison to what
> differs in unschooling? Or could we discuss what other see as
> differences in the
> two?

I don't think there are just two.

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 12, 2006, at 11:13 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

> They
> already understand that the overwhelming experience and practice of
> people
> who are posting (can�t speak about people who never post), is that
> over time
> almost everyone ends up extending the philosophies and practices
> (more or
> less) towards �Whole Life Unschooling�

===========================

I think the majority of people end up putting their children in school.

The majority of people who keep reading these lists and really
examining what they're doing and why end up extending the
philolosophies into other parts of their lives.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 13, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Laura wrote:

> I can't see how radical unschooling and unschooling differ in
> the sense of school at home and discipline.

----------------------------------

I don't really understand this.

-=-An email was sent to me last night saying that unschoolers do what is
best for their family (including math,discipline etc) while radical
unschoolers like me (my name was used) have a dogmatic approach to
unschooling as a radical. Dogmatic bc I have been seeking to be clear
that my understanding of unschooling is not whatever floats your boat
relaxed homeschooling/discipline focused parenting.-=-

Discussions about what is and what isn't unschooling are similar to
discussions about what is and is not "real Christianity."

I think if someone reads what's at Joyce's page, and mine, and if
that seems true and useful, i cool!
Those who read those things and think it's crazy, and can't begin to
understand it, will miss out on a fantastic opportunity.
That's what I think.

I'm sorry someone badmouthed you by name in public. That sucks. But
it doesn't make your kids' lives less great, does it?

Sandra