motherbear49

I have been homeschooling my children for years --- they are happy and
learning - really learning, not memorizing -- what they need to learn.
I know that in my heart, but I am weary of people saying to me --- "so
if they were in school what grade would they be in?"--- "my son is in
"excellerated learning" What is that? something like speed reading?
Guess I am weary of being looked upon as a negligent mother!
I work full time as single mother and i thin they beliee my children
get a part time education!

I see their children, I have been to their homes, their children swear
and talk back, and it is looked at as funny --- (thank you "The
Simpsons" and the like) they watch movies that I, as an adult, would
not watch.(r rated!) So they are getting A's from a flawed system. In
my opinion.
I believe that if you bring your children up knowing quality they will
recognize "ugly" in an instant! So far that is true.
Just weary today. Thanks for listening.

Kathleen

cachitter

I'm questioning a lot about "talking back." My husband hears some of
the things i let slide (i consider them self-expression and don't
take them all personally) and thinks our 4 and 6 yr old are being
disrespectful. If they were adults, i might think so, but i don't
demand the same language i'd expect from an adult. They're not using
insults, just saying "NO!" and being short with me at times when
they're frustrated. In the meantime, I'm working with them to reduce
their frustration by giving them more choice. What do people
consider "talking back?"
Carol



--- In [email protected], "motherbear49"
<motherbear49@y...> wrote:
>
> I have been homeschooling my children for years --- they are happy
and
> learning - really learning, not memorizing -- what they need to
learn.
> I know that in my heart, but I am weary of people saying to me ---
"so
> if they were in school what grade would they be in?"--- "my son is
in
> "excellerated learning" What is that? something like speed reading?
> Guess I am weary of being looked upon as a negligent mother!
> I work full time as single mother and i thin they beliee my children
> get a part time education!
>
> I see their children, I have been to their homes, their children
swear
> and talk back, and it is looked at as funny --- (thank you "The
> Simpsons" and the like) they watch movies that I, as an adult, would
> not watch.(r rated!) So they are getting A's from a flawed system.
In
> my opinion.
> I believe that if you bring your children up knowing quality they
will
> recognize "ugly" in an instant! So far that is true.
> Just weary today. Thanks for listening.
>
> Kathleen
>

homeschoolcrew6

Kathleen
I hear ya! The struggles of listening to "those" people are what has
stopped my progress as far as deschooling SO MANY TIMES! I am so iffed
when I walk away from conversations that include all of what you stated
and also many more that I end up spending the evening second guessing
my descions...not second guessing homeschooling, but unschooling. I
detest it, becuase nothing else but unschooling works for our family.
We are so free to be and see ....Its amazing. I have made the descion
though that I am not going to let people get under my skin like that.
We are doing this for our family. no one else

Beth

Can I point something out to you as objectively and as gently as possible?

In the fist part of your message you're lamenting the way others are judging
you for doing things differently. But then you go on to cast judgement on
other families who do things differently than you.

Just an observation.

We love the Simpsons. We have almost every season on DVD and my children
love to watch. They don't swear at me (although Sarah did say "Dammit!"
rather loudly when she stubbed her toe on the doorjam last week), but they
are always allowed to talk back to me and share their feelings and thoughts.
They do it in a calm way because generaly children speak the way they're
spoken to.

I know it's frustrating to feel judged. One of the best things you can do
for yourself and your children is to let go of worrying about what other
people think, not just in unschooling, but in life. Life is far too short
to live it trying to win other peoples' approval.

Let it go.

Beth

----- Original Message -----
From: "motherbear49" <motherbear49@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:56 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Vent --- just need to vent!


> I have been homeschooling my children for years --- they are happy and
> learning - really learning, not memorizing -- what they need to learn.
> I know that in my heart, but I am weary of people saying to me --- "so
> if they were in school what grade would they be in?"--- "my son is in
> "excellerated learning" What is that? something like speed reading?
> Guess I am weary of being looked upon as a negligent mother!
> I work full time as single mother and i thin they beliee my children
> get a part time education!
>
> I see their children, I have been to their homes, their children swear
> and talk back, and it is looked at as funny --- (thank you "The
> Simpsons" and the like) they watch movies that I, as an adult, would
> not watch.(r rated!) So they are getting A's from a flawed system. In
> my opinion.
> I believe that if you bring your children up knowing quality they will
> recognize "ugly" in an instant! So far that is true.
> Just weary today. Thanks for listening.
>
> Kathleen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005
>
>

averyschmidt

> What do people
> consider "talking back?"

I think that in traditional (adversarial) parent-child
relationships, "talking back" refers to a child responding in kind to
nasty, patronizing, or controlling talk from his parents. My children
don't hear me or their father speaking nastily to them, so there is no
need for that kind of "talking back" on their part.

I also think the whole idea of "talking back," and that being a *bad*
thing for a child to do, is related to the idea of children being seen
and not heard and of children generally being far less valuable than
the adults around them.

I'm just realizing now that my children would be pretty flabbergasted
by the whole concept, and I have to say I'm proud of that. :-)

Patti

averyschmidt

> I see their children, I have been to their homes, their children
swear
> and talk back, and it is looked at as funny --- (thank you "The
> Simpsons" and the like) they watch movies that I, as an adult,
would
> not watch.(r rated!)

My children talk back (see my previous post), swear sometimes, and
love the Simpsons. They are also regarded quite positively by even
the most traditional-minded adults who know them.
And I'm sorry that you wouldn't watch a movie based on an R rating-
you're missing some very good ones. :-/

> I believe that if you bring your children up knowing quality they
will
> recognize "ugly" in an instant! So far that is true.

Are your children recognizing "ugly" in an instant, or are they
instantly recognizing what their mother would or would not deem
acceptable? There are some stunningly beautiful R rated movies out
there and some stunningly ugly (IMO) G rated ones.

Patti

homeschoolcrew6

Have you guys watched Crash? My hubby and I sat down and watched it
last weekend, and what a thought provoking movie. I am going to be
sitting down with ym son today and watching it again. Him hearing me
talk about what a great movie it was has sparked his interest. It was
so incrediable...I highly reccomend it.
As for talking back...I didnt even look at that part of the orginal
post..lol...I was concentrating on the whole compare our kids routine,
which I dislike BIG time. Or the woman standing in the grocery line
feels its ok to "test" my kids on their times tables when they ask why
their not in school and they get an answer *gag*
My kids talk back...and quite frankly I wouldnt want it any other way.
If my kids woke up every morning and were in the best moods ever,
wouldnt that mean that I would have to be in a good mood ALLLLLL the
time? lol...umm ya no. We all wake up on the wrong side of th bed for
one and for two I think sometimes people label talking back as such ,
but its really just people expressing a view. I actully dont really
know what I would label as talking back now that I am thinking about
it...

Angela

<<I think that in traditional (adversarial) parent-child
relationships, "talking back" refers to a child responding in kind to
nasty, patronizing, or controlling talk from his parents. My children
don't hear me or their father speaking nastily to them, so there is no
need for that kind of "talking back" on their part.>>

I agree. In fact, I always know when I've crossed the line to disrespectful
because I get it right back and then I have to stop and think about what I
said to cause that kind of reaction.

I am glad my kids have the courage to stand up for themselves. I hope they
take that lesson through the rest of their lives and never let people treat
them badly.

My kids are some of the most pleasant kids to be around that I know. They
like the Simpsons too and they even swear sometimes, but they know that the
language they use at home isn't appropriate except at home. (for now)

When some of my nieces and nephews were younger and used inappropriate
language/talk, I was very judgmental of their parents who had allowed them
to watch inappropriate TV shows etc. But now I feel differently. It isn't
allowing the shows that is the problem, it is the lack of addressing what
they see/hear and giving them appropriate information about what is
acceptable in certain situations and not.

Angela
Game-enthusiast@...

Sandra Dodd

On Dec 7, 2005, at 5:53 AM, Angela wrote:

> I always know when I've crossed the line to disrespectful
> because I get it right back and then I have to stop and think about
> what I
> said to cause that kind of reaction.

===========

I feel that way too. Most parents around me when I was growing up
hardly knew their kids. Part of that was probably school. Part of
it, though, was the "don't talk back" rule which effectively
prevented any real communications.

Good for our situation: When one of my kids is sharp and defensive,
I consider that either I'm being unreasonable, or that it has nothing
much to do with me at all, but that the kid is not feeling well or is
hungry or has something going on with friends or projects that has
frustrated him or her. Sometimes I respond with personal hurt, but
those aren't the good times. A better choice is to offer food, ask
how he's feeling, and give him some space.

Parents who take everything as a personal affront miss the
opportunity to accept the clue that something is wrong with their
children if they're being less courteous or civil than usual. And it
also makes the moment about the parent and the parents "rights" and
feelings instead of about the child.

Generosity breeds generosity.

http://sandradodd.com/respect is about the benefits of respecting
children.

Forbidding a child to watch The Simpsons, or badmouthing The Simpsons
to a child who thinks it's interesting, funny and thought-provoking,
will do more damage to a child and to the relationship between that
parent and child than any amount of watching the program could do.
Maybe an adult who takes pride in resisting and rejecting popular
culture and whose interests and talents don't lean toward
interpersonal relationships wouldn't appreciate the richness of The
Simpsons, but it's helpful for unschooling when parents can encourage
their children to explore and enjoy even things the parents aren't
drawn to, so that our children's worlds aren't limited by our own
knowledge and interests, but can be bigger and broader.

A child is more likely to talk back to a parent to prevents his
choices and freedoms, or if he's forbidden to talk back he will start
the countdown to time to get out.

Without the choice to talk back to parents, how can a child choose
not to?
If a child is "forbidden" (meaning will be punished if...) to talk
back, that doesn't mean he's more respectful of his parents or that
he's a nicer, better kid. It means he's a restricted and limited kid.

My children are courteous by choice. They're generous by choice.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Dec 7, 2005, at 5:48 AM, homeschoolcrew6 wrote:

>
> -=-If my kids woke up every morning and were in the best moods ever,
> wouldnt that mean that I would have to be in a good mood ALLLLLL the
> time? -=-

That's pretty much how it is here, and I really like it.
I don't "have to" be in a good mood all the time, but it's way
preferable and more comfortable and healthier every moment that I am.


> -=-We all wake up on the wrong side of th bed for
> one...-=-

All? Always?
Why?


> -=-...and for two I think sometimes people label talking back as
> such ,
> but its really just people expressing a view. -=-

For some people, any expressed view would be "talking back."
For others, only rudely phrased or emotionally-charged negative
responses are "talking back," but literally, looking at the phrase
itself, it's traditionally an offense for children to "talk" in
response to an adult. Anything but "yes sir" is wrong, in some
families. "Do what you're told." Just like that. Being commanded
and directed and controlled. It does as much harm to the parent as
to the child. It makes the child small, but it makes the parent
small too, and it robs them of the inestimable treasure of a close
and open relationship.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/7/2005 6:53:45 AM Central Standard Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:

When some of my nieces and nephews were younger and used inappropriate
language/talk, I was very judgmental of their parents who had allowed them
to watch inappropriate TV shows etc.


~~~

And even those kids use swear words! They're more likely to use them when
their parent's can't hear, and then feel guilty that they did, have to claim
innocence when their little brother rats them out, which produces more guilt
and conflict.

I'd much rather hear a well placed s**t! out of my son's mouth when he drops
his coke on the floorboard, than know he's feeling guilty about forming his
lips around a word in secret. What else would he be hiding?

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

I know it's frustrating to feel judged. One of the best things you can do
for yourself and your children is to let go of worrying about what other
people think, not just in unschooling, but in life. Life is far too short
to live it trying to win other peoples' approval.

********************************************************

Oh this is SOOOO hard.

You know, I was just getting totally into unschooling last week and feeling totally confident (something I still struggle with) and I totally "got it" and then I hear other people talk and say stuff out of complete ignorance, and it just makes me question myself all over again, "am I doing the right thing"? I'm one of those persons who likes to keep all the options open...and I have to remind myself that with unschooling, all the options ARE open. No door ever closes, ever. The only difference is that learning is not on a schedule and the resources available are many more than just a textboook and a grade.

I was just reminded today that my son took a college course, but didn't do well (it was a remedial english). He actually tested into the higher remedial class (which was a boon to us!!), but then proceeded to not do all of the assignments etc. I realize that some of it was an organization problem, and some of it was a motivation problem. I guess thats what upsets me the most...why did he take the class if he wasn't going to do the work? He enjoyed the class, and he really thought he *was* getting stuff done, but at the same time he admitted he was cutting corners. He was only 16 at the time, so maybe it was a maturity issue. And the professor seemed to think he just didn't have enough "experience material" to write about. It just makes me question everything. Not enough material? I really must have failed.

And yet, he learned other things from taking the class. He learned that not all institutional learning is forced and unpleasant, such as it is at compulsary attendance schools. He learned that he really likes college age friends. And he loved being in class. Everyone really loved his sense of humor. It built his confidence that way, even if he didn't do well in the class.

And yet, one year later, he has actually created an apprenticeship for himself by working with the next door neighbor doing siding etc. It was through this neighbor that he also taught himself the drums, learned how to "jam" and goes on interesting field trips to watch "trains", learned some photography, and aquired a nice camera. And now, two of his other friends (who are in their late 20's, early 30's) are planning to start up an arcade kind of place with video games like for xbox and he is slated to be the av tech for the new place. They even have the right connections to do it. I hope it really happens for them, I'm really excited about the idea.

OBVIOUSLY he is doing really well, and this lifestyle is really working for him. And I"m convinced that no other lifestyle would have come close to meeting his needs. And yet, even he says from time to time that he should have stayed in school because he would have learned more.

And my youngest daughter has a friend who tells her she is going to grow up to be stupid because she isn't in school. (Some friend! but my daughter likes to hang out with her, though less so since she started saying stuff like that). This is the daughter who is only just reading more fluently this year, and the same one who likes to look through my college level Anatomy and Phyiology book...she's 10, and wants to be a doctor....but she still wonders if her friend is right sometimes. Though, lately she has been saying that the problem is with the friend, not with our lifestyle. Smart girl.

I guess I just struggle with confidence sometimes. I loved reading about Sandra's son taking the math class at college. It just cemented for me the whole idea that learning is available at any time. There is no need to put it on a schedule. Its just hard to "be" in a world where so many others don't understand that.

Kristen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

homeschoolcrew6

Sandra

No not always....we dont always wake up on the wrong side of the bed
and we dont ALL usually do it on the same day. I was meaning that we
all wake up on the wrong side of the bed from time to time....I wasnt
complete in my thought I suppose. I was implying that we all have off
days, and thats ok. I have no problem with that.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 6, 2005, at 7:56 PM, motherbear49 wrote:

> Guess I am weary of being looked upon as a negligent mother!

Maybe it would help to look at it this way: You make them nervous
because in their minds there are only two possibilities: either
you're a fruitcake who can't see what obviously is necessary in order
to raise kids or everything they're struggling with and everything
they make their kids struggle with is unnecessary. So to protect
themselves they have to assume you're a fruitcake.

I tend to give out what people want to hear. Not lie to them. I just
don't rock their boats unless they're asking questions that let me
know they're interested in rocking ;-) To the grade question I'll
answer "She's homeschooled but she'd be in 9th grade." And I don't
say unschooling, just that her learning is based around her interests.

> I see their children, I have been to their homes, their children swear
> and talk back, and it is looked at as funny --- (thank you "The
> Simpsons" and the like)

Simpson's doesn't cause swearing. We watch Simpsons and we don't swear.

What causes disrespectful kids (which might be expressed by swearing)
is being treated with disrespect.

Some kids and some families use swear words because they're just
words to them. Different values.

There's an important distinction if you want to see clearly causes
and effects between swearing and being disrespectful. Not the same
thing.

> they watch movies that I, as an adult, would
> not watch.(r rated!)

My daughter has watched some movies and TV shows I wouldn't watch on
my own either. They happen to be G and PG but the important part is
that she has her own standards of what she likes, what satisfies her
needs and I have mine. Lots overlap but much doesn't too. That's okay.

Unschooling means giving them freedom (and support!) to explore the
world. For some kids that freedom will be the ability to explore (R-
rated) horror movies but kids aren't going to watch adult movies just
because they're given freedom. Why would they? Kids do pick and
choose which kid movies they like and want to see. Why would they
watch more adult movies indescriminately?

When we divide the world between what they can and can't do/see, it's
natural for them to want to do what they can't. When we say "No, you
can't do/watch that," we're saying we don't think they can handle
it. It's like setting up a challenge for them. They *want* to prove
they're competent.

When the world is divided between what they want to do and what they
don't want to do, there's no reason to choose what they don't want to
do! Though my daughter has seen a couple of R rated movies but she
knows her personal limits on horror and has no interest in sex so
there's no reason for her to want to watch most R movies. Not because
they're R but because they just don't interest her.

I could make her want to see them by telling her she can't though! Or
by telling her they're bad or junk.

Since she does have the freedom to choose, since she knows I'm on her
side in trying to find what *she* wants to see (and trying to avoid
what *she* doesn't want to see) she does trust me when I tell her
there are scenes that she might not like. She knows I don't have an
ulterior motive in trying to get her to see only quality, or get her
to hone her judgement so she'll only choose what I would choose.

And part of being a family is being exposed to what others like (what
others think is "quality") so she gets exposed to a lot she wouldn't
grab off the shelf on her own.

> I believe that if you bring your children up knowing quality they will
> recognize "ugly" in an instant! So far that is true.

No, what they learn to recognize is what the parents' standards of
quality are. They learn "This is what Mom thinks is good and this is
what Mom thinks is bad." But that doesn't give them an internal
barometer to judge something new, especially if they aren't exposed
to bad! They only have a vague impression from some external
qualities of what constitutes "bad" without actually experiencing and
deciding for themselves.

Judgement comes from trying things out, not memorizing what others
think is good and bad. Good (and quality) and bad are relative terms.
Lots of people would judge a lot of what I watched and read when I
was a child as "bad" (though now it's classic junk ;-) but it
satisfied something I needed at the time that more "quality" shows
and books didn't meet.

*Because* I had the freedom to choose what met my needs and what
didn't meet them I was able to decide *for myself* what is quality
*for me*. I can see that Lost in Space isn't "quality" (even knew it
at the time). I can see that "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and
"Forbidden Planet" are deeper but though I enjoyed them they didn't
satisfy my needs at the time.

No one needed to tell me what quality was. I figured it out for
myself by watching what I liked, talking about what I liked and
didn't, listening to others and exploring freely.

It's important to ask yourself what is "quality"? Is it decided by
experts and everyone goes along? If so what relevance does it have if
someone doesn't like something deemed "quality"?

Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions: http://home.earthlink.net/
~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Weekly writing prompts: [email protected]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Su Penn

It strikes me that the whole concept of "talking back" implies a
certain kind of power relationship--you can't talk back to someone
who doesn't have a lot of power over you. Parents do have a lot of
power over kids, it's true, but perhaps for us unschooling types it's
more useful to think in the same kinds of terms we would use with
another adult: he was rude to me, or insulted me, or said something
unkind, or was cranky....

Su


On Dec 7, 2005, at 8:19 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> For some people, any expressed view would be "talking back."
> For others, only rudely phrased or emotionally-charged negative
> responses are "talking back," but literally, looking at the phrase
> itself, it's traditionally an offense for children to "talk" in
> response to an adult. Anything but "yes sir" is wrong, in some
> families. "Do what you're told." Just like that.

Sandra Dodd

On Dec 7, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> I can see that "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and
> "Forbidden Planet" are deeper but though I enjoyed them they didn't
> satisfy my needs at the time.

------------------------

I wouldn't even know those moves' names if they weren't in a song in
Rocky Horror Picture Show (rated R).

I know some young adults/later teens who would not attend a G rated
movie, because they don't "have to" or they're too old. My kids
choose movies without regard to their ratings, and are perfectly
happy to watch "tame" movies, family movies, because they choose
their movies by what they feel like seeing at the time, and their
tastes are broad. Holly suggested that I buy Marty a CD of The
Little Mermaid when we were out shopping the other day, because he
really likes "Kiss the Girl." How many nearly-17-year-old boys might
be embarrassed to get that for Christmas? But I bought him R-rated
Kevin Smith movies three years ago.

In the past few days my kids have watched, in various combinations,
the new War of the Worlds (Kirby warned me about one scary part
because I was in the room), some of the BBC series "The Office,"
Holly and I watched the Talky Tina episode of Twilight Zone ("Living
Doll"), PeeWee's Big Adventure, Deadwood (Marty was watching it on
DVD while I was cutting his hair, because he just got a job that
needs a haircut). None of those movies will make them rude,
paranoid or dangerous. Thoughts and discussions born of those
movies will make them more thoughtful, aware of art/history/
literature/geography/theatre/moviemaking, and it strengthens their
relationships within the family to have shared experiences.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Dec 7, 2005, at 9:18 AM, homeschoolcrew6 wrote:

> -=-I was implying that we all have off
> days, and thats ok. I have no problem with that.-=-


I think of all the things I've learned from other unschoolers online
over the years the most helpful to me of all was the concept of
having only moments, not days. Someone, and I wish someone would
remember who, a dozen years ago on AOL's message boards, said that
she never said she was "having a bad day," only that she was having a
bad moment.

That really stuck with me and has made a difference in hundreds of
thousands of moments.

When a person says "bad day," it condemns the hours before bedtime.
But any bad moment can be turned around, and the NEXT moment can be
better, and maybe even GREAT!

Honestly, at our house people don't get up on the wrong side of the
bed. I think if I woke them up with chores they might, but I try to
let them wake up naturally unless they've requested a wake-up. If
they don't wake up naturally, it's either me (at their request) or an
alarm (one they've set), usually, and they get up cheerfully.

If it's possible to make moments and mornings better, and to expect
better and to plan for better, it's worth doing. Saying "everyone
has bad days" is an Eeyore moment, I think, and though I had what
seemed to be lots of bad days when I was a kid, and in my 20's, I
don't anymore, and my kids don't.

Maslow said that learning works better (or more specifically it can't
really happen at all) when a person feels safe and loved (and is fed
and rested). That's an important consideration when creating and
maintaining an unschooling nest.

Sandra

GypsyWolf

just wanted to pop in & say TY to everyones input on this thread. i wont
go into details but it made me rethink a lot of things. (talking back,
movies, t.v. shows, & life in general)

GypsyWolf


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

** It strikes me that the whole concept of "talking back" implies a
certain kind of power relationship--you can't talk back to someone
who doesn't have a lot of power over you.**

I've just been watching West Wing on DVD.

When the TV president says something to a staffer (or anyone else that's
talking to him outside of his family) the only answer they can give is
"Thank you, Mr. President." It's clear that sometimes they'd like to
say something else. <g>

Betsy

homeschoolcrew6

Sandra
what a wonderful way of putting things into words. I think perhaps my
figures of speech are taken a wee bit to seriously however...lol...when
I mean getting out of bed on the wrong side, I dont mean they actulyl
got up miserable...I jsut mean that some days are better then others.
No person can have good moments all the time. I think to many times
parents expect their kids to be these perfect little beings, with no
moods or anything. Actully I think my guys are perfect little beings
with their moods. My children are still very young, 8, 5 and 3. and
they still do get up and are a little wet behind the ears. When nothing
will help then lying on the couch and having cuddles. We do this and
enjoy it. But thats what I mean by on days and off days. some days they
just need more down time. I dont think I am getting my point acrossed
very well *sigh*

Sandra Dodd

On Dec 7, 2005, at 1:50 PM, homeschoolcrew6 wrote:

> I think perhaps my
> figures of speech are taken a wee bit to seriously
> however...lol...when
> I mean getting out of bed on the wrong side, I dont mean they actulyl
> got up miserable...

==================

It's not too often that defining an awakening as bad to ANY degree is
going to be helpful, though.


-=-No person can have good moments all the time.-=-

No, but that's not a good reason to accept and expect bad moments.
The more positivity a mom puts into the mix, the more will be in, and
the more will come out.

-=-I think perhaps my
figures of speech are taken a wee bit to seriously however.-=-

Anytime you post to this list, look at your words before you hit
"send." You chose your own terminology, and if it means something,
it will probably be discussed. If it DOESn't mean something, don't
post it.

-=-I think to many times
parents expect their kids to be these perfect little beings, with no
moods or anything.-=-

Being happy is a mood!

Sandra

Betsy Hill

**Actully I think my guys are perfect little beings
with their moods. My children are still very young, 8, 5 and 3. and
they still do get up and are a little wet behind the ears. When nothing
will help then lying on the couch and having cuddles.**

Is this more when they are awakened externally, like by noise?

Betsy

homeschoolcrew6

Betsy.....ummm usually its when they have had a restless night or a
stressful day the day before....by stressful I mean busy. by restless
I mean up a few more times then normal, and by normal I mean the
standard amount of times that their up daily which is hardly ever. I
dont mena to imply that they wake up yelling and screaming and
unrestless and the list could go on. I mean that they wake sometimes
different then they normally are. It could be anything from not
wanting to do anything, wanting me around, not wanting me around,
wanting to eat, not wanting to eat...their just different then their
go lucky selves. Does it last long ? Not usually...when we take the
time and talk about it or cuddle or even just sit down on the couch
with a huge stack of movies and watch the classics all day. Everyone
needs that down time, and sometimes its their moods that enlighten me
to realize...hey we've been pretty busy this week...we need a break.
I am glad for everyones input, but it seems like some think I wake
up , lable the day bad and treat everything bad there on in...We wake
up...someone is off, we do what we need to do to help each other..and
move on...by no means does it REALLY last all day....heavens
no...*shrug*...Like I said , my kids are still very young and have a
hard time at times expressing themselves. By hard time I mean my 3 yo
sometimes cant put words to what she feels, just the emotion. Were
learning together. I think I will go back into my shell now.

Pamela Sorooshian

Her point was that it is hypocritical for parents to expect children
to be in absolutely perfectly shining happy moods ALL the time and
call it "talking back" when a kid expresses a negative point of view,
gets irritated or angry, or behaves in any way less than perfectly.
Unless parents are truly absolutely perfect and NEVER have a "lesser
moment" themselves - then it isn't fair to expect our children to
never have a "lesser moment," either.

That isn't the same as expecting and accepting bad moments - it is
recognizing that most of us DO have some better and some worse
times. We may be trying to put more positivity into the mix and we
may be succeeding at that - but no matter how much we strive for
perfection, most of us still have times we get overwhelmed, tired, a
little frustrated, or a bit impatient.

Since WE are likely to be less than perfect, it seems unreasonable to
expect children to always BE perfect and to get annoyed with them and
call it "talking back," when they express themselves negatively in
some way.

Much better to consider WHY they are feeling negative - do they need
food, attention, support, quiet, rest, etc., then to just say they're
not "allowed" to "talk back."

-pam

On Dec 7, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

>
>
> -=-No person can have good moments all the time.-=-
>
> No, but that's not a good reason to accept and expect bad moments.
> The more positivity a mom puts into the mix, the more will be in, and
> the more will come out.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Dec 7, 2005, at 8:37 AM, Have a Nice Day! wrote:

> -=-I'm one of those persons who likes to keep all the options
> open...and I have to remind myself that with unschooling, all the
> options ARE open. No door ever closes, ever. -=-


No one can go through all the doors in the world at the same time,
though.

We choose not to go through some doors, right? You said your son
sometimes says he should've gone to school. If he HAD gone to
school, he'd probably be saying he wished he had been home more.

Not all options are open. My kids didn't have the chance (chance,
not guarantee) to do really sparkly well in school and have that on a
college application. It's a LOT of work to do what has to be done
for the usually-small advantage of having something impressive on a
college application, and people can do the same amount of work and
NOT be top of the class or honor roll. But in any case, that door
was closed for them long ago.

Still, it's possible that they could make really good grades in
college if they felt the making-good-grades door was closing.

I really think the damage of pressure isn't worth the *possible*
reward of future wealth, in very many cases. I'm vastly outnumbered
by parents who think the best thing a parent can do is funnel a kid
toward money-making and get him out of the house at 18.

Deadlines on doors is way more door-closing than anything, I think.
And those deadlines are often arbitrary or based on counting
backwards from retirement for optimal retirement benefit. If a
parent acts as though a kid who isn't in college at 20 has thrown his
life away, that's a parental claim, not a truth. Keith graduated
when he was nearly 30 and had many fun adventures earlier, when
others his age were working toward retirement. A few of them gambled
and lost on that; they didn't live to retirement.

All that, for me, points toward peace in the moment, and
encouragement and acceptance and other mushy stuff. <g>

Sandra

Ann

Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote: I really think the damage of pressure isn't worth the *possible*
reward of future wealth, in very many cases. I'm vastly outnumbered
by parents who think the best thing a parent can do is funnel a kid
toward money-making and get him out of the house at 18.
_____________

This is so true!
I have four daughters, one is 23 and another just turned 18 December 1. I am grateful that they still want to be home. I know they are here by choice and that feels really nice. My 23 yr old plans to graduate from college in one more year. It took her longer because she wanted to explore different areas, and take certain classes for fun. She didn't focus on a degree program right away.
My 18 year old is still 'unschooling'. She is still doing the same stuff she was doing a couple of weeks ago when she was 17. Just because a birthday passes doesn't mean they have to be finished being kids. I think having an expectation of when kids are supposed to be ready to 'graduate' or grow up is very schoolish thinking. They should be allowed to become independent in their own time, in their own way, under circumstances that bring them joy.

Ann


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

No one can go through all the doors in the world at the same time,
though.

We choose not to go through some doors, right? You said your son
sometimes says he should've gone to school. If he HAD gone to
school, he'd probably be saying he wished he had been home more.

Not all options are open.


************************

I know that there are realistic barriers to things, like money and time, and geography. But that doesn't mean the door is closed forever though...just at the moment. I still think the options are open, just, as you said, not at the same time.

And its true, we have to make choices and that limits our options too, but not because the options aren't open. My son chose to stay home because I always said he could go to school if he wanted to. He could have changed his mind at any time.

It bothers me though that he thinks sometimes that he would have learned more in school. In the past he would get angry and say "you don't teach us anything".

Mainly its because he (and the other 2) sometimes compare what they are doing at home with what goes on at school and they think that we're deficient because they aren't learning all the same stuff at the same time as their peers. And then other times my youngest will say "but we get to do what we want, and do it at our own pace" and although she liked some aspects of school, she doesn't know if she'll ever go back.

Maybe I need to emphasize that whatever they choose is really ok with me, but it is a choice, *because* we can't do everything all at the same time.

Often times I will offer to do stuff, like play a game, etc, and they turn me down in favor of their xanga sites, which is fine. But then they blame me because we didn't "do anything" that day.

I'm just tired of being the scapegoat at times like those.

Kristen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Dec 8, 2005, at 7:45 AM, litlrooh@... wrote:

> Maybe I need to emphasize that whatever they choose is really ok
> with me, but it is a choice, *because* we can't do everything all
> at the same time.

----------------------

I think that would help me if I were a kid. My mom said "you can be
anything you want" but that wasn't really true. If she'd been saying
"You can do anything you've missed later," I would KNOW that wasn't
true. Anyone who never gets a tattoo will never have one. Those
who did will never again have the option NOT to have had one. Minor
example, but a little like school.

Anyone who went to school (K-12 or the compulsory equivalent in the
country of the reader) lost the chance to never have gone. Those
who didn't go lost the chance to have had a first day of school at a
very young age, and to learn about love on the playground, and about
sex in the bathrooms, etc. My kids don't know how to ditch school.
They don't know what "a hallpass" is or how one would get one or
why. Lots of doors are fine to leave closed. <g>

Hallpasses and knowing how to ditch won't guarantee nor prevent
anyone from going to grad school and becoming an astronaut/doctor/
lawyer/whatever.

There are lots of things that can prevent a person from becoming
president (or at least make it very VERY unlikely), for another
example. http://sandradodd.com/president

-=-Maybe I need to emphasize that whatever they choose is really ok
with me-=-

Maybe emphasize that whatever they choose needs to be okay with them,
too.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Dec 8, 2005, at 7:17 AM, Ann wrote:

> -=-They should be allowed to become independent in their own time,
> in their own way, under circumstances that bring them joy.-=-

=================

What a perfect way to look at it.

I know there's a natural desire to leave, in kids in their later
teens, early 20's. They do start looking around, and the nest does
seem to be shrinking. But too many families exacerbate that and the
kids are ready to leave at sixteen, or thirteen. And for some
kids, the clock is ticking, and they will, like ticks, jump on the
nearest-passing other dog at that age.

That's the best metaphor I ever mixed. <g>

If home is not comfortable and safe, it won't take much to lure them
out. Parents can set the bar SO LOW that running away or leaving
with someone the kid hardly knows seems better and safer. YUCK!

Keith and I have joked about how our kids will only leave for someone
who owns a home and is REALLY nice if we keep up the way we are. And
that's not a bad deal in any way.

They'll only leave under circumstances that bring them joy. I really
like that.

Sandra

Heather Woodward

"If a parent acts as though a kid who isn't in college at 20 has thrown his
life away, that's a parental claim, not a truth. Keith graduated
when he was nearly 30 and had many fun adventures earlier"

I think it's great that your husband was able to do this.

I am still in college at 32 - (graduate school) and have taken courses of
interest here and there. My Dad especially stressed the importance of
education - and that I was brilliant and could do anything I wanted etc. -
but there were other issues and I did exactly what you were saying about the
fleas jumping to the next dog. I left the day after high school
graduation -and was married a year later. I am still married (happily...)
with three children (luckily - the next dog was a really great one! - but
that doesn't always happen). Sometimes I wonder if I would have done some
other things - before getting married. I always wanted to travel a bit and
would have liked to figure out what I wanted out of life. I still don't
really know what I want to do when I "grow up" . However, this is case in
point of the school system - I came out high honors and top of the class -
clueless as to what I really wanted to do with life. In college, I was sure
I was going to work on Wall street - and then came to the conclusion that I
really dislike big cities and that whole atmosphere - and I much prefer the
country. I think there are many people that follow the prescribed high
school/college/making money path and then find out that they didn't really
want to be a doctor, etc.

I think the great thing for my kids is watching them develop their passions.
My daughter who loves cooking can spend hours watching cooking shows and
then she'll go in the kitchen and experiment with bread. I wasn't even
allowed in the kitchen when I was her age (11). She is already a great baker
and cook and won't have to wait until "someday" to become one - because she
can practice now. I know that if she chooses to go to college it will be
because she wants to - and not because she thinks that's the next step - the
only option.

I will share this - my parents put so much emphasis on going to school - and
college being the whole way to make you happy and successful - that I had a
huge guilt feeling that I couldn't do anything worthwhile without the piece
of paper. Well, now I have the piece of paper - and really I am the same
person I was before - and am still waiting for the genius to set it!(just
kidding) It was talked about like it was the magic spell of security and
that if only you had that degree you can do anything. I have found that it
simply isn't true - that in some cases it will open doors - but what matters
more is doing whatever it is that you love - and being able to get in there
and muck around in life.

Heather