six_morebooks

Hi All,

I'm new to this group and our family is pretty new to homeschooling
and unschooling as a means of education. My kids have actually
dragged me into this method of learning kicking and screaming (sort
of). I wanted to work, earn money, buy better opportunities! We have
17/g & a 9/b.

For our daughter, her grades began plummeting in her 7th year; as
did her spirit. She ended up grounded and with priviledges taken
away for half the year, each year. I'd notice a change in her
attitude around the 3rd week of September and her attitude got
increasingly worse throughout the school year. You'd think I'd get
it, but alas...

As for our son, during the last semester of 2nd grade we knew
something was wrong in his public education, but we didn't know
what. He wasn't sleeping well, was very anxious at bed time; he'd
worry about so many things. We know/knew he's a very sensative
child, but this was absurd! Though we tried, we couldn't see what
was really wrong. Where was all of this anxiety coming from?

We visted therapists. After last year, I finally threw my hands into
the air and said 'that's it, no more public school - period.' The
transition has been tough. Our son we found out through testing is
mildly dyslexic. Both our children are above their grade level
intellectually and were not only bored half to death, but also felt
left out, overlooked, different.

It's our own fault I realize. I never like school, why would they?
Since our kids were born, we've always tried to show them what
wonders await them in the arts, sciences, literature, open thought,
etc.

We started out homeschooling because in this area of the country,
there is only homeschooling. Its only been through links like
Sandra's that I've found where we fit in this whole education
odyssey. It's scary, and we do it one day at a time, because the
alternatives are unacceptable for our family. We are still learning.

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/26/05 4:01:11 PM, formacies@... writes:


> -=-My kids have actually
> dragged me into this method of learning kicking and screaming (sort
> of).-=-
>

If you feel you've come to unschooling against your will or against your
better judgment, it's not going to work as well as if you really want to do it.

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

"Have to" is a bad thing. "Kicking and screaming" isn't a pleasant thought,
even used jokingly.

-=-She ended up grounded and with priviledges taken
away for half the year, each year.-=-

You used "she" as the subject of that sentence, as though she did something,
but the grounding and loss of privilege came from you, the mom, right?

It will be easier for you to see clearly the path behind and ahead if you
take out the unnecessary blockages. You grounded her. Had you said "We
grounded her and took her privileges away" that would be a different thing for us
to read and for you to remember and express than "She ended up grounded."

-=-Our son we found out through testing is mildly dyslexic.-=-

You had him tested and now he has a label.
Try not to use it, even here please.

http://sandradodd.com/reading

There are lots of reading stories there. Labels don't help; they hurt.

-=-Since our kids were born, we've always tried to show them what
wonders await them in the arts, sciences, literature, open thought,
etc.-=-

Not counting when they were grounded or losing privileges. This is
important, if you want to get to really smooth unschooling, which you CAN do.

Why would those wonders (arts, sciences, literature and open thought) "await"
them?
Those wonders are available to them right now.

-=- It's scary, and we do it one day at a time, because the
alternatives are unacceptable for our family.-=-

A moment at a time. If half a day isn't what you'd like, don't write the
day off; do better in the next moment, and the next moment.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

six_morebooks

Well, the sad truth is that I have many 'blockages' that I can only
overcome in time and through exercises like the ones I'm
experiencing today. In my childhood home, chidren were thought to be
little pictures on the wall; seen, but not heard. I'm growing
through many blockages.

The "kicking and screaming" euphamism refers to the fact, and I
don't think I'm alone in this, that learning to do what is right is
not always easy or fun (not to mention scary) - at least it hasn't
been in my experience.

It is my better judgement to find out what these wonderful people
I'm supposed to be guiding - really need.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by:

"You used "she" as the subject of that sentence, as though she did
something, but the grounding and loss of privilege came from you,
the mom, right? It will be easier for you to see clearly the path
behind and ahead if you take out the unnecessary blockages. You
grounded her. Had you said "We grounded her and took her privileges
away" that would be a different thing for us to read and for you to
remember and express than "She ended up grounded."

How would 'we grounded her' sound different? How can I take
blockages out that I don't know exist?

As for my son's dyslexia; I'll try not to use labels again - I don't
quite understand the order of things as this is really my first time
reaching out in this way. I thought, still think, as a diagnosis its
a tool for helping me see how he thinks and better connect with him.
As for that, some of my most favorite people in this world (past and
present) were diagnosed similarly.


(Why would those wonders (arts, sciences, literature and open
thought) "await"
> them?)
This referred to when they were babes.

Going to visit Grandma now. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone,
but somehow I feel like I just got 'my beads read to me'. Sorry.





--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/26/05 4:01:11 PM, formacies@c... writes:
>
>
> > -=-My kids have actually
> > dragged me into this method of learning kicking and screaming
(sort
> > of).-=-
> >
>
> If you feel you've come to unschooling against your will or
against your
> better judgment, it's not going to work as well as if you really
want to do it.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
> "Have to" is a bad thing. "Kicking and screaming" isn't a
pleasant thought,
> even used jokingly.
>
> -=-She ended up grounded and with priviledges taken
> away for half the year, each year.-=-
>
> You used "she" as the subject of that sentence, as though she did
something,
> but the grounding and loss of privilege came from you, the mom,
right?
>
> It will be easier for you to see clearly the path behind and ahead
if you
> take out the unnecessary blockages. You grounded her. Had you
said "We
> grounded her and took her privileges away" that would be a
different thing for us
> to read and for you to remember and express than "She ended up
grounded."
>
> -=-Our son we found out through testing is mildly dyslexic.-=-
>
> You had him tested and now he has a label.
> Try not to use it, even here please.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/reading
>
> There are lots of reading stories there. Labels don't help; they
hurt.
>
> -=-Since our kids were born, we've always tried to show them what
> wonders await them in the arts, sciences, literature, open thought,
> etc.-=-
>
> Not counting when they were grounded or losing privileges. This
is
> important, if you want to get to really smooth unschooling, which
you CAN do.
>
> Why would those wonders (arts, sciences, literature and open
thought) "await"
> them?
> Those wonders are available to them right now.
>
> -=- It's scary, and we do it one day at a time, because the
> alternatives are unacceptable for our family.-=-
>
> A moment at a time. If half a day isn't what you'd like, don't
write the
> day off; do better in the next moment, and the next moment.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

averyschmidt

> For our daughter, her grades began plummeting in her 7th year; as
> did her spirit. She ended up grounded and with priviledges taken
> away for half the year, each year. I'd notice a change in her
> attitude around the 3rd week of September and her attitude got
> increasingly worse throughout the school year.

Your poor daughter! Was it plummeting grades that you punished her
for, or was it her broken spirit ("her attitude got increasingly
worse")? I'm sensitive to what you wrote because as a teenager I went
through a similar downward spiral in school and in happiness and was
similarly punished.
I believe you said she was 17yo- which means there isn't a whole lot
of time left to repair your relationship, and if I were you that would
be my top priority... WAY above academic concerns.
Has she (or have you) read The Teenage Liberation Handbook?

Patti

[email protected]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

** How would 'we grounded her' sound different? How can I take
blockages out that I don't know exist?**

I think it's about taking ownership for your choices. When you
implement something in your home (e.g. grounding a child) those events
don't just happen, they happen because of your choices and your follow
through.

Betsy

[email protected]

> -=-Well, the sad truth is that I have many 'blockages' that I can only
> overcome in time and through exercises like the ones I'm
> experiencing today.-=-
>
Changing thoughts is more important than time or exercise.
That's what I'm asking you to consider--that the words you've chosen are
revealing things you might not have noticed.

-=- I truly didn't mean to offend anyone,
but somehow I feel like I just got 'my beads read to me'.-=-

I notice now you've only been on the list for three days. We ask that
people read for two weeks. If you didn't get a "welcome to the list" e-mail that
said that, please let us know so we can remedy that.

I'm not the least bit offended, and I'm sorry you seem to have been. The
ideas are for discussing. The discussion can help you change if you let it
wash over you and think about it instead of resisting it.

-=-The "kicking and screaming" euphamism refers to the fact, and I
don't think I'm alone in this, that learning to do what is right is
not always easy or fun (not to mention scary) - at least it hasn't
been in my experience.-=-

How would you think it's right if it's hard and not fun? If unschooling
doesn't feel good to you, don't do it. It won't work. If you're doing what
you don't want to do, don't. It won't work. We can probably help you enjoy
unschooling and find the ease and the fun, if you want to.

-=-
It is my better judgement to find out what these wonderful people
I'm supposed to be guiding - really need.-=-

But if you live lightly and openly, you won't need to find out what they
really need. If you give them the freedom to pick and choose and explore and
inquire, THEY can find out what they really need. You don't need to figure out
what they really need to eat, you just need to make a variety of foods
available and let them choose what they need. Same with learning anything.

-=-You used "she" as the subject of that sentence, as though she did
something, but the grounding and loss of privilege came from you,
the mom, right?-=-
-=-How would 'we grounded her' sound different? How can I take
blockages out that I don't know exist?

Keith was in a car accident once. He was asleep in the front seat, not
driving, not awake. The mother of the woman who was driving called me and it was
clear from the questions she was asking that she thought Keith had been
driving. I said no, no--MARGARET was driving. I heard Margaret tell the story
a few days later, and she said "The car wrecked." Had she said "I wrecked
the car," even her own mother would have gotten the picture. <g> By making
the car the subject of that statement, the performer of the action, Margaret
dodged confronting and admitting her own part in what happened. "I wrecked the
car." The car didn't just wreck.

And similarly, you told us that your daughter kept ending up grounded, and
losing privileges.
Your daughter didn't do that. Those things weren't natural, inevitable
consequences.


I don't think you believe they were inevitable. They were consequences
imposed by your or your husband or both. And so when you're in a place (like
this list) where we're discussing changing from one way of thinking and seeing
and being to another, the clearer you can be with your thoughts and the way you
express them, the closer you'll be to a newer, better way. The clearer you
are, the more clearly people can help you see the next stepping stone.

-=- I thought, still think, as a diagnosis its
a tool for helping me see how he thinks and better connect with him.-=-

Unschooling works the same with all kinds of kids. The labels don't help.
He will do better (though it's too late) without thinking there's something
wrong with him.

-=-As for that, some of my most favorite people in this world (past and
present) were diagnosed similarly.-=-

I bet every single one of them would have been happier to have felt whole and
good and right instead of feeling "diagnosed."

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

And the Parent-Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach by Myra
Kirshenbaum


On Nov 26, 2005, at 4:40 PM, averyschmidt wrote:

> I believe you said she was 17yo- which means there isn't a whole lot
> of time left to repair your relationship, and if I were you that would
> be my top priority... WAY above academic concerns.
> Has she (or have you) read The Teenage Liberation Handbook?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

You didn't offend. Don't BE offended at the responses, okay? Even if
they "hurt" a bit, just breathe through them and try to consider them
to whatever extent you can. It helps to make a conscious effort to
imagine them being said by someone who is smiling gently and speaking
sweetly - that really IS the reality, but the printed word hides that.

It is really good that you said right out that you didn't understand
what Sandra meant about the difference between saying, "She got
herself grounded," versus "We grounded her." I think if you explore
that question more deeply it might be a HUGE key for you - to amazing
insights about alternative ways to "see" and think about your kids
and their learning. I know that, for right now, it might appear to be
some kind of nitpicking about languge - but you might just want to
trust us, at least for the moment, that it is that kind of self-
examination that will jumpstart a whole new wonderful way of relating.

-pam

On Nov 26, 2005, at 4:09 PM, six_morebooks wrote:

> Going to visit Grandma now. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone,
> but somehow I feel like I just got 'my beads read to me'. Sorry.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: six_morebooks formacies@...

Well, the sad truth is that I have many 'blockages' that I can only
overcome in time and through exercises like the ones I'm
experiencing today. In my childhood home, chidren were thought to be
little pictures on the wall; seen, but not heard. I'm growing
through many blockages.

-=-=-=-

Be the parent you wish you could have had.

-=-=-=

The "kicking and screaming" euphamism refers to the fact, and I
don't think I'm alone in this, that learning to do what is right is
not always easy or fun (not to mention scary) - at least it hasn't
been in my experience.
-=-=-=-=-
You are now looking forward to NEW experiences. Try NOT to look at them as scary or hard---you haven't even
started to look at them at ALL yet---let's think of these new things as fun and easy! <G>

-=-=-


How would 'we grounded her' sound different? How can I take
blockages out that I don't know exist?

-=-=-=-
How 'bout: planting flowers: "I planted the flowers" vs. "The flowers ended up planted." Can you see *that*
difference? The flowers got planted, but who actually DID the planting? The flowers?????

-=-==-

As for my son's dyslexia; I'll try not to use labels again - I don't
quite understand the order of things as this is really my first time
reaching out in this way. I thought, still think, as a diagnosis its
a tool for helping me see how he thinks and better connect with him.
As for that, some of my most favorite people in this world (past and
present) were diagnosed similarly.


-=-=-=-

Do you think they *liked* being thought of as dyslexic? Do you think it mattered to "them"?

-=-=-=-

(Why would those wonders (arts, sciences, literature and open
thought) "await"
> them?)
This referred to when they were babes.
-=-=-=-

Even as babies, mine were exposed to all sorts of wonders! LIFE is one big wonder! Even as tiny infants,
being held by mom and sung to is wondrous!

-=-=-

Going to visit Grandma now. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone,
but somehow I feel like I just got 'my beads read to me'. Sorry.

-=-=-=-

We're not offended. You came looking for unschooling help/advice/insight. We're trying to help you out. It's
best here (and in general!) not to take things too personally and to look at all advice objectively---look
at your life and your choices a bit more objectively too!

~KellyKelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Honor

> -=- I thought, still think, as a diagnosis its
> a tool for helping me see how he thinks and better connect with
him.-=-
>
> Unschooling works the same with all kinds of kids. The labels
don't help.
> He will do better (though it's too late) without thinking there's
something
> wrong with him.
>
> -=-As for that, some of my most favorite people in this world
(past and
> present) were diagnosed similarly.-=-
>
> I bet every single one of them would have been happier to have
felt whole and
> good and right instead of feeling "diagnosed."
>
> Sandra
>
There are two sides to the "label" thing. Getting my label was one
of the best things to ever happen to me. It saved me from confusion,
isolation, and suicide! I finally knew that it wasn't me, it was
just something that seemed out of control at the time, but is very
managable. Getting a label helped me know where to go for help, let
me know I was not alone, and gave me the drive and tools to help
others. I didn't feel "whole and good and right" until AFTER I was
diagnosed.
On the flip side: I don't tell people my label, unless and until I
need to show them where the uncertainty is coming from, and it will
improve our relationship. I have learned how to deal with this very
well, and so, thus far it has only been three people I have told
(not counting internet).
By the way my label is aspergers.

Honor

six_morebooks

Thank You for your analogy of "someone who is smiling gently"; I'm trying to learn so
much.
I am so grateful for your kindness.

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@e...>
wrote:
>
> You didn't offend. Don't BE offended at the responses, okay? Even if
> they "hurt" a bit, just breathe through them and try to consider them
> to whatever extent you can. It helps to make a conscious effort to
> imagine them being said by someone who is smiling gently and speaking
> sweetly - that really IS the reality, but the printed word hides that.
>
> It is really good that you said right out that you didn't understand
> what Sandra meant about the difference between saying, "She got
> herself grounded," versus "We grounded her." I think if you explore
> that question more deeply it might be a HUGE key for you - to amazing
> insights about alternative ways to "see" and think about your kids
> and their learning. I know that, for right now, it might appear to be
> some kind of nitpicking about languge - but you might just want to
> trust us, at least for the moment, that it is that kind of self-
> examination that will jumpstart a whole new wonderful way of relating.
>
> -pam
>
> On Nov 26, 2005, at 4:09 PM, six_morebooks wrote:
>
> > Going to visit Grandma now. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone,
> > but somehow I feel like I just got 'my beads read to me'. Sorry.
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Linda Knauff

>
> Unschooling works the same with all kinds of kids. The labels
don't help.
> He will do better (though it's too late) without thinking there's
something
> wrong with him.
>
>
> I bet every single one of them would have been happier to have
felt whole and
> good and right instead of feeling "diagnosed."
>
> Sandra
>
There are two sides to the "label" thing. Getting my label was one
of the best things to ever happen to me. It saved me from confusion,
isolation, and suicide! I finally knew that it wasn't me, it was
just something that seemed out of control at the time, but is very
managable. Getting a label helped me know where to go for help, let
me know I was not alone, and gave me the drive and tools to help
others. I didn't feel "whole and good and right" until AFTER I was
diagnosed.
On the flip side: I don't tell people my label, unless and until I
need to show them where the uncertainty is coming from, and it will
improve our relationship. I have learned how to deal with this very
well, and so, thus far it has only been three people I have told
(not counting internet).
By the way my label is aspergers.

Honor

My daughter with Asperger's has expressed the same sentiments, Honor. I did everything I could to talk myself and her out of testing and a diagnosis because I didn't want to label her. The trouble was, she kept telling me something was "wrong" with her and she wanted to find out what it was! At age 12, she asked if there were any tests out there she could take to find out what was making her feel so different and possibly, depressed. The dx has helped the whole family understand and support her to an even greater degree than before, but most of all it has helped her understand her own gifts and struggles and to accept herself. Like you , we don't disclose often, and it is left up to her if and when we do. I don't advise testing for everyone, but I do believe looking at each child as an individual is important, and sometimes testing is the right thing to do.

Linda




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/28/05 11:34:56 AM, linda@... writes:


> The trouble was, she kept telling me something was "wrong" with her and she
> wanted to find out what it was!  At age 12, she asked if there were any
> tests out there she could take to find out what was making her feel so different
> and possibly, depressed. 
>

How do you treat her differently now than before?

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

**My daughter with Asperger's has expressed the same sentiments...**

(Jumping off on a tangent here...)

Some of the women in my family find some of the men in my family
baffling and exasperating. It's possible that these very smart men have
Asperger's or are at least a little bit on the autism spectrum when it
comes to their behavior.

I wanted to ask if anyone had read any info (or wants to write any info)
about maintaining relationships with people who have limited social
comprehension. Although, as I composed this, I thought I might get the
answer "treat them like everybody else". I've been doing that for
years, with poor results.

Taking my experience and the wild guess diagnosis (of Asperger's), I'm
thinking I might need to be a lot more explicit with my dad, rather than
just expecting him to be able to see my point of view without me
spelling it out. It might be time for me to throw tact out of the
window and be very direct.

Betsy

Linda Knauff

Direct is good. I think you can be direct, yet respectful. Many people with Asperger's have trouble with inference, so reading-between-the-lines in a book or conversation may be impossible for them. Seeing things from another's point-of-view is also very difficult for those on the autistic spectrum.


Taking my experience and the wild guess diagnosis (of Asperger's), I'm
thinking I might need to be a lot more explicit with my dad, rather than
just expecting him to be able to see my point of view without me
spelling it out. It might be time for me to throw tact out of the
window and be very direct.

Betsy


:



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen Whitfield

I found the women in my husband's family baffling and exasperating,
partially because they were often expecting me to do what they wanted based
on rather subtle (to me) hints. I suppose if I had grown up with the family
I would've been clued in. My husband, even though he grew up with the
family, has also had a problem understanding. While we were dating he was
talking about how his mother would ask for his advice but then not follow
it. I told him (and this isn't particularly insightful, I realize) that she
just wanted to talk out her problem. He hadn't thought of that before. I
don't think he's particularly dense on these issues, maybe just a little
more than the average man.

Kathleen
in LA



on 11/28/05 12:11 PM, Betsy Hill at ecsamhill@... wrote:

Some of the women in my family find some of the men in my family
baffling and exasperating. It's possible that these very smart men have
Asperger's or are at least a little bit on the autism spectrum when it
comes to their behavior.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

six_morebooks

Our son seemed to see the diagnosis as a relief. His demeaner changed perceptively, his
shoulders lifted and he seemed to feel unburdened. He was, apparently, believing
something really was wrong with him (we were stunned and devestated to learn that he
felt this way about himself).

Maybe its a flaw in me, but I don't see labels as 'something wrong', more of a way to see
how someone else might think, and process information. As a mom, I've tried to cherish
my children the best way I know how, but if I don't know what makes their hearts fly, I
don't feel I can be as helpful to them on their journeys.

I'm heartened to be seeing more and more of the wonderful, creative, exurberant little boy
I sent into Kindergarten so long ago.

--- In [email protected], "Honor"
<like_fire_and_moonlight@y...> wrote:
>
> > -=- I thought, still think, as a diagnosis its
> > a tool for helping me see how he thinks and better connect with
> him.-=-
> >
> > Unschooling works the same with all kinds of kids. The labels
> don't help.
> > He will do better (though it's too late) without thinking there's
> something
> > wrong with him.
> >
> > -=-As for that, some of my most favorite people in this world
> (past and
> > present) were diagnosed similarly.-=-
> >
> >> >
> > Sandra
> >
> There are two sides to the "label" thing. Getting my label was one
> of the best things to ever happen to me. It saved me from confusion,
> isolation, and suicide! I finally knew that it wasn't me, it was
> just something that seemed out of control at the time, but is very
> managable. Getting a label helped me know where to go for help, let
> me know I was not alone, and gave me the drive and tools to help
> others. I didn't feel "whole and good and right" until AFTER I was
> diagnosed.
> On the flip side: I don't tell people my label, unless and until I
> need to show them where the uncertainty is coming from, and it will
> improve our relationship. I have learned how to deal with this very
> well, and so, thus far it has only been three people I have told
> (not counting internet).
> By the way my label is aspergers.
>
> Honor
>

six_morebooks

Thank you for your response.

> -=-You used "she" as the subject of that sentence, as though she did
> something, but the grounding and loss of privilege came from you,
> the mom, right?-=-
> -=-How would 'we grounded her' sound different? How can I take
> blockages out that I don't know exist?

I actually talked with my daughter about your comment and she showed me completely
different way to interpret it! (I fall into wonder at how incredibly bright, intiutive and
creative she is). At times, I am engulfed with the feeling of extreme vulnerability when
expressing my thoughts on subjects I care deeply about; I am grateful for the opportunity
to keep learning from you.



--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> > -=-Well, the sad truth is that I have many 'blockages' that I can only
> > overcome in time and through exercises like the ones I'm
> > experiencing today.-=-
> >
> Changing thoughts is more important than time or exercise.
> That's what I'm asking you to consider--that the words you've chosen are
> revealing things you might not have noticed.
>
> -=- I truly didn't mean to offend anyone,
> but somehow I feel like I just got 'my beads read to me'.-=-
>
> I notice now you've only been on the list for three days. We ask that
> people read for two weeks. If you didn't get a "welcome to the list" e-mail that
> said that, please let us know so we can remedy that.
>
> I'm not the least bit offended, and I'm sorry you seem to have been. The
> ideas are for discussing. The discussion can help you change if you let it
> wash over you and think about it instead of resisting it.
>
> -=-The "kicking and screaming" euphamism refers to the fact, and I
> don't think I'm alone in this, that learning to do what is right is
> not always easy or fun (not to mention scary) - at least it hasn't
> been in my experience.-=-
>
> How would you think it's right if it's hard and not fun? If unschooling
> doesn't feel good to you, don't do it. It won't work. If you're doing what
> you don't want to do, don't. It won't work. We can probably help you enjoy
> unschooling and find the ease and the fun, if you want to.
>
> -=-
> It is my better judgement to find out what these wonderful people
> I'm supposed to be guiding - really need.-=-
>
> But if you live lightly and openly, you won't need to find out what they
> really need. If you give them the freedom to pick and choose and explore and
> inquire, THEY can find out what they really need. You don't need to figure out
> what they really need to eat, you just need to make a variety of foods
> available and let them choose what they need. Same with learning anything.
>
> -=-You used "she" as the subject of that sentence, as though she did
> something, but the grounding and loss of privilege came from you,
> the mom, right?-=-
> -=-How would 'we grounded her' sound different? How can I take
> blockages out that I don't know exist?
>
> Keith was in a car accident once. He was asleep in the front seat, not
> driving, not awake. The mother of the woman who was driving called me and it was
> clear from the questions she was asking that she thought Keith had been
> driving. I said no, no--MARGARET was driving. I heard Margaret tell the story
> a few days later, and she said "The car wrecked." Had she said "I wrecked
> the car," even her own mother would have gotten the picture. <g> By making
> the car the subject of that statement, the performer of the action, Margaret
> dodged confronting and admitting her own part in what happened. "I wrecked the
> car." The car didn't just wreck.
>
> And similarly, you told us that your daughter kept ending up grounded, and
> losing privileges.
> Your daughter didn't do that. Those things weren't natural, inevitable
> consequences.
>
>
> I don't think you believe they were inevitable. They were consequences
> imposed by your or your husband or both. And so when you're in a place (like
> this list) where we're discussing changing from one way of thinking and seeing
> and being to another, the clearer you can be with your thoughts and the way you
> express them, the closer you'll be to a newer, better way. The clearer you
> are, the more clearly people can help you see the next stepping stone.
>
> -=- I thought, still think, as a diagnosis its
> a tool for helping me see how he thinks and better connect with him.-=-
>
> Unschooling works the same with all kinds of kids. The labels don't help.
> He will do better (though it's too late) without thinking there's something
> wrong with him.
>
> -=-As for that, some of my most favorite people in this world (past and
> present) were diagnosed similarly.-=-
>
> I bet every single one of them would have been happier to have felt whole and
> good and right instead of feeling "diagnosed."
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Linda Knauff

> The trouble was, she kept telling me something was "wrong" with her and she
> wanted to find out what it was! At age 12, she asked if there were any
> tests out there she could take to find out what was making her feel so different
> and possibly, depressed.
>

How do you treat her differently now than before?

Sandra


That's a very good question. I am not sure how to answer--as there are many ways I treat her differently than before. Mostly, it's more acceptance of how she relates to the world, and a specific understanding of her confusion in the world. It's also knowing where to step in and assist and where to step back and let her figure things out on her own. Before, I was in a constant state of parental confusion because I wasn't sure where the behaviors were coming from and why they were "better" on some days and "worse" on others. It can seem, to others, that people on the spectrum are being inconsiderate on purpose, when it is really just social or communication or sensory or anxiety issues. I blamed myself for bad parenting when things were bad, and that, in turn, caused bad parenting. Now I can see the patterns to the behaviors much more clearly and react more appropriately.
Because we went through the testing and the results together, we have a common framework to start our discussions when things aren't going well. We can be proactive with issues, now that we know them specifically, by, say, talking about characters in books we read or movies we've seen that have the same struggles, and how they worked through them or simply adapted and lived with them. I also understand how difficult certain things really are for her, and I am much more likely to be there cheering her on when she decides to stretch herself.

I guess all in all, I am more understanding and more positive, less confrontational and impatient with her than before the diagnosis. Maybe I could have come to the same place another way, eventually. But, for us, the testing was a step in the right direction. My daughter doesn't see the results as a label, but instead, as an explanation for behaviors that were strange and uncontrollable. Now that she knows where they stem from, she can choose, throughout her life, whether to address them or not. The results don't make us try to "fix" her, just understand and accept and dwell more on her unique abilities. Because as she well knows, those of us with the greatest struggles also can have the greatest gifts.

Linda




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

It can seem, to others, that people on the spectrum are being inconsiderate on purpose, when it is really just social or communication or sensory or anxiety issues. I blamed myself for bad parenting when things were bad, and that, in turn, caused bad parenting. Now I can see the patterns to the behaviors much more clearly and react more appropriately.

**********************************

Oh, I can totally relate to this part of your post. The parental confusion is a real problem. Trying to differentiate where the behavior comes from is difficult with some children, and if you guess wrong, you might end up making bad parenting choices in the sense that you are trying to address the behavior without knowing what the need is. And kids can't always articulate their need. Behaviors can look like they are discipline problems, and if you are already unschooling, it can really be deflating.

Sometimes a diagnosis is what tells you what the needs are. And it can really affirm you as a parent so that you know its not necessarily your parenting that is the problem. Then you can find better information on how to address the needs that are unique to the diagnosis.

Kristen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

six_morebooks

Actually, we've been working on our relationship all during these past years, but I knew
this year that if I didn't take make better choices for our lives, our relationship would
disintigrate to the point of non-existence. Sadly, I've been in denial.

When I looked back with honesty about when I began to notice we were loosing our
connection, I had to admit it really was about 4rth grade. We put her in a different school,
that was a little better, then changed to yet another school and she began to thrive again -
briefly.

I'm looking back at the decisions I made and believe me, I ache. I was raised in poverty
both economically and emotionally. I thought I was doing what was best for her by
exposing her to the social atmosphere found in public schools. Letting her go were I
couldn't. It was wrong. All she really wanted was to be with me, but please understand, I
didn't think I could possibly be enough for her.

Confronting what I consider now how I've ignored her true needs, has been a painful,
embarrasing and shameful realization. When she was in my womb, I wanted her so very
much to love and cherish. And we did, for many years our learning, reading, exploring
music and cultures different than our own; that was our mainstay. My fears about not
being able to provide more for her and in truth, my husbands expectations, led me to
conclude that I needed to be in the job market.

Last year, I finally decided to stop the insanity and do something drastic no matter what
the cost - take both of our children out of public schools. I was terrified, but convinced we
did not and should not have to lose our family to education. Fortunately, my husband was
very supportive and feels healing our family is of far more importance than our financial
income. No small thing for him either since his childhood home was similar to mine. (By
the way, our school district is considered one of the best in our area and the high school
touts its 'Blue Ribbon' status far and wide. Needless to say we are surrounding by athletes,
and intense parental involvement in all things school related.)

Seeing a psychologist who works with families like ours and understands so many of the
dynamics that enter into our decisions and not having to ever return to her high school,
our daughter's attitude and spirit seems to have helped her recapture something of her
younger years, a thoughtful, curious, creative and incredible human being. I'm incredibly
grateful that she hasn't turned away from me, and that our relationship is showing signs
of healing, growth and forgiveness.

Deb

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@e...>
wrote:
>
> And the Parent-Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach by Myra
> Kirshenbaum
>
>
> On Nov 26, 2005, at 4:40 PM, averyschmidt wrote:
>
> > I believe you said she was 17yo- which means there isn't a whole lot
> > of time left to repair your relationship, and if I were you that would
> > be my top priority... WAY above academic concerns.
> > Has she (or have you) read The Teenage Liberation Handbook?
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/28/05 6:15:06 PM, formacies@... writes:


> -=-As a mom, I've tried to cherish
> my children the best way I know how, but if I don't know what makes their
> hearts fly, I
> don't feel I can be as helpful to them on their journeys.-=-
>

It seems that unschooling will work with or without designatiions, that you
can discover what makes their hearts fly without medical (or psychological or
educational) diagnoses.

On the other hand...
-=-He was, apparently, believing
something really was wrong with him (we were stunned and devestated to learn
that he
felt this way about himself).-=-

I have a friend who has probably never been diagnosed Asperger's but I'd bet
she would be. Unfortunately she seems to see nothing wrong with herself
whatsoever. She decided long ago that her parents were just mean and stupid and
that everyone around her is inferior to her and anyone who doesn't understand
her isn't worth messing with, and her solution to enteratining is to just
invite everyone she knows and let them sort it out. So she invites sworn enemies
and stalker/stalkee and newly divorced couples because she admits she
wouldn't be able to figure out who not to invite, so she carefully invites
everyone. If she realizes that someone has been invited without a
potentially-disasterous counterpart, she thinks she has been discourteous to the counterpart and
hunts him down.

It doesn't seem to be that she likes the fireworks or the turned-down invit
ations. She just doesn't know how else to "be fair."

It might do her some good to consider Asperger's because she might think that
maybe, just maybe, there are others perceiving an aspect of the world that
she's blind to. Maybe they're really not just stupid, and maybe her "fairness"
and oblivion aren't virtues.

Bummer she married one of my best friends, but that's just how life jumps up
and bites you sometimes.

Maybe a balance between thinking something's wrong and realizing that it's
just an array of points on the scales of social skill/awareness, interpersonal
intelligence, capacity for input before sleep is required, whatever-all, is the
ideal.

That's one reason I love (LOVE) to look at unschooling and life in the light
of Gardner's Multiple Intelligence Theory. Some people can't sing, but
that's okay--they can probably remember historical dates and names, and do word
puzzles, and cook. Some can't cook, but can probably play tennis and nurse
wounded birds and fix bikes. Some can't fix bikes, but... well... they can
do something else cool. <g>

I don't need to know whether my kids will ever want to fix bikes. They
haven't yet but might still. There are things they wanted to do today, and I
helped each one of them a time or two, and checked on them between times, and
have been ordering Christmas gifts I think they'll like and use. I don't need
to know more, and they don't need to know more than they know right now. I
can hear Holly laughing as she's talking to Marty in the room above me. Kirby
was here after work for several hours, but is now visiting friends to play
XBox. They're busy and happy and that means they're learning.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/28/05 6:18:08 PM, linda@... writes:


>   I guess all in all, I am more understanding and more positive, less
> confrontational and impatient with her than before the diagnosis.  Maybe I could
> have come to the same place another way, eventually.  But, for us, the testing
> was a step in the right direction.
>

Yours was the first really good explanation of how knowing a label could help
that I've ever read. By "good" I think I mean clearly considered and
unselfish.

Do you think if you had come to unschooling before any of the rest, if you'd
been around people who were saying "all kids are different," and if you had
been hanging out with people who were talking about multiple intelligences
that you might have felt less need to pressure your child and less need to "find
the problem"? (Meaning might there might not have been so stark a problem?)

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/28/05 8:39:28 PM, formacies@... writes:


> -=-Seeing a psychologist who works with families like ours and understands
> so many of the
> dynamics that enter into our decisions and not having to ever return to her
> high school,
> our daughter's attitude and spirit seems to have helped her recapture
> something of her
> younger years, a thoughtful, curious, creative and incredible human
> being.-=-
>

VERY cool that you've found a therapist who isn't pushing school.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Linda Knauff

>>Do you think if you had come to unschooling before any of the rest, if you'd
been around people who were saying "all kids are different," and if you had
been hanging out with people who were talking about multiple intelligences
that you might have felt less need to pressure your child and less need to "find
the problem"? (Meaning might there might not have been so stark a problem?)

Sandra<<

No, because I did know of everything else first. I had my children in a magnet school from k-3 that professed the theory of multiple intelligences. So I read, at that time (and prior to that, in college) all I could find on the theory, though none of the teachers apparently did ;) I felt, from the time my daughter was two, that she processed the world differently than most children(I had been an early childhood teacher for 10 years prior to her birth, and I KNEW all kids were different)-- that she was truly "misunderstanding" the world.

The school considered her typical because she stayed on grade level (though I could see her struggling and hating the environment and becoming seriously depressed by the age of 8 due to social and organizational issues, mostly.) They refused to listen to my concerns. Her pediatrician never felt there was any real "problem,"either.

We began relaxed homeschooling then, with a continual move toward unschooling. By age 11, things were getting rough again, emotionally, for my daughter, (I have discovered her difficulties become more intense at each developmental milestone.) As I became more interested in unschooling, I began emailing lists and private persons, asking advise on unschooling and psychological testing, etc. because I just didn't think labeling was a good thing and I couldn't come to terms with what to do. I didn't get much response at the time.

Finally, I decided to just listen to my daughter. And, at age 12, she definitely articulated her need for an explanation for how she could try SO hard, but just not "get" how to fit in, and why things that came so easily to most other children were so difficult or impossible for her. She also developed some facial ticks, for which we could find no medical explanation. We chose, together, to get her tested, because we were looking for relief from the stress and because she trusted me enough to ask for something as bizarre to our lives as a test.

Believe me, there is nothing worse than sitting in a doctor's office, hearing a person who knows nothing of your daughter's unique specialness, list what is "wrong" with her. But, my daughter, as I said before seemed relieved--like a weight had been lifted from her shoulders--when we reviewed the findings, together. And, though I hated the doctor's arrogance at the time, he was very supportive of not attending school, and did give me some decent advise about handling my daughter's complexities. He didn't push medications, as I had feared. But instead, only offered us the option to consider them under certain circumstances.

Parents who really KNOW their children, really KNOW when something is amiss. That is how I felt--like there was an elephant in the room that no one but my daughter and the 3 other people in her immediate family would acknowledge. Parents who really KNOW their children also listen and act when their children ask for help. Since the diagnosis, I feel as if I know my daughter even better than before--like she and I and her sister and her father have more pieces of the puzzle that is her. Understanding how her mind works has helped us understand our own minds better, too. It has made us all more empathetic, compassionate, and self-evaluative. And at 14, she knows too, that she has parents who, when she opens herself up to them, will help her through her pain, by taking her out of school, or taking her in for testing, or taking her wherever she needs to be taken.

As for unschooling, the diagnosis has helped make that work better,too-- simply because understanding your child to a greater degree can only enrich your relationship with him/her. And I believe that is what unschooling is really about.

Linda



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marge Adams

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/28/05 8:39:28 PM, formacies@c... writes:
>
>
> > -=-Seeing a psychologist who works with families like ours and
understands
> > so many of the
> > dynamics that enter into our decisions and not having to ever
return to her
> > high school,
> > our daughter's attitude and spirit seems to have helped her
recapture
> > something of her
> > younger years, a thoughtful, curious, creative and incredible
human
> > being.-=-
> >
>
> VERY cool that you've found a therapist who isn't pushing school.
>
> Sandra
>

When Jacob (almost 13) was 6-7 years old, he had a counselor who
RECOMMENDED he be pulled from school. He had never had any problems
in school--in fact he excelled (they were talking "Gifted and
Talented") and was well liked by kids and teachers alike. Granted
when he came home, it was like a tornado set down in the middle of
the house and he never saw the point of school in general. She
also "diagnosed" him as having Sensory Integration Dysfunction
(which many autistic people also experience) which was helpful in
explaining some of his behaviors (Why does he chew holes in his
shirts? etc.) I never treated him differently as a result of that
label, and don't think of it at all. (I don't mean to compare it to
Asperger's)

My point is that though they may be few and far between, there are
some great therapists. There are even some that advocate
home/unschooling.

Marge

Rebecca DeLong

Quick question.

Will the prices for tickets be the same as this/last years confrence?
I'm trying to figure out how much i need to start putting aside so that we can come this year. :)

Thanx
~Rebecca



You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help."
-Calvin





---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

You mean the Live and Learn conference, right?
Details will be sent when they're know. Save as much as you did last
year, or more. That's easy. <g> It's over ten months away still.

For those who don't know, there's a whole discussion list just for the
conference, which is a better place to discuss details of that.
[email protected]
Thanks!
==========================================
> Quick question.
>   
>   Will the prices for tickets be the same as this/last years confrence?
>   I'm trying to figure out how much i need to start putting aside so that we
> can come this year. :)
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca DeLong

Thanx for the link. :) I just joined.

I haven't made it to a confrence yet, so I wasn't sure how much to save.

~Rebecca

SandraDodd@... wrote:
You mean the Live and Learn conference, right?
Details will be sent when they're know. Save as much as you did last
year, or more. That's easy. <g> It's over ten months away still.

For those who don't know, there's a whole discussion list just for the
conference, which is a better place to discuss details of that.
[email protected]
Thanks!



You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help."
-Calvin




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