ronkeelog

My son will turn 14 in December and while he has always had a temper, it
seems that the last few months it is just getting worse. We've been
unschooling a few months and slowly let it become of way of life as well-as in
no chores, bedtime, game restrictions etc. I don't know if it's hormones or if
it's because he is free to do what he wants now, but he is becoming
unbearable to live with. For example, we only have one TV that has internet
connection for him to play his Xbox live, which he is usually playing from the
time he wakes up until the time he goes to bed. He has taken to yelling at the
tv or other players when things aren't going right A LOT and I will ask him
nicely to please quiet down and he will usually yell back at me "Mom, just
stop!" (as in stop talking). If we go in there and try to ask him a question or
talk to him, he gets mad and yells at us. We do try not to interrupt his game,
but it isn't always possible. We can't even go into the room to get something
off the shelf without him getting mad, and we aren't even walking in front of
him. There have been a few times that I've asked him to get off the game
because I can't stand listening to him yell any longer. Plus, I don't want his
little brothers and sister to hear or see him act that way either. He's been
hitting his little brothers too. I can't seem to get through to him that he isn't
being respectful to the rest of the family. I'm trying to be very patient with him,
but I don't think my patience is going to hold out long. He just has an "I don't
care attitude". Obviously I can't make him be nice or not do things, but I also
don't think the rest of the family has to put up with this behavior. Has anyone
else had this problem and have any success with dealing with this? I need all
the help I can get.

Thanks,
Faith

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/05 4:18:10 PM, panda@... writes:


> -=-We've been
> unschooling a few months and slowly let it become of way of life as well-as
> in
> no chores, bedtime, game restrictions etc.   -=-
>
If it's only been a few months and you're already restriction-free, maybe
he's worried that you've gone crazy. But if you've talked about it a lot and
he's aware, it could also be that he's frustrated with memories of times you
DID say no and stop and don't. He'll have to work through those memories just
as you need(ed) to think through your own, but his are still fresh and you're
still there.

-=- He has taken to yelling at the
tv or other players when things aren't going right A LOT  and I will ask him
nicely to please quiet down and he will usually yell back at me "Mom, just
stop!" (as in stop talking). -=-

Are you saying it where the other players can hear him? Maybe make a signal
like flashing the light on and off.

Tell him he can play IF HE'S NICE, that the rest of you want to live in a
peaceful house too.

-=- There have been a few times that I've asked him to get off the game
because I can't stand listening to him yell any longer.-=-

I'd tell him the yelling is no good. He's disturbing the rest of the
family.

-=-I can't seem to get through to him that he isn't
being respectful to the rest of the family.  I'm trying to be very patient
with him,
but I don't think my patience is going to hold out long.  He just has an "I
don't
care attitude"-=-

What you're describing is probably true of most kids that age who are in
school. It's not true of most always-unschooled kids. Unfortunately, you have
neither one.

What have you been doing for unschooling activities? Are you doing things
outside the house? Is he involved in any sports or gaming groups or anything?


-=-Obviously I can't make him be nice or not do things, but I also
don't think the rest of the family has to put up with this behavior. -=-

Can you take the younger kids out to do things elsewhere and let him have an
uninterrupted house a few times a week? Then maybe can you take him out and
do something--shop for t-shirts or go to a movie or take him to lunch, without
the younger kids?

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/05 4:18:10 PM, panda@... writes:


> My son will turn 14 in December and while he has always had a temper, it
> seems that the last few months it is just getting worse.  We've been
> unschooling a few months
>

I forgot to ask...

When did he leave school?
Did he want to leave school?
Did he want to homeschool?
Did he agree with unschooling?

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

** I'd tell him the yelling is no good. He's disturbing the rest of the
family. **

Right, but I would add the adviso to have this discussion sometime when
he is not playing.

Would a cheap used TV in a different room work for gaming? (Really old
TVs don't have the right connectors, so I'm not sure how cheaply this
could be done.)

But yeah, my son (only 11) isn't bad tempered during or after
videogaming, and he spends three or more hours playing most days. If he
becomes cranky when he's a teen, we'll discuss his behavior. I wouldn't
just let it go.

Betsy

Faith Pickell

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>In a message dated 9/9/05 4:18:10 PM, panda@... writes:
>
>
>
>
>If it's only been a few months and you're already restriction-free, maybe
>he's worried that you've gone crazy. But if you've talked about it a lot and
>he's aware, it could also be that he's frustrated with memories of times you
>DID say no and stop and don't. He'll have to work through those memories just
>as you need(ed) to think through your own, but his are still fresh and you're
>still there.
>
>
>
****We have talked about it quite a bit and tried unschooling before (my
DH is not too keen on it, but I'm working on him!) and so he knows we
are in the process of it and hope to learn a lot more about it at the
conference next month.

>Are you saying it where the other players can hear him? Maybe make a signal
>like flashing the light on and off.
>
>
>
****No, I don't think they can hear. He just is "not a people person"
so he says, and doesn't want to be around anyone most of the time.

>Tell him he can play IF HE'S NICE, that the rest of you want to live in a
>peaceful house too.
>
>
>
****The few times we've told him to get off and be done for the night
(because he wasn't being nice), he has snuck his game system up to his
room after we have gone to bed. He doesn't care if he gets in trouble.
If he's going to be sneaking around, what's the point in me even saying
anything and making him stop playing?

>-=- There have been a few times that I've asked him to get off the game
>because I can't stand listening to him yell any longer.-=-
>
>I'd tell him the yelling is no good. He's disturbing the rest of the
>family.
>
>
>What you're describing is probably true of most kids that age who are in
>school. It's not true of most always-unschooled kids. Unfortunately, you have
>neither one.
>
>What have you been doing for unschooling activities? Are you doing things
>outside the house? Is he involved in any sports or gaming groups or anything?
>
>
****He not interested in any sports or musical instruments at all. He
really just loves playing his XBOX, Halo 2. He has a couple homeschool
buddies that he gets together with once in a while and they play
together on Xbox live everyday. He just likes to stay home.

>
>
>-=-Obviously I can't make him be nice or not do things, but I also
>don't think the rest of the family has to put up with this behavior. -=-
>
>Can you take the younger kids out to do things elsewhere and let him have an
>uninterrupted house a few times a week? Then maybe can you take him out and
>do something--shop for t-shirts or go to a movie or take him to lunch, without
>the younger kids?
>
>

****He doesn't particularly like his 4 yr old twin brothers, so I do try
to keep them out of his hair. He sleeps until 2 pm and then he is on
his Xbox, so he doesn't really have to deal with them too much. Plus,
he usually does stay home when I have errands to do, so he gets a break
then too. I don't know what to do. It's very frustrating.

Faith

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Faith Pickell

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>In a message dated 9/9/05 4:18:10 PM, panda@... writes:
>
>
>
>
>>My son will turn 14 in December and while he has always had a temper, it
>>seems that the last few months it is just getting worse. We've been
>>unschooling a few months
>>
>>
>>
>
>I forgot to ask...
>
>When did he leave school?
>
>
**after the 4th grade-he would in 8th grade right now

>Did he want to leave school?
>
>

**oh, yes. He was bored out of his mind, and getting himself in trouble
for it.

>Did he want to homeschool?
>
>

**yes

>Did he agree with unschooling?
>
>

**yes, but I'm not sure he really understands the whole concept. He
just knows that he can't be force fed information in order to learn and
I agree. I'm hoping the conference will open his eyes to what it's
really about. And me too! And definitely my DH.

>Faith
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Faith Pickell

Betsy Hill wrote:

>Would a cheap used TV in a different room work for gaming? (Really old
>TVs don't have the right connectors, so I'm not sure how cheaply this
>could be done.)
>
>
>
***We have another small TV that he can take to his room, but he doesn't
have an internet connection, so he will play his Playstation on it
usually or try to get a TV signal. (We don't have cable or a tv antennae)

>But yeah, my son (only 11) isn't bad tempered during or after
>videogaming, and he spends three or more hours playing most days. If he
>becomes cranky when he's a teen, we'll discuss his behavior. I wouldn't
>just let it go.
>
>
>

***I think what it really comes down to is, and he has told me this many
times, is that this is his life (playing his games) and he really does
get so deep into the competition part of it and being a leader to the
others, that he gets frustrated at others goofing off and not following
rules in the game, or when there is "lag" in the game or whatever else
may happen and he starts getting mad. When we've taken the game away
from him in the past, he is really pleasant to be around. He actually
plays with his little brothers, does projects, kitchen experiments,
plays basketball, finds all kinds of things to do and hangs out with the
family and actually TALKS with us nicely. I always hate(d) to see him
return to his games again, because I knew he wouldn't interact with us
anymore and the attitude would return. But, I know he loves to play it
and I want him to be happy. What's a mom to do.......

>Faith
>
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>
>

Jason Holm

Some questions to ask him (one, for your own education into his world, two, to give him alternatives to playing the game - ie research, and three, to lead him to the big question at the end):

1. What causes lag? How could it be diminished or prevented?
2. What rules exist in a particular game? Are they hard-coded rules that are being bypaseed (cheating) or rules set and agreed upon by the players?
3. Did the programmers purposely leave these rules open-ended to give different people freedom to play different ways?
4. If you could change the rules in the program to reflect the rules he wished the others would follow, how would they be implemented (penalties for harming a teammate, more dangerous levels that require attention if the others are to survive long enough to play at all...)

Which all lead to a question:
5. Have you ever thought about programming your own game?

Granted, he may still come back with "no", but may get him thinking in one direction or another (such as "did the developers know that my friends would be goofing around, and how did THEY plan for it?")

Can't hurt. :)

-Jason

Faith Pickell <panda@...> wrote:
***I think what it really comes down to is, and he has told me this many
times, is that this is his life (playing his games) and he really does
get so deep into the competition part of it and being a leader to the
others, that he gets frustrated at others goofing off and not following
rules in the game, or when there is "lag" in the game or whatever else
may happen and he starts getting mad.
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Deb Lewis

***He has taken to yelling at the tv or other players when things aren't
going right A LOT ***

Do other family members yell when they are frustrated? If you're
working on your car and things aren't going right do you bang stuff and
yell? If so it may be a learned behavior and some calm, respectful
reminders and modeling, over time, will help.

Was his game playing restricted before so that now he's really getting to
play as long as it takes to successfully complete a level? These games
are so challenging it's natural for players to get very frustrated. I
don't think this a trait particular to your son, but to lots of humans
who try to accomplish a difficult task.

Talk to him about the aspects of the game that are so frustrating. Ask
him how he's doing in the game, ask him about the difficult parts,
sympathize with him. Tell him about a frustrating thing you had to work
at a long time. Remind him that it's not impossible that he can do it
and be excited for him when he finally does. Don't fight with him, if
you are demonstrating your disapproval of his yelling and bad temper by
loosing your temper you're not being a good example. Sympathize. When
you hear him yelling go in and ask what's wrong. Maybe he won't want to
talk about it but if you go back a few minutes later with a snack it
might encourage him to calm down.

Is he playing a long time and running out of fuel? Feed him often, take
food to him while he plays.

Can you put the gaming TV in his room and get another TV for the family?
Then if the reminders, sympathy and food take a few weeks to soothe him
he'll be in a place where the rest of the family doesn't have to hear the
yelling.

***If we go in there and try to ask him a question or
talk to him, he gets mad and yells at us.***

If you're going in there to yell at him for yelling I'm not surprised he
yells. <g>
But seriously, he's not yelling at you because he's angry at *you* he's
yelling because he's frustrated at the game and if you sympathize and try
to understand you'll both feel better.

***There have been a few times that I've asked him to get off the game
because I can't stand listening to him yell any longer. ***

If you were working on something that was important to you and you were
becoming frustrated it might help you to take a break, but I don't think
it would help you to be forced by someone else to take a break. I think
you'd feel resentful of that person. He won't learn his own body
signals and healthy responses to stress if you decide when he's had
enough. You could, in a quiet time, remind him that taking a break from
a really stressful situation can help a person think better and be calmer
but you can't force him to be calm.

There are a lot of people who simply give up when they come upon a
challenge. You're son is not one of those people. He has something
inside of him inspiring him to go on no matter how hard it gets and if he
was with FEMA right now in New Orleans rescuing people you'd think that
was an amazing and impressive quality. It is impressive. He just needs
time to learn to cope with the stress that comes from the challenge and
if you set a calm, patient example he will learn that. It's wonderful
that he's fourteen and has a lot of time to learn to cope in the safety
of a loving home.

Deb L

Schuyler Waynforth

--- In [email protected], Deb Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:

> There are a lot of people who simply give up when they come upon a
> challenge. You're son is not one of those people. He has something
> inside of him inspiring him to go on no matter how hard it gets and
if he
> was with FEMA right now in New Orleans rescuing people you'd think that
> was an amazing and impressive quality. It is impressive. He just needs
> time to learn to cope with the stress that comes from the challenge and
> if you set a calm, patient example he will learn that. It's wonderful
> that he's fourteen and has a lot of time to learn to cope in the safety
> of a loving home.
>
> Deb L


What a wonderful way of looking at this. When Simon was little (2 or
3) we visited his grandparents (dh's parents). Simon watched a lot of
television. They had Tom and Jerry videos and Magic Roundabout and
the Flintstones, and he just kept watching television. His grandfather
said "Simon has such an amazing attention span" and I'd been worried
about how they were going to look at his television watching. It
changed the whole way I experienced Simon and television.

Schuyler

Faith Pickell

>Do other family members yell when they are frustrated? If you're
>working on your car and things aren't going right do you bang stuff and
>yell? If so it may be a learned behavior and some calm, respectful
>reminders and modeling, over time, will help.
>
>
>
***Oh, it was definitely learned and we are all working very hard on
this, with gentle reminders and apologies if needed. Yelling at the game
is understandable- It's the yelling at the rest of the family that is
the major issue.

>Was his game playing restricted before so that now he's really getting to
>play as long as it takes to successfully complete a level? These games
>are so challenging it's natural for players to get very frustrated. I
>don't think this a trait particular to your son, but to lots of humans
>who try to accomplish a difficult task.
>
>
>

Talk to him about the aspects of the game that are so frustrating.
Ask him how he's doing in the game, ask him about the difficult parts,

>sympathize with him. Tell him about a frustrating thing you had to work
>at a long time. Remind him that it's not impossible that he can do it
>and be excited for him when he finally does. Don't fight with him, if
>you are demonstrating your disapproval of his yelling and bad temper by
>loosing your temper you're not being a good example. Sympathize. When
>you hear him yelling go in and ask what's wrong. Maybe he won't want to
>talk about it but if you go back a few minutes later with a snack it
>might encourage him to calm down.
>
>
>
****We don't fight with him. We ask him nicely to quiet down and if it
keeps going on (especially if he yells at us for asking him to quiet
down), then we ask him to take a break. We do talk about his game and
rejoice with him when he gets to a higher level. He is a really good
player and we do give him encouragement.

>Is he playing a long time and running out of fuel? Feed him often, take
>food to him while he plays.
>
>
>
****I think food is a big issue. Most days he gets up and immediately
starts playing without eating. Sometimes he only eats dinner and maybe
a snack at night. I usually don't bother to ask him if he wants food,
because I figure he is old enough to make his own meals and he knows
when he is hungry. Plus, I don't want to take a chance of getting
yelled at and then being upset because he is treating me that way. I've
found it's better to just leave him be. It's sad for me, but that is
what works with our particular relationship. I've just learned to let
him come to me if he needs me.

>Can you put the gaming TV in his room and get another TV for the family?
>Then if the reminders, sympathy and food take a few weeks to soothe him
>he'll be in a place where the rest of the family doesn't have to hear the
>yelling.
>
>
>
***He can take the small tv to his room and play, but he doesn't have an
internet connection to play Xbox live which is what he prefers to play.
So he has to play on the tv in the main family room where the rest of us
are in earshot to hear everything.


>If you're going in there to yell at him for yelling I'm not surprised he
>yells. <g>
>But seriously, he's not yelling at you because he's angry at *you* he's
>yelling because he's frustrated at the game and if you sympathize and try
>to understand you'll both feel better.
>
>
>
***We don't go in and yell at him, we just ask him to quiet down.

>If you were working on something that was important to you and you were
>becoming frustrated it might help you to take a break, but I don't think
>it would help you to be forced by someone else to take a break. I think
>you'd feel resentful of that person. He won't learn his own body
>signals and healthy responses to stress if you decide when he's had
>enough. You could, in a quiet time, remind him that taking a break from
>a really stressful situation can help a person think better and be calmer
>but you can't force him to be calm.
>
>
>

***Oh, I know I can't make him be calm and we don't try to. But when his
actions are causing stress to the rest of the family because we are
having to listen to his yelling over and over then we do ask him to take
a break. There isn't much I can do if he gets resentful. I'm not going
to make the rest of us suffer. After a few hours of hearing it, it gets
old.

>There are a lot of people who simply give up when they come upon a
>challenge. You're son is not one of those people. He has something
>inside of him inspiring him to go on no matter how hard it gets and if he
>was with FEMA right now in New Orleans rescuing people you'd think that
>was an amazing and impressive quality. It is impressive. He just needs
>time to learn to cope with the stress that comes from the challenge and
>if you set a calm, patient example he will learn that. It's wonderful
>that he's fourteen and has a lot of time to learn to cope in the safety
>of a loving home.
>
>
>
***He is definitely headstrong when he wants to be. It is a great
quality in that he stands up for himself. I didn't like it when he was
younger and I would try to discipline him or make him do schoolwork and
he would look at me and say "NO!". Glad those days are gone. : )

Faith



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>

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In a message dated 9/10/05 3:36:55 PM, panda@... writes:


> -=-I  usually don't bother to ask him if he wants food,
> because I  figure he is old enough to make his own meals and he knows
> when he is hungry.-=-
>
Kids are "old enough" to do a lot of things that their parents should do for
them if the parents want to have a really good relationship.

I bet you're old enough to do some of the things your husband does for you.
I don't know what. Mow the lawn or change the oil.

I'm old enough to get a chair and climb up and get things off top shelves,
but I still ask my husband or my sons (now that they're taller than I am) to do
it for me. It's safer, and it's easier for them than for me.

-=-I  usually don't bother to ask him if he wants food,-=-

Don't ask him.
(And it shouldn't be a bother.)

Just make food and take it to him, and food he can eat while he's playing.
Not fried eggs; a scrambled egg sandwich maybe. Not spaghetti; maybe pizza
in small slices. Sandwiches cut in quarters.

You don't HAVE to do that.
I bet life would be better at your house if you did.


-=-Plus, I don't want to take a chance of getting
yelled at and then being upset because he is treating me that way.-=-

You're old enough to understand why he's upset.
If for many years you had restrictions on him, and now you've admitted you
wish you hadn't. you're old enough to take some frustration as penance.

-=- I've found it's better to just leave him be. -=-

Better for you?
If he's hungry, sometimes only eating dinner, and being grouchy, he needs
more food.
If you KNOW he needs more food and you are withholding that offer of food
because you're afraid he MIGHT hurt your feelings, that's not the best you can
do.


-=-It's sad for me, but that is what works with our particular
relationship. -=-

If your particuler relationship worked well, you wouldn't have brought it up
here, I'm thinking.

-=- I've just learned to let him come to me if he needs me.-=-

By the time he comes to you you're both really angry.
When you're not angry, take him some good food. Protein. Drinks. Maybe,
if he likes them, smoothies or milk shakes.

-=-He can take the small tv to his room and play, but he doesn't have an
internet connection to play Xbox live which is what he prefers to play. 
So he has to play on the tv in the main family room where the rest of us
are in earshot to hear everything.
-=-

You've said that. Is there not a phone line in his room? Can you run one?
Can you get one of the plug-into-the-outlet phone jack adaptors?

-=- There isn't much I can do if he gets resentful.  I'm not going
to make the rest of us suffer. -=-

If you do't figure out how to make peace with and around him, you ARE going
to make the rest of the family suffer. Things can be made better. Try not
to say things like "have to."
http://sandradodd.com/haveto

It might help to read that.

I don't sense from your writing that you feel you're making choices, but that
you're just reacting to the irritating world.

He's 13, too, I think; not 14.
He's barely not 12, then.

If you don't cut him some slack for puberty, don't expect him to cut you any
for menopause. He's going through the biggest change in his life (barring
serious injury) and he needs love and patience and space and food.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faith Pickell

>Which all lead to a question:
>5. Have you ever thought about programming your own game?
>
>
He actually got a game programming book for teens a while back and has
messed around with it a little bit. Him and 2 other homeschool buddies
are in the process of doing game reviews for a website my DH built
called Just Gamers. He is struggling a bit with getting his reviews
done because he gets so involved with playing the game, that it's hard
for him to stop and write down what he needs to for the review!

Faith

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In a message dated 9/10/05 4:02:52 PM, panda@... writes:


> -=-He is struggling a bit with getting his reviews
> done because he gets so involved with playing the game, that it's hard
> for him to stop and write down what he needs to for the review!-=-
>

Could you take dictation?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

> ****We don't fight with him. We ask him nicely to quiet down and
>if it keeps going on (especially if he yells at us for asking him
>to quiet down), then we ask him to take a break.

Sometimes if my son is getting frustrated, and hitting the computer
or whatever, and is complaining about something in the game i'll
just say something like "That sucks, i hope you can figure it out."
Just commiserate with him.

> ****I think food is a big issue. Most days he gets up and
>immediately starts playing without eating. Sometimes he only eats
>dinner and maybe a snack at night. I usually don't bother to ask
>him if he wants food, because I figure he is old enough to make
>his own meals and he knows when he is hungry. >

I think this is a mistake. My son (will be 9 yo in late Oct)is
REALLY into online RPGs (City of Heroes and Everquest being his
current favorites, and something called Second Life)...he almost
never takes time out to eat on his own, unless he is just really
bored with the game. I am always bringing him something to eat, i
dont always ask what he wants. In fact, its the easiest way to get
things like fruit and cut up veggies into him....some grapes,
olives, carrots with ranch dressing, and apples with sugar (or
splenda)and cinnamon, all spread out on a plate to be munched on as
he wants...it always all disappears eventually. Bottles of water
too. If i was really busy....lets say, i dunno working on some
important project, or painting the house, or doing taxes or
something...i might not want to stop and make a sandwhich, and would
really appreciate someone making something tasty and easy to eat.

I bet if you start bringing him finger food to eat he will be nicer.
Hungry people tend to be grumpy, and it will help i bet to keep his
blood sugar level steady. Roll up cream cheese in turkey lunchmeat,
or make peanut butter and jelly sandwhich squares and serve with
milk. Maybe a burrito. Whatever you know he likes, just make it
something he can pick up easily and put down, and preferably
something that can be eaten if it gets cold from sitting.

> ***He can take the small tv to his room and play, but he doesn't
>have an internet connection to play Xbox live which is what he
>prefers to play. So he has to play on the tv in the main family
>room where the rest of us are in earshot to hear everything.

If there is ANY way to get an internet connection in his room,
please try it. I am not sure why that hasnt happened, whether its
money or there not being a hookup ability or whatever. But i really
really think that if he can make his room his game space, and has a
loving mom checking in, bringing yummy food, it will help. It might
not solve all the problems, but its a place to start for sure.


> ***We don't go in and yell at him, we just ask him to quiet down.

I don't want to judge, because i've popped in and said "quiet down"
too...but if you look at it from his perspective it might seem like,
he is in a really tough part of the game, something dire just
happened, he is expressing very real frustration, anger, etc, and
mom (who doesnt come in to bring him refreshments)comes in
with "quiet down" not "man, what happened? you lost your XYZ
weapon?! Bummer!"

What happens when you just go watch him play for a few minutes or
ask him questions about the game (not when he is super busy in the
game)?

> ***Oh, I know I can't make him be calm and we don't try to. But
>when his actions are causing stress to the rest of the family
>because we are having to listen to his yelling over and over then
>we do ask him to take a break. There isn't much I can do if he
>gets resentful. I'm not going to make the rest of us suffer.
>After a few hours of hearing it, it gets old.

I think you might want to look for some creative solutions that will
meet both his needs and the needs of the family. I take care of my
mom part of the week at her house (she's disabled), and my son will
spend hours in the back bedroom on his computer playing RPGs (online
role playing games for those that dont know)...he is a pretty
active/hyper kid, and when he is in the back bedroom we can
*constantly* hear him kicking his feet, moving the chair,
bangbangbang...it would drive me crazy. I would constantly yell from
the other room "stooooooop kicking!!!!" he would say "ok sorry" and
then start again a minute later (because he can't help it). I
finally decided it was stupid to get frustrated over something that
wasnt going to change. So i got some tennis balls, cut a hole in
them, and put the chair feet into them (its a wooden dining chair)--
a trick that i saw when seamus spent 2.5 days in school this year,
thats how they kept the desks from wobbling)...i didnt have to worry
about the wood chair hurting the hardwood floor from all his moving
about, and it REALLY muffled the sound. I also gave him a big pillow
to put at his feet under the desk, so he could "bounce" but more
quietly. I'm thinking about getting some walkie talkies so i can
quietly say "hey can you sing more quietly" or whatever, rather than
having to yell, or get frustrated from getting up twenty times to
ask that he be quiet.

Katherine

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/10/2005 4:36:55 PM Central Standard Time,
panda@... writes:

Plus, I don't want to take a chance of getting
yelled at and then being upset because he is treating me that way. I've
found it's better to just leave him be. It's sad for me, but that is
what works with our particular relationship. I've just learned to let
him come to me if he needs me


~~~
Not much of a "relationship" if you ask me.

I'm not against TV or xbox or marathon Halo 2 sessions. I am against
yelling and disrespecting the family and being a tyrant and causing disruption and
abusing little brothers. Making the whole family walk around on eggshells?
Nope, not happening in my house.

Fourteen yo boys are often angry for many and no reason. They're going
through a lot of changes. They can't articulate how they feel all the time.
Sometimes their expressons are inappropriate. Even so, I don't believe I'd let
that behavior go on, even if it meant a long break from the xbox.

I'd look into the food issue, too, but that would not be the only thing.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brandie

--- Faith Pickell <panda@...> wrote:
> ***He can take the small tv to his room and play,
> but he doesn't have an
> internet connection to play Xbox live which is what
> he prefers to play.
> So he has to play on the tv in the main family room
> where the rest of us
> are in earshot to hear everything.

Are you willing to do what it will take to get the
interet connection in his room? For a child who loves
his xbox as much as he does, I would think this should
be a priority. What kind of internet access do you
have now?


Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com





______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

Faith Pickell

There wasn't a need for it and he's never asked to have it because he
can play on the big screen in the family room. Our internet is wireless.

Faith


Brandie wrote:

>--- Faith Pickell <panda@...> wrote:
>
>
>>***He can take the small tv to his room and play,
>>but he doesn't have an
>>internet connection to play Xbox live which is what
>>he prefers to play.
>>So he has to play on the tv in the main family room
>>where the rest of us
>>are in earshot to hear everything.
>>
>>
>
>Are you willing to do what it will take to get the
>interet connection in his room? For a child who loves
>his xbox as much as he does, I would think this should
>be a priority. What kind of internet access do you
>have now?
>
>
>Brandie
>http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
>http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
>
>
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Faith Pickell

tuckervill2@... wrote:

>
>In a message dated 9/10/2005 4:36:55 PM Central Standard Time,
>panda@... writes:
>
>Plus, I don't want to take a chance of getting
>yelled at and then being upset because he is treating me that way. I've
>found it's better to just leave him be. It's sad for me, but that is
>what works with our particular relationship. I've just learned to let
>him come to me if he needs me
>
>
>~~~
>Not much of a "relationship" if you ask me.
>
>
***No, it's not and never really has been.

>
>I'm not against TV or xbox or marathon Halo 2 sessions. I am against
>yelling and disrespecting the family and being a tyrant and causing disruption and
>abusing little brothers. Making the whole family walk around on eggshells?
>Nope, not happening in my house.
>
>Fourteen yo boys are often angry for many and no reason. They're going
>through a lot of changes. They can't articulate how they feel all the time.
>Sometimes their expressons are inappropriate. Even so, I don't believe I'd let
>that behavior go on, even if it meant a long break from the xbox.
>
>
****He's so much easier to get along with when he doesn't have his games
to play. But, I would be the tyrant if I took them away, so I think he
just needs to learn to control himself a little better.

Faith

>
>
>
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Faith Pickell

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>In a message dated 9/10/05 4:02:52 PM, panda@... writes:
>
>
>
>
>>-=-He is struggling a bit with getting his reviews
>>done because he gets so involved with playing the game, that it's hard
>>for him to stop and write down what he needs to for the review!-=-
>>
>>
>>
>
>Could you take dictation?
>
>

>*****Umm, yes, but I'm not usually up after midnight, which is when he does this stuff!
>
>

>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
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>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/10/05 6:13:17 PM, panda@... writes:


> -=-There wasn't a need for it and he's never asked to have it because he
> can play on the big screen in the family room.  Our internet is wireless.-=-
>
Can't you get a wireless adaptor for the XBox?

-=->Could you take dictation?=-=-

-=-****Umm, yes, but I'm not usually up after midnight, which is when he does
this stuff! -=-

Does WHAT stuff?

You said he could write reviews. He's not writing reviews. Maybe when
you're awake and he's awake he could speak it to you and you could take it down
and edit, he could look it over, and it could go on his dad's site.

Is "this stuff" after midnight the yelling in the family room?

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faith Pickell

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>-=- I've found it's better to just leave him be. -=-
>
>Better for you?
>If he's hungry, sometimes only eating dinner, and being grouchy, he needs
>more food.
>If you KNOW he needs more food and you are withholding that offer of food
>because you're afraid he MIGHT hurt your feelings, that's not the best you can
>do.
>
>

>***He has asked many times for everyone to just leave him alone. So I leave him alone as much as I can. I don't KNOW that he needs more food. I don't usually offer my other 3 kids food either. They let me know when they are hungry, because THEY know what their bodies want. It would be a waste of food to bring him food if he didn't eat it. Does that make me a bad parent because I'm not offering them food?
>
>
>-=-It's sad for me, but that is what works with our particular
>relationship. -=-
>
>If your particuler relationship worked well, you wouldn't have brought it up
>here, I'm thinking.
>
>
>
****It's one I've had to accept in order to HAVE a relationship with him
that will keep the peace between us. Would I like a better
relationship? Yes. Maybe one day we will.

>By the time he comes to you you're both really angry.
>When you're not angry, take him some good food. Protein. Drinks. Maybe,
>if he likes them, smoothies or milk shakes.
>
>
>

****Oh, there isn't any anger, just hurt feelings on my part at times.
He just wants to be left alone, so I leave him alone. I get dirty looks
for just saying "good afternoon" to him when he wakes up, most days. I
never know when a good time is to go to him, so I don't anymore. That's
why I said I just let him come to me.

>-=-He can take the small tv to his room and play, but he doesn't have an
>internet connection to play Xbox live which is what he prefers to play.
>So he has to play on the tv in the main family room where the rest of us
>are in earshot to hear everything.
>-=-
>
>You've said that. Is there not a phone line in his room? Can you run one?
> Can you get one of the plug-into-the-outlet phone jack adaptors?
>
>
>
****We've not done the internet in his room because we had some "issues"
with it and him using it when we lived in our old house. I just
haven't been able to bring myself to "let go" of this yet

>-=- There isn't much I can do if he gets resentful. I'm not going
>to make the rest of us suffer. -=-
>
>If you do't figure out how to make peace with and around him, you ARE going
>to make the rest of the family suffer. Things can be made better. Try not
>to say things like "have to."
>http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
>It might help to read that.
>
>I don't sense from your writing that you feel you're making choices, but that
>you're just reacting to the irritating world.
>
>He's 13, too, I think; not 14.
>He's barely not 12, then.
>
>If you don't cut him some slack for puberty, don't expect him to cut you any
>for menopause. He's going through the biggest change in his life (barring
>serious injury) and he needs love and patience and space and food.
>
>
>
****I'm sure a lot of it is me, (especially after I read your post to my
DH, and he gave me the "she's right" look). That's why I wrote in. So I
could get ideas. Thanks for your help

Faith






>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Faith Pickell

Does WHAT stuff?

>*****NO! NO! NO! LOL! He goes in his room at night with the little TV and his XBOX or PS2 and goes thru his games and writes his reviews, which means I'm not awake then. Sorry I didn't clarify that.
>
>

>You said he could write reviews. He's not writing reviews. Maybe when
>you're awake and he's awake he could speak it to you and you could take it down
>and edit, he could look it over, and it could go on his dad's site.
>
>Is "this stuff" after midnight the yelling in the family room?
>
>Sandra
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/10/05 7:09:54 PM, panda@... writes:


> -=-I don't usually offer my other 3 kids food either.  They let me know
> when they are hungry, because THEY know what their bodies want.  It would be a
> waste of food to bring him food if he didn't eat it.  Does that make me a bad
> parent because I'm not offering them food? -=-
>

If you have a cranky child who is (by your report) sometimes only eating one
meal a day, yes you know he needs food and yes, in my opinion, you should
offer him food.

A waste of food is NOTHING compared to the loss of a relationship.

-=-  Would I like a better
relationship? Yes.  Maybe one day we will.-=-

How long do you think you have to work on it?
He's 13.

-=- I get dirty looks
for just saying "good afternoon" to him when he wakes up, most days. -=-

Do you say it pointedly or sarcastically, making the point that it's
afternoon?
If I woke up after noon and someone said that to me, I would probably give a
dirty look too.

How about trying "How'd you sleep?" or "Do you want me to make you some
pancakes?"

-=- I never know when a good time is to go to him, so I don't anymore. 
That's
why I said I just let him come to me.-=-

Several moms who are having better relationships than you are are offering
ideas that you're rejecting.

-=-We've not done the internet in his room because we had some "issues"
with it and him using it  when we lived in our old house.  I just
haven't been able to bring myself to "let go" of this yet-=-

How many years before he's 18?
How long so you plan to wait before you let it go?

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faith Pickell

>
>
>
>If you have a cranky child who is (by your report) sometimes only eating one
>meal a day, yes you know he needs food and yes, in my opinion, you should
>offer him food.
>
>A waste of food is NOTHING compared to the loss of a relationship.
>
>
>
**** Okay, I'm really trying hard to understand this, but it is getting
me confused. Please bear with me. I thought that unschoolers
believed their children can make their own choices when it comes to
learning, eating, sleeping, playing etc. so they may listen to what
their bodies are telling them. So my thought has been that if he is
hungry then he would listen to his body and get some food for himself.
My baby comes to me when she wants to nurse, and my little boys go get
their own snack or ask me to get them some food when they are hungry.
I'm wondering if him playing his game (which he obviously is very
involved in) for long stretches and not eating is keeping him from
listening to his body. By me bringing him food, doesn't that show that
I don't trust him to take care of himself? Hmmm...a little lightbulb
went off as I wrote that....I think I realized what you are trying to
say. That I should "strew" food the same way I "strew" items for
possible learning. Is that right? I don't normally have a big problem
with wasting food, but my DH has been out of work for 5 months and we
barely scrape by.

>-=- Would I like a better
>relationship? Yes. Maybe one day we will.-=-
>
>How long do you think you have to work on it?
>He's 13.
>
>
>
****Well, that is why I wrote in so I could get help dealing with his
anger.

>-=- I get dirty looks
>for just saying "good afternoon" to him when he wakes up, most days. -=-
>
>Do you say it pointedly or sarcastically, making the point that it's
>afternoon?
>If I woke up after noon and someone said that to me, I would probably give a
>dirty look too.
>
>How about trying "How'd you sleep?" or "Do you want me to make you some
>pancakes?"
>
>
>
***No, I don't say it mean or sarcastically, because I don't care what
time he wakes up. He usually wakes up around 2 pm, which means it isn't
morning. I've tried the "how'd you sleep" too, with the response of "I
don't know". He just really doesn't like people talking to him first
thing. I just need to remember not to talk to him until he wakes up fully!

>-=- I never know when a good time is to go to him, so I don't anymore.
>That's
>why I said I just let him come to me.-=-
>
>Several moms who are having better relationships than you are are offering
>ideas that you're rejecting.
>
>
>
****Did I reject something? I'm not trying to reject anything, just
trying to understand them and work them through my brain.

>-=-We've not done the internet in his room because we had some "issues"
>with it and him using it when we lived in our old house. I just
>haven't been able to bring myself to "let go" of this yet-=-
>
>How many years before he's 18?
>How long so you plan to wait before you let it go?
>
>
>

****Well, I'm taking baby steps with this unschooling/parenting
process. And actually, he can get on the internet whenever he wants
with the main family computer. He has his own password to get in and he
could easily do what he wants especially since he is up most of the
night by himself. So, I guess I have let go of it. My DH is looking
into putting internet in his room. Hmmm, then he'll never have any
reason to come out of his room, except to get his cat, and take the
occasional shower, especially if I'm bringing him food. I guess I'll
have to put a shelf in his bathroom so I can "strew" things on it .
Time to dig out the Uncle John Bathroom reader. There is a wealth of
information in those things! Thanks for all your help .

Faith

Betsy Hill

** I'm wondering if him playing his game (which he obviously is very
involved in) for long stretches and not eating is keeping him from
listening to his body. **

I think so. There can be very intense concentration involved in
computer gaming or videogaming.

I'm not the kind of person who could ever forget to eat, but (strangely)
some people are that way. It's often been recommended here to bring
food to kids who are intensely involved in something for so many hours
that they must be getting hungry. And some people can get especially
cranky if they go to long without consuming protein.

I don't like to waste food either, so if that really bugs you, you could
put out the kind of sandwich you might want for lunch, about 20 minutes
before you would eat. If he doesn't eat it, you could. Or cheese and
fruit could be recycled out to other family members IF not eaten fairly
quickly. A little trial and error won't cost really big dollars.

Unemployment is really stressful for everyone. Please take the time to
do something that makes you feel happy. (Something cheap, I mean.)

Best wishes,
Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/05 11:55:52 AM, panda@... writes:


> Please bear with me.  I thought that unschoolers
> believed  their children can make their own choices when it comes to
> learning, eating, sleeping, playing etc.  so they may listen to what
> their bodies are telling them. 
>

Not all unschoolers believe the same thing. There is no monolithic belief.

Those who believe listening to their bodies is a good idea are recommending
against FORCE feeding, against pressing people to "clean their plates" or no
dessert, against forbidding snacks, against insisting they "take one more bite."

Nowhere in that are people saying "Just stop feeding them."

-=-I'm wondering if him playing his game (which he obviously is very
involved in) for long stretches and not eating is keeping him from
listening to his body.-=-

Probably.
When I'm really involved in something intensely I might not notice that I'm
hungry, and I'll get "a second wind" and not be tired if it's really
fascinating. I might all of a sudden notice I need to go to the bathroom RIGHT AWAY,
whereas if I'd been doing something less interesting I might've gone earlier,
and maybe gone to sleep afterwards.

I hope you're not suggesting making his life more boring so that the most
interesting things would be wondering whether he was hungry or needed to pee.

That reminds me of teachers painting over or papering windows so that the
students can't see outside, lest what's outside be more interesting than the
teacher.

-=- By me bringing him food, doesn't that show that
I don't trust him to take care of himself? -=-

I think it would show that you think about him, that you care about him and
that you love him.

-=- I don't normally have a big problem
with wasting food,  but my DH has been out of work for 5 months and we
barely scrape by.-=-

Don't take him any food he doesn't like, certainly.
Don't take something fragile that will go bad if it sits for half an hour.

-=- I don't normally have a big problem
with wasting food,  but my DH has been out of work for 5 months and we
barely scrape by.-=-

I don't think you mentioned that when you first discussed behavioral issues.

Has your time of unschooling coincided with unemployment and stress?

-=-Hmmm, then he'll never have any
reason to come out of his room, except to get his cat, and take the
occasional shower, especially if I'm bringing him food.  I guess I'll
have to put a shelf in his bathroom so I can "strew" things on it . -=-

This seems overly negative and defeatist.
If your attitude at home is as it shows in this exchange, maybe you should
work on being more positive, optimistic, and joyful.

Strewing should not be one of your main priorities at this point. You might
want to work on being a person worth coming out of a room to hang out with,
visit, talk to, have lunch with.

If you make good meals and invite him out honestly sweetly and nicely without
judgment and resentment he will probably come out, at least sometimes. Or
you could invite him, eat, and if he shows up partway through or later, have
his portion saved for him.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Faith Pickell panda@...]

**** Okay, I'm really trying hard to understand this, but it is getting
me confused. Please bear with me. I thought that unschoolers
believed their children can make their own choices when it comes to
learning, eating, sleeping, playing etc. so they may listen to what
their bodies are telling them. So my thought has been that if he is
hungry then he would listen to his body and get some food for himself.
My baby comes to me when she wants to nurse, and my little boys go get
their own snack or ask me to get them some food when they are hungry.
I'm wondering if him playing his game (which he obviously is very
involved in) for long stretches and not eating is keeping him from
listening to his body. By me bringing him food, doesn't that show that
I don't trust him to take care of himself? Hmmm...a little lightbulb
went off as I wrote that....I think I realized what you are trying to
say. That I should "strew" food the same way I "strew" items for
possible learning. Is that right?

-=-=-=-=-

I tend to get easily consumed by things. <g> Pretty much anything I do can easily take over *everything*!

I'm 45 years old. I know better---certainly. But while I'm making name badges, I'll sit at this computer for HOURS typing and correcting and printing and filing. Ben will come home and ask whether I've eaten at all today. After getting mad that he even bothers to walk in and ASK.... <G>

I remodelled and old house. HOURS stripping woodwork. I'd start at 8:00 am and work until late at night. I'd quit long enough to fix supper and clean up, but then be right back to stripping or sanding wood. At midnight, Ben would walk downstairs and remind me what time it was. I'd say that I would just do *this last little bit* until he'd come back down at 2:00 am and remind me that I'd already done *just that little bit* and it was time for bed.

Sometimes I schedule several dogs to be groomed one after the other. I may be out in the groom room for *hours*---no food, no rest. I just do it until it's done---kind of my Modus Operandi! <g>

It's not uncommon for me to get huge hunger head-aches, get ultra grouchy, and yet get a LOT done.

So I know EXACTLY where your son's coming from. <bwg>

But now *I* know better. (My older son (17) saw me at the computer just now and offered to go get me a burger---'cause he knows how I am!)

I happily accept food when Ben or one of the boys offers. I will take a break to swim or jump on the trampoline or walk around the block with a dog.

But I'm *45*!!! ....and I've been on these lists for years now! <G>

I take monkey platters to Duncan (9) and his friends all the time. He's learning to ask for them now---when or *before* he needs them. THAT's what you'll see if you take care of him now. He'll learn that he'll feel better, think more clearly, and play/work better/harder when he's fueled. But he can't do that alone (in *MY* exerience, anyway!). Not all of a sudden. Not when he's consumed by what he's doing.

Yes, we eat when we're hungry. But we don't always think that food is necessarily *what* we need when are struggling to get to another level (of whatever). Sometimes we need a reminder---or even better: a GIFT.

And the more you can give, the more he'll make the connections.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org





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Faith Pickell

>I hope you're not suggesting making his life more boring so that the most
>interesting things would be wondering whether he was hungry or needed to pee.
>
>
>
****Oh God no! If anything I'm trying to make his life happier yet
trying to keep peace in the family as well.

>-=- I don't normally have a big problem
>with wasting food, but my DH has been out of work for 5 months and we
>barely scrape by.-=-
>
>I don't think you mentioned that when you first discussed behavioral issues.
>
>Has your time of unschooling coincided with unemployment and stress?
>
>
****Yes. Unschooling needed to happen because of stress going on. I
didn't need the stress of trying to get Logan to do school and fighting
about it with him. So, school was the first thing to go. It was really
straining our relationship. My DH doesn't really want to unschool, so
I'm having issues with him as well.

>-=-Hmmm, then he'll never have any
>reason to come out of his room, except to get his cat, and take the
>occasional shower, especially if I'm bringing him food. I guess I'll
>have to put a shelf in his bathroom so I can "strew" things on it . -=-
>
>
This seems overly negative and defeatist.
If your attitude at home is as it shows in this exchange, maybe you should
work on being more positive, optimistic, and joyful.


***Actually, I wasn't trying to be negative. I should have put a
smiley face at the end. I was actually having funny thoughts of
slipping an interesting article I think he might enjoy underneath his
sandwich or putting a box of modeling clay in the bathroom! : ) I got
the bathroom shelf idea from listening to a radio show you did where you
talked about something interesting one of your boys had read that you
left on the bathroom shelf. I think it's easy to interpret the wrong
thing when reading e-mail. I find that you seem to be very harsh with
your e-mails (to me anyway), when in fact you probably aren't trying to
be. You are just very "seasoned" at this lifestyle and I'm just
supposing you probably get sick of us newbies that haven't quite
"gotten" it yet.

>Strewing should not be one of your main priorities at this point. You might
>want to work on being a person worth coming out of a room to hang out with,
>visit, talk to, have lunch with.
>
>
>
***You make it sound like I'm a hateful bitch. We do talk to each other
and hang out at times. Unfortunately, I have 3 young kids-that totally
adore me by the way-that take up a lot of my time and he doesn't usually
want to be around them.

>Faith
>
>


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>
>
>
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/05 1:24:45 PM, panda@... writes:


> Yes.  Unschooling needed to happen because of stress going on.  I
> didn't need the stress of trying to get Logan to do school and fighting
> about it with him.
>

Did Logan want to unschool?

By "do school" do you mean school at home, or going to school?


By "unschooling needed to happen," I'm afraid you meant just dropping the
school (or school at home) and not replacing it with all the attitudes and
activities and things that unschooling needs to thrive.

-=- So, school was the first thing to go.  It was really
straining our relationship.-=-

Yes, it had strained your relationship. Something had.
It seems from what you've written that you replaced that with neglect,
though.

-=-Actually, I wasn't trying to be negative.   I should have put a
smiley face at the end. -=-

A hundred smiley faces wouldn't negate your choice of words or the fact that
when people here make suggestions you come back with "I thought this..." or
"but he'll yell" or some reason you're not planning to try it.

-=-  I think it's easy to interpret the wrong thing when reading e-mail. -=-

It's very easy for people to show their emotions without realizing they do so
by the phrases they choose and the incidents they choose to relate.

-=- You are just very "seasoned" at this lifestyle and I'm just
supposing you probably get sick of us newbies that haven't quite
"gotten" it yet.-=-

I do prefer people who move quickly toward getting it, for the sake of their
kids.

The more you make this about you and the less you make it about your son's
feelings and how to make them easier and better, the harder it will be for
your family.

Maybe Joyce's page would be the best reading you could do.

Sandra

(From here to the end is a link and a quote from her opening page.)

http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/


Are we there yet?

Conventional parenting focuses on the destination. Joyful living focuses on
the journey.

Good parents have the goal of being better parents. But how do we know if
what we're doing will get us where we want to go?

The problem is that when we focus on the destination, it doesn't help us
decide which path to take. Basically it boils down to what sounds sensible and
whatever works to get us there.

Conventional parenting, which gets accepted as good parenting, is
destination oriented. It's getting kids into college. It's stopping the tantrums. It's
making sure kids stay away from drugs. It's about getting kids from point A to
point B. It's about molding kids into what we think will help them the most.

If there is one thought that will help you understand unschooling and
respectful parenting it is this:
The primary goal is joyful living.

All other goals are secondary.

All decent parents, of course, want their children to be happy. But they
assume that sometimes happiness needs to be sacrificed to get something better.

But for unschooling, peaceful parents meeting any goal must also meet the
goal of living life more joyfully.

If meeting a goal means sacrificing joy, then find a better way to meet the
goal.

It's simple to write, but not so simple to put it into practice! Our heads
are full of "have tos." We're full of fears of what will happen if we don't do
what we "have to." Getting rid of those "have tos" and fears is hard to do!

• The first step is finding something that's better than what you
have.

• The second step is wanting to change.

• The third step is figuring out how to change.


So, as you read along, you may wonder why I suggest that parents basically
make life more difficult for themselves. The reason is because I believe it
leads to a much better place. And that better place is a more joyful life for our
children and our families.

Joyce Fetteroll





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