mother love

I think I need an attitidue adjustment or something.
I don't know. I wanted to continue with the plan of
unschooling my 5 yr old dd. However, as a single mom
going to school myself and trying to make everything
work financially, I've been feeling much pressure to
just put her into the ps this fall for Kindergarten.
It's really difficult when people who are in the same
situation and even vastly better situations
financailly are sending their kids off to school after
having homeschooled/unschooled for several years.
But, that's beside the point. Here, I'm looking at
our individual circumstances.

I work part-time from home less than 20 hrs a week
currently. I also am going to be in grad school 2
nights a week. The fact that school for me is in the
evenings leads me to feel that sending her off to
school is not going to really make much of a
diffference and that if I can find a good support
system (which I already am doing), then I'll still
have the needed time to study and continue to
unschool.

Here's my question: I've signed up for a charter
school that "says" they support unschooling, but when
I spoke with the ES (Education Specialist) last night,
it's clear she really has no clue what unschooling
really means and certainly does not support it, she
fears it in fact. Thing is, in my financial situation
$600/yr would be A LOT to buy some books, or craft
type stuff or let her take ballet or gymnastics or
iceskating (things dd has asked for).

But, after talking to the ES, it seems that quite a
percentage would have to be used for "curriculum"-type
stuff. And that probably reatlistically leaves about
$400 or less for the year for our own discretion.
It's not like i'd use the curriculum anyhow, but would
just buy it to appease the ES and leave it on the
bookshelf.

And now I'm going to whine....I don't want to have to
write down everything we did on every school day in
"educationalese".....I quite enjoy leaving the idea of
"subjects" in the far back of my consciousness where
it belongs. But, there are 6 subjects and they
require me to write what we did every day for those 6
subjects and to hand in a sample once every 20
"school" days from each subject. I'm feeling like I'm
just whining, but it seems like such a huge
interruption of my time and real unschooling to have
to do this stuff. The state does not require it and
I am personally not worried at all about it. DD is a
very curious child and has picked up WAY more than
most K aged kids that have been in preschool and K
their whole lives. I have not sat down and taught her
anything, but she loves to write constantly and she's
pretty good at basic math too, just from being
curious. And she knows a lot about the world and
nature....it's incredible how unschooling (or living
life!) has been working. We are very active most
days and yet she has days to just veg at home if she
wants interspersed in there. The playdates have
picked up quite a bit recently though and she's been
enjoying them, as have I.

The money is appealing....it would give us a chance to
DO a bit more. I'm just worried that it is too big a
price to pay. I don't know if I should just suck it
up and jump through a few/several hoops. I'm
concerned though that it will have an effect on how we
currently unschool...bring too much "have to"s in for
dd. Am I just worried for no reason here....can
anyone tell me it's really not that bad and that it
can be done with ease while still keeping unschooling intact?

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-----Original Message-----
From: mother love <xtrememomx@...>

The money is appealing....it would give us a chance to
DO a bit more. I'm just worried that it is too big a
price to pay. I don't know if I should just suck it
up and jump through a few/several hoops. I'm
concerned though that it will have an effect on how we
currently unschool...bring too much "have to"s in for
dd. Am I just worried for no reason here....can
anyone tell me it's really not that bad and that it
can be done with ease while still keeping unschooling intact?

-=-=-

What state are you in?

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

mother love

I'm in CA.

Brenda, Mama to 5 yr old Rachel

--- kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

>
> What state are you in?
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> October 6-9, 2005
> http://liveandlearnconference.org
>




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--- In [email protected], mother love
<xtrememomx@y...> wrote:
>
> The money is appealing....it would give us a chance to
> DO a bit more.

Are there any other charter options that could provide the money
with fewer hassles?

Are there relatives who might be willing to help with the costs of
skating and ballet and what-all as "birthday gifts" or "Holiday
gifts" - gifts that keep on giving <wink>? My dad annually renews
DS' subscription to National Geographic Kids magazine.

Are there any barter-type arrangements you can make for the lessons
she wants? For example, I know of folks who have traded stall
mucking out (ick) for horseback riding lessons. If you can find a
few other homeschoolers interested, perhaps you could arrange a
class - and get a discounted rate for your DD as a 'reward' for
bringing in additional patrons to the dance school.

Bottom line is: is the money involved worth the trade off in terms
of time and piece of mind?

--Deb

[email protected]

They're buying you. Money comes with strings attached. It wouldn't be
unschooling hardly at all if you had to jump through those hoops.

How about instead of gifts on birthdays and holidays, you ask the
grandparents/aunts/uncles to pay for ballet lessons, etc.?

Why are you considering a charter in the first place? Only the money?

Karen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< I work part-time from home less than 20 hrs a week
currently. I also am going to be in grad school 2
nights a week. The fact that school for me is in the
evenings leads me to feel that sending her off to
school is not going to really make much of a
diffference and that if I can find a good support
system (which I already am doing), then I'll still
have the needed time to study and continue to
unschool. >>>>

Lots of homeschooling support groups in California. Try www.nhen.org or
email me privately with your locality (in case we are neighbors - I have
some useful inexpensive resources).

<<<<<And now I'm going to whine....I don't want to have to
write down everything we did on every school day in
"educationalese".....I quite enjoy leaving the idea of
"subjects" in the far back of my consciousness where
it belongs. But, there are 6 subjects and they
require me to write what we did every day for those 6
subjects and to hand in a sample once every 20
"school" days from each subject. >>>>>>>

One of the great things about living in California is that there is no
requirement from the State to do *any* of this stuff - as you said - the
state does not require any form of assessments or testing if you use one of
the private school options. Therefore this assessing and assigning and
requiring really is coming entirely from the Charter School. Maybe you can
ask for another ES or negotiate something different.

Most people who do Charter want the "help" and guidance. The idea of having
some money to buy any educational material they want sounds like freedom in
comparison to the strictures and book lists and required stationary lists of
regular schools. I agree that you have to ask yourself whether the money is
worth the unpleasant obligations. It is not for me. Just the ideas that
there is some teacher judging Jayn and some files placed somewhere
containing these evaluations, are so abhorrent to me that I chose to home
school.

Just in passing I don't even consider the idea of "subjects" as belonging
even deep in my consciousness, but rather actively purge it with the
opposing concept of connections and gestalt learning.

None of the Unschoolers I know IRL locally are in Charters, so I have no
recommendations of other Charter schools that might be more genuinely US
friendly. However that doesn't mean they don't exist. You might try asking
on the HSC e-list ( www.hsc.org )

Only you can decide if you genuinely have the time and energy to combine
Unschooling with both work and your studies. Sometimes it takes difficult
prioritizing. It may be that you have to cut back on some classes and take
just a little longer to complete your degree. OTOH it may be that you will
find some other parents in similar situations to trade off playdates/study
time.

<<<< I'm feeling like I'm
just whining, but it seems like such a huge
interruption of my time and real unschooling to have
to do this stuff. >>>>

It is an interruption and you do have better things to do with your time.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Kathleen Whitfield

on 8/25/05 10:25 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> Here's my question: I've signed up for a charter
> school that "says" they support unschooling, but when
> I spoke with the ES (Education Specialist) last night,
> it's clear she really has no clue what unschooling
> really means and certainly does not support it, she
> fears it in fact. Thing is, in my financial situation
> $600/yr would be A LOT to buy some books, or craft
> type stuff or let her take ballet or gymnastics or
> iceskating (things dd has asked for).


I'm in CA, too, and I think I know the charter you're talking about. I have
friends in it. So, some of what I'm going to write will be specific to that
charter.

First off, the money that is apparently now $600 a year was originally, I
think, $1200-$1500 a year. It has been gradually reduced over the last few
years. The items you buy with the money have to be, by the school's jargon,
consumed -- like classes or paper & crayons -- or they must be returned. So,
the people who were prompted to join by the idea of $1200 in school supplies
now have to go through the same hassle of record-keeping and meetings with
the ES for half the money. I could see it getting even lower. The ESes, BTW,
get paid more than $1,000 a student for their every-20-days meetings and
paperwork. You can't buy from any vendor that has any religious materials in
their catalog. You can't buy anything that remotely resembles clothing -- no
costumes or those nice silky squares that you'll see in Waldorfy catalogs.

The homeschool charters I'm familiar with in CA all require standardized
testing. A lot of the parents realized that they actually didn't legally
have to test, but since it's a charter school, the school was able to say,
"No, you're not legally required to test in public school, but we can say
that if you want to be in our special public school you have to test." I
don't know all the details. It was apparently painful for the school
administration to make this pronouncement, because it was started by people
with a strong unschooling or at least relaxed homeschooling bent, but
there's a certain percentage of students who are required to test or the
school's existence/funding is as risk.

I'm not in any charter because I consider my time and freedom for my kids as
much more valuable than the money, which at this point is truly a pittance
compared to the hassle. I don't want someone in my house -- or to have to
make arrangements to meet somewhere else every three weeks. I don't want
someone quizzing my kids. I don't want to sit down and analyze what we do
every day. I don't want to give someone else, someone whom I would be
expected to please, so much power in my life. The ESes vary in quality as
well. Some are very focused on bureaucracy -- one ES threatened a friend of
mine with reporting her children as truant when they had a miscommunication
about an appointment.

We're also nowhere near wealthy, although we undoubtedly have fewer
financial pressures than many. We live in LA, where renting a house that is
appropriate for a family with four children costs nearly 50 percent of my
husband's income (some of that is because we're new to the area -- people
who have been here for years previously have lower rents or mortgage
payments -- and some is because journalists don't get paid all that much).
We shopped around for six months to find this place. I spend most of my work
time (I work from home) on a project for a nonprofit that is an extension of
my volunteer work and doesn't pay market rate.

So we seriously watch our pennies, but I really don't feel like the kids are
missing out. My 7yo is doing a lot of ice skating (she did gymnastics during
the school year), and my son plays organized baseball year-round. In LA,
there is always a super-expensive way to do things, and it's easy to feel
deprived if that's all you know about. But there are always less-expensive
options, too. I've chosen to take the time I would be spending going through
charter school hassles to bargain hunt!

I guess I could say my main point about enrolling in a charter more
succinctly: I've watched my friends in the charters jump through more and
more hoops for less and less money.

Kathleen
in LA

Brandie

I may be totally off here, but I seriously doubt you
will ever see anything off the $600, other than some
workbooks and text. I say this as someone who had her
children enrolled for a brief time in a California
charter school. You don't get the $$$ -- you don't
even get to pick out anything. They assign what your
children should have, usually based on testing she
will have to do. And, don't be surprised that they
will actually want all the books -- and maybe even the
workbooks back at the end of the year. Ours were
scanned and checked out to us. I was required to
return all of ours (not a big deal...was happy to do
so). I know that this charter you are talking about
may be different, but I doubt they are much different.
I think you might be actually very disappointed with
how it all really works if you enrolled her.


Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com




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mother love

> They're buying you. Money comes with strings
> attached. It wouldn't be
> unschooling hardly at all if you had to jump through


I am afraid of that, but some money to get dd things
that she wants to do, I'm willing to do a certain
amount of paperwork and stuff. I know some states
require recordkeeping of the same sort, even from
unschoolers. So, even though I'm not living in those
states, perhaps I should just deal with the paperwork
in order to get her the resources she wants.
Also, I figure 15 minutes a day of me writing
everything down is not much for a few hundred dollars
a year. But, then I might be wrong.

> How about instead of gifts on birthdays and
> holidays, you ask the
> grandparents/aunts/uncles to pay for ballet lessons,
> etc.?

You are not the only person to suggest this, but you
are assuming that relatives exist to give her things
already. Not so. I have only my mom and she doesn't
have the kind of money it takes to enroll dd in a
class of any sort.



> Why are you considering a charter in the first
> place? Only the money?


Yes. When you are trying to live in LA and make under
$12,000 a year gross, and you live in a tiny 1-bedroom
apartment that costs over $1000/mo to rent if I were
not subsidized, well yeah...a few hundred dollars
sounds like a dream. Of course, if I don't go with
the charter, I'll find a way to work a few more hours
or something, but then, that's even more time away
from dd. I guess a could use the rationale that she's
only 5 and doesn't neeed classes, but she wants to
play violin or dance and those are super expensive
things.


Brenda, Mama to 5 yr old Rachel

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mother love

I think this one might be different - Golden
Valley Charter School.

Anyhow, the ES said I have the choice what to pick out
from an approved vendor list and it is quite
comprehensive. The list includes curriculum, sure,
but also available are many different types of
classes, etc. And Borderes books is an approved
vendor - of course, we could just use the library.
Hmmmm...now I wonder if the fact that Border's books
is a vendor means that I'd get to pick whatever she
wants to read from there anyhow, or if that only means
"approved" books.

Brenda


--- Brandie <scrapdiva73@...> wrote:

> I may be totally off here, but I seriously doubt you
> will ever see anything off the $600, other than some
> workbooks and text. I say this as someone who had
> her
> children enrolled for a brief time in a California
> charter school. You don't get the $$$ -- you don't
> even get to pick out anything. They assign what
> your
> children should have, usually based on testing she
> will have to do. And, don't be surprised that they
> will actually want all the books -- and maybe even
> the
> workbooks back at the end of the year. Ours were
> scanned and checked out to us. I was required to
> return all of ours (not a big deal...was happy to do
> so). I know that this charter you are talking about
> may be different, but I doubt they are much
> different.
> I think you might be actually very disappointed
> with
> how it all really works if you enrolled her.
>
>
> Brandie
> http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
> http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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--- Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:

Most people who do Charter want the "help" and
guidance. The idea of
having
some money to buy any educational material they want
sounds like
freedom in
comparison to the strictures and book lists and
required stationary
lists of
regular schools.


>>>>>>I don't really want any help or guidance, it was
just some way to find more resources for dd, that's
all.
And yes, it certainly does seem like a lot more
freedom than sending her to public school, which I've
unfortunately had to consider due to our situation.


--- Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:

I agree that you have to ask yourself whether the
money is
worth the unpleasant obligations. It is not for me.
Just the ideas that
there is some teacher judging Jayn and some files
placed somewhere
containing these evaluations, are so abhorrent to me
that I chose to
home
school.


>>>>>>Yes. You make a good point about the files and
such, not something I wanted to happen either really.
At least not at 5 years old.



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mother love

--- Kathleen Whitfield <kmckernan@...>
wrote:

In LA,
> there is always a super-expensive way to do things,
> and it's easy to feel
> deprived if that's all you know about. But there are
> always less-expensive
> options, too. I've chosen to take the time I would
> be spending going through
> charter school hassles to bargain hunt!
>
> I guess I could say my main point about enrolling in
> a charter more
> succinctly: I've watched my friends in the charters
> jump through more and
> more hoops for less and less money.


Without the charter I'll be looking for free things to
do rather than low-cost (can't afford those eitehr).
But, I'm sure, living in LA, there are plently of
offerings to be found. And if you know of any either,
please let me know. Do you go to any of the park days
they have around here for homeschoolers?

Brenda

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In a message dated 8/26/05 9:14:09 AM, xtrememomx@... writes:


> Also, I figure 15 minutes a day of me writing
> everything down is not much for a few hundred dollars
> a year.  But, then I might be wrong. 
>
>

Figure out what you'll get by the hour and what you want to get for losing
freedom and for your daughter to have her unschooling compromised (potentially,
if you end up pressing her to "do subjects" she might not have heard of
otherwise).

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Krisula Moyer

Hi Brenda,
Once you figure out whether you can use the money for the things Rachael
wants you can decide whether or not it's worth your time. Also, it might be
worth asking other parents in your charter. Sometimes the ES doesn't know
everything about the policies of the charter. The ES may be willing to meet
you somewhere without Rachael present if that is helpful. As for testing,
My charter (one county over from you) doesn't require testing for K-3. They
do for the older grades. But that gives you 4 years to dicker before having
to make that difficult decision.
My last recommendation is to find out who the best es is for unschoolers and
try to get a transfer to her. Oh, and for keeping records, mine aren't as
much as you describe but one thing I do is email her the paperwork so when
we meet it's just happy talk about fun things we did that month.

I know many people who say it's not worth the trouble. But the trouble may
be worth it to you at this time when your finances are so tight. The idea
to find bargains and trades etc is a good one no matter which way you go.
You can always drop it after a month or a day if you don't like it.

==================================================

I am afraid of that, but some money to get dd things
that she wants to do, I'm willing to do a certain
amount of paperwork and stuff. I know some states
require recordkeeping of the same sort, even from
unschoolers. So, even though I'm not living in those
states, perhaps I should just deal with the paperwork
in order to get her the resources she wants.
Also, I figure 15 minutes a day of me writing
everything down is not much for a few hundred dollars
a year. But, then I might be wrong. ...

When you are trying to live in LA and make under
$12,000 a year gross, and you live in a tiny 1-bedroom
apartment that costs over $1000/mo to rent if I were
not subsidized, well yeah...a few hundred dollars
sounds like a dream. Of course, if I don't go with
the charter, I'll find a way to work a few more hours
or something, but then, that's even more time away
from dd. I guess a could use the rationale that she's
only 5 and doesn't need classes, but she wants to
play violin or dance and those are super expensive
things.


Brenda, Mama to 5 yr old Rachel

Pam Sorooshian

Don't underestimate how WONDERFUL it is to be independent - not have
anybody to report to about your family's private life. To willingly
give that up is something to take pretty seriously - there are lots
of people in other states who would just LOVE to be able to be as
independent as we can be, here in CA.

Also, don't underestimate the "hidden lessons" that kids learn from
our actions and decisions. For those who are "rigging" the paperwork,
making it look like you're doing some kind of teaching/curriculum/
lessons, etc., when, in fact, you're unschooling, you might want to
really think about what your kids are picking up from that. If you're
in a state where you have no choice, then they're learning that there
are ways to get around oppressive bureaucratic policies. If you're
doing it to get government money, they're learning something else -
and I'm just saying that it bothered me enough to give it up after a
month or two. I felt that the negative lesson I was teaching my kids
was not at all worth the things we were able to buy. So - that's me.
Your mileage may vary and I'm just saying it is something to consider.

If someone wants to be independent, but is very low on funds, it is
still truly possible to unschool and provide a wonderful rich
environment. As it happens, my kids got free violin lessons on
borrowed violins - I traded the violin teacher for me doing math
activities with her kids. And my kids got ballet AND tap dance
classes at a local church which didn't charge and even had several
boxes full of slightly used dance shoes that we could borrow, free of
charge. We went to ALL the library programs, the city recreation
department offered scholarships, the local YMCA offered scholarships,
and there were free concerts in the park during the summer. Our
homeschooling group put on its OWN theatrical events - plays directed
and performed by the kids (with a lot of parental help).

These "homegrown" experiences were truly FAR more in-depth and more
fun and more valuable in so many ways than the ones we'd have had to
pay a lot of money for. And, again, look at the underlying message
the kids receive, loud and clear, when they see mom being careful
with money, making choices, comparing costs and benefits, and so on.
The kids get involved in these decisions and become very good
consumers and really come to understand how to make choices. It is
awesome.

-pam


On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:06 PM, Krisula Moyer wrote:

> I guess a could use the rationale that she's
> only 5 and doesn't need classes, but she wants to
> play violin or dance and those are super expensive
> things.

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>
> If someone wants to be independent, but is very low on funds, it is
> still truly possible to unschool and provide a wonderful rich
> environment. As it happens, my kids got free violin lessons on
> borrowed violins - I traded the violin teacher for me doing math
> activities with her kids. And my kids got ballet AND tap dance
> classes at a local church which didn't charge and even had several
> boxes full of slightly used dance shoes that we could borrow, free of
> charge.

We took vintage dance by distributing flyers for an entire season.
I've traded writing services for math tutoring and have art lessons.

But I wanted to add that sometimes the richest part of life has been
when we've been broke and played soccer every day in the backyard, not
on a rec team. We did that one spring and I tell you, it is still a
favorite memory for us.

My daughter spent months working on ballet with a book from the
library without any lessons at all. My son taught himself guitar and
continued to learn piano on his own without lessons after he quit when
we couldn't afford it any more.

We went to ALL the library programs, the city recreation
> department offered scholarships, the local YMCA offered scholarships,
> and there were free concerts in the park during the summer. Our
> homeschooling group put on its OWN theatrical events - plays directed
> and performed by the kids (with a lot of parental help).

We did things like this too (in California). We had weekly picnics and
made all kinds of parties with friends. We had a gold rush, a pony
express, a midnight tea, a japanese meal, a medieval feast... all
while we were broke. :)
>
> These "homegrown" experiences were truly FAR more in-depth and more
> fun and more valuable in so many ways than the ones we'd have had to
> pay a lot of money for.

And I have found that as we've gotten more money, we tend to think
that "classes out there" are somehow better. The truth is that we
began running around so much, I've cut out a lot of our activities due
to the harried life it started to make for us.

When we lived in CA, we were at the beginning of the charter school
era. What I noticed was the creeping way that the school had
"requirements." I hear about them now all the time as a business owner
who offers services that the charter schools want to pay for. Kids are
expected to "produce" X number of essays in a year or they haven't
"moved up" to the next grade level.

And I've discovered that many of us (businesses) won't work with
charter schools because they are notoriously bad at paying on time or
at all. I won't let them pay for online classes at all.


And, again, look at the underlying message
> the kids receive, loud and clear, when they see mom being careful
> with money, making choices, comparing costs and benefits, and so on.
> The kids get involved in these decisions and become very good
> consumers and really come to understand how to make choices. It is
> awesome.

I agree! So true.

It's hard to be creative when you lack funds and feel stressed. I
remember feeling so stretched! But I am also impressed with my life
during that era. It was rich in many, many ways I wouldn't trade now.

I am also so proud of my kids. One of them paid his own way to space
camp and started a business to be able to do it. Another asked family
for birthday money just to go to Shakespeare camp. These are the ways
we've made it with five kids and limited funds.

Julie