Re: book recommendations/reviews
jenneferh2000
Hi~
I'm a little behind on emails and just read this one. Don't remember
seeing any replies- unless I missed them. I too would be interested
in other's book recommendations. Scrolling down I see you mentioned
The Pearls "No Greater Joy" newsletter. Oh yuck! You are pretty bold
to actually subscribe, let alone read it! Would be a number 1 on my
DO NOT RECOMMEND list. Ha! I was the one from Eugene, Oregon who
inquired about their presence when they came to town. I ended up
attending the speach with the thought that I'd take advantage of open
question and answer time. Which they did not have! Afterwards, you
could come up on stage and personally ask Micheal Pearl questions.
Yeah, right, like I was going to do that! He'd probably wack me. It
was definately an eye opener. Let me tell you- the church was packed.
There was standing room only and people were standing outside
listening through the open window. People were parked up on the
grass. Everyone was dressed nice, smiling, laughing and nodding and
they brought all their children, including small ones who sat there
silently through the whole thing, not moving.
Anyhow, one book I recently have read is Sophie's World- a history of
philosophy written by a Norweigan man whose name is slipping my mind
right now. It is written for a 14 year girl and is basically an
exchange of letters and dialogues between this girl and a man who is
telling her the history of philosophy. I really enjoyed it, and it
was a great, simple with complex ideas, refreshener. It is not really
about parenting or anything like that, but it is about life and how we
experience and understand it. It really changed my outlook
afterwards. I felt like I had more tolerance of very religious
people. I highly recommend it for adults and middle aged to older
children. I would be interested in other's opinions/feedback of the book.
Jennefer in Eugene, Oregon
****************************************************************
If
anyone here has had their eyes opened in any new and exciting ways by
books they've read in regards to parenting/education/relating to
people,
I would appreciate pointers from them.
I'll go first ;)
"Our Babies, Ourselves" by Meredith Small
When my wife and I were burning through our midwife's library during
her
pregnancy we borrowed and read "The Continuum Concept." I was
fascinated, but almost constantly irritated by what felt like
unsupported leaps of inference and much Freudian baggage. In googling
around we came across OBO and got it from the library. It's written
from an anthropology/socio-biology perspective, and explores
infant/toddler care across cultures. I spent lots of time feeling
annoyed by it, but it made me consider all sorts of stuff that I hadn't
thought of before, and had a huge long term impact on the range of
options we could see in how to relate to our child.
"Child's Work" by Nancy Wallace
I read this a few years before my wife and I were even thinking about
having children. At the time it felt fairly radical to me, although
after reading this list for awhile it might feel pretty "school at
home"ish. Although I did OK from an academic perspective I never
enjoyed or felt safe in school. Reading the Wallace's account of doing
it differently got me to really consider, for the first time in my
life,
how one might get away from the structural problems built into our
concept of school. It brought up lots of strong emotions from my time
in school, and got me crying many times reading it and seeing for the
first time practical solutions to the pain that school was causing for
someones child.
"Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn
I think something on this list made me look up Alfie Kohn, and after
reading a few of the articles on his website I got this book from the
library. It's too long, both in just using too many words to say most
things, and in repeating itself alot in different sections, but has
been
great to read regardless. As I mentioned in another post recently,
it's
mostly a critique of behaviorist inspired methods of interacting with
people, with the focus on the problems with positive reinforcement
(since punishment is just too easy a target?) He cites *lots* of
research in this, and I haven't gotten down to reading any of it yet,
although I would like to. It's helped me think about how to structure
responses to friends/family that are more skeptical of the more
non-traditional directions we want to go as parents.
"Dumbing us Down" by John Gatto
I also read this when I was closer to being in the school system than
the parent of someone in it. Gatto strikes me as a bit strident at
times, but it also helped me to see the more "medium is the message"
problem with school at a time when I was waffling more about it.
Reading Gatto is sort of like reading the works of a religious convert;
he spent so much time as a "model" teacher, and clearly now looks back
on it with shame and horror.
"No Greater Joy" newsletter by the Pearls
Many months ago, when the Pearls were going to be giving a seminar in
Eugene Oregon, I saw a post by someone asking for advice with
strategies
for making their displeasure known. (The Pearls advocate *extremely*
controlling and conservative parenting from a rigid religious
perspective, lots of spanking and guilt and molding of blank slates.)
I
found their website while looking for more info, and saw that you can
subscribe to the newsletter for free. It's been a disturbing and
enlightening sort of "how the other half lives" view (although I kind
of
worry what our mail carrier will think of us!) What's been hardest for
me is seeing how clearly the people writing for it are motivated by the
desire to do the right thing for their children. Don't get it if you
have high blood pressure ;)
"Finite and Infinite Games" by James Carse
I liked this one better when I was younger; I just re-read it and it
seems like it has lots more holes in it's reasoning and is more reliant
on cute/clever turns of phrase than when I read it the first time.
It's
not really about education or parenting except insofar as it's sort of
all about intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation, power dynamics, and why
and how one chooses to live life. But it is kinda fun, and might give
you a new way to look at things.
I've seen people recommend "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So
Kids Will Talk" and "Siblings Without Rivalry" on the list before. Any
comments on what made you like them? Other book/author
recommendations?
Thanks,
-emile
I'm a little behind on emails and just read this one. Don't remember
seeing any replies- unless I missed them. I too would be interested
in other's book recommendations. Scrolling down I see you mentioned
The Pearls "No Greater Joy" newsletter. Oh yuck! You are pretty bold
to actually subscribe, let alone read it! Would be a number 1 on my
DO NOT RECOMMEND list. Ha! I was the one from Eugene, Oregon who
inquired about their presence when they came to town. I ended up
attending the speach with the thought that I'd take advantage of open
question and answer time. Which they did not have! Afterwards, you
could come up on stage and personally ask Micheal Pearl questions.
Yeah, right, like I was going to do that! He'd probably wack me. It
was definately an eye opener. Let me tell you- the church was packed.
There was standing room only and people were standing outside
listening through the open window. People were parked up on the
grass. Everyone was dressed nice, smiling, laughing and nodding and
they brought all their children, including small ones who sat there
silently through the whole thing, not moving.
Anyhow, one book I recently have read is Sophie's World- a history of
philosophy written by a Norweigan man whose name is slipping my mind
right now. It is written for a 14 year girl and is basically an
exchange of letters and dialogues between this girl and a man who is
telling her the history of philosophy. I really enjoyed it, and it
was a great, simple with complex ideas, refreshener. It is not really
about parenting or anything like that, but it is about life and how we
experience and understand it. It really changed my outlook
afterwards. I felt like I had more tolerance of very religious
people. I highly recommend it for adults and middle aged to older
children. I would be interested in other's opinions/feedback of the book.
Jennefer in Eugene, Oregon
****************************************************************
If
anyone here has had their eyes opened in any new and exciting ways by
books they've read in regards to parenting/education/relating to
people,
I would appreciate pointers from them.
I'll go first ;)
"Our Babies, Ourselves" by Meredith Small
When my wife and I were burning through our midwife's library during
her
pregnancy we borrowed and read "The Continuum Concept." I was
fascinated, but almost constantly irritated by what felt like
unsupported leaps of inference and much Freudian baggage. In googling
around we came across OBO and got it from the library. It's written
from an anthropology/socio-biology perspective, and explores
infant/toddler care across cultures. I spent lots of time feeling
annoyed by it, but it made me consider all sorts of stuff that I hadn't
thought of before, and had a huge long term impact on the range of
options we could see in how to relate to our child.
"Child's Work" by Nancy Wallace
I read this a few years before my wife and I were even thinking about
having children. At the time it felt fairly radical to me, although
after reading this list for awhile it might feel pretty "school at
home"ish. Although I did OK from an academic perspective I never
enjoyed or felt safe in school. Reading the Wallace's account of doing
it differently got me to really consider, for the first time in my
life,
how one might get away from the structural problems built into our
concept of school. It brought up lots of strong emotions from my time
in school, and got me crying many times reading it and seeing for the
first time practical solutions to the pain that school was causing for
someones child.
"Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn
I think something on this list made me look up Alfie Kohn, and after
reading a few of the articles on his website I got this book from the
library. It's too long, both in just using too many words to say most
things, and in repeating itself alot in different sections, but has
been
great to read regardless. As I mentioned in another post recently,
it's
mostly a critique of behaviorist inspired methods of interacting with
people, with the focus on the problems with positive reinforcement
(since punishment is just too easy a target?) He cites *lots* of
research in this, and I haven't gotten down to reading any of it yet,
although I would like to. It's helped me think about how to structure
responses to friends/family that are more skeptical of the more
non-traditional directions we want to go as parents.
"Dumbing us Down" by John Gatto
I also read this when I was closer to being in the school system than
the parent of someone in it. Gatto strikes me as a bit strident at
times, but it also helped me to see the more "medium is the message"
problem with school at a time when I was waffling more about it.
Reading Gatto is sort of like reading the works of a religious convert;
he spent so much time as a "model" teacher, and clearly now looks back
on it with shame and horror.
"No Greater Joy" newsletter by the Pearls
Many months ago, when the Pearls were going to be giving a seminar in
Eugene Oregon, I saw a post by someone asking for advice with
strategies
for making their displeasure known. (The Pearls advocate *extremely*
controlling and conservative parenting from a rigid religious
perspective, lots of spanking and guilt and molding of blank slates.)
I
found their website while looking for more info, and saw that you can
subscribe to the newsletter for free. It's been a disturbing and
enlightening sort of "how the other half lives" view (although I kind
of
worry what our mail carrier will think of us!) What's been hardest for
me is seeing how clearly the people writing for it are motivated by the
desire to do the right thing for their children. Don't get it if you
have high blood pressure ;)
"Finite and Infinite Games" by James Carse
I liked this one better when I was younger; I just re-read it and it
seems like it has lots more holes in it's reasoning and is more reliant
on cute/clever turns of phrase than when I read it the first time.
It's
not really about education or parenting except insofar as it's sort of
all about intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation, power dynamics, and why
and how one chooses to live life. But it is kinda fun, and might give
you a new way to look at things.
I've seen people recommend "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So
Kids Will Talk" and "Siblings Without Rivalry" on the list before. Any
comments on what made you like them? Other book/author
recommendations?
Thanks,
-emile
arcarpenter2003
==I've seen people recommend "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So
cartoon panels for "right" and "wrong" ways to handle things with
kids. They just provide a great entry into using good communication
and problem-solving with kids. They don't reach the level of
respectful parenting, though -- often the problem that they're solving
is how to get the kid beyond the fact that they can't have cookie
right now, or something ridiculous like that. But the skills
themselves are the useful part.
I also liked _Parent/Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach_. I
don't have teens yet but I read it anyway and learned a lot. It
starts with the premise that parents really cannot control their
teens, and they better come to terms with that fact. I thought that
was a nice wake-up call to mainstream parenting thought.
Peace,
Amy
> Kids Will Talk" and "Siblings Without Rivalry" on the list before. AnyThe two books you mentioned are really easy to read -- they even have
> comments on what made you like them? Other book/author
> recommendations?==
cartoon panels for "right" and "wrong" ways to handle things with
kids. They just provide a great entry into using good communication
and problem-solving with kids. They don't reach the level of
respectful parenting, though -- often the problem that they're solving
is how to get the kid beyond the fact that they can't have cookie
right now, or something ridiculous like that. But the skills
themselves are the useful part.
I also liked _Parent/Teen Breakthrough: A Relationship Approach_. I
don't have teens yet but I read it anyway and learned a lot. It
starts with the premise that parents really cannot control their
teens, and they better come to terms with that fact. I thought that
was a nice wake-up call to mainstream parenting thought.
Peace,
Amy
Emile Snyder
On Thu, 2005-08-04 at 06:22 +0000, jenneferh2000 wrote:
with. Sometimes when I'm just reading what I agree with or think is
good I end up loosing track of where the rest of the world is coming
from. I hope I didn't make it sound like I was recommending NGJ as a
source of good parenting ideas!
-emile (a bit south of you, close to Ashland, OR)
> in other's book recommendations. Scrolling down I see you mentionedYeah, I have a strange habit of reading stuff that I violently disagree
> The Pearls "No Greater Joy" newsletter. Oh yuck! You are pretty bold
> to actually subscribe, let alone read it! Would be a number 1 on my
> DO NOT RECOMMEND list. Ha! I was the one from Eugene, Oregon who
with. Sometimes when I'm just reading what I agree with or think is
good I end up loosing track of where the rest of the world is coming
from. I hope I didn't make it sound like I was recommending NGJ as a
source of good parenting ideas!
> Anyhow, one book I recently have read is Sophie's World- a history of...
> philosophy written by a Norweigan man whose name is slipping my mind
> experience and understand it. It really changed my outlookThanks for the tip, I'll have to go find it.
> afterwards. I felt like I had more tolerance of very religious
> people. I highly recommend it for adults and middle aged to older
> children. I would be interested in other's opinions/feedback of the book.
-emile (a bit south of you, close to Ashland, OR)
> Jennefer in Eugene, Oregon
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/4/05 11:59:59 AM, unschooling@...
writes:
ANYone who thinks she really believes something can do. Read what its detractors
say about it. Without that, it's just a pep rally.
And in the case of homeschooling (or Christianity), when a personpcan say
"WHAT!? Homeschooling is NOTHING like that," when faced with a report of a
typical conservative behavior or statement I'd think EVERY homeschooler (or
Christian) was aware of, it just lets me know that person has a limited view of what
she's claiming to espouse.
I don't mind when people don't want to read the craziest opposition, but then
they should admit they have a limited scope and not jump to the forefront
and say "No homeschooling mother would kill her own children with a rock or a
bathtub."
It's worth knowing the enemies within and without, if you want to really know
where and who you are. We exist in a greater context.
But those who might think spanking is not being addressed could follow some
of the links here:
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
Lots of Christians (and even more non-) are working to educate spanking
parents away from it.
(Quite a subject-jumping post up above, but I have to go somewhere...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Yeah, I have a strange habit of reading stuff that I violently disagreeI don't think it's strange at all. I think it's one of the best things
> with. Sometimes when I'm just reading what I agree with or think is
> good I end up loosing track of where the rest of the world is coming
> from.
>
ANYone who thinks she really believes something can do. Read what its detractors
say about it. Without that, it's just a pep rally.
And in the case of homeschooling (or Christianity), when a personpcan say
"WHAT!? Homeschooling is NOTHING like that," when faced with a report of a
typical conservative behavior or statement I'd think EVERY homeschooler (or
Christian) was aware of, it just lets me know that person has a limited view of what
she's claiming to espouse.
I don't mind when people don't want to read the craziest opposition, but then
they should admit they have a limited scope and not jump to the forefront
and say "No homeschooling mother would kill her own children with a rock or a
bathtub."
It's worth knowing the enemies within and without, if you want to really know
where and who you are. We exist in a greater context.
But those who might think spanking is not being addressed could follow some
of the links here:
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
Lots of Christians (and even more non-) are working to educate spanking
parents away from it.
(Quite a subject-jumping post up above, but I have to go somewhere...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kiersten Pasciak
>>>>> I've seen people recommend "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen &Listen So Kids Will Talk" and "Siblings Without Rivalry" on the list
before. Any comments on what made you like them? Other book/author
recommendations?
Thanks,
-emile<<<<<<<<<
Emile,
I used to recommend those 2...
I thought they were a good starting point because they focused on
seeing things from your child's point of view.
I learned a lot of language that was more respectful and over time,
it did become second nature to treat my children with more respect.
It wasn't just words!
I have gone on to read other books that I find more useful in terms
of unschooling, but I still think that they were a good place for me
to start.
In terms of recommendations, I second all the Kohn, Holt, and Gatto
books.
I have recently read another book which has given me more
perspective and more specific tools for my OWN behavior. It is
written with the idea that we can't teach that which we do not know.
It is called "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Becky Bailey.
I don't agree with everything she has to say, but the skills and
change in mindset are top notch.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/0060007753/qid=1123189948/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-9559032-5273555?
v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Kiersten
Su Penn
I was going to suggest the Becky Bailey book Easy to Love, Difficult to
Discipline as well. One idea from her that we have really integrated is
that of attributing a positive intention to a child's behavior even if
the behavior is problematic, and expressing that to the child. So, for
instance, if my older son grabs a toy away from my toddler, saying,
"You wanted to make sure you got to play with that toy as much as you
wanted to," or if he grabs a cookie off somebody else's plate, "wow,
you are really enjoying those cookies!" You can go on from there with
whatever "discipline" or problem-solving approach feels right to
you--we usually focus on alternative strategies for getting that need
met--but taking the attitude that there is some positive and
appropriate motivation behind the behavior is good for the parent and
the child as well. (Think about what a different message that sends
than an implicit or explicit characterization of the child as "greedy"
or "grabby" or "selfish."
We also like Bailey's assertion, as Kiersten mentioned, that you can't
teach what you don't know--another way to think about it is that you
can't expect a child to rise to standards of behavior you don't meet
for yourself. Bailey would say, you have to discipline yourself first.
This has helped my partner and me in looking at our own behaviors, and
in developing expectations of behaviors and treatments that really
apply to the whole family, not with one (higher) standard for kids and
another one for adults.
Su
Discipline as well. One idea from her that we have really integrated is
that of attributing a positive intention to a child's behavior even if
the behavior is problematic, and expressing that to the child. So, for
instance, if my older son grabs a toy away from my toddler, saying,
"You wanted to make sure you got to play with that toy as much as you
wanted to," or if he grabs a cookie off somebody else's plate, "wow,
you are really enjoying those cookies!" You can go on from there with
whatever "discipline" or problem-solving approach feels right to
you--we usually focus on alternative strategies for getting that need
met--but taking the attitude that there is some positive and
appropriate motivation behind the behavior is good for the parent and
the child as well. (Think about what a different message that sends
than an implicit or explicit characterization of the child as "greedy"
or "grabby" or "selfish."
We also like Bailey's assertion, as Kiersten mentioned, that you can't
teach what you don't know--another way to think about it is that you
can't expect a child to rise to standards of behavior you don't meet
for yourself. Bailey would say, you have to discipline yourself first.
This has helped my partner and me in looking at our own behaviors, and
in developing expectations of behaviors and treatments that really
apply to the whole family, not with one (higher) standard for kids and
another one for adults.
Su
On Aug 4, 2005, at 5:15 PM, Kiersten Pasciak wrote:
> I have recently read another book which has given me more
> perspective and more specific tools for my OWN behavior. It is
> written with the idea that we can't teach that which we do not know.
> It is called "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Becky Bailey.
>
> I don't agree with everything she has to say, but the skills and
> change in mindset are top notch.
Kimberly Viducich
I also like the book" Easy to Love Difficult to
Discipline". The one that hits the nail on the head
for me though is" Hold on to Your Kids,Why Parents
Matter" by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate. It is about
how our kids are peer oriented (kids raising kids with
no real meaningful relationships). It tell us how to
keep our kids attached, and tells us how to learn how
to use our natural intuition. I was very peer
oriented, so becoming a parent and knowing naturally
what to do is challenge for me. Especially since I
have chosen this path and try not to use punishment.
It is a great book.
Kimberly
mom to Mariana 6,Julian 2
--- Kiersten Pasciak <kjl8@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Discipline". The one that hits the nail on the head
for me though is" Hold on to Your Kids,Why Parents
Matter" by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate. It is about
how our kids are peer oriented (kids raising kids with
no real meaningful relationships). It tell us how to
keep our kids attached, and tells us how to learn how
to use our natural intuition. I was very peer
oriented, so becoming a parent and knowing naturally
what to do is challenge for me. Especially since I
have chosen this path and try not to use punishment.
It is a great book.
Kimberly
mom to Mariana 6,Julian 2
--- Kiersten Pasciak <kjl8@...> wrote:
>/0060007753/qid=1123189948/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-9559032-5273555?
>
> >>>>> I've seen people recommend "How To Talk So
> Kids Will Listen &
> Listen So Kids Will Talk" and "Siblings Without
> Rivalry" on the list
> before. Any comments on what made you like them?
> Other book/author
> recommendations?
>
> Thanks,
> -emile<<<<<<<<<
>
> Emile,
> I used to recommend those 2...
> I thought they were a good starting point because
> they focused on
> seeing things from your child's point of view.
> I learned a lot of language that was more respectful
> and over time,
> it did become second nature to treat my children
> with more respect.
> It wasn't just words!
>
> I have gone on to read other books that I find more
> useful in terms
> of unschooling, but I still think that they were a
> good place for me
> to start.
>
> In terms of recommendations, I second all the Kohn,
> Holt, and Gatto
> books.
>
> I have recently read another book which has given me
> more
> perspective and more specific tools for my OWN
> behavior. It is
> written with the idea that we can't teach that which
> we do not know.
> It is called "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline"
> by Becky Bailey.
>
> I don't agree with everything she has to say, but
> the skills and
> change in mindset are top notch.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
>
> v=glance&s=books&n=507846__________________________________________________
>
> Kiersten
>
>
>
>
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Su Penn <pennsu@...>
We also like Bailey's assertion, as Kiersten mentioned, that you can't
teach what you don't know--another way to think about it is that you
can't expect a child to rise to standards of behavior you don't meet
for yourself. Bailey would say, you have to discipline yourself first.
This has helped my partner and me in looking at our own behaviors, and
in developing expectations of behaviors and treatments that really
apply to the whole family, not with one (higher) standard for kids and
another one for adults.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I've put this one on my library list!
To me, that is the starting point of peaceful, respectful parenting!
If it's that good, maybe I'll give it to sisters-in-law for Christmas!
<bweg>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Su Penn <pennsu@...>
We also like Bailey's assertion, as Kiersten mentioned, that you can't
teach what you don't know--another way to think about it is that you
can't expect a child to rise to standards of behavior you don't meet
for yourself. Bailey would say, you have to discipline yourself first.
This has helped my partner and me in looking at our own behaviors, and
in developing expectations of behaviors and treatments that really
apply to the whole family, not with one (higher) standard for kids and
another one for adults.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I've put this one on my library list!
To me, that is the starting point of peaceful, respectful parenting!
If it's that good, maybe I'll give it to sisters-in-law for Christmas!
<bweg>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/4/2005 10:11:03 PM Central Standard Time,
kvid@... writes:
Hold on to Your Kids,Why Parents
Matter" by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate. It is about
how our kids are peer oriented (kids raising kids with
no real meaningful relationships).
~~~
Must not be about unschooled kids. My youngest here likes to hang out with
his friends, but "peer oriented" and "no meaningful relationships" does NOT
describe him, nor *any* of the unschooled kids I know (whether they were in
school for some time or not).
I recognize that peer orientation in schooled kids on his baseball team,
though.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kvid@... writes:
Hold on to Your Kids,Why Parents
Matter" by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate. It is about
how our kids are peer oriented (kids raising kids with
no real meaningful relationships).
~~~
Must not be about unschooled kids. My youngest here likes to hang out with
his friends, but "peer oriented" and "no meaningful relationships" does NOT
describe him, nor *any* of the unschooled kids I know (whether they were in
school for some time or not).
I recognize that peer orientation in schooled kids on his baseball team,
though.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/4/05 9:11:03 PM, kvid@... writes:
how our kids are peer oriented"
How can your kids, at 6 and 2, be peer oriented?
Something that will help you unschool more confidently is to not use phrases
like "our kids" when you're thinking of all the kids in the world (or all the
kids in the English-speaking world, or your state, or your town). "Our kids"
if that refers to unschoolers are NOT peer oriented. Schoolkids are peer
oriented.
-=- I also like the book" Easy to Love Difficult to
Discipline".-=-
I haven't seen it, but someone choosing the word "discipline" as part of a
six-word title wouldn't draw me to that book.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> mom to Mariana 6,Julian 2wrote "It is about
>
how our kids are peer oriented"
How can your kids, at 6 and 2, be peer oriented?
Something that will help you unschool more confidently is to not use phrases
like "our kids" when you're thinking of all the kids in the world (or all the
kids in the English-speaking world, or your state, or your town). "Our kids"
if that refers to unschoolers are NOT peer oriented. Schoolkids are peer
oriented.
-=- I also like the book" Easy to Love Difficult to
Discipline".-=-
I haven't seen it, but someone choosing the word "discipline" as part of a
six-word title wouldn't draw me to that book.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kimberly Viducich
my daughter loves to hang out with other kids as well.
I believe that kids can be peer oriented regardless of
unschooling or not. I read the book to raise my
awareness. It opened my eyes to some things I might be
doing that may be leading my kids to peer orientation.
Kimberly
--- tuckervill2@... wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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I believe that kids can be peer oriented regardless of
unschooling or not. I read the book to raise my
awareness. It opened my eyes to some things I might be
doing that may be leading my kids to peer orientation.
Kimberly
--- tuckervill2@... wrote:
>__________________________________________________
> In a message dated 8/4/2005 10:11:03 PM Central
> Standard Time,
> kvid@... writes:
>
> Hold on to Your Kids,Why Parents
> Matter" by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate. It is
> about
> how our kids are peer oriented (kids raising kids
> with
> no real meaningful relationships).
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Must not be about unschooled kids. My youngest here
> likes to hang out with
> his friends, but "peer oriented" and "no meaningful
> relationships" does NOT
> describe him, nor *any* of the unschooled kids I
> know (whether they were in
> school for some time or not).
>
> I recognize that peer orientation in schooled kids
> on his baseball team,
> though.
>
> Karen
>
> www.badchair.net
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Kimberly Viducich
My original statement shoiuld have read " It is about
how kids can become peer oriented..."
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
how kids can become peer oriented..."
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>__________________________________________________
> In a message dated 8/4/05 9:11:03 PM, kvid@...
> writes:
>
>
> > mom to Mariana 6,Julian 2
> >
> wrote "It is about
> how our kids are peer oriented"
>
> How can your kids, at 6 and 2, be peer oriented?
>
> Something that will help you unschool more
> confidently is to not use phrases
> like "our kids" when you're thinking of all the kids
> in the world (or all the
> kids in the English-speaking world, or your state,
> or your town). "Our kids"
> if that refers to unschoolers are NOT peer oriented.
> Schoolkids are peer
> oriented.
>
>
> -=- I also like the book" Easy to Love Difficult to
> Discipline".-=-
>
> I haven't seen it, but someone choosing the word
> "discipline" as part of a
> six-word title wouldn't draw me to that book.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/5/2005 11:02:27 AM Central Standard Time,
kvid@... writes:
I believe that kids can be peer oriented regardless of
unschooling or not
~~~
Well, sure, but it's not likely.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kvid@... writes:
I believe that kids can be peer oriented regardless of
unschooling or not
~~~
Well, sure, but it's not likely.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>>>>I believe that kids can be peer oriented regardless of unschooling or not~~~
Well, sure, but it's not likely.>>>>>>>>>
I think there is a spectrum. Totally peer oriented on one end, totally self oriented on the other, with most people NOT on the absolute ends.
I see a certain amount of it in my kids. They do care what their friends think, wear, play with, listen to, etc., but they certainly do not always follow the crowd.
Last night, Lisa (12)and Taylor went on a sleepover at a third girl's house. Taylor didn't want Lisa to bring her stuffed bunny. I could see that Lisa really wanted to bring it, and wasn't sure what to do with Taylor saying not to. I jokingly said that Lisa couldn't go unless bunny went to. Lisa smiled broadly and grabbed bunny. Taylor just said, OK.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Salamander starr
>youThis is an idea I'm having a VERY EXTREMELY difficult time getting across to
>can't expect a child to rise to standards of behavior you don't meet
>for yourself. Bailey would say, you have to discipline yourself first.
>This has helped my partner and me in looking at our own behaviors, and
>in developing expectations of behaviors and treatments that really
>apply to the whole family, not with one (higher) standard for kids and
>another one for adults.
my not-so d, at the moment, h. ;-) Anyway, does anyone have any stories on
breakthroughs with your dh or other family members with this concept? For
example, he asked ds to see if there was more milk in the fridge the other
evening...made sense, dh was stuck behind table ds was right next to the
fridge, ds said he was too tired (he's 4). So my dd volunteers but dh has
to point out that he was disappointed that ds wouldn't look yada yada...THEN
a couple of nights later ds wants dh to help him (or rather do it for him)
build a k'nex something or other. Dh puts him off says he'll be there
shortly, doesn't whatever gets distracted and I end up building the k'nex
thing for ds. What dh doesn't get is the ds COULDN'T build what he wanted
and the fact that dh WOULDN'T help affects when ds wants to impose on his on
level of comfort to do something for ol' dad.
Then dh gets irritated when ds will do something for me that he wouldn't
necessarily do for dh. Pk, now here's the sticky oint. My dh is the one
with both dc for the majority of daylight hours...I've got to bring him
around, somehow. Any thoughts? Oh, I'm not generally a "gentle" person and
when I see my dh needlessly putting off one of the dc desires my initial
reaction is to point out to my dh "right now what your doing is the same
thing you get so mad about E/R doing to you..." but that just puts everyone
in a foul mood...so I'm working on it.
A
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all.
--Oscar Wilde
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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soggyboysmom
My DH is the one at home with DS all day while I WOH fulltime. What
I generally do is take some private time (we have a date night every
week and that helps) and reflect back a situation from the week,
phrased as "If I did... how would you react?" Then I point out that
it is exactly the same situation that had occurred earlier in the
week between him and DS. [removing it from the heat of the moment
helps keep it from boiling over] Mostly, situations occur when DH is
not actually -thinking- but rather what comes out is the same tape
that he heard growing up, the same expectation, the same types of
phrases, etc. One of the *biggest* things that has helped is helping
DH to see how much alike the two of them are (they are amazingly
alike right down to the shape of their ear lobes lol). Then, taking
that a step further and helping DH to recognize how he felt as a
child. And, for me to recognize that often I am gentle with DS but
*expect* DH to be at the same place I am in many areas and I'm not
always so gentle with him because "he's a grownup". During one
particularly bumpy time, DH and I were having a long late night
talk, and he started crying because he realized he was actually kind
of envious of DS' freedom, freedom and respect he wishes he had
received when he was a kid. We've got lots of little bits of things
we do - something as simple as me calling DH a couple times per day
so he can hear a grownup voice and get a little 'pick me up' and an
ear to bounce situations off of. I usually talk to DS too when I
call. And both of them can call me at work as needed. We have my
work number (right down to the extension) on the speed dial so DS
(he's 7) can call easily. Both of them are Spirited personalities
and tend to lock in to a particular opinion/idea/plan - makes for
very determined, dedicated, focused people but can be a bit sticky
if they each lock in to an opposite idea. So, I'll talk to DH, I'll
talk to DS, we'll brainstorm ideas, and eventually DS merrily heads
off to propose a plan to DH. (arranged that way so DS doesn't
perceive it as being told what to do - it's usually something that
is within the realm of okay that DH and I have discussed). And, in
the process, the end result is rarely what we talked about. But, the
talking allows them to each 'unstick' and start to think instead of
react.
Okay longwindedness summary:
give DH the same respect and gentleness, sans "expectations", that
you give the kids
talk about things after the fact, once calm has returned, so that
thinking can occur rather than reacting
just as you do with the kids, provide positive feedback when you see
positive change occurring
give DH the benefit of the doubt as you do with the kids - is he
hungry? tired? stressed? etc. and address those needs
setting up principles that apply to the whole household - ours boil
down to 'do no harm' and 'be safe' - a whole realm of stuff fits
under there without having to change rules
--Deb
I generally do is take some private time (we have a date night every
week and that helps) and reflect back a situation from the week,
phrased as "If I did... how would you react?" Then I point out that
it is exactly the same situation that had occurred earlier in the
week between him and DS. [removing it from the heat of the moment
helps keep it from boiling over] Mostly, situations occur when DH is
not actually -thinking- but rather what comes out is the same tape
that he heard growing up, the same expectation, the same types of
phrases, etc. One of the *biggest* things that has helped is helping
DH to see how much alike the two of them are (they are amazingly
alike right down to the shape of their ear lobes lol). Then, taking
that a step further and helping DH to recognize how he felt as a
child. And, for me to recognize that often I am gentle with DS but
*expect* DH to be at the same place I am in many areas and I'm not
always so gentle with him because "he's a grownup". During one
particularly bumpy time, DH and I were having a long late night
talk, and he started crying because he realized he was actually kind
of envious of DS' freedom, freedom and respect he wishes he had
received when he was a kid. We've got lots of little bits of things
we do - something as simple as me calling DH a couple times per day
so he can hear a grownup voice and get a little 'pick me up' and an
ear to bounce situations off of. I usually talk to DS too when I
call. And both of them can call me at work as needed. We have my
work number (right down to the extension) on the speed dial so DS
(he's 7) can call easily. Both of them are Spirited personalities
and tend to lock in to a particular opinion/idea/plan - makes for
very determined, dedicated, focused people but can be a bit sticky
if they each lock in to an opposite idea. So, I'll talk to DH, I'll
talk to DS, we'll brainstorm ideas, and eventually DS merrily heads
off to propose a plan to DH. (arranged that way so DS doesn't
perceive it as being told what to do - it's usually something that
is within the realm of okay that DH and I have discussed). And, in
the process, the end result is rarely what we talked about. But, the
talking allows them to each 'unstick' and start to think instead of
react.
Okay longwindedness summary:
give DH the same respect and gentleness, sans "expectations", that
you give the kids
talk about things after the fact, once calm has returned, so that
thinking can occur rather than reacting
just as you do with the kids, provide positive feedback when you see
positive change occurring
give DH the benefit of the doubt as you do with the kids - is he
hungry? tired? stressed? etc. and address those needs
setting up principles that apply to the whole household - ours boil
down to 'do no harm' and 'be safe' - a whole realm of stuff fits
under there without having to change rules
--Deb
Gwen McCrea
We have the same situation as Deb and "salamander starr"dh and ds are
both so intense and their confrontations are equally intense. Lots of
the situations in our house arise from ds's (9) sense that he is being
treated with less respect than he is "supposed" to afford dh. So for
example, dh expects ds to ask nicely if he wants something, and
quietly accept it if dh can't (or won't) do whatever it isbut dh
expects ds to jump up and do what he's told (not even asked) asap. We
had a big family discussion about this the other day, where finally dh
listened to ds's request that dh at least say "please". But really,
this usually just means that dh says please, but ds is not allowed to
say no. So, in this situation, I have been talking to dh about this
when we have a little quiet time alone. I have pointed out how I think
that dh falls into a way of treating children without thinking, that
is very typical in Bolivia, where he is fromon the one hand, many
children are allowed time and space to play, and are not
over-programmed or supervised, but they are also expected to drop
whatever it is that they're doing and come running if an adult calls
them, and often it's for stupid things like the adult is too busy
talking to bring his/her own glass into the kitchen to be washed.
Drives me nuts whenever we're there! So pointing this cultural
difference out has been fruitful, up until the other day when dh sort
of half-heartedly tried to justify his behavior by saying it was
culturally relative. (Plus, is it so different from the way children
are treated here, at the core of it?) Couldn't let that one by, so I
ever so sweetly asked him to explain to me why it was fine to treat
children like lesser beings, and that might does not make right,
period. This point is slowly coming along for dh, so I have to
celebrate every small step
I do agree that giving dh the same understanding that I give the kids
is important, i.e. is he tired, stressed, hungry and so does that
explain why he's doing this particular thing he's doing. I have also
found that it is very important that I let him know what's going on
vis-à-vis our evolving unschooling life. For a while there, I was not
communicating with dh very well at all, about unschooling and living
by principles, so to him my changing behavior felt like an imposition
on our once "good-enough" family life. Of course, that had to change,
and finding time alone to talk was crucial. Usually it was in our
family bed, once everyone else had fallen asleep, or sometimes 9yo ds
would still be awake, but downstairs playing or watching tvwe've had
the best conversations in the dark in the middle of the night. (It
makes me think of Sandra's essay about leaning on a truck, i.e. having
a conversation without the intense eye contact can be better
sometimes). So one important point for us: keeping dh in the loop.
At the same time, in the heat of the moment, during those
confrontations between ds and dh, I cannot stand aside, and bide my
time to talk about it later. Ds is 9 years old, and both ds and dh are
spirited (aside: thank you Mary Kurcinka-"spirited" is a much better
word than others I have heard people use to describe my dear ones!),
and as Deb said, once they lock in on opposite sides, it's very
difficult to get either one of them to cede. Here's where I differ
from Deb (or maybe not, I don't think she addressed what she does in
the moment)at these times, I do NOT give my dh the same consideration
if it means that I have to stand back and let the two of them go at
it, because when it comes right down to it, there is a power imbalance
in the parent/child relationship in our society, and this plays out in
the microcosm of my husband's relationship with my son. I will not let
dh assert this society-granted power over ds if I can help it. Dh IS
the adult in the relationship and so HE is the one who needs to figure
out how to recognise his emotions and not lash out, and recognize that
little people deserve as much consideration as big people, so as to be
able to help ds learn to do the same. Dh falls back on the
authoritarian way that he was parentedor worse because he was cared
for a significant amount by his older siblings (he's the youngest of
13, and his mom was ill when he was little, dad busy working)in my
opinion, and dh agrees with me, the relationship between dh and ds
sometimes resembles a sibling relationship more than a parent/child
relationshipI hear the voices of dh's siblings coming through in the
way he treats ds sometimes (not all the time, and in fairness to dh,
he has gotten so much better!).
I figure that we are a family in transition, and for me this means
that while we are figuring out unschooling and better parenting and
all, I need to be particularly aware of what's happening in the
relationships in our houseif I sense that dh and ds are escalating
toward a "lock-in", I try to intervene right away. It's the only way
I've found to keep the peace. And if I can't defuse it, then I stand
in between them (sometimes literally). When I first started doing
this, it caused a lot of problems between dh and me, he said I was
being ds's "lawyer" (how's that for an adversarial metaphor), and that
I was undermining the relationship between them (and us). So we talked
about it, a lot, and sometimes yelled and cried. And I explained that
in my humble opinion, it was dh's authoritarian attitude that was
undermining his relationship with ds. And I pointed out to him that at
other times, he really admires ds's independent spirit and refusal to
bow to authority for authority's sake. These conversations, removed
from the moment, are helping. I'm getting better at being aware of
whether everyone's needs are being met, and heading off
confrontations. Dh is coming around, though it feels like two steps
forward, one step back. But at least we're on the path .
Gwen
P.S. I'm so looking forward to our first Live and Learn conference,
and from the way I've heard people talk about it, I'm expecting to
hear the sound of trumpets and a bright light as dh is magically
transformed into the ideal unschooling/respectful parenting dad. You
don't think I'm being unrealistic, do you? ;-)
both so intense and their confrontations are equally intense. Lots of
the situations in our house arise from ds's (9) sense that he is being
treated with less respect than he is "supposed" to afford dh. So for
example, dh expects ds to ask nicely if he wants something, and
quietly accept it if dh can't (or won't) do whatever it isbut dh
expects ds to jump up and do what he's told (not even asked) asap. We
had a big family discussion about this the other day, where finally dh
listened to ds's request that dh at least say "please". But really,
this usually just means that dh says please, but ds is not allowed to
say no. So, in this situation, I have been talking to dh about this
when we have a little quiet time alone. I have pointed out how I think
that dh falls into a way of treating children without thinking, that
is very typical in Bolivia, where he is fromon the one hand, many
children are allowed time and space to play, and are not
over-programmed or supervised, but they are also expected to drop
whatever it is that they're doing and come running if an adult calls
them, and often it's for stupid things like the adult is too busy
talking to bring his/her own glass into the kitchen to be washed.
Drives me nuts whenever we're there! So pointing this cultural
difference out has been fruitful, up until the other day when dh sort
of half-heartedly tried to justify his behavior by saying it was
culturally relative. (Plus, is it so different from the way children
are treated here, at the core of it?) Couldn't let that one by, so I
ever so sweetly asked him to explain to me why it was fine to treat
children like lesser beings, and that might does not make right,
period. This point is slowly coming along for dh, so I have to
celebrate every small step
I do agree that giving dh the same understanding that I give the kids
is important, i.e. is he tired, stressed, hungry and so does that
explain why he's doing this particular thing he's doing. I have also
found that it is very important that I let him know what's going on
vis-à-vis our evolving unschooling life. For a while there, I was not
communicating with dh very well at all, about unschooling and living
by principles, so to him my changing behavior felt like an imposition
on our once "good-enough" family life. Of course, that had to change,
and finding time alone to talk was crucial. Usually it was in our
family bed, once everyone else had fallen asleep, or sometimes 9yo ds
would still be awake, but downstairs playing or watching tvwe've had
the best conversations in the dark in the middle of the night. (It
makes me think of Sandra's essay about leaning on a truck, i.e. having
a conversation without the intense eye contact can be better
sometimes). So one important point for us: keeping dh in the loop.
At the same time, in the heat of the moment, during those
confrontations between ds and dh, I cannot stand aside, and bide my
time to talk about it later. Ds is 9 years old, and both ds and dh are
spirited (aside: thank you Mary Kurcinka-"spirited" is a much better
word than others I have heard people use to describe my dear ones!),
and as Deb said, once they lock in on opposite sides, it's very
difficult to get either one of them to cede. Here's where I differ
from Deb (or maybe not, I don't think she addressed what she does in
the moment)at these times, I do NOT give my dh the same consideration
if it means that I have to stand back and let the two of them go at
it, because when it comes right down to it, there is a power imbalance
in the parent/child relationship in our society, and this plays out in
the microcosm of my husband's relationship with my son. I will not let
dh assert this society-granted power over ds if I can help it. Dh IS
the adult in the relationship and so HE is the one who needs to figure
out how to recognise his emotions and not lash out, and recognize that
little people deserve as much consideration as big people, so as to be
able to help ds learn to do the same. Dh falls back on the
authoritarian way that he was parentedor worse because he was cared
for a significant amount by his older siblings (he's the youngest of
13, and his mom was ill when he was little, dad busy working)in my
opinion, and dh agrees with me, the relationship between dh and ds
sometimes resembles a sibling relationship more than a parent/child
relationshipI hear the voices of dh's siblings coming through in the
way he treats ds sometimes (not all the time, and in fairness to dh,
he has gotten so much better!).
I figure that we are a family in transition, and for me this means
that while we are figuring out unschooling and better parenting and
all, I need to be particularly aware of what's happening in the
relationships in our houseif I sense that dh and ds are escalating
toward a "lock-in", I try to intervene right away. It's the only way
I've found to keep the peace. And if I can't defuse it, then I stand
in between them (sometimes literally). When I first started doing
this, it caused a lot of problems between dh and me, he said I was
being ds's "lawyer" (how's that for an adversarial metaphor), and that
I was undermining the relationship between them (and us). So we talked
about it, a lot, and sometimes yelled and cried. And I explained that
in my humble opinion, it was dh's authoritarian attitude that was
undermining his relationship with ds. And I pointed out to him that at
other times, he really admires ds's independent spirit and refusal to
bow to authority for authority's sake. These conversations, removed
from the moment, are helping. I'm getting better at being aware of
whether everyone's needs are being met, and heading off
confrontations. Dh is coming around, though it feels like two steps
forward, one step back. But at least we're on the path .
Gwen
P.S. I'm so looking forward to our first Live and Learn conference,
and from the way I've heard people talk about it, I'm expecting to
hear the sound of trumpets and a bright light as dh is magically
transformed into the ideal unschooling/respectful parenting dad. You
don't think I'm being unrealistic, do you? ;-)
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], "Gwen McCrea"
<gwendolin00@h...> wrote:
(and BTW did I mention both my guys are Spirited too - DS way high
on the energy scale, DH needing a lot more space and quiet). I agree
with you - I don't stand aside and let it be a knock down dragged
out situation. I'll use my "equal status" as an adult to help
DH "hear" what DS is saying or needing. I'll draw DH up short and
get him to stop and think a minute if whatever it is is a hill he
wants to die on. I also make sure to mirror DH's feelings and words
back to him so he feels that he is being heard, that his own needs
are being included. Then I'll use my calm Mommy self and draw DS to
me (physical contact often, not always, but often enough, really
helps DS when he's frustrated) and hear him out, reflect back his
words and emotions so he knows I'm getting it. Then we brainstorm
together to resolve the situation. Oh, and just to make things
clear, I don't always talk to DH first and DS second. Over time,
they are getting better at listening and hearing each other, taking
a breath, and trying to find a solution. Generally, it's when one or
the other is running low on 'fuel' (personal, mental, physical
energy - not necessarily food needs, sometimes DH needs some space,
sometimes DS needs to burn pent up energy, whatever) that things get
sticky. At those times, DH falls back on what he heard growing up
(parents tell, kids do, no questions, all expectations). It really
really helped when we went over the Spirited checklist and
discovered DH is Spirited too - I can frame things as "when you were
a Spirited little boy, how would you have felt in this situation?
what would you have wanted to happen?" One important piece to this
is that *someone* has to stay sane. So, if I let myself get hungry
or run down, it can get really nuts. DH and I joke that only one of
us is allowed to be crazy at a time. Of course, sometimes I'm tired
and frustrated from work or whatever and easily irritated. DH will
suggest that he and DS go play a favorite video game or something so
I can get some space to breath and regain equilibrium.
Interestingly, whole days of calm are becoming so much more common
now that (a) DS is 7 (ages 3 and 5 were most difficult) that when
there's a major meltdown, it dissipates faster because there's a
reservoir of calm to take the heat out. Kind of the difference
between riding down a washed out gravel road where you're constantly
bumping and bouncing and jouncing and hitting one pothole in a long
sttretch of smooth pavement - it's jarring but it's over quickly and
back to smooth again.
--Deb
<gwendolin00@h...> wrote:
>You're right - I didn't really address that situation in my post
> At the same time, in the heat of the moment, during those
> confrontations between ds and dh, I cannot stand aside, and bide my
> time to talk about it later. Ds is 9 years old, and both ds and dh
>are
> spirited (aside: thank you Mary Kurcinka-"spirited" is a much
>better
> word than others I have heard people use to describe my dear
>ones!),
> and as Deb said, once they lock in on opposite sides, it's very
> difficult to get either one of them to cede. Here's where I differ
> from Deb (or maybe not, I don't think she addressed what she does
>in
> the moment)at these times, I do NOT give my dh the same
>consideration
> if it means that I have to stand back and let the two of them go at
> it, because when it comes right down to it, there is a power
>imbalance
> in the parent/child relationship in our society, and this plays
>out in
> the microcosm of my husband's relationship with my son.
(and BTW did I mention both my guys are Spirited too - DS way high
on the energy scale, DH needing a lot more space and quiet). I agree
with you - I don't stand aside and let it be a knock down dragged
out situation. I'll use my "equal status" as an adult to help
DH "hear" what DS is saying or needing. I'll draw DH up short and
get him to stop and think a minute if whatever it is is a hill he
wants to die on. I also make sure to mirror DH's feelings and words
back to him so he feels that he is being heard, that his own needs
are being included. Then I'll use my calm Mommy self and draw DS to
me (physical contact often, not always, but often enough, really
helps DS when he's frustrated) and hear him out, reflect back his
words and emotions so he knows I'm getting it. Then we brainstorm
together to resolve the situation. Oh, and just to make things
clear, I don't always talk to DH first and DS second. Over time,
they are getting better at listening and hearing each other, taking
a breath, and trying to find a solution. Generally, it's when one or
the other is running low on 'fuel' (personal, mental, physical
energy - not necessarily food needs, sometimes DH needs some space,
sometimes DS needs to burn pent up energy, whatever) that things get
sticky. At those times, DH falls back on what he heard growing up
(parents tell, kids do, no questions, all expectations). It really
really helped when we went over the Spirited checklist and
discovered DH is Spirited too - I can frame things as "when you were
a Spirited little boy, how would you have felt in this situation?
what would you have wanted to happen?" One important piece to this
is that *someone* has to stay sane. So, if I let myself get hungry
or run down, it can get really nuts. DH and I joke that only one of
us is allowed to be crazy at a time. Of course, sometimes I'm tired
and frustrated from work or whatever and easily irritated. DH will
suggest that he and DS go play a favorite video game or something so
I can get some space to breath and regain equilibrium.
Interestingly, whole days of calm are becoming so much more common
now that (a) DS is 7 (ages 3 and 5 were most difficult) that when
there's a major meltdown, it dissipates faster because there's a
reservoir of calm to take the heat out. Kind of the difference
between riding down a washed out gravel road where you're constantly
bumping and bouncing and jouncing and hitting one pothole in a long
sttretch of smooth pavement - it's jarring but it's over quickly and
back to smooth again.
--Deb
Gwen McCrea
--- In [email protected], "soggyboysmom"
<debra.rossing@m...> wrote:
I also make sure to mirror DH's feelings and words
in which his father won't take no for an answer to a command, has an
immediate and sometimes frighteningly intense reaction to some
requests, especially if he's upset for any other reason, hungry,
tired, frustrated so he'll lash out in a way that seems out of
proportion, and sometimes uncalled for (like yelling "leave me alone"
when dh asks him if he wants something to drink). In the ensuing
melee, if I don't respond to dh's need to not be screamed at, etc.,
then I can't really help defuse the situation because now he's upset
with me too. I was having a really hard time with this for a couple
months earlier this year, combined with the stresses of money and
getting ready to move across the country. It was making dh feel like
he wasn't really part of my little "mama and babies" world; I really
had to let go of that, and make it a priority to help him improve his
relationship with ds. I'm more conscious of it now, and I hope I'm
getting better at it.
Then I'll use my calm Mommy self and draw DS to
he's already gone past upset to angry (something that seems to take
relatively little time these days). I was reading that the amygdala,
that helps control emotional impulse, in pre-teen and teenage boys is
proportionately three times larger than in adultsI wonder if this is
contributing to ds's recent tendency to have outbursts (well, that
plus we're moving in two weeks!). It seems as though if I can catch
him when he's starting to get upset, I can help, but he has a point of
no return, after which he doesn't respond to touch, empathy,
breathing, water (in a glass, to drink!), or anything else that I've
tried. I haven't figured out how to deal with it yethe used to
respond to reason, even when upset.
As soon as we get to our new home, I'm looking for a karate dojo for
him...I have a feeling that will be good for him, plus I want to do it
too.
Gwen
<debra.rossing@m...> wrote:
I also make sure to mirror DH's feelings and words
> back to him so he feels that he is being heard, that his own needsThis is the part that I need to work on. DS, after so many incidents
> are being included.
in which his father won't take no for an answer to a command, has an
immediate and sometimes frighteningly intense reaction to some
requests, especially if he's upset for any other reason, hungry,
tired, frustrated so he'll lash out in a way that seems out of
proportion, and sometimes uncalled for (like yelling "leave me alone"
when dh asks him if he wants something to drink). In the ensuing
melee, if I don't respond to dh's need to not be screamed at, etc.,
then I can't really help defuse the situation because now he's upset
with me too. I was having a really hard time with this for a couple
months earlier this year, combined with the stresses of money and
getting ready to move across the country. It was making dh feel like
he wasn't really part of my little "mama and babies" world; I really
had to let go of that, and make it a priority to help him improve his
relationship with ds. I'm more conscious of it now, and I hope I'm
getting better at it.
Then I'll use my calm Mommy self and draw DS to
> me (physical contact often, not always, but often enough, reallyLately, ds is no longer responding to physical contact, at least when
> helps DS when he's frustrated)
he's already gone past upset to angry (something that seems to take
relatively little time these days). I was reading that the amygdala,
that helps control emotional impulse, in pre-teen and teenage boys is
proportionately three times larger than in adultsI wonder if this is
contributing to ds's recent tendency to have outbursts (well, that
plus we're moving in two weeks!). It seems as though if I can catch
him when he's starting to get upset, I can help, but he has a point of
no return, after which he doesn't respond to touch, empathy,
breathing, water (in a glass, to drink!), or anything else that I've
tried. I haven't figured out how to deal with it yethe used to
respond to reason, even when upset.
As soon as we get to our new home, I'm looking for a karate dojo for
him...I have a feeling that will be good for him, plus I want to do it
too.
Gwen
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], "Gwen McCrea"
<gwendolin00@h...> wrote:
settling in and all will probably help a bunch. Sometimes, I'll
simply tell DS when he's gotten to where nothing helps (words,
touch, etc) that I'll be right here as soon as he is ready to talk
about it. Then I suggest he go stomp on the stairs (hardwood steps
make really loud stomps and echoes in the hallway) or slam his door
or bounce of the mini-trampoline or something - direct his energy to
something safe for everyone until he can handle words, touch, etc.
If he is lashing out physically, I'll tell him "I can't stay here
and be hit so I'll be in the kitchen (my room, wherever) when you
are ready to be around people again." Over time, this has worked
well - he has started taking himself off to stomp or bounce or run
laps around the yard or the basement or whatever. Sometimes he'll
say "I need time alone" and head off to another room where he can
yell or stomp or simply cool off a bit. Then we talk about it when
he's ready. In the meanwhile, I can usually talk with DH and find
out what happened (if I wasn't there) and help him figure out what
happened and develop a strategy together for the situation.
Good luck
--Deb
<gwendolin00@h...> wrote:
>It seems as though if I can catchpoint >of
> him when he's starting to get upset, I can help, but he has a
> no return, after which he doesn't respond to touch, empathy,I've
> breathing, water (in a glass, to drink!), or anything else that
> tried. I haven't figured out how to deal with it yethe used toYeah - getting past the whole disruption for everyone of moving and
> respond to reason, even when upset.
settling in and all will probably help a bunch. Sometimes, I'll
simply tell DS when he's gotten to where nothing helps (words,
touch, etc) that I'll be right here as soon as he is ready to talk
about it. Then I suggest he go stomp on the stairs (hardwood steps
make really loud stomps and echoes in the hallway) or slam his door
or bounce of the mini-trampoline or something - direct his energy to
something safe for everyone until he can handle words, touch, etc.
If he is lashing out physically, I'll tell him "I can't stay here
and be hit so I'll be in the kitchen (my room, wherever) when you
are ready to be around people again." Over time, this has worked
well - he has started taking himself off to stomp or bounce or run
laps around the yard or the basement or whatever. Sometimes he'll
say "I need time alone" and head off to another room where he can
yell or stomp or simply cool off a bit. Then we talk about it when
he's ready. In the meanwhile, I can usually talk with DH and find
out what happened (if I wasn't there) and help him figure out what
happened and develop a strategy together for the situation.
Good luck
--Deb
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Salamander starr <salamanderstarr@...>
across to
my not-so d, at the moment, h. ;-) Anyway, does anyone have any
stories on
breakthroughs with your dh or other family members with this concept?
For
example, he asked ds to see if there was more milk in the fridge the
other
evening...made sense, dh was stuck behind table ds was right next to
the
fridge, ds said he was too tired (he's 4). So my dd volunteers but dh
has
to point out that he was disappointed that ds wouldn't look yada
yada...THEN
a couple of nights later ds wants dh to help him (or rather do it for
him)
build a k'nex something or other. Dh puts him off says he'll be there
shortly, doesn't whatever gets distracted and I end up building the
k'nex
thing for ds. What dh doesn't get is the ds COULDN'T build what he
wanted
and the fact that dh WOULDN'T help affects when ds wants to impose on
his on
level of comfort to do something for ol' dad.
Then dh gets irritated when ds will do something for me that he
wouldn't
necessarily do for dh. Pk, now here's the sticky oint. My dh is the
one
with both dc for the majority of daylight hours...I've got to bring him
around, somehow. Any thoughts? Oh, I'm not generally a "gentle"
person and
when I see my dh needlessly putting off one of the dc desires my
initial
reaction is to point out to my dh "right now what your doing is the
same
thing you get so mad about E/R doing to you..." but that just puts
everyone
in a foul mood...so I'm working on it.
=--=-=-=-
I got this a lot sooner than my husband, Ben. When Cameron was a baby,
I would ask Ben whether he remembered being three or eight or eleven.
Could he remember what it was like? Could he IMAGINE what it was like
if he couldn't remember? I'd say, "He's only four." (or nine or 13 or
whatever)
That never seemed to work! <g>
With Duncan I tried something different. Ben would say things like,
"He's five, he should know better!" *I* would counter with, "Well,
*you* are 38! At what age do you think you should have figured this
out? Duncan is only five; you have had many more years to work this
out, and yet you are still arguing with a five year old. The sooner you
can figure it out, the sooner *he* will! Model the behavior you want to
see!"
He would also often ask why Cameron was more willing to do for me than
for him. I'd say that Cameron was used to seeing me do for him---he was
just reciprocating and modelling my behavior.
Ben's got it now. He sometimes has to nudge *me* in the right
direction! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Salamander starr <salamanderstarr@...>
>youThis is an idea I'm having a VERY EXTREMELY difficult time getting
>can't expect a child to rise to standards of behavior you don't meet
>for yourself. Bailey would say, you have to discipline yourself first.
>This has helped my partner and me in looking at our own behaviors, and
>in developing expectations of behaviors and treatments that really
>apply to the whole family, not with one (higher) standard for kids and
>another one for adults.
across to
my not-so d, at the moment, h. ;-) Anyway, does anyone have any
stories on
breakthroughs with your dh or other family members with this concept?
For
example, he asked ds to see if there was more milk in the fridge the
other
evening...made sense, dh was stuck behind table ds was right next to
the
fridge, ds said he was too tired (he's 4). So my dd volunteers but dh
has
to point out that he was disappointed that ds wouldn't look yada
yada...THEN
a couple of nights later ds wants dh to help him (or rather do it for
him)
build a k'nex something or other. Dh puts him off says he'll be there
shortly, doesn't whatever gets distracted and I end up building the
k'nex
thing for ds. What dh doesn't get is the ds COULDN'T build what he
wanted
and the fact that dh WOULDN'T help affects when ds wants to impose on
his on
level of comfort to do something for ol' dad.
Then dh gets irritated when ds will do something for me that he
wouldn't
necessarily do for dh. Pk, now here's the sticky oint. My dh is the
one
with both dc for the majority of daylight hours...I've got to bring him
around, somehow. Any thoughts? Oh, I'm not generally a "gentle"
person and
when I see my dh needlessly putting off one of the dc desires my
initial
reaction is to point out to my dh "right now what your doing is the
same
thing you get so mad about E/R doing to you..." but that just puts
everyone
in a foul mood...so I'm working on it.
=--=-=-=-
I got this a lot sooner than my husband, Ben. When Cameron was a baby,
I would ask Ben whether he remembered being three or eight or eleven.
Could he remember what it was like? Could he IMAGINE what it was like
if he couldn't remember? I'd say, "He's only four." (or nine or 13 or
whatever)
That never seemed to work! <g>
With Duncan I tried something different. Ben would say things like,
"He's five, he should know better!" *I* would counter with, "Well,
*you* are 38! At what age do you think you should have figured this
out? Duncan is only five; you have had many more years to work this
out, and yet you are still arguing with a five year old. The sooner you
can figure it out, the sooner *he* will! Model the behavior you want to
see!"
He would also often ask why Cameron was more willing to do for me than
for him. I'd say that Cameron was used to seeing me do for him---he was
just reciprocating and modelling my behavior.
Ben's got it now. He sometimes has to nudge *me* in the right
direction! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Gwen McCrea <gwendolin00@...>
P.S. I'm so looking forward to our first Live and Learn conference,
and from the way I've heard people talk about it, I'm expecting to
hear the sound of trumpets and a bright light as dh is magically
transformed into the ideal unschooling/respectful parenting dad. You
don't think I'm being unrealistic, do you? ;-)
-=-=-=-
Ordering those damned trumpets now! Geez!!!
~Kelly <g>
From: Gwen McCrea <gwendolin00@...>
P.S. I'm so looking forward to our first Live and Learn conference,
and from the way I've heard people talk about it, I'm expecting to
hear the sound of trumpets and a bright light as dh is magically
transformed into the ideal unschooling/respectful parenting dad. You
don't think I'm being unrealistic, do you? ;-)
-=-=-=-
Ordering those damned trumpets now! Geez!!!
~Kelly <g>
mamaaj2000
> -----Original Message-----I've got to bring him
> From: Salamander starr <salamanderstarr@h...>
> around, somehow. Any thoughts? Oh, I'm not generally a "gentle"the
> person and
> when I see my dh needlessly putting off one of the dc desires my
> initial
> reaction is to point out to my dh "right now what your doing is
> same
> thing you get so mad about E/R doing to you..." but that just puts
> everyone
> in a foul mood...so I'm working on it.
>>
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
"Well,
> *you* are 38!"
Yep, I've said the same thing...except 41, but that's not important
right now. My main point was that we have been modeling the wrong
way before this and we need to model the right way for quite a while
before expecting the kids to pick up on it and even longer for them
to do it consistantly.
Modeling "I'll be nice and ask for your help...as long as you agree
quickly to do what I say otherwise I'm going to get upset" is not
anywhere near as effective as modeling "I'll be nice and ask for
help and stay pleasant no matter what your reaction (within reason)
because I think it's a good way to treat people."
--aj
Betsy Hill
** Modeling "I'll be nice and ask for your help...as long as you agree
quickly to do what I say otherwise I'm going to get upset"...**
Right.
It took me far to long to figure this out, but lots of time when I'm
"asking" for household help I am (or at least I WAS) really "telling",
because I wasn't taking "no" for an answer.
Betsy
quickly to do what I say otherwise I'm going to get upset"...**
Right.
It took me far to long to figure this out, but lots of time when I'm
"asking" for household help I am (or at least I WAS) really "telling",
because I wasn't taking "no" for an answer.
Betsy