jfetteroll

**the closest I could come to were the families where the mother is
calmly telling
her child why he/she shouldn't hit mommy ---but that is not what
unschooling is
about, correct? And I'm not talking about unschooling in an academic
way but within
the family as a whole.**

Unschooling is strictly speaking not doing school. The way it's
done is by trusting
kids instincts about what interests them and helping them explore
(and expand) their
interests.

The idea you're trying to express is expanding the unschooling
philosophy of
trusting kids into parenting.

Sometimes it's called respectful parenting. Sometimes it's
called mindful parenting. It
doesn't have an official name unfortunately! ;-)

Anyway, yes, it goes well beyond saying "This is why you
shouldn't hit mommy ..." ;-
)

It's treating kids the way fellow human being appreciate being
treated. It's helping
them get what they want. It's being their partner as they explore
the world.

**I was wondering what type, if any, limits are there ---do y'all
set? What do you not
approve of? Perhaps there is nothing and I am still not seeing
everything in the
same way.**

With traditional parenting parents and children are adversaries.
Parents decide what
the child must and must not do.

"Good" (traditional) parents are reasonable in their
expectations. But the relationship
is about the parents holding all the power and letting the kids do
what the parents
approve of.

Mindful parenting is about being a child's partner rather than
their adversary. It's
about helping them get what they want rather than finding techniques
to make them
do what the parent wants.

Unfortunately that explanation works better after someone understands
mindful
parenting because after reading that explanation some people will ask
"So you're
saying that if your child wanted to play in traffic you'd let
them?!" ;-)

First kids may want to play but they *also* want to be safe and they
trust us to
keep them safe. So we'd help them play *and* be safe. That could
mean distraction
to something even better. Saying "The cars will hurt you in the
street. Hey, let's go
do the slide." If they're very young and can't stay away
from the street then it's best
to avoid places like that until they are able to understand.

(It's much easier to explain with real examples because the
answer will come from
why a child wants to do something rather than what they want to do.)

So there isn't a "let". There's helping a child get
what they really want (and avoid
what they don't want and perhaps don't understand.)

Second, sometimes kids do want something that we *think* will be
unsafe: lots of
sweets, lots of TV, video games, horror movies, violent video games,
movies with
adult content.

Thousands of words have been written about trusting kids with food
and tv and
video games! (Sandra has some collected at her website
(http://sandradodd.com/
unschooling) Basically the idea is to help kids be happy :-)

A brief summary of the TV debate is that if kids are given the
freedom to watch as
much as they want whenever they want they will turn it off when
they're done.

(There are a bunch of caveats: *If* there are better options for
them. (In other words
as long as TV isn't the least boring option. They need to have
choices that *they*
find interesting.) *If* their TV viewing hasn't been controlled
before. *If* they don't
fear that limits will be placed on how much they can watch. *If* they
aren't
prepubescent ;-) (My daughter watched a *lot* of TV when she was 10
and 11. But I
trusted her and whatever she needed she got out of it and moved onto
other
interests.)

A more illustrative example might be a child who wants to watch a
horror movie. How
do you help them get that when you fear they may have nightmares or
it might be
too scary? Do you just "let them"?

No. Kids want to be happy so we *help* them. And the first best way
is by
understanding and knowing them. My daughter liked fantasy action
movies but she
didn't like moving skeletons. So before seeing a movie I'd
check with the Screen It!
(http://www.screenit.com) website. (The front page makes it look like
you have to
pay but you can go right in. Becoming a member just gets it the site
ad free and
some other extras.) They give good details of what a movie contains
that might
bother a child. I'd summarize the things that might bother her
and if she still wanted
to see it I'd memorize where in the movie it was and remind her
to close her eyes
when we got to that point.

If a child has nightmares, there's lots of other options than
watching a scary movie
straight through right before bed! So we empower them :-) Let them
know they can
watch it during the day, leave and go do something else, stop the
movie, fast
forward, pause and talk about it, watch the "making of" to
see how the special
effects are done.

We empower kids by helping them figure out how to have control over
the things that
might bother them.

That often doesn't make sense to people who have controlled their
kids because
they "know" their kids aren't reasonable. They might say
"No, you can't see it. The
movie has zombies in it and you know you know zombies give you
nightmares." And
a controlled child might fight to watch the movie, convincing the
parent that the child
has no common sense so the parent obviously must make decisions for
the child.

But it's not that the child is unreasonable but that the child
wants to be able to
choose for themselves. If they're used to fighting for the right
to choose, they'll fight
even for things they don't entirely want ;-) They just want the
power to decide for
themselves.

When kids' worlds are divided between what they're allowed to
do and what they
aren't allowed to do, they will want to do what they aren't
allowed. (Partly it's wanting
to prove that they can handle what someone thinks they can't.
Partly it's wanting
the ability to make their own choices.)

But when kids' worlds are divided between what they want to do
and what they don't
want to do there isn't any reason for them to choose what they
don't want.

That's the "short" version, anyway ;-)

Joyce

kayb85

> Anyway, yes, it goes well beyond saying "This is why you
> shouldn't hit mommy ..." ;-

So I'm wondering, what would you say to a child who is hitting mommy?
If you tell him firmly to stop and he says no and continues anyway?

I ask, because I can give a real life recent example. I'll tell what
I did, but I wonder if others would handle it differently.

We were swimming at a friend's house. Luke (who's 6) was in a big
inter-tube type thing that he was filling up with water. He was
handing me the plastic bucket, and I was filling it up with water and
handing it to him. Matt (who's 8)had been playing with us but got
sick of it and wanted to get out of the pool. Luke heard him ask me
to get out of the pool with him and got upset and said in a pleading
kind of voice, "No, don't get out of the pool, I want you to stay here
with me". So I had one boy begging me to stay in with him and one boy
begging me to get out with him. So I told Matt that I wanted to stay
in with Luke for awhile, but that he could wrap up in a towel and sit
on the deck and talk with us. Or he could change into dry clothes and
come back down and sit on the deck and be with us. Or he could go
into the house, where his sister and friend were, and watch tv, play
with toys or video games, get a snack and drink, etc. Or I would call
his dad, who wouldn't mind coming to get him and take him home and
hang out with him for awhile. None of that satisfied him, and he just
insisted that I get out NOW. He started pulling on me and I just
calmly told him that no, Luke needed me in the pool right now, and
re-stated his options. I was trying to think of new options that
would satisfy both boys but wasn't coming up with anything else.

When pulling on me didn't work, he started hitting and punching. He
said "Come now" over and over. So I held his hands to keep him from
hitting me, and told him to stop, that I wouldn't tolerate him hitting
me. But he didn't stop when I told him to, and I spent probably 15
minutes keeping him from hitting me--telling him no, holding his hands
so he couldn't hit, until he finally gave up. He went in and got
changed, got himself a drink, and came out to the pool deck and sat
down and talked to us. But obviously, what I would like to figure out
is how to avoid that kind of struggle. I shouldn't have to hold an 8
year old back from hitting me for 15 minutes. I can do it now, but in
a few years he might be physically stronger than me. If he had been
the only child who needed me to be doing something with him, then I
would have gotten out of the pool right away with him--but that wasn't
the case. I had another child who would have been equally upset if I
HAD gotten out of the pool with Matt.

I have a similar issue with kids hitting each other. The fighting
escalated for awhile during the last few months. I've told them it's
not acceptable. I've told them to come to me when they're frustrated
and talk to me first before they hit--they sometimes do and they
sometimes don't. There is still sometimes hitting and kicking and
crying and "he hit me first" and "he hit me so now I AM going to hit
him back, and don't try to stop me" and me holding frustrated kids
back and me fervently trying to explain why you shouldn't hit your
mommy or brother or sister.

Once, after a particularly nasty fist fight that involved all 3 kids
including the 12 year old, I just sat them down and said, "Look, you
guys have an incredible amount of freedom and incredible opportunities
to do all kinds of cool things that lots of kids don't have. We have
a really cool lifestyle here and when fights like this happen our life
isn't anywhere near as fun and nice as it could be for any of us. If
you want to continue to have the amount of freedom that you have, this
kind of fighting can't continue." I haven't threatened with a loss
of freedom or privelages for YEARS now, and now here I was saying, "No
fighting or there will be some loss of freedom (I didn't say what kind
of loss of freedom, just kind of emphasized that the kind of fighting
that's been happening more and more lately simply can't continue or
(something that I didn't describe).

I'm not entirely happy with the way I worded it to them, but at the
time it was the best I could come up with.

So they wanted to know "or what" specifically. What would I do if
they continue to hurt each other? Would they have to go to school?
Would I start being as strict as some other moms that we know? What
specifically? In other words, is it worth it to them to stop hurting
each other? What are the stakes?

The thing is, they know me well. They know I won't send them to
school. They know I won't ground them or take away stuff. They know
I won't even threaten to. So I just told them, "Look, let's not even
talk about what I *could* do. You know I don't want to make you go to
school or get real strict with you. But this is important. I
wouldn't be making this big of a deal about it if it isn't. As a
family, it's important to all of us to have a home where people don't
get hurt, so let's just all work toward having this be a place where
people don't have to worry about getting hurt because that's a good
deal for everyone".

And since that talk, things *have* been better. I'm still breaking up
fights every once in awhile, and still every once in awhile saying,
"Remember, it's just not acceptable to hit even if you're (angry,
frustrated, etc.). It's not okay to threaten to dump soda on your
sister's head, it's not okay to hit him because he threatened to dump
soda on your head, it's not okay to hit her because she hit you
because you threatened to dump soda on your head. And I'm still
sometimes hearing "I'm going to hit him no matter what you say, and
he's not my brother".

Matt said to me, "Mom, you told me not to hit my brother and not to
annoy him so that he wants to hit me. But when you tell me that, YOU
annoy me. I don't LIKE you telling me that."

But so far I've been able to keep things from escalating into anything
big.

Thoughts?

Sheila

Jenn

jfetteroll wrote:

> But when kids' worlds are divided between what they want to do
> and what they don't
> want to do there isn't any reason for them to choose what they
> don't want.
>
> That's the "short" version, anyway ;-)


Thanks Joyce, LOL. That explains a lot. My biggest fears, and yes I
realize they are *my* fears <g>, are not what my kids want inside the
home but the fear with the strangers outside the home. And even that is
broken down into two groups: The friends who may do things that I, as a
parent, would hope my child does not want to do: stealing. alcohol,
drugs, sex, etc. At that point I need to trust in my child, right? Trust
that she will do what she feels is best for her, knowing she has
received the education concerning these things?
And the second are the strangers. The kidnappers, pedophiles, etc. And
not just the stranger ones but the ones that a person knows and trusts
as well. I'm sure that weighs more heavily on my mind then someone who
has never had anything "criminal" happen to them but is the best
attitude to take a deep breath and have trust in a higher power?
It may be easier if some of the kids in this complex haven't been
calling my daughter fatty, among other things, for the pass three years.
It's hard for a mother to hear, but I have explained that it is not
about her but about the person speaking. I think she has a good grasp of
it but it still hurts and hurts me probably more. So every time she goes
out to play my stomach does flips. My faith in mankind has not lifted
since I moved in here. LOL
Jenn :)

Betsy Hill

**Mindful parenting is about being a child's partner rather than
their adversary. It's
about helping them get what they want rather than finding techniques
to make them
do what the parent wants.**

I just started reading Alfie Kohn's book, Unconditional Parenting, and
it seems to be in the vein that you describe, Joyce. I hope it sells a
lot of copies or gets featured on Oprah or something.

Betsy

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], "kayb85" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
==So I had one boy begging me to stay in with him and one boy
> begging me to get out with him. So I told Matt that I wanted to stay
> in with Luke for awhile, but that he could wrap up in a towel and sit
> on the deck and talk with us. Or ==

I'm thinking that it sounded to Matt like what Luke wanted was more
important to you than what he wanted. That probably didn't feel very
good.

You gave Matt lots of great options, but it sounds like what he wanted
was you (how flattering <G>). You could have offered to get out with
him for a few minutes, wrap him in a towel, maybe even run in to get
him a snack, or just sit with him on the side of the pool for a minute
or two, with an arm around him if he wanted. I know that when I was a
child and I was wet and getting kind of cold and shivery, it felt
great to have an adult's strong hands wrap me up and dry me off.

Then you could get back in with Luke and play some more. You could
even alternate every few minutes, if the boys felt they each needed
some more time with you.

Another thing to do when you aren't sure what to do is to state the
problem and offer it back to your kids. "Matt wants me to get out,
Luke wants me to stay in. What both of you want is important to me.
I can't do both at once. Do you guys have some ideas about how to
work this out?"

Sometimes kids will surprise you with the solutions they come up with.
Even when they can't think of anything, you've done a few helpful
things: 1) You've put yourself in win/win mode and given yourself a
few minutes to think just by re-stating the situation; 2) You've
helped your children to see the whole issue, not just their side of
it; and 3) You've given them a chance to see good problem-solving in
action and to at least start thinking about things that way -- and
problem-solving is a skill they will need and use all their lives.

Of course, this may not seem to address your actual problem of
hitting. That's because usually, by age 8, a child is hitting out of
frustration at not being heard or having needs met -- because there
isn't enough problem-solving going on. (As opposed to the hitting
kids will do at 2 or 3, when they're gauging the reaction of others
and their language skills just aren't up to their communication skills
yet -- a different kind of frustration.)

As far as the fighting going on, are you present with the kids,
helping them problem-solve as they're playing? Or are you in another
room and only coming in when a problem breaks out? That can make a
world of difference.

If you haven't read it already, you might find _Siblings Without
Rivalry_ a good read (and an easy one, too) about facilitating better
communication and problem-solving.

Peace,
Amy

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----


We were swimming at a friend's house. Luke (who's 6) was in a big
inter-tube type thing that he was filling up with water. He was
handing me the plastic bucket, and I was filling it up with water and
handing it to him. Matt (who's 8)had been playing with us but got
sick of it and wanted to get out of the pool. Luke heard him ask me
to get out of the pool with him and got upset and said in a pleading
kind of voice, "No, don't get out of the pool, I want you to stay here
with me". So I had one boy begging me to stay in with him and one boy
begging me to get out with him. So I told Matt that I wanted to stay
in with Luke for awhile, but that he could wrap up in a towel and sit
on the deck and talk with us. Or he could change into dry clothes and
come back down and sit on the deck and be with us. Or he could go
into the house, where his sister and friend were, and watch tv, play
with toys or video games, get a snack and drink, etc. Or I would call
his dad, who wouldn't mind coming to get him and take him home and
hang out with him for awhile. None of that satisfied him, and he just
insisted that I get out NOW. He started pulling on me and I just
calmly told him that no, Luke needed me in the pool right now, and
re-stated his options. I was trying to think of new options that
would satisfy both boys but wasn't coming up with anything else.

-=-=-=-
With eight years between children, this has never been a problem for us
(two onelies), so I really don't have much first-hand advice.

But, in this instance, with one child *in* the water, HE would get my
attention. The child out of the pool isn't in need as much. Safety
should be a good enough answer/reason. You're not "chosing" one child
over the other, but one situation over the other.

As for the hitting and fighting...I'll leave that to more experienced
moms.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Betsy Hill

**Matt said to me, "Mom, you told me not to hit my brother and not to
annoy him so that he wants to hit me. But when you tell me that, YOU
annoy me. I don't LIKE you telling me that." **

Do you suppose there is an underlying concern about favoritism? I mean
all kids seem to sometimes think they are getting the short end of the
stick. But in some cases parents defend the youngest child more and
criticize the oldest child more (for fairly understandable reasons), and
that can seem very biased to the kid who is oldest.

**But, in this instance, with one child *in* the water, HE would get my
attention.**

Sure, but explicitly state your reason in case the other child is
failing to comprehend it. I wouldn't leave the pool, either, unless
perhaps my friend wasn't busy lifeguarding her own kids and could safely
watch mine. I understand the assumption that the kid IN the pool wants
to stay in the pool, but it might be worth asking "want to get out at
warm up?" or "want to go inside and have a snack?" so that the other
child sees you trying.

The only thinga I can think of to add are validating the departing
child's desires (verbally -- "I wish I could") and finding out more
explicitly what he wanted you with him for.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/23/05 7:11:38 PM, sheran@... writes:


> When pulling on me didn't work, he started hitting and punching. He
> said "Come now" over and over.  So I held his hands to keep him from
> hitting me, and told him to stop, that I wouldn't tolerate him hitting
> me.
>

Where was his dad?

From the account, it sounds like too much talking, not calling for assistance
soon enough, and VERY likely that he needed to talk to you in private or that
he was uncomfortable about something that had nothing to do with you or the
pool.

You were at someone else's house and one of your children really wanted to be
with you privately. I would have called the dad and see which child seemed
most willing to have the dad replace you in the situation.

-=-But he didn't stop when I told him to, and I spent probably 15
minutes keeping him from hitting me--telling him no, holding his hands
so he couldn't hit, until he finally gave up. -=-

From his point of view, you didn't pay attention to what he needed and for a
whole fifteen minutes you weren't with EITHER child, really.

-=- I shouldn't have to hold an 8
year old back from hitting me for 15 minutes.-=-

Nothing like that should last for fifteen minutes. If what you were doing
wasn't helping, it wasn't the right thing to do. You were in a swimming
pool. Why didn't you just cast yourself off and get out of his reach? Why didn'
t anyone else who was there that day go and get the other parent, or come and
try to distract the child?

-=- I can do it now, but in
a few years he might be physically stronger than me.-=-

If by then you haven't discussed and developed other ways to communicate,
that will be a lack of communication. When he doesn't need you, when you're not
busy and he's not busy, discuss that. Ask him and listen to him about why
he needed you so immediately, and figure out ways for him to communicate to you
what he needs in words.

-=-  If he had been
the only child who needed me to be doing something with him, then I
would have gotten out of the pool right away with him--but that wasn't
the case.  I had another child who would have been equally upset-=-

But whose need was greater? One had a greater need, and it's possible you
could have given both PART of what they wanted, instead of (as it seems)
depriving both of your kind attention.

-=-I've told them it's not acceptable. -=-

Blah blah blah. Using big words on little kids is not communication. What
does "acceptable" mean in such a case? Or what? Talk to them about what
it REALLY does, in immediate terms.

-=-and me fervently trying to explain why-=-

Too much talking.

-=- I haven't threatened with a loss
of freedom or privelages for YEARS now, and now here I was saying, "No
fighting or there will be some loss of freedom (I didn't say what kind
of loss of freedom,-=-

And they probably rightly guessed that you didn't know. It was a false
threat and your "punishment" would have caused more frustration and resentment and
more hitting, quite likely.

-=-  I'm still breaking up
fights every once in awhile, and still every once in awhile saying,
"Remember, it's just not acceptable to hit even if you're (angry,
frustrated, etc.).  It's not okay to threaten to dump soda on your
sister's head, it's not okay to hit him because he threatened to dump
soda on your head, it's not okay to hit her because she hit you
because you threatened to dump soda on your head. -=-

I would scream if you make a speech like that to me when I was already angry
enough to hit.
If someone is that angry, say "STOP!" and say it like you mean it. Say it
short and commandingly and get all but the one kid OUT of the room and wait
until they're gone out of earshot and then let him calm down and tell his side.

-=-And I'm still
sometimes hearing "I'm going to hit him no matter what you say, and
he's not my brother".-=-

Because your talking isn't helping.

-=-Matt said to me, "Mom, you told me not to hit my brother and not to
annoy him so that he wants to hit me.  But when you tell me that, YOU
annoy me.  I don't LIKE you telling me that." -=-

Their punishment is having to hear you talk and talk and talk in vague terms.

Here's how I've handled similar situations. The privacy is crucial:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting


Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/23/05 9:05:39 PM, jfischetto@... writes:


> The friends who may do things that I, as a
> parent, would hope my child does not want to do: stealing. alcohol,
> drugs, sex, etc.
>

Holly was offered drugs in England, both at a campout and on the street in
SoHo. Instead of saying "sure," she said no, and then told me about it in a
conversational "something exciting happened" way.

Marty has one particularly needy and nasty friend who would have sex with
Holly in a heartbeat if she made the offer (if he weren't afraid of her brothers
and me, who would hurt him before her really-big daddy ever even heard about
it, he might make the offer himself). We've warned her jokingly for years,
though, that Logan thinks she's cute and she should be careful about being
alone with Logan. It hasn't been said in an ominous, danger-way. And the boys
have jokingly warned Logan not to even THINK about Holly, and it's the kind of
joke that's not a joke. But honestly, Holly kinda likes him and it has
occurred to me that at some point in the future she might want to hang out with
him some on her own.

A couple of weeks before she was leaving for England, Logan actually said to
her (by phone), "We need to go out and do something before you leave for
England." I think she said yeah, maybe, or some such, but as soon as she got off
the phone she rolled her eyes and laughed and told me what he had said.
She spent the last two weeks packing and making lists and playing Halo2 as much
as she could, knowing she'd play none while she was gone.

-=-etc. At that point I need to trust in my child, right? Trust
that she will do what she feels is best for her, knowing she has
received the education concerning these things?-=-

You can't "trust" it if you don't do it.
And "education" isn't a good unschooling term. How will she have learned
about such things? With my kids it came from movies, conversations about those
movies; stories and conversations; song lyrics and conversations; accounts
from older friends about problems in relationships, and family stories and news
stories and conversations about those.


-=- I'm sure that weighs more heavily on my mind then someone who
has never had anything "criminal" happen to them but is the best
attitude to take a deep breath and have trust in a higher power?-=-

See above. Neither "trust" in what amounts to luck nor worry will keep a
child safe. The child's confidence and knowledge and relationship with the
parents and mental checklist of how to get out of sticky situations will keep her
safe. If you can afford a cellphone, make sure anyone who's out alone away
from the family has one with her.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/23/05 9:26:19 PM, arcarpenter@... writes:


>
> You gave Matt lots of great options, but it sounds like what he wanted
> was you (how flattering <G>).  You could have offered to get out with
> him for a few minutes, wrap him in a towel, maybe even run in to get
> him a snack, or just sit with him on the side of the pool for a minute
> or two, with an arm around him if he wanted.  I know that when I was a
> child and I was wet and getting kind of cold and shivery, it felt
> great to have an adult's strong hands wrap me up and dry me off. 
>
> Then you could get back in with Luke and play some more.  You could
> even alternate every few minutes, if the boys felt they each needed
> some more time with you.
>

Good ideas. Maybe you could've aske Luke to get out with you, take care of
what Matt wanted, and then get back in with a bigger bucket to fill the
floatie even faster.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

> Where was his dad?

At home. It was his first day off of work, he was tired and needing
to recuperate, and we were having computer problems and he was home
trying to fix the computers while we were out of the house.

> You were at someone else's house and one of your children really
wanted to be
> with you privately. I would have called the dad and see which
child seemed
> most willing to have the dad replace you in the situation.

This was one of those moms getting together with the kids get
togethers. Dh isn't a very social person and he was tired from a long
week of work. He wouldn't have been comfortable getting in someone
else's pool and would have been just annoyed with me if I asked him to
come and get Matt dressed and hang out in someone else's house with
him. He would have been willing to come get Matt and take him home
(15 minute drive) but Matt didn't want that.

> -=-But he didn't stop when I told him to, and I spent probably 15
> minutes keeping him from hitting me--telling him no, holding his hands
> so he couldn't hit, until he finally gave up. -=-

You were in a swimming
> pool. Why didn't you just cast yourself off and get out of his
reach? Why didn'
> t anyone else who was there that day go and get the other parent, or
come and
> try to distract the child?

I tried that. He's a strong swimmer, stronger than me. The other
adult who was there leans more to the "there's no reason why he needs
his mom just to get out of the pool" side of things.

> -=- I can do it now, but in
> a few years he might be physically stronger than me.-=-
>
> If by then you haven't discussed and developed other ways to
communicate,
> that will be a lack of communication. When he doesn't need you,
when you're not
> busy and he's not busy, discuss that. Ask him and listen to him
about why
> he needed you so immediately, and figure out ways for him to
communicate to you
> what he needs in words.

I think he just wanted me to be with him. And his brother wanted me
to be with him. In two different places. I chose to stay with the
littler one who was still in the pool. Luke can handle being in the
pool without me--he can swim on his own--but he would have been upset.
From where he was in his intertube he couldn't reach the water in the
pool to fill up his bucket, and the whole project would have been shot
and he would have been angry and hostile toward his brother for taking
me away from him.

> -=- If he had been
> the only child who needed me to be doing something with him, then I
> would have gotten out of the pool right away with him--but that wasn't
> the case. I had another child who would have been equally upset-=-
>
> But whose need was greater? One had a greater need, and it's
possible you
> could have given both PART of what they wanted, instead of (as it
seems)
> depriving both of your kind attention.

That's the difficult part for me. I couldn't figure out how to meet
even part of both needs. Chances are if I had gotten out with Matt,
Luke would have cried and been upset because *he* wanted me with him.


> If someone is that angry, say "STOP!" and say it like you mean it.
Say it
> short and commandingly and get all but the one kid OUT of the room
and wait
> until they're gone out of earshot and then let him calm down and
tell his side.

But what if you say stop and they don't stop, you tell others to leave
the room and they don't leave, or they get mad at you for asking them
to leave, or mad at you for intervening in the fight? "I WANT to hurt
him, and you can't stop me". And of course you can stop them, but
they get mad at you for stopping them.

> Here's how I've handled similar situations. The privacy is crucial:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

Okay, I have some questions from that article: "What has worked best
is taking the one away and letting him tell me what happened. While
he's calming down and stating his case, I'm asking him what he did to
try to make things better. "Did you think of doing this?" "No," or
"Yes, but it didn't work." "

What do you do if you give all the suggestions you can think of, and
they say "Yes, but it didn't work" and then they say, "So if you can't
give me any suggestions that I like, then I'm going to hurt him"?

For example, one child wants to hurt her brother because he's
constantly and purposefully annoying her (with a big grin on his face,
acting as if nothing could give him greater pleasure than upsetting
his sister), and I can't get the child to stop annoying. I might be
able to get him to stop annoying that moment, or that day, but if it
starts right up again the next day and she's frustrated and says, "I'm
NOT going to go through this every day, today I AM going to hurt him".

"But I remind them that I'm responsible for seeing that BOTH of them
are safe in their own homes, and happy."

Did they ever resond with, "But I don't WANT you to care about him and
I hate him and he's not my brother and I don't want him to live here
anymore"? Usually when I say that kind of thing it just gets them
MORE angry.

"I remind Kirby he's older and has a responsibility to show some
maturity and set an example (as appropriate, if appropriate). And I
tell him yada yada, Marty needs to be safe in his own home, and not
feel like his life is ruined because he has an older brother who's
bullying him (if appropriate...)"

And they accept this? They don't argue back at you? "That's not
fair" or "But he's a jerk" or anything? I get so frustrated when I
deal with fighting the way you described and while I might stop the
fighting at the moment, everyone leaves feeling annoyed at ME. They
leave angry at ME because I made them stop fighting, and not because I
don't give them lots of sympathy and empathy and understanding.

I think a big reason why the fighting has escalated is because I got
frustrated and felt that *I* couldn't deal with anymore so I just
started walking away. AND because after I've been doing stuff for
other people for 6, 7 hours with no break for time for myself, I'm
ready to just walk away and say ENOUGH!

I know that just walking away isn't the answer, and I can see that the
result of doing that is even more fighting. It's just tiring! And
yeah, I know that parenting can be tiring. I just wonder if I get
more tired from it than most people, if my kids have a tendency to
fight more than other kids, if I just have to keep perservering, etc.
I know people who have sent their kids to school because they
couldn't stand the fighting and needed the time for themselves and I
know *that's* not the answer for me.

I think it would be helpful to be a fly on the wall of other
households sometimes. ;)

Sheila

Angela S.

Someone else asked this, but I think it bears repeating. How present are
you with the kids during the day? Are you off cleaning the house and
cooking or are you in the same room with the kids, tuned in to what they are
doing? When they have small disagreements, are you there to help them work
things out, to help them state their cases and to make sure they listen to
each other

I spent the first 5 years of my kids' lives on the floor with them or in the
same room tuned into what they were doing. I helped them work things out
and negotiate what they wanted. They are now 8 and 10 and I can't even
imagine anything like what you explained between your children.

The first time I heard one of them called the other a name, we talked about
name calling and what made that person frustrated to begin with. We worked
through the issues until both kids were satisfied that they were listened to
and understood. Name calling isn't an issue at my house. The same goes
for hitting.

It isn't too late to be present and to help them work things through. I'd
recommend you spend a lot of time listening to the kids play and helping
them communicate.

Angela
game-enthusiast@...

kayb85

> Someone else asked this, but I think it bears repeating. How
present are
> you with the kids during the day? Are you off cleaning the house
and
> cooking or are you in the same room with the kids, tuned in to what
they are
> doing?

Off cleaning the house? Heavens, no. ;)

Seriously though, I wish I would have been an unschooler/attachment
parenting/gentle parenting mom from the beginning. About 10 years ago
there was a period of about 2 years, starting right around the time
my oldest daughter was 4 and my middle child was born, when I got so
involved in church work that I might as well have been working full
time. I nursed the baby and took care of the basics, and did school-
at-home with the oldest but didn't play *with* them much at all.

Then I eventually became an unschooler and swung in the opposite
direction so extremely that I kind of made myself a servant to them.
I took the "try not to say no" advice too literally because I didn't
know how to have personal limits and didn't know how to do anything
nice for myself. Hard to explain, but they literally got in
arguments over who got me first (they never wanted to play games
together, they always wanted just my attention one on one) and
demanded my time from the time I got up til the time I got in bed.
Like the first words out of each child's mouth in the morning would
be asking me if I would play a game with just him before I played a
game with anyone else, and then the next person would claim the next
time slot, and before the day would even be started I'd be filled up
with promises to do stuff with them, often with more promised than I
could possibly accomplish and me not getting enough sleep trying to
get everything done. I took NO time for myself for quite awhile,
literally just giving into demands all day, every day.

Then people on this list started talking about moms having their own
interests, and I didn't understand how anyone could have their own
interests and be an unschooler. I figured anything I was interested
in would have to wait until the kids were grown. And my homeopath
started talking about respecting myself and loving myself--totally
new concepts for me that took awhile to adjust to. So I started
finding things I was interested in, and had to adjust and learn to
balance time for myself with time for the kids.

We're finding that balance, and things are pretty good, except that
sometimes, at least once a day--if we have a day with no fighting
it's rare--I'm dealing with fighting.

Yes, I'm present with them for a good part of the day now. But
sometimes now, after I've done stuff for and with them for several
hours, I take a book of my own and sit and read it, or ask for some
uninterrupted internet time, or go to the park and do some writing of
my own, or get together with one of my friends.

> I spent the first 5 years of my kids' lives on the floor with them
or in the
> same room tuned into what they were doing. I helped them work
things out
> and negotiate what they wanted. They are now 8 and 10 and I can't
even
> imagine anything like what you explained between your children.

If life had a rewind button, I'd go back and do things that way. :)
I was just so insecure myself, had no confidence in my ability to
trust my own instincts let alone trust my kids, I thought I had to be
doing something "productive" to be worthwhile (serving God through
the church or serving my husband or being a good housekeeper or
meeting the physical needs of my children or teaching them what I was
told they need to know), and had never ever seen anyone parent any
way other than the strict James Dobson kind of way. I didn't have
the internet when I was pregnant with my first--if I had, gosh, life
would have been different. The road to unschooling was NOT an easy
road for us. We had to struggle to get where we are now, but I'm
glad we're here. :)

> It isn't too late to be present and to help them work things
through. I'd
> recommend you spend a lot of time listening to the kids play and
helping
> them communicate.

I'm going to keep working on it. I really want them to learn to get
along. My poor kids have had to do a lot of adjusting to me learning
to be the kind of person I want to be. Hopefully you're right that it
isn't too late. :)

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/24/05 1:39:24 PM, sheran@... writes:


> And of course you can stop them, but
> they get mad at you for stopping them. 
>

If your neighbor came over and was hitting one of your boys wouldn't you stop
him?
Would you care if he got mad at you for stopping him?

Does one of your boys have the legal or moral right to hit another one?
Will you as a mother allow ANYone to hit one of your children?

Each child has the right to be safe in his own home. You need to enforce
that.

-=-What do you do if you give all the suggestions you can think of, and
they say "Yes, but it didn't work"-=-

They have never BEGUN to try all the things I can think of.

-=-and then they say, "So if you can't
give me any suggestions that I like, then I'm going to hurt him"? 
-=-

It's never happened.

-=-
Did they ever resond with, "But I don't WANT you to care about him and
I hate him and he's not my brother and I don't want him to live here
anymore"? -=-

Have yours?
Are we talking hypothetical? Because I've given the best advice I can give
and my kids are 13, 16 and 18 and get along pretty well, after years and years
of figuring out how to get more space and have more privacy, they figured out
what the others need, where their own limits and others' are, adn they know
I'll help them if they need it.

-=-And they accept this?  They don't argue back at you?  "That's not
fair" or "But he's a jerk" or anything?-=-

They used to, but my constant response was "this won't make it better."

-=-  I get so frustrated when I
deal with fighting the way you described and while I might stop the
fighting at the moment, everyone leaves feeling annoyed at ME. -=-

The I think maybe you're not doing it the way I described it, because there
should be peace at the end, not annoyance.

-=-I think a big reason why the fighting has escalated is because I got
frustrated and felt that *I* couldn't deal with anymore so I just
started walking away.-=-

I've never done that. I think you might want to consider not ever doing it
anymore. If someone was fighting with you, would you want all other people
to walk away and leave you at that person's mercy?

If you can't figure out something really clever, maybe just take one kid
aside if stress starts. Stop it before there's yelling or fighting. Try to
teach them tricks for recognizing when it's getting stressful and what to do to
make it better. Breathing, walking, going to pet the dog, something...

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/24/05 5:38:46 PM, sheran@... writes:


> I figured anything I was interested
> in would have to wait until the kids were grown.
>

You might have to. If they were needy after the period that you were doing
church work, that was a situation created within the family that needs to be
solved within the family. Maybe your husband needs to figure out ways to give
you more one-on-one time with individual kids.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

-=-I think a big reason why the fighting has escalated is because I got
frustrated and felt that *I* couldn't deal with anymore so I just
started walking away.-=-

**I've never done that. I think you might want to consider not ever
doing it
anymore. If someone was fighting with you, would you want all other
people
to walk away and leave you at that person's mercy?**

Did anyone mention the calming technique of taking a few deep breaths
and of teaching the kids to take deep breaths when aggravated or stressed?

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/24/2005 2:39:23 PM Central Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:

What do you do if you give all the suggestions you can think of, and
they say "Yes, but it didn't work" and then they say, "So if you can't
give me any suggestions that I like, then I'm going to hurt him"?




~~~

I don't have a bit of trouble with "No, you're not. I can stop you, and I
will."

How can I look the victim child in the eye if I don't stop the bullying one?
If the bully is going to push me to my limit, then he's pushed me to my
limit and I will stop him, with physical force if necessary (no, I don't mean
spanking).

I just read the rest of your post, and your house needs an intervention. Or
a backbone. Forget about unschooling or peaceful parenting. I can be quite
intimidating and I *would* be, if that's what I had to do to bring my home
back into balance. And I wouldn't give a flying flip if they were annoyed at
me or mad at me or getting their feelings hurt. The alternative is the junk
that's going on, and that just wouldn't be acceptable to me.

I'd put everything else off and fix this quick, if I were you.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dejahthoris78

Well, Im an old Mom, I have kids between 27 and 7.. so I think you
have to teach a child way younger than 8 that hitting is a no no. My
youngest hit a younger neighbor child once when he was about 5. I told
him in no uncertain terms that this was "not cool" and sent him to his
room for like a whole ten minutes. You would think the world ended...
(Punishment is extremely rare in my home, that was his only time out
in his life) but he got the message. I think it's about what message
you are sending and how you send it. I personally feel its extremely
important to let your children know violence is not the way to solve
problems at a very early age. I also think it's a bad idea to
over-analyze a given situation when it comes to a child using
violence, especially against a parent. They get bigger than you.


[email protected], "kayb85" <sheran@p...> wrote:
>
> > Anyway, yes, it goes well beyond saying "This is why you
> > shouldn't hit mommy ..." ;-
>
> So I'm wondering, what would you say to a child who is hitting mommy?
> If you tell him firmly to stop and he says no and continues anyway?
>
> I ask, because I can give a real life recent example. I'll tell what
> I did, but I wonder if others would handle it differently.
>
> We were swimming at a friend's house. Luke (who's 6) was in a big
> inter-tube type thing that he was filling up with water. He was
> handing me the plastic bucket, and I was filling it up with water and
> handing it to him. Matt (who's 8)had been playing with us but got
> sick of it and wanted to get out of the pool. Luke heard him ask me
> to get out of the pool with him and got upset and said in a pleading
> kind of voice, "No, don't get out of the pool, I want you to stay here
> with me". So I had one boy begging me to stay in with him and one boy
> begging me to get out with him. So I told Matt that I wanted to stay
> in with Luke for awhile, but that he could wrap up in a towel and sit
> on the deck and talk with us. Or he could change into dry clothes and
> come back down and sit on the deck and be with us. Or he could go
> into the house, where his sister and friend were, and watch tv, play
> with toys or video games, get a snack and drink, etc. Or I would call
> his dad, who wouldn't mind coming to get him and take him home and
> hang out with him for awhile. None of that satisfied him, and he just
> insisted that I get out NOW. He started pulling on me and I just
> calmly told him that no, Luke needed me in the pool right now, and
> re-stated his options. I was trying to think of new options that
> would satisfy both boys but wasn't coming up with anything else.
>
> When pulling on me didn't work, he started hitting and punching. He
> said "Come now" over and over. So I held his hands to keep him from
> hitting me, and told him to stop, that I wouldn't tolerate him hitting
> me. But he didn't stop when I told him to, and I spent probably 15
> minutes keeping him from hitting me--telling him no, holding his hands
> so he couldn't hit, until he finally gave up. He went in and got
> changed, got himself a drink, and came out to the pool deck and sat
> down and talked to us. But obviously, what I would like to figure out
> is how to avoid that kind of struggle. I shouldn't have to hold an 8
> year old back from hitting me for 15 minutes. I can do it now, but in
> a few years he might be physically stronger than me. If he had been
> the only child who needed me to be doing something with him, then I
> would have gotten out of the pool right away with him--but that wasn't
> the case. I had another child who would have been equally upset if I
> HAD gotten out of the pool with Matt.
>
> I have a similar issue with kids hitting each other. The fighting
> escalated for awhile during the last few months. I've told them it's
> not acceptable. I've told them to come to me when they're frustrated
> and talk to me first before they hit--they sometimes do and they
> sometimes don't. There is still sometimes hitting and kicking and
> crying and "he hit me first" and "he hit me so now I AM going to hit
> him back, and don't try to stop me" and me holding frustrated kids
> back and me fervently trying to explain why you shouldn't hit your
> mommy or brother or sister.
>
> Once, after a particularly nasty fist fight that involved all 3 kids
> including the 12 year old, I just sat them down and said, "Look, you
> guys have an incredible amount of freedom and incredible opportunities
> to do all kinds of cool things that lots of kids don't have. We have
> a really cool lifestyle here and when fights like this happen our life
> isn't anywhere near as fun and nice as it could be for any of us. If
> you want to continue to have the amount of freedom that you have, this
> kind of fighting can't continue." I haven't threatened with a loss
> of freedom or privelages for YEARS now, and now here I was saying, "No
> fighting or there will be some loss of freedom (I didn't say what kind
> of loss of freedom, just kind of emphasized that the kind of fighting
> that's been happening more and more lately simply can't continue or
> (something that I didn't describe).
>
> I'm not entirely happy with the way I worded it to them, but at the
> time it was the best I could come up with.
>
> So they wanted to know "or what" specifically. What would I do if
> they continue to hurt each other? Would they have to go to school?
> Would I start being as strict as some other moms that we know? What
> specifically? In other words, is it worth it to them to stop hurting
> each other? What are the stakes?
>
> The thing is, they know me well. They know I won't send them to
> school. They know I won't ground them or take away stuff. They know
> I won't even threaten to. So I just told them, "Look, let's not even
> talk about what I *could* do. You know I don't want to make you go to
> school or get real strict with you. But this is important. I
> wouldn't be making this big of a deal about it if it isn't. As a
> family, it's important to all of us to have a home where people don't
> get hurt, so let's just all work toward having this be a place where
> people don't have to worry about getting hurt because that's a good
> deal for everyone".
>
> And since that talk, things *have* been better. I'm still breaking up
> fights every once in awhile, and still every once in awhile saying,
> "Remember, it's just not acceptable to hit even if you're (angry,
> frustrated, etc.). It's not okay to threaten to dump soda on your
> sister's head, it's not okay to hit him because he threatened to dump
> soda on your head, it's not okay to hit her because she hit you
> because you threatened to dump soda on your head. And I'm still
> sometimes hearing "I'm going to hit him no matter what you say, and
> he's not my brother".
>
> Matt said to me, "Mom, you told me not to hit my brother and not to
> annoy him so that he wants to hit me. But when you tell me that, YOU
> annoy me. I don't LIKE you telling me that."
>
> But so far I've been able to keep things from escalating into anything
> big.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Sheila

Angela S.

> Seriously though, I wish I would have been an unschooler/attachment
> parenting/gentle parenting mom from the beginning.

Better late than never. But it does sound like the boys don't think you are
serious about the not hitting. Sandra has said it before but each of your
kids needs to feel safe in their own home. That is what I would focus on
for the time being. Get that under control first.


> Then I eventually became an unschooler and swung in the opposite
> direction so extremely that I kind of made myself a servant to them.

Not a healthy way to live either. :( People (including kids) will only
treat you as badly as you allow them to. I don't know if you have someone
in your life with whom you have a healthy give and take relationship, but if
you do, try to think of how you would interact with them in any given
circumstances and try to carry that over to your children.

Hard to explain, but they literally got in
> arguments over who got me first (they never wanted to play games
> together, they always wanted just my attention one on one) and
> demanded my time from the time I got up til the time I got in bed.

That is sad that they felt so needy. I would hope you could spend a little
one on one time with each of them but also include the other kids in the
games you play. It doesn't feel good to feel left out either.

> Then people on this list started talking about moms having their own
> interests, and I didn't understand how anyone could have their own
> interests and be an unschooler.

When my kids were really little, I didn't have much time for my own
interests unless they were sleeping. But it was time well invested. Maybe
you need to invest that time now, since you didn't when they were little.
Then when they are feeling more stable and loved you will begin to have time
for yourself.

> Yes, I'm present with them for a good part of the day now. But
> sometimes now, after I've done stuff for and with them for several
> hours, I take a book of my own and sit and read it, or ask for some
> uninterrupted internet time, or go to the park and do some writing of
> my own, or get together with one of my friends.

Still now, if I am doing something for myself and things start to go
downhill between the girls, I stop what I am doing and address the
situation. My kids getting along is one of my top priorities, more so than
my time for myself. And the better they get at working things out for
themselves, the more time I have for myself in the end anyway.

Angela

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], "kayb85" <sheran@p...>
wrote:

==That's the difficult part for me. I couldn't figure out how to meet
> even part of both needs. Chances are if I had gotten out with Matt,
> Luke would have cried and been upset because *he* wanted me with
him. ==

Then you need to give that back to your kids, and say, "I'm not sure
how to help everyone here, but I want to." Even if they know that you
want to, that's huge. It looks like you keep thinking you have to
know all the answers right away, or at least figure them out on your
own. Bring your kids in on the process. More below.

== What do you do if you give all the suggestions you can think of, and
> they say "Yes, but it didn't work" and then they say, "So if you can't
> give me any suggestions that I like, then I'm going to hurt him"==

You also mentioned that after you were done problem-solving, your kids
were often still annoyed at you. To me, that says that you may not be
bringing in empathy and validation of feelings enough.

In my experience, if my son is still annoyed with me, it's because I
jumped to pure problem-solving mode too early. (i.e., "What can we do
differently?") He feels like nobody understands him -- he still wants
a chance to get his side of the story out and to really be heard and
validated.

He may even have some ideas about how things could go differently, if
I would stop popping in with my suggestions.

So if your kids are saying, "Whatever, if he does that again I'm going
to hurt him," it sounds like they need you to be with them in that
emotional place for a bit. "It seems just intolerable when he does
that, right? You can't stand it, you feel like you're going to
explode when he does it, you hate it so much. Is that it or is there
something else?" (It can look really gimpy in print, but you can make
it sound like a kind friend and not use the sing-song mommy voice at
all.)

And then let them keep talking, or correct you, and you just keep
validating how hard that is for them. Let them really vent it all to
you as long as they need to, without jumping to the mode of, "Well,
that may be, but we need to fix this."

And you can even go so far as, "I can understand that -- if someone
were doing that to me, I'd find it so hard to handle. I remember once
when I was a kid ..." Usually, as I'm talking to my son, I do
remember a similar situation happening to me when I was a child, so I
tell a brief version of it and I tell how I felt. I don't move on to
"and the moral of the story is" or anything. It's a way to get myself
in my child's head, and for him to realize that mom really does know
what he's talking about.

In my experience, my kids just melt when I empathize with them and
they feel heard. That's the key for them getting out of defensive
mode, and *only* when they are out of defensive mode are they open to
problem-solving. If you move to straight problem-solving mode too
soon, they are being asked to ignore or deny their own feelings.

For that reason, I do think of validating and empathizing as the
first, key, essential step of problem-solving, though I didn't specify
that when I first posted about problem-solving.

In our house, nothing works without this step.

Peace,
Amy

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:

>== Forget about unschooling or peaceful parenting.==

A lot of the techniques of peaceful parenting are also the techniques
of nonviolence and mediation. They are meant to de-escalate and
neutralize violence. Though I agree that physical safety comes first,
and that you must physically intervene and remain present in order to
stop anyone from getting hurt, I wouldn't suggest you "forget about"
peaceful parenting. It sounds like you're here to learn how to do it
in a way that actually helps your situation and your household.

How To Talk So Kids Will Listen
Siblings Without Rivalry
Nonviolent Communication

Any and all of these books may help (the first two are really easy
reads), but all of them will take some time to implement. You
probably need to commit yourself to that, and remain vigilant about
keeping everyone in the home safe.

Peace,
Amy

wifetovegman2002

> -=- I'm sure that weighs more heavily on my mind then someone who
> has never had anything "criminal" happen to them but is the best
> attitude to take a deep breath and have trust in a higher power?-=-
>


Trusting in a higher power is great...but hundreds/thousands of
conversations with your daughter is what will give her the information
she needs to make wise decisions about her relationships with boys and
young men.

~Susan M. (in VA)
wifetovegman

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/2005 9:10:01 AM Central Standard Time,
arcarpenter@... writes:

A lot of the techniques of peaceful parenting are also the techniques
of nonviolence and mediation. They are meant to de-escalate and
neutralize violence. Though I agree that physical safety comes first,
and that you must physically intervene and remain present in order to
stop anyone from getting hurt, I wouldn't suggest you "forget about"
peaceful parenting. It sounds like you're here to learn how to do it
in a way that actually helps your situation and your household.



~~~

You don't know me very well.

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela S.

>
> You don't know me very well.
>
> Karen

I don't understand this comment. What do you mean by it?

Angela
game-enthusiast@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/2005 11:11:07 AM Central Standard Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:

You don't know me very well.
>
> Karen

I don't understand this comment. What do you mean by it?




~~~

You said it appeared that I was here to learn something--maybe you have me
confused with the original poster who is having trouble with her kids
fighting. I'm not her.

I'm a long-term unschooler with grown children. I did say "forget about
unschooling or peaceful parenting". I still mean it. The family in the OP
needs something besides just more talk. It needs action now to stop one child
from hurting the other (And again, I don't mean spanking). If that appears
"violent" to people who practice "non-violent communication", so be it.

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/05 9:44:28 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:


>
> You don't know me very well.
>
>

We can't talk about the issues and ideas if it gets personal.
Keep to the ideas, please.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
== It sounds like you're here to learn how to do it
> in a way that actually helps your situation and your household.
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> You don't know me very well.
==

Sorry Karen, I wasn't clear. The "you" who is here to learn how to do
peaceful parenting better is Sheila, the original poster. I've seen
your posts often on the lists. I was speaking to Sheila throughout my
post, as a response to what you said.

Peace,
Amy

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/05 5:48:22 AM, vivific@... writes:


> I think you
> have to teach a child way younger than 8 that hitting is a no no.
>

You can't teach him, but maybe you can figure out ways to help him
understand it.

-=- I also think it's a bad idea to
over-analyze a given situation when it comes to a child using
violence, especially against a parent. They get bigger than you.-=-

This isn't very helpful, though, without suggesting what you think WILL help.
There is analysis (which IS very helpful) and "over analysis" which is
sometimes a term used by those without the ability to analyze a social situation.

There are other unpalanced situations where analysis is insufficient, or
perhaps analysis is ALL that's happening, without any accompanying discussion or
action.

In the original question here, there seemed to be too much verbalization of
analysis. Some people talk to think (or write to think as seems to be lots of
the purpose of this list, which isn't too bad a deal). If the talking is
aimed aloud at a very young child, though, he might have to learn to ignore the
mom because so many of her words aren't useful to him.

Analysis should include thoughts of how many words a child in a state of
frustration can really hear, and what level of ideas he's old enough to
comprehend.

Sandra


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[email protected]

In a message dated 7/25/05 7:40:53 AM, arcarpenter@... writes:


> You also mentioned that after you were done problem-solving, your kids
> were often still annoyed at you.  To me, that says that you may not be
> bringing in empathy and validation of feelings enough. 
>

I think it might say there was lots of verbalization and very little actual
problem solving. If the anger isn't gone, the problem isn't really solved.

-=-And then let them keep talking, or correct you, and you just keep
validating how hard that is for them.  Let them really vent it all to
you as long as they need to, without jumping to the mode of, "Well,
that may be, but we need to fix this."-=-

Good point. Each needs to say all he wants to say about it. And sometimes
one of my kids has an entirely legitimate point about something irrritating
another one does, and the best I can say is
"When that starts to bother you, try to get in another room for a while; try
to get away from it," or "He might grow out of that, and making a big deal
about it won't help."

Admitting there are legitimate irritations is honest sympathy. I remind my
kids (and they don't need as much reminding as they get older) that what might
drive them crazy about another friend of theirs might be the thing other
people like a lot about him or her. Not everyone likes the same things.

-=-And you can even go so far as, "I can understand that -- if someone
were doing that to me, I'd find it so hard to handle.  I remember once
when I was a kid ..."   Usually, as I'm talking to my son, I do
remember a similar situation happening to me when I was a child, so I
tell a brief version of it and I tell how I felt. -=-

I share stories of how I felt about my sister, or how my sister must have
felt about me (as the firstborn) as appropriate.

I always go back to the other person and paraphrase the complaints, to give
that other kid a chance to consider how to avoid similar situations in the
future.

They are constantly getting older and wiser.

Sandra



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arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
==I did say "forget about
> unschooling or peaceful parenting". I still mean it. The family
in the OP
> needs something besides just more talk. It needs action now to
stop one child
> from hurting the other (And again, I don't mean spanking). If
that appears
> "violent" to people who practice "non-violent communication", so
be it.
==

I'm the one who questioned "forgetting peaceful parenting." Let me
clarify, since I'm not calling what you're saying violent and that
wasn't my point in questioning what you said.

I don't think that stopping a child from getting hurt is violent. I
think ensuring that a household is safe for everyone is peaceful,
and I said in that previous post that I agreed that she needed to
physically intervene to keep people safe.

But if a mom is still learning the principles of peaceful parenting,
principles which also work toward creating a safe household, then I
wouldn't want her to just forget them. I wouldn't want her to throw
those out as unworkable, "because my kids hit and that's
different." I think she needs a "both/and" approach, not
an "either/or" approach.

As a general principle, when a person is heading towards violence,
if you can actively listen to them, and if you can address their
needs (the needs that are driving them to violence) and if you can
treat them like a real person deserving of respect and trust,
violence will often de-escalate. I've seen it work not just in
families but at political protests where people and police are
starting to push and shove. When done well, it has a history of
working between warring factions and in situations that are nearing
litigation. But yes, the ground rule has to be that nobody gets
hurt, and that will be enforced.

So to get down to specifics, because maybe that will be a more
helpful discussion to the original poster (and others). This is the
kind of intervention that I've used in my house, both ensuring
everyone's safety *and* using the principles of peaceful parenting
and good (nonviolent) communication:

The mom here might need to insist that one of the children leave the
room, or go to their room or to a private place. She can say, "You
need to leave (or "we are going to leave the room") because I cannot
let you hurt your brother/sister. I wouldn't let anyone come in
here and hurt you, and I will not let you hurt them." She can have
a backbone and mean it, but at least she's telling them why it's
going on -- that the intent is peaceful. She can carry someone out
if she needs to, and she can do it in a restraining way,
nonviolently.

(I'm very eager to hear about what others would do to enforce the
principle that nobody gets hurt, since that seems to be where some
of the questions are arising. Would you do more than remove the
child? Would you take away what they were fighting about, if it
were an item? I'm asking because I know Karen and Sandra and others
*are* experienced at this, so I'd like to learn what they would
physically do to ensure everyone's safety.)

But after she's made sure everyone else is okay, she can also come
back to the child who was hitting or going to hit, with an offering
of the child's favorite drink, perhaps. If the child is still
raging but not hitting, she can sit with the child, just breathing
and being there with the child. If the child is hitting, yes, she
needs to leave.

But when the child is able to talk, the mom doesn't have to be
punitive. She can sympathize and listen and not focus on the
hitting at first, but focus on the emotions and the needs of that
child. (The mom can share her own emotions -- "you scared me when
it looked like you would hit, and I knew I had to stop that.") Then
they can talk about ways to handle these feelings and needs other
than hitting.

Then the reminder that hurting others really isn't going to fly can
come gently, with ideas about things that will work.

And I agree with Sandra's idea about relating the key points to the
other person involved -- the parent can act as interpreter and
mediator, so the real message is conveyed.

Focusing only on the hitting might be focusing on a symptom, not the
underlying cause. That's why I think using good communication *as
well* is a good idea. I found the concepts in nonviolent
communication to be good ones, but if someone doesn't like that
title, if it sounds too politically correct or something, they don't
have to use it.

Peace,
Amy