[email protected]

Here's a fresh example of how this works in real life, kids learning to write
and spell. Holly's upstairs in the kitchen or Kirby's room, I don't know
which. She's 13 and writes LOTS better now than she did a year ago. I know
there are unschoolers her age who write better, and some who are doing other
things than writing, but she's getting faster and more at ease.

HollyLynnDodd: hey do spell stalking like stalking like to stalk someone?
or is that like to go out and kill a whole bunch of stalks.
SandraDodd: stalk
SandraDodd: It has to do with walking quietly behind someone,
SandraDodd: hunters might stalk a deer.
HollyLynnDodd: but they don't stalk a stalk?
SandraDodd: stocking is what they do to shelves at new stores.
SandraDodd: The stalking isn't the killing, it's the following around
sneakily.
HollyLynnDodd: or is a stalk not a kind of bird
SandraDodd: You can't stalk the stalk because it's not moving.
SandraDodd: Stalk is a plant that grows up straight and hard. Celery.
Corn.
SandraDodd: Corn stalk
HollyLynnDodd: maybe I'm thinking of a stork
SandraDodd: or a stalk of celery
SandraDodd: One could stalk a stork, until the stork flies away. <g>
SandraDodd: I think if you follow by air you're trailing, not stalking. <
g>
HollyLynnDodd: what about what like the stalking I got in london
SandraDodd: I didn't know you were stalked in London.
HollyLynnDodd: the tights
SandraDodd: Did you get stockings? Socks?
SandraDodd: Stockings.
HollyLynnDodd: yes
HollyLynnDodd: ahh I see
SandraDodd: Like ho-ho-ho stockings
HollyLynnDodd: ?
HollyLynnDodd: ho-ho-ho?
SandraDodd: Although a stalker might have a stocking over his head, but
that wouldn't be very sneaky.
HollyLynnDodd: OH I get it
SandraDodd: Christmas...
SandraDodd: oh you get it.
HollyLynnDodd: okay, thanks
SandraDodd: okay you're welcome.


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Pam Sorooshian

On Jun 24, 2005, at 1:13 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Here's a fresh example of how this works in real life, kids learning
> to write
> and spell. Holly's upstairs in the kitchen or Kirby's room, I
> don't know
> which. She's 13 and writes LOTS better now than she did a year ago.
> I know
> there are unschoolers her age who write better, and some who are doing
> other
> things than writing, but she's getting faster and more at ease.

That was great to read and such a good example of how an unschooling
parent can interact with their kid.

Rosie and Roya spent several hours yesterday organizing Roya's cd
collection. She has 284 cd's. They debated categories, and then debated
which category to put each cd into.

This kind of thinking is hard to "categorize" in school subject terms,
but deep in my soul I know that it is incredibly valuable kind of
thinking.

I guess that's because the biggest limitation I see in my college
students is just a general lack of ability to think clearly - it is
like all their thoughts are mushed in together and they can't separate
out what is relevant and what isn't - they can't categorize what is
more significant from what is less.

In organizing the cd's, what the girls were debating was what the most
relevant characteristics were of each cd and looking for patterns in
what characteristics they had in common.

-pam

Brandie

I totally loved reading that. I know the point was more to show Holly's writing, but what I loved so much was how patient and wonderful you are to your children. This to me was a PERFECT example of how unschooling should work. It is parental involvement -- taking time with them -- to answer their questions -- to be there for them. This one little message showed all of that. So many parents will say they do this, but don't.

How involved a prent must be to successfully unschool is big on my mind right now as someone on a local homeschooling list seems to think that unschooling means that we as parents don't do anything. So, I have been explaining how unschooling works quite a bit today.



Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/05 5:54:05 AM, scrapdiva73@... writes:


> This to me was a PERFECT example of how unschooling should work.  It is
> parental involvement -- taking time with them -- to answer their questions -- to
> be there for them. 
>

Thanks.

When people talk about "teachable moments" (rarely unschoolers) it sounds
kind of oogie, but there ARE moments when someone asks a question and really
cares about the answer. I've always tried to add one more bit, one connection,
or one contrast, and not consciously, like a little terminator pulldown menu,
but just to throw in one piece of bonus info. Then sometimes the
conversation continues a bit, as it did with Holly in that IM, and sometimes it doesn't,
and that's cool. Sometimes it goes on and ON, and picks up the next day, and
that can be pretty fun.

With words and spelling, I've tried to name another related word, or if I
know the reason for a spelling oddity, I usually say so, briefly. Holly has
for a couple of months been using the phrase "as opposed to," but earlier in the
spring she would say "opposed to," and I corrected her and said the phrase is
"as opposed to," so she got it right and uses it lots.

She had left me an e-mail about a typo on the webpage about her England trip,
and used it but had never written it or seen it written, so she wrote "as
aposed to," and I wrote back that I'd fixed the typo, and that it was spelled
"opposed" as in "opposite" and "opposition," but I didn't know exactly what the
"op" meant. I didn't look it up right then, but either Holly will or I will
sometime, probably. Or not. <g>

And night before last she said "thrice" about something, and asked if thrice
was really a word, and I said yes, like twice. We talked about there not
being one for "four times," and that of the series once, twice, thrice, north
Americans only really use the first two anymore. We talked about "twins" and
"twilight," both very old English words, and the t-w-o spelling of "two,"
which used to be pronounced (and spelled, sometimes) "twa."

It's easier not to be cranky that "two" is spelled that way if you think of
twins at twilight twice. "Twilight" is two lights, half-and-half day and
night.

It's easy to be cranky about "to" "too" and "two" until you remember it's
cool that we don't have to wonder which one it is when we're reading, and in
context you can tell. It's only in the unnatural arena of school's spelling
tests and all that it gets so confusing. In the natural world it's not so hard
to learn the differences.

Sandra


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Elizabeth Hill

**I totally loved reading that. I know the point was more to show
Holly's writing, but what I loved so much was how patient and wonderful
you are to your children. This to me was a PERFECT example of how
unschooling should work. It is parental involvement -- taking time with
them -- to answer their questions -- to be there for them. **

This is a point worth underlining. Having seen Sandra interact with Holly (look I have one data point and I'm making a theory out of it!), I would say that sweet is an excellent word to describe it. People who've only seen her logical side in online conversation may not be able to imagine how consistent this is in her parenting. (Even if you HAVE heard the plum shopping story.) And Sandra has a musical voice which also sweetens everything she says, but it completely washes out in online text, unless you imagine it back in. This medium has big limitations! As a perpetual comedian, it really bothers me that I can't put the proper comic timing and inflection in my comments. Nor can I smile winsomely. ;-)

OK, back to the topic...

I think my mothering style has picked up too much sitcom mom sarcasm, even if it is flung around with a gentle hand. Sometimes I notice that I treat my husband and my friends much as I learned to treat my brother growing up (and my male dorm mates), with a consistent style of poke-in-the-ribs putdown humor. I don't think I'm ever mean-spirited or hostile, but I do seem to be irreverant (and loopy) almost all of the time. (Wait -- I guess I am mean about politicians that I don't like. Not as fierce as Molly Ivins, but about as much as Jon Stewart, my hero, and aparently my role model.) (Wait! I don't make sex jokes about my kid (ick) like he does.) For the record, most of my jokes are about me, with me being the butt of the humor. The rest of my snarky remarks appear to be well received. No one, no one in my family anyway, is bursting into tears or shunning me or (apparently) smoldering with resentment. (If someone else made you feel that way, please don't imagine that I look and act just like them. Humor should never be used for evil. Really, I took a pledge. <g>)

Is anyone earnest on TV any more? Sweet? I've been rereading Anne of Green Gables (to myself) and she was VERY sweet, abut that was a hundred years ago! I've been reading A Series of Unfortunate Events to my son -- and a MORE sour and bitter book for children would be hard to imagine.

Culturally, we don't have many role models for sweetness. I guess sweetness doesn't "get the ratings" needed to stay on the TV airwaves. We live in a pretty cynical, irreverant era. Certainly sweetness doesn't live long on the school playground. The other kids sense weakness and attack it. When we are adults people around us can be quick to tell us if they think we are too sweet, too kind and too accomodating with our children, especially if our kids are getting sweet things that they never, ever had.

Betsy

PS I suppose Spongebob himself is pretty sweet for a contemporary cartoon character. But he doesn't live in a sweet world. He's surrounded by crabby people -- no pun intended.)

Pam Sorooshian

On Jun 24, 2005, at 11:45 PM, Brandie wrote:

> How involved a prent must be to successfully unschool is big on my
> mind right now as someone on a local homeschooling list seems to think
> that unschooling means that we as parents don't do anything.

I think we have to constantly remember to return to explaining what
unschooling IS and what unschooling parents DO - in detail with simple
and clear examples. That's the best way to give people some vicarious
experience of it and, otherwise, it is so outside their actual
experience that more general explanations don't get through.

The other effective approach is to relate it to their own actual
experience (think of something you've learned outside of school), but
that still doesn't seem to get across the role of the unschooling
parent.

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/05 9:54:44 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:


> And Sandra has a musical voice which also sweetens everything she says, but
> it completely washes out in online text, unless you imagine it back in. 
>

Aw, shucks. Thanks.

I've had several people who thought I was mean online come up to me after
they heard me speak and say something in the range of "OH! Now I get it," or "I
was reading your words all wrong," or "From now on..." They were
apologies of sorts.

I really do write the way I speak, and for people who know me or have heard
me speak it makes more sense. For those who haven't and who read it as nasty,
all I can guess is that they've put THEIR voice and intent and inflections on
it. Or something, I don't know.

Holly got a letter from her uncle last week, Keith's oldest brother. He
doesn't write as he speaks at all, whatsoever. He doesn't write as ANY human
speaks, but he writes as his mom writes letters. It's like a whole different
language. One of my best friends years ago was an English major, as was I (but
he ended up being rich from his hobby, which was computers in the 70's...)
and he wrote well, but it was always very stilted. He had a whole different
vocabulary and "voice" when he wrote. So it was pretty good reading but
didn't "sound like him."

I don't know what it is about Keith's mom and brother. It's a combination
of stilted language and platitude that grates on me. It's polite on the
surface, but the irritation is in "WHY is this being written, and why not just use
regular, living English?!" Still, I'm glad to get the letters, and the
letter to Holly was a full page typed, and she'll read it a few more times as she
gets older, and that will be cool I'm sure. Sample, though (and it's all
about her trip to Europe):

"Your experiences are really quite unique and I am sure that you will
treasure the memories of 2005 forever. It has been several years since my last trip
to Europe (Fall 1984-Italy), but the experience not only of that trip but of
the other previous trips or vacation to the continent will last a lifetime.
I was not as fortunate as you as to have a friend to be my tour guide and I am
sure that you have been able to see and do things that are most unique."

He was an officer in the Navy and so most of his trips were duty-related, I
think. The sentiments are nice, but the writing seems unnatural to me.

The other extreme, though, I guess, it the language of instant messages and
text messaging. Maybe someone has a teen who could translate the paragraph
above down to its barest form. I guess it would start "coo" and be about over
by then. <g>

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Jun 25, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:

> Is anyone earnest on TV any more? Sweet?

The Gilmore Girls - Rory is earnest and sweet.

-pam

[email protected]

As much as I prefer philosophical "why?" discussions to "how" (which I think
is misleading and causes people to have to come back and ask "now what?"), I
have planted some of this thread on a page called "how"

http://sandradodd.com/how

And there are several other new pages and they're linked hotly (I don't know
if my links are working for everyone or even for anyone) here:
http://sandradodd.com/announcements

Half a dozen new things at SandraDodd.com
That's one of 'em.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Elizabeth Hill

**

I think we have to constantly remember to return to explaining what
unschooling IS and what unschooling parents DO - in detail with simple
and clear examples. **

I agree.

It's not completely easy to do. If an imperfect example is offered, then it's easy to end up with the conversation focusing on the imperfections of the example (to keep it from leading people astray). The parts that are generally agreed on and accepted aren't controversial and don't always get repeated and underlined.

Betsy

Pam Sorooshian

On Jun 25, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:

> It's not completely easy to do. If an imperfect example is offered,
> then it's easy to end up with the conversation focusing on the
> imperfections of the example (to keep it from leading people astray).
> The parts that are generally agreed on and accepted aren't
> controversial and don't always get repeated and underlined.

Right - people start looking at examples as if they are the totality of
unschooling. And others try to copy them. Others think the examples
seem too "puny" to really substitute for a "real education" and
conclude we're neglecting our kids' education.

Not many people have the language facility that Sandra has - so if they
all thought that unschooling depended on being able to make on-the-spot
interesting chit-chat about words, like she does, they might just give
up.

Still - I know that it was hearing the little tidbits like these that
slowly built up into a more intuitive sense of what unschooling could
be like - and although MY answer to Holly would probably have been a
mumbled, "Yeah, uh-huh," the POINT gradually got through to me that my
role in unschooling was to enhance my kids' lives in ways natural to
them and to me.

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/2005 10:54:44 AM Central Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

I've been reading A Series of Unfortunate Events to my son -- and a MORE
sour and bitter book for children would be hard to imagine.




~~~

It's funny, though. Melancholy to the point of humor. We really couldn't
live without Lemony Snicket. There are so many phrases from those books that
we use on a regular basis.

My son really IS an "ambidextrous freak".

They are so much better when read by Tim Curry! Lots of voices to do in
your spare time.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela S.

> They are so much better when read by Tim Curry! Lots of voices to do in
> your spare time.
>
> Karen

We love those books here too. I esp. love Tim Curry's version of Mr. Poe's
cough. I crack up every time and he coughs a lot.

Angela
game-enthusiast@...