Heidi Crane

>Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:58:38 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
>Subject: Re: otter pop advice
>
>
>In a message dated 6/19/2005 9:38:51 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
>bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
>
>So, instead of saying to my daughter "all that sugar
>made you sleepless" I should say "It might have been the red dye or the
>neon
>blue coloring"?
>
>
>How about give her access to a light, some books, a DVD player, and not
>worry about whether she's asleep or awake? She has to figure it out one
>her
>own, in her own way. Having a running commentary about why she SHOULD be
>sleepier or SHOULD be asleep doesn't help her feel her own feelings. You
>can't
>feel her feelings, you can only guess.

Well, at night, she takes a DVD player with her and listens to books, or
leafs through picture books, sometimes draws pictures from Harry Potter or
Henry Bone. Now and then she gets back up and turns on the TV until she
falls asleep on the couch.

Bedtime hasn't been an issue since I "discovered" unschooling. On two
specific occasions, me sound asleep, her sleeplessness has gotten me up or
at least waked me. Once, she came to me at 4:00 complaining that she hadn't
been able to fall asleep all night, and wanting to get in bed with me. And
the other time, her stomach was really upset, with heartburn and nausea, and
I got up to help her calm down.



>-=-The main point would be pretty much the same, to try and get
>her to think about how she feels after eating a whole lot of something.
>-=-
>
>How can she think about how she feels with you talking so much? <bwg>

What? are you saying I talk too much? Why would you think that? I'm sure
I've never manifested any kind of verbosity on THIS board. ;) LOL But you're
right. I needed to stop, and ask KATIE what made her feel so sleepless that
night.


>-=- So, it was more
>than/other than sugar those nights, but it was still SOMETHING. It was too
>much of something,-=-
>
>Too much of mom-anger?
>Who wouldn't feel uncomfortable having just been made to feel really
>guilty?
> The otter pops probably turned to ash in her stomach. (Not literally,
>biblically.)

Let's see here. I'm talking about three different "Otter Pop/Homemade
popsicle" binges. Two of them happened in the evening, and on both of those
nights, whether from sugar or artificial this and that, she was unable to
sleep in one case, and had an anxiety attack in another. The one where I
told her I was angry and thought she was inconsiderate, happened in the
afternoon and didn't affect her sleep. The afternoon binge was the last one.


do you think there's a difference between my saying "don't eat so many otter
pops! too much sugar/dye/flavors. You'll make yourself sick" and my saying
"It was inconsiderate of you to eat all those otter pops when other people
in the family enjoy them, too." ? I'm honesty asking.

If a child's actions have a negative effect on the people/place around her,
can it legitimately be pointed out to the child?

blessings HeidiC
>
>Sandra

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<do you think there's a difference between my saying "don't eat so many
otter
pops! too much sugar/dye/flavors. You'll make yourself sick" and my saying
"It was inconsiderate of you to eat all those otter pops when other people
in the family enjoy them, too." ? I'm honesty asking.>>>>

Well I think there is a big difference.

The first one is offering both a command, and some ideas that may or may not
be facts, but that could lead to a desire for further experimentation on the
part of the popsicle consumer - who would then be put in the position of
being considered disobedient or feeling rebellious. Also the first idea is
making another person the authority or arbiter of what feels good and well
to the first person. One of my goals with Jayn, and myself too, is that we
are able to make judgments about our own internal feelings of wellness
without the possibility of a reverse placebo effect.

The second is also problematic for me because it is making a judgment of
another person, instead of making an observation and stating your own
feelings. I think it is a shame to have a child start thinking of themselves
as an inconsiderate person, and I would fear that it would become
self-fulfilling if it the child heard it often enough.

Also you are speaking for everyone else in the family who may prefer to
speak for themselves. It seems a little similar to the "Royal We" that was
featuring in another recent thread - Mom saying "we" when she means herself.

However expressing simply and clearly your own disappointment that the
flavors you liked were gone, as you did explain in another email on this
thread, sounds like the best course. I remember that email being light and
humorous sounding in comparison to the level of anger that *seems* to be
coming through in your description of your attitude towards the miscreant.

By giving that information you are giving your child the opportunity next
time to possibly think "this color are Mom's favorite, I'll leave them for
her" and feel good about herself. Eventually she will make the connection
between being considerate with otter pops to being considerate with other
areas also, as she continues to see this being modeled in your family.

Robyn L. Coburn




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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/21/2005 4:52:56 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

On two
specific occasions, me sound asleep, her sleeplessness has gotten me up or
at least waked me. Once, she came to me at 4:00 complaining that she hadn't
been able to fall asleep all night, and wanting to get in bed with me. And
the other time, her stomach was really upset, with heartburn and nausea, and
I got up to help her calm down.



Sleeplessness didn't wake you up.
The first time, maybe she could've just gotten in bed quietly.
The second time could've happened no matter how many bedtime rules you had.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/21/2005 4:52:56 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

What? are you saying I talk too much? Why would you think that? I'm sure
I've never manifested any kind of verbosity on THIS board. ;) LOL But you're

right. I needed to stop, and ask KATIE what made her feel so sleepless that
night.



Why do you think you need to ask her?
Why do you think "I needed to stop" is to be followed by "...ask"?

When you're awake at night, are you always sure why? Sometimes I have no
idea. And she's a little girl. Asking her might give her the impression that
she's supposed to know, that it's normal for people to know why they're
awake. I think they're more likely to have no idea than to know for sure. She
might think there are right answers and wrong answers. I don't think you
should talk to her about what you think or she thinks made her feel sleepless on
any night, unless it's just conversational like "Do you feel okay?" or "Do
you need to talk?"

Sometimes people are sleepless and you don't need to find a cause or reason.

-=-do you think there's a difference between my saying "don't eat so many
otter
pops! too much sugar/dye/flavors. You'll make yourself sick" and my saying
"It was inconsiderate of you to eat all those otter pops when other people
in the family enjoy them, too." ? I'm honesty asking.-=-

No, not really.
"You'll make yourself sick" is rarely true as people traditionally use it.
And it comes to mean, basically, "I HOPE YOU GET SICK," because if she eats
that many and she doesn't make herself sick, mom loses.

In the second instance it's a true thing you said, but also more of a big
deal than any box of otter pops could be worth, unless you had planned an otter
pop party and you live twenty miles from town. Maybe you could've said "I
wished there had been a red one (or whatever color you said you like) when we
got home, and I was disappointed." That puts the emotional statement on you,
not on her. You're telling her how you were (disappointed) instead of
telling her how she was (inconsiderate).

-=-If a child's actions have a negative effect on the people/place around
her,
can it legitimately be pointed out to the child?-=-

Sure.
By "legitimately" you mean something, but it's not a clear way to ask it.
You could legitimately (depending on how you're bending the meaning) spank
her, forbid otter pops forever, give away her pets and sell her bike.
You could legitimately hug and kiss her and take the really mature stance
which is not to complain about not having an otter pop because you're an adult
and should model how to act in cases of minor disappointment.

It's your relationship with her that's at stake. What others think is
legitimate isn't as important as what you think is more important: her feelings or
an otter pop.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bunsofaluminum

> In the second instance it's a true thing you said, but also more of
a big
> deal than any box of otter pops could be worth, unless you had
planned an otter
> pop party and you live twenty miles from town. Maybe you could've
said "I
> wished there had been a red one (or whatever color you said you
like) when we
> got home, and I was disappointed." That puts the emotional
statement on you,
> not on her. You're telling her how you were (disappointed) instead
of
> telling her how she was (inconsiderate).

Now THIS is right on. I know in this case, I should have done what I
almost always do, and taken a deep breath, before saying anything.
I'm planning on talking to her about it, and I'll say just that "I
wanted a green one, and I was disappointed, and I let the anger come
out all over you."


> -=-If a child's actions have a negative effect on the people/place
around
> her,
> can it legitimately be pointed out to the child?-=-
>
> Sure.
> By "legitimately" you mean something, but it's not a clear way to
ask it. .......
> Sandra

What I mean is, sometimes kids do childish things that affect other
people negatively. They aren't doing it because they're jerks, but
because they don't know any better. Isn't it part of my job to help
my kids "know better"? To get it out of the otter pop example, take
littering. A little kid might toss a wrapper on the ground, and
shouldn't I, as his mom, say "This goes in the garbage can" and if
asked "why?"..."It's inconsiderate towards other people to throw
litter on the ground"

Yeah, word it gently, but still, it is pointing out something that
the kid has done that isn't wonderful. It is correcting the child.

right?

blessings HeidiC

Elizabeth Hill

**

When you're awake at night, are you always sure why? Sometimes I have no
idea. And she's a little girl. Asking her might give her the impression that
she's supposed to know, that it's normal for people to know why they're
awake. I think they're more likely to have no idea than to know for sure. **

A coroborating example:
My son had two nights where he was in bed trying to sleep and couldn't. (Yes, he came in to see me, eventually. One night, I think it was at 4.) This happened during the hottest days we've had recently, which could have been a factor. On the morning of the third day he reported having a sore gum, and further investigation revealed a molar getting lose. In hindsight, he may have had some low grade tooth soreness when he had trouble sleeping, without being really aware of it. Kids can also have minor (or major) pain from growing limbs, if they are growing quickly Or in our case it could have been the heat. Or the annoying sounds of the crickets outside the window (screechily audible even when the window is shut.)

Betsy

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], "bunsofaluminum"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
==A little kid might toss a wrapper on the ground, and
> shouldn't I, as his mom, say "This goes in the garbage can" and if
> asked "why?"..."It's inconsiderate towards other people to throw
> litter on the ground"
>
> Yeah, word it gently, but still, it is pointing out something that
> the kid has done that isn't wonderful. It is correcting the child.
>
> right?==

I'm not as comfortable with the words "correcting the child." I'm
more comfortable with the words "giving the child useful information."
It may just be a matter of semantics, but that slight shift in focus
has helped my relationship with my children and our unschooling lives
greatly. "Correction" seems less respectful.

I also like using "I" messages when I'm giving a child emotional
information (like the information you might be going for with the
phrase, "it's inconsiderate"), so the information is as honest and
personal and relational as it can be -- so it has real meaning to the
child.

"I don't like seeing litter on the ground. I think it makes the
street/park/playground look messy and sad. If litter is sticky,
sometimes it gets stuck on my shoe -- very annoying and sometimes
expensive, if I have to buy new shoes, but that's only happened once.
There are some kinds of litter that animals try to eat and then hurt
themselves on, and I worry about that."

Lots of information, some of it about my emotions, some of it factual.
All of it assumes that the child does not need correction as much as
good information and some help with awareness. I might not give all
this information at once, or even at a time when the child has littered.

I guess my problem with the statement that "It's inconsiderate to do
that" is that people, including adults, do litter, for all sorts of
reasons (missed the trash can, dropped something, couldn't find a
place to put it, were rebelling from years of being told to not
litter) and I think it's confusing for children if we pretend that we
know a person's intention or motivation or mindset behind doing so.

"Inconsiderate towards other people" does make a statement about the
person doing the act, though you may mean it to be about the effect on
others, to mean that "other people find it inconvenient or unpleasant."

Littering might not be a result of being "inconsiderate" at times.
What if I drop my Wendy's bag so that I can catch a little child who
is falling, for instance, or give CPR to a person in need? I might
forget to pick it up afterwards, what with all the excitement. Or
what if I miss the trash can because I'm distracted by a conversation
with a friend who needs a shoulder to cry on? Or what if I set my
lunch bag aside so that I can push my child on the swing, but it gets
knocked off the bench and the wind blows it away? Or what if somebody
is injured and needs to be carried, and there's no trash can nearby
for my empty soda cup?

In the first three scenarios, it's likely that I would pick up the
trash once I discovered the mistake, but my point is that in all those
examples I was being *very* considerate of other people -- that was
the main intention in my own mind, and yet I littered, which you have
said is "inconsiderate" of me. My litter may become unpleasant for
other people, but my intention certainly was not to be inconsiderate.

That's what I would have found confusing as a child, as I watched
adults litter for various reasons. That would have added to my
feeling that sometimes even when I was trying to do the right thing, I
was doing the wrong thing. It just doesn't help to paint a happy
picture of the world.

So it might be worth thinking about your words a little more, and
making sure you're giving good information instead of jumping to
conclusions about others' motivations. Your children might find that
to be more helpful.

Peace,
Amy

Pam Sorooshian

On Jun 21, 2005, at 5:20 PM, bunsofaluminum wrote:

> Yeah, word it gently, but still, it is pointing out something that
> the kid has done that isn't wonderful. It is correcting the child.

I try (have certainly not succeeded at all times) to NOT comment
negatively on something that is already a done deal.

So - if my kid threw trash out the car window, for example, I might
just keep my mouth shut about it, right then, so as not to embarrass
her or make her feel bad.
BUT - I'd remember that it happened and some other time I might say, "I
got trash bags for the car so that from now on we can put trash in
there. Here, can you put this in the trash bag for me?" No reason to
mention the trash that went out the window. Done deal that can't be
corrected.

I try to make a specific and realistic request, rather than an
after-the-fact complaint. And I try to do it in a way that doesn't even
appear related to someone doing something that I disapproved of,
previously.
I wish I'd had this idea in my head years ago - I think it is far more
sensible and kinder and more conducive to happy harmonious relations.

Some things that have become very clear to me now that my kids are
older teenagers/young adults would have been very useful to understand
years ago - but somehow didn't seem as obvious back then.


-pam

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 21, 2005, at 6:51 PM, Heidi Crane wrote:

> do you think there's a difference between my saying "don't eat so many
> otter
> pops! too much sugar/dye/flavors. You'll make yourself sick" and my
> saying
> "It was inconsiderate of you to eat all those otter pops when other
> people
> in the family enjoy them, too." ? I'm honesty asking.
>

Yes. The first part is a solution you're imposing on a problem that
you've identified and decided she needs to fix. The second part is
stated as a fact and it may not be true. It's better -- in terms of
learning how to solve problems in general -- to help her notice
patterns.

The second is you pointing out something that's a problem for other
people. The solution is then open ended and you two can try out various
solutions.

Better to focus on the big picture of helping her problem solve in
general rather than put out this particular fire.

Joyce

deedeanne

--- In [email protected], "arcarpenter2003"
<arcarpenter@g...> wrote:
--== I guess my problem with the statement that "It's inconsiderate
to do that" is that people, including adults, do litter, for all
sorts of reasons (missed the trash can, dropped something, couldn't
find a place to put it, were rebelling from years of being told to
not litter) and I think it's confusing for children if we pretend
that we know a person's intention or motivation or mindset behind
doing so.

"Inconsiderate towards other people" does make a statement about the
person doing the act, though you may mean it to be about the effect
on others, to mean that "other people find it inconvenient or
unpleasant."

Littering might not be a result of being "inconsiderate" at times.
What if I drop my Wendy's bag so that I can catch a little child who
is falling, for instance, or give CPR to a person in need? I might
> forget to pick it up afterwards, what with all the excitement.....

........ but my point is that in all those examples I was being
*very* considerate of other people -- that was the main intention in
my own mind, and yet I littered, which you have said
is "inconsiderate" of me. My litter may become unpleasant for
> other people, but my intention certainly was not to be
inconsiderate.
>
> That's what I would have found confusing as a child, as I watched
> adults litter for various reasons. That would have added to my
> feeling that sometimes even when I was trying to do the right
thing, I was doing the wrong thing. It just doesn't help to paint a
happy picture of the world.
>
> So it might be worth thinking about your words a little more, and
> making sure you're giving good information instead of jumping to
> conclusions about others' motivations. Your children might find
that to be more helpful.
>
> Peace,
> Amy


Thanks for this post Amy. I found it VERY helpful. The way you
explained the different approaches and the examples gave me much to
consider. I will be printing this out, for sure.

Deanne

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/21/2005 11:25:42 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
arcarpenter@... writes:

"Correction" seems less respectful.



It definitely indicates that the pre-corrected behavior was wrong.

-=-A little kid might toss a wrapper on the ground, and
> shouldn't I, as his mom, say "This goes in the garbage can" and if
> asked "why?"..."It's inconsiderate towards other people to throw
> litter on the ground"
-=-

Too much talking.
Either pick the wrapper up and put it in the trash and say why you always do
that, or ask the kid to pick it up and either put it in the trash or hand it
to you (if he's too little to reach the trash can).

I've never had a child of mine toss a wrapper on the ground because from the
time they were carried babies or stroller babies, they saw me carefully
gather up all wrappers and throw them away, and pick up other people's wrappers
and throw them away. There wasn't a lot to talk about.

Be casual and do what's right, and they'll think that's just how people are
and should be.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/22/2005 12:26:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

So - if my kid threw trash out the car window, for example, I might
just keep my mouth shut about it, right then, so as not to embarrass
her or make her feel bad.



I grew up in the days and places (and with perhaps a class of people) where
trash was routinely thrown out of car windows, including lit cigarettes and
glass bottles. I hated it, even when I was really little.

The last time I was in a car and someone threw out a glass bottle it was the
mid 70's and I threw a little fit.

Probably because of my own history, if someone (anyone) threw something out
of my car window I would say "Don't ever do that again."
If one of my kids did it (which they never have, not counting maybe
sunflower seed hulls or an apple core or a piece of gum, and even those I encourage
use of the trash bag), I would say "Don't ever do that in my car. When you
grow up and buy your own car if you still want to do that, go ahead. The fine
is $300, so you wait until you're on your own."

-=-I wish I'd had this idea in my head years ago - I think it is far more
sensible and kinder and more conducive to happy harmonious relations.-=-

You're probably right, but I don't want harmonious relations with litterers
or liars or child abusers. (Just to name the subject at hand and a couple of
recent examples of people not worth making nice with.) And the ticket for
littering wouldn't be delivered to the kid, but to the driver.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/22/2005 9:13:17 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
deedeanne@... writes:

-=-"Inconsiderate towards other people" does make a statement about the
person doing the act, though you may mean it to be about the effect
on others, to mean that "other people find it inconvenient or
unpleasant."-=-


If my kids (teens, boys) make a lot of noise after 10:00 at night when their
dad and the neighbors have to be at work early in the morning, that is
inconsiderate. We don't need each individual to come and say "When I heard your
stereo at midnight, it made me feel..." Depending on the volume, it might
also be illegal.

If those same boys and their friends park their cars in such ways that fewer
cars can park or neighbors can't get in or out, that's inconsiderate. It
doesn't need a neighbor to come and say "This car is half in my regular parking
spot."

But those things are constants. More hours aren't added after 10:00. The
cul-de-sac doesn't stretch to allow more cars.

The consumption of otter pops doesn't seem to me to be in that category.

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Jun 22, 2005, at 9:34 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> -=-I wish I'd had this idea in my head years ago - I think it is far
> more
> sensible and kinder and more conducive to happy harmonious
> relations.-=-
>
> You're probably right, but I don't want harmonious relations with
> litterers
> or liars or child abusers. (Just to name the subject at hand and a
> couple of
> recent examples of people not worth making nice with.) And the ticket
> for
> littering wouldn't be delivered to the kid, but to the driver.

I'm talking about with my OWN children. Not litterers or liars or child
abusers. My own YOUNG child who did something thoughtless. If any of my
kids threw trash out the window - to be honest, I'd be so shocked that
what would come out of my mouth would be something like, "Huh?" But I
was trying to come up with something a 5 or 6 year old might do,
thoughtlessly, which they couldn't undo if they were called on it. Like
eating all the otter pops.

So - I was talking about how to respond to something they cannot do
anything about right at that moment. I meant that we're driving at 70
mph down the freeway. (My kids wouldn't do this either - but JUST this
morning somebody in a car in front of us threw a handful of fast food
trash out their window. Roxana and I were shocked into silence for a
minute.)

If we walking down the street and a kid drops trash on the ground, I'd
say, "Here - you can stick that in this bag," or "Grab that back up and
stick it in my pocket until we find a trash can."

Again - specific request where they can make it right, immediately,
rather than embarrassing and shaming them in hopes that they won't do
it again in the future.

The otter pop situation seems like the piece of trash out the window on
the freeway. No matter how bad the little girl felt, she couldn't make
it right. The thoughts in her head were probably things like, "What do
you want me to do about it? Throw up so you can have your precious
green otter pop?"

When we're criticized after the fact and we can't make it right, there
is no recourse but to feel shame - and usually people feeling shame are
NOT thinking about how to avoid it next time, but are feeling resentful
and angry at the person who shamed them. And a little girl eating all
the otter pops isn't WORTH shaming her. MUCH easier to just wait - next
time you're at the grocery store buy a box and have her help put them
in the freezer and say, "Last time I didn't get any green ones, so be
SURE to save a couple of them for me this time, okay?" She's little -
that's probably all that needs saying.

But - if you see this as something you want to really focus in on - if
it is a really big deal and isn't just the otter pops one time - then
enlist her help on how to make sure everybody feels treated fairly.
"How can we make sure some get saved for me? How about for your
brothers and sisters?" Again - she's little - this should be fun and
casual and I'm talking about her feeling like she's doing something
nice with you, not feeling like she's being punished or embarrassed.


-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/22/2005 2:24:52 PM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

(My kids wouldn't do this either - but JUST this
morning somebody in a car in front of us threw a handful of fast food
trash out their window. Roxana and I were shocked into silence for a
minute.)



~~~

I always honk my horn and point. It make me pissy that they think they're
getting away with something. If I honk, at least they know SOMEONE saw them.

Why in the WORLD would my son throw something out the window of a moving car
after living with me doing that for all these years? ;)

I'm not the best model of thinking of others--I confess to eating the last
cookie out of the package last night, without asking if he wanted it. (Dh is
out of town.) But I also knew he had had many of the cookies already, and he
probably had his fill of them, and if he had wanted it after I had eaten it,
I would promise to get more and if it really, really meant a lot to him I
would have gotten off the couch and gone to get more. He's considerate of me,
and mature, and we know what each other's likes and dislikes are, and he
wouldn't have asked me to go the store at 9:30. And I wouldn't have eaten the
last cookie if I had an inkling it meant that much to him. When we model
consideration of our children, they model it back.

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kornelia Mitchell

At 04:02 PM 6/22/05 -0400, Tuckervill2@... wrote:
>
>In a message dated 6/22/2005 2:24:52 PM Central Standard Time,
>pamsoroosh@... writes:
>
>(My kids wouldn't do this either - but JUST this
>morning somebody in a car in front of us threw a handful of fast food
>trash out their window. Roxana and I were shocked into silence for a
>minute.)
>
>
>~~~
>
>I always honk my horn and point. It make me pissy that they think they're
>getting away with something. If I honk, at least they know SOMEONE saw them.
>
>~~~ snip ~~~
>
>Karen
>
I've been lurking for quite a while (since the unschooling.com discussion
boards were down last fall) and unschooling for about a year and a half.
We're busy baking a cake for dd's (Aquilina) 6th birthday tomorrow, so I'll
work on a more formal intro when we're done celebrating.

We live on a small island, and one of the great things about this is that,
for all practical purposes, there's only one way off. We have a high
percentage of "crunchy" types, quite a few whose livelihood is based on
natural resources (ocean and forest), and many tourists in the summer.

A few years ago, one of our neighbours saw someone throwing a bunch of
trash out the window of their car. He stopped, picked up the trash, and
continued on his way to the ferry. Sure enough, the offending person was
also on the ferry :-). He motioned the driver to roll down the window and,
smiling, dumped the trash on his lap. I'm not sure of his exact words, but
I believe it was something simple like "I think this was yours".

Kornelia



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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/22/2005 4:43:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
eaglemom@... writes:

I'm not sure of his exact words, but
I believe it was something simple like "I think this was yours".



-=- I'm not sure of his exact words, but
I believe it was something simple like "I think this was yours".
=-

Good one.

I've pulled over and honked and yelled at strange kids "Pick that up" or
"Don't do that" if he had just dropped a paper cup. Not little kids, cocky 12
year old boys.

In the 50's in Texas and some of New Mexico, roadsides were shiny with
broken glass and fences were partly made of paper and bags and trash. Every
little ravine seemed to have two major appliances, rusting steel bedsprings and
part of a car. Those old iporcelain-coated wringer washing machines that are
so rarely seen? All dumped off of roads, it seems. I must've seen 300 of
them myself before I was 20.

Now that's not true, and kids my kids' ages are usually appalled at
littering.

One of the best things I've seen, the most successful and helpful social
campaigns, was Lady Byrd Johnson's "Keep America Beautiful" project. I was at
a rally on the first Earth Day and joined a team to clean up a beautiful
little streambed in my hometown that next weekend. We turned it from a dump to
its beautiful original self in one day (like cockroaches on a dead lizard <g>).

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]


Now that's not true, and kids my kids' ages are usually appalled at
littering.

-=-=-=-=-

Lou Holtz, famous college football coach was hired by the University of
South Carolina a few years back.

Upon driving through our fair state the first time, he commented that
South Carolinians must have the world's cleanest cars.

He caught hell in the press, but then he started doing tv ads for "Keep
SC Clean and Green" a few months later.

Cracked *me* up! <G>

~Kelly


Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Angela S.

> In the 50's in Texas and some of New Mexico, roadsides were shiny with
> broken glass and fences were partly made of paper and bags and trash.
Every
> little ravine seemed to have two major appliances, rusting steel
bedsprings and
> part of a car. Those old iporcelain-coated wringer washing machines that
are
> so rarely seen? All dumped off of roads, it seems

Here in Maine, it's rare to see very much trash on the roadsides. In the
spring after the snow melts, there is always some that has accumulated over
the winter but not much really. (There is a paper cup across the street from
my house in the ditch that I keep meaning to pick up.) When we visited
Florida last winter I was appalled at all the trash on the roadside in the
bedroom community of Deltona in a nice neighborhood. (my mil lives there)
I was out for a walk around the lake and as I walked by, someone in a car
going by several yards ahead of me threw a coke can out the window right in
my sight. I can't imagine littering (besides apple cores thrown into the
woods on the roadside) and I esp. can't imagine littering in front of a
pedestrian walking by. I was really shocked.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/22/2005 6:11:52 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:

Here in Maine, it's rare to see very much trash on the roadsides.


Here too, generally.

At the state fair there's trash on the ground. That's about the only time I
really see much. I see lots of people just pick up trash that's not theirs,
without grumbling.

I was impressed at Disneyland, which has the same general conditions as the
New Mexico State Fair (crowds with paper cups and papers, in lines they are
loath to get out of, hot and tired and not knowing where the nearest trashcan
might be, having guys whose job it is to pick trash up all the time. If a
kid dropped popcorn or a straw, a guy with a broom and dustpan was there
within about 30 seconds, smiling and dancing, or drumming on his trashcan.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bunsofaluminum

I wonder if the litter rate has gone down since the Adopt a Highway
program came into being. Do other states besides UT and ID have that?
Civic groups, or scout troops, or businesses, churches, even
families, will adopt a mile of road, and keep it clean. They get
their name on a sign on the road, and there isn't much litter along
Idaho or Utah highways.

I think the idea that "someone" not a government agency, but a
volunteer force, will be picking up, is more of a deterrent than the
idea of a fine for $299.00 (which signs I haven't seen in ID or UT
for a long time)

blessings, HeidiC


--- In [email protected], "Angela S." <game-
enthusiast@a...> wrote:
>
>
> > In the 50's in Texas and some of New Mexico, roadsides were
shiny with
> > broken glass and fences were partly made of paper and bags and
trash.


>
> Here in Maine, it's rare to see very much trash on the roadsides.
In the
> spring after the snow melts, there is always some that has
accumulated over
> the winter but not much really. (There is a paper cup across the
street from
> my house in the ditch that I keep meaning to pick up.)

Sue Patterson

--- In [email protected], "bunsofaluminum"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> Do other states besides UT and ID have that?

Texas has the Adopt-A-Highway program. Our 4H group adopted 2 miles
along a country highway. We clean it up at least 4 times/year.

~Sue

bunsofaluminum

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/22/2005 9:13:17 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> deedeanne@y... writes:
>
> -=-"Inconsiderate towards other people" does make a statement
about the
> person doing the act, though you may mean it to be about the
effect
> on others, to mean that "other people find it inconvenient or
> unpleasant."-=-

This is good. Like an *I* statement.


>Sandra said:
> If my kids (teens, boys) make a lot of noise after 10:00 at night
when their
> dad and the neighbors have to be at work early in the morning, that
is
> inconsiderate.

<snip>

> If those same boys and their friends park their cars in such ways
that fewer
> cars can park or neighbors can't get in or out, that's
inconsiderate.

<snip>
> But those things are constants. More hours aren't added after
10:00. The
> cul-de-sac doesn't stretch to allow more cars.
>
> The consumption of otter pops doesn't seem to me to be in that
category.
> Sandra

Okay, I can really see the difference, now. This has been a puzzler
for me, because I don't think it's wrong for moms to provide
guidance, and honestly wasn't clear how to go about it. When I told
my girl it was inconsiderate of her, I thought I was doing quite
well, not to have said "you are inconsiderate." I thought I was
labeling her action, not HER.

That is why I've been batting it back and forth so much, and
evidently looking like I've been arguing. I haven't meant to be
argumentative; I've just been trying to find out how my wording could
be better and what to say (or not say L) when things like it happen
again.

blessings, HeidiC


>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler Waynforth

Japan has the best/worst litter I've ever experienced. On the
outskirts of Kyoto where we lived for a year it seemed that all the
teenage boys must have gone to check out their porn and leave it
scattered all over the ground when they were through. David has some
pictures of the bamboo forest with porn blowing through it somewhere.
In Kyoto proper there was very rarely any litter as lots of people
were employed to clean it up, but outside of the city, well, who cares.

Schuyler



--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/22/2005 6:11:52 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> game-enthusiast@a... writes:
>
> Here in Maine, it's rare to see very much trash on the roadsides.
>
>
> Here too, generally.
>
> At the state fair there's trash on the ground. That's about the
only time I
> really see much. I see lots of people just pick up trash that's not
theirs,
> without grumbling.
>
> I was impressed at Disneyland, which has the same general conditions
as the
> New Mexico State Fair (crowds with paper cups and papers, in lines
they are
> loath to get out of, hot and tired and not knowing where the
nearest trashcan
> might be, having guys whose job it is to pick trash up all the
time. If a
> kid dropped popcorn or a straw, a guy with a broom and dustpan was
there
> within about 30 seconds, smiling and dancing, or drumming on his
trashcan.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/22/2005 11:52:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

I wonder if the litter rate has gone down since the Adopt a Highway
program came into being. Do other states besides UT and ID have that?
Civic groups, or scout troops, or businesses, churches, even
families, will adopt a mile of road, and keep it clean. They get
their name on a sign on the road, and there isn't much litter along
Idaho or Utah highways.





VA has the adopt a highway program, BUT the organization pays a FEE to get
there name on a sign that says they are sponsoring that bit of roadway by
keeping it clean.

In some areas here it's pretty dangerous, the bring out small children and
have them on back country roads on curves picking up trash, bended over,
partially hidden by tall weeds... on some roads it is much safer than others.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]