Spoiled kids
sheila
I was talking to someone about spoiling kids, and how I don't think you can spoil kids by saying yes as often as possible.
She asked me what about Nellie and Nancy Olson (from pbs Little House on the Prairie). Why did they act the way they did even though their mom was always buying them whatever they wanted?
Of course they are fictional tv characters, but there are kids who act like them to a certain degree. I said that there's more to it than just buying kids a lot of stuff. How much attention did Mr. and Mrs. Olson give Nancy and Nellie? How much time did they spend with them? She said that they probably didn't give them any less attention than the Ingles gave Laura and Mary, because they lived in a time when people had to work their butts off all the time, but Laura and Mary didn't act like spoiled brats. She said they didn't act like brats because they weren't spoiled--when they got candy or toys or clothes it was a rare treat and they were grateful, and they had to do chores.
Any thoughts on that?
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She asked me what about Nellie and Nancy Olson (from pbs Little House on the Prairie). Why did they act the way they did even though their mom was always buying them whatever they wanted?
Of course they are fictional tv characters, but there are kids who act like them to a certain degree. I said that there's more to it than just buying kids a lot of stuff. How much attention did Mr. and Mrs. Olson give Nancy and Nellie? How much time did they spend with them? She said that they probably didn't give them any less attention than the Ingles gave Laura and Mary, because they lived in a time when people had to work their butts off all the time, but Laura and Mary didn't act like spoiled brats. She said they didn't act like brats because they weren't spoiled--when they got candy or toys or clothes it was a rare treat and they were grateful, and they had to do chores.
Any thoughts on that?
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tracy
I think the term "spolied" means, ungrateful. Can priveleged
children be grateful, and underpriveledged children be ungrateful? I
think so. If a child gets what he wants and he has a good attitude,
he doesn't get called spoiled...but when he has a poor attitude he
does.
--- In [email protected], "sheila" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
though their mom was always buying them whatever they wanted?
than just buying kids a lot of stuff. How much attention did Mr.
and Mrs. Olson give Nancy and Nellie? How much time did they spend
with them? She said that they probably didn't give them any less
attention than the Ingles gave Laura and Mary, because they lived in
a time when people had to work their butts off all the time, but
Laura and Mary didn't act like spoiled brats. She said they didn't
act like brats because they weren't spoiled--when they got candy or
toys or clothes it was a rare treat and they were grateful, and they
had to do chores.
children be grateful, and underpriveledged children be ungrateful? I
think so. If a child gets what he wants and he has a good attitude,
he doesn't get called spoiled...but when he has a poor attitude he
does.
--- In [email protected], "sheila" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
> I was talking to someone about spoiling kids, and how I don'tthink you can spoil kids by saying yes as often as possible.
>House on the Prairie). Why did they act the way they did even
> She asked me what about Nellie and Nancy Olson (from pbs Little
though their mom was always buying them whatever they wanted?
>act like them to a certain degree. I said that there's more to it
> Of course they are fictional tv characters, but there are kids who
than just buying kids a lot of stuff. How much attention did Mr.
and Mrs. Olson give Nancy and Nellie? How much time did they spend
with them? She said that they probably didn't give them any less
attention than the Ingles gave Laura and Mary, because they lived in
a time when people had to work their butts off all the time, but
Laura and Mary didn't act like spoiled brats. She said they didn't
act like brats because they weren't spoiled--when they got candy or
toys or clothes it was a rare treat and they were grateful, and they
had to do chores.
>
> Any thoughts on that?
>
> Sheila
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler Waynforth
Nellie Olson has about a chapter long mention in the book "On the
Banks of Plum Creek"there's another mention of her somewhere else,
but it's been 10 years at least since I read the books. So, not only
does Nellie Olson only exist as the adult memory of a childhood event
of a girl who felt left out by the popular girl in Mankato (I think)
and who was writing for publishers in the 30's when morality was an
important part of children's stories, but the TV series Nellie Olson
is near complete fiction with Nancy Olson (who is complete fiction)
only being brought in to continue the conflict believed to be
necessary to keep the then 1980's television audience interested.
So, maybe you could suggest that she use real life examples when she
wants to talk about possible outcomes for your children?
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], "sheila" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
their mom was always buying them whatever they wanted?
than just buying kids a lot of stuff. How much attention did Mr. and
Mrs. Olson give Nancy and Nellie? How much time did they spend with
them? She said that they probably didn't give them any less attention
than the Ingles gave Laura and Mary, because they lived in a time when
people had to work their butts off all the time, but Laura and Mary
didn't act like spoiled brats. She said they didn't act like brats
because they weren't spoiled--when they got candy or toys or clothes
it was a rare treat and they were grateful, and they had to do chores.
Banks of Plum Creek"there's another mention of her somewhere else,
but it's been 10 years at least since I read the books. So, not only
does Nellie Olson only exist as the adult memory of a childhood event
of a girl who felt left out by the popular girl in Mankato (I think)
and who was writing for publishers in the 30's when morality was an
important part of children's stories, but the TV series Nellie Olson
is near complete fiction with Nancy Olson (who is complete fiction)
only being brought in to continue the conflict believed to be
necessary to keep the then 1980's television audience interested.
So, maybe you could suggest that she use real life examples when she
wants to talk about possible outcomes for your children?
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], "sheila" <sheran@p...>
wrote:
> I was talking to someone about spoiling kids, and how I don't thinkyou can spoil kids by saying yes as often as possible.
>House on the Prairie). Why did they act the way they did even though
> She asked me what about Nellie and Nancy Olson (from pbs Little
their mom was always buying them whatever they wanted?
>act like them to a certain degree. I said that there's more to it
> Of course they are fictional tv characters, but there are kids who
than just buying kids a lot of stuff. How much attention did Mr. and
Mrs. Olson give Nancy and Nellie? How much time did they spend with
them? She said that they probably didn't give them any less attention
than the Ingles gave Laura and Mary, because they lived in a time when
people had to work their butts off all the time, but Laura and Mary
didn't act like spoiled brats. She said they didn't act like brats
because they weren't spoiled--when they got candy or toys or clothes
it was a rare treat and they were grateful, and they had to do chores.
>
> Any thoughts on that?
>
> Sheila
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/2005 9:09:55 PM Central Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:
She asked me what about Nellie and Nancy Olson (from pbs Little House on the
Prairie). Why did they act the way they did even though their mom was
always buying them whatever they wanted?
~~~
Nellie Olson's mother was ALSO spoiled, and thought her s**t don't stink.
Caroline, on the other hand, was humble and kind and moral and rarely angry.
Family tradition.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
She asked me what about Nellie and Nancy Olson (from pbs Little House on the
Prairie). Why did they act the way they did even though their mom was
always buying them whatever they wanted?
~~~
Nellie Olson's mother was ALSO spoiled, and thought her s**t don't stink.
Caroline, on the other hand, was humble and kind and moral and rarely angry.
Family tradition.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi Crane
Consider the parents. Wasn't Mrs. Olson a bit of a snob, who considered the
family too good for that small town life? Always hankering for the better
things of life, which were only available to city dwellers? Complaining a
lot. I always hated that the wife was this uber-bitch, while the meek and
mellow husband was just trying to do his best to make life good for her.
ugh. Meanwhile, Ma and Pa Ingalls were contented with their hard-working
life on the homestead. The husband and wife were respectful of each other,
while Mrs.Olson treated Mr. Olson kinda crappy. In both cases, modeling for
their children.
Keep in mind, too: the TV series took Nellie Olson of the books (who was
older than Laura and a small rivalry was mentioned) and made her into this
hyper-superior bitch girl who hated Laura and did what she could to make her
life miserable through mockery or snide remarks, or what have you. The books
don't go into Nellie Olson's home life, where the TV series does. Etc.
As for what causes spoiled kids in real life...someone already mentioned
ingratitude. That's a biggie, to be sure. Gratitude is learned, and I would
say kids learn from whom they spend time with.
Being ignored would do it. How to make a whiny child: ignore her until she
whines. She'll learn pretty quick, that whining is what gets her mom's
attention. Or, better yet, ignore her until she does something bad, then
give her a whack or shout at her. That might not make for whining, though.
Just...trouble.
Hm, here's a thought: always say "no" to start with, and then cave when the
kids turn on the tears or the tantrums. Use what they want as a bribe to
shut them up.
my thoughts, anyway. for .02
Blessings, heidiC
family too good for that small town life? Always hankering for the better
things of life, which were only available to city dwellers? Complaining a
lot. I always hated that the wife was this uber-bitch, while the meek and
mellow husband was just trying to do his best to make life good for her.
ugh. Meanwhile, Ma and Pa Ingalls were contented with their hard-working
life on the homestead. The husband and wife were respectful of each other,
while Mrs.Olson treated Mr. Olson kinda crappy. In both cases, modeling for
their children.
Keep in mind, too: the TV series took Nellie Olson of the books (who was
older than Laura and a small rivalry was mentioned) and made her into this
hyper-superior bitch girl who hated Laura and did what she could to make her
life miserable through mockery or snide remarks, or what have you. The books
don't go into Nellie Olson's home life, where the TV series does. Etc.
As for what causes spoiled kids in real life...someone already mentioned
ingratitude. That's a biggie, to be sure. Gratitude is learned, and I would
say kids learn from whom they spend time with.
Being ignored would do it. How to make a whiny child: ignore her until she
whines. She'll learn pretty quick, that whining is what gets her mom's
attention. Or, better yet, ignore her until she does something bad, then
give her a whack or shout at her. That might not make for whining, though.
Just...trouble.
Hm, here's a thought: always say "no" to start with, and then cave when the
kids turn on the tears or the tantrums. Use what they want as a bribe to
shut them up.
my thoughts, anyway. for .02
Blessings, heidiC
>Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:12:30 -0400
> From: "sheila" <sheran@...>
>Subject: >
>I was talking to someone about spoiling kids, and how I don't think you can
>spoil kids by saying yes as often as possible.
>
>She asked me what about Nellie and Nancy Olson (from pbs Little House on
>the Prairie). Why did they act the way they did even though their mom was
>always buying them whatever they wanted?
>
>Of course they are fictional tv characters, but there are kids who act like
>them to a certain degree. I said that there's more to it than just buying
>kids a lot of stuff. How much attention did Mr. and Mrs. Olson give Nancy
>and Nellie? How much time did they spend with them? She said that they
>probably didn't give them any less attention than the Ingles gave Laura and
>Mary, because they lived in a time when people had to work their butts off
>all the time, but Laura and Mary didn't act like spoiled brats. She said
>they didn't act like brats because they weren't spoiled--when they got
>candy or toys or clothes it was a rare treat and they were grateful, and
>they had to do chores.
>
>Any thoughts on that?
>
>Sheila
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/2005 8:09:56 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
sheran@... writes:
She asked me what about Nellie and Nancy Olson (from pbs Little House on the
Prairie). Why did they act the way they did even though their mom was
always buying them whatever they wanted?
That's like asking why the kids in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
act the way they do. Because they are caricatures. They are samples created
to "prove" a point that hasn't been really tested. They (and Nellie Olsen)
exist to control parents, and to keep kids down as an inferior type of
not-yet-really-human.
Nellie's mom was always telling her she was beautiful and better and
smarter, too.
That's one of my (several) objections to the idea of "giftedness" in
children. Parents cooing over kids and telling them they're superior to other
people isn't even a side-road to happiness.
-=- She said they didn't act like brats because they weren't spoiled--when
they got candy or toys or clothes it was a rare treat and they were grateful,
and they had to do chores.
Any thoughts on that? -=-
Only that it's the same old thing that's being said for years and years and
it doesn't make sense in practice. It's just a way to make kids "hungry"
enough that you can bribe them with slight privileges and cheap gifts in order
to control them. When a kid knows parents could tet them more toys or
clothes and the parents just don't, that does NOT make children grateful. When
they have to do chores because the parents are using them as unpaid (or even
kid-wage) labor, that doesn't make them grateful.
I have watched my whole life to see if the "spoiled" stuff worked. My mom
used to say my best friend was "spoiled," but she wasn't. It was just a
gratuitous insult because her parents had money and a really nice house. My mom
didn't want me to want to have Martha's life, so she said bad things about
Martha. Martha was nice and generous and never "acted rich" or acted smart
about her privileges.
I've heard other families say that about my kids, that they were "spoiled"
because they didn't have to take constant orders from their parents, or sit
next to their parents in public places. They wanted their kids to be satisfied
with being told exactly what to do and where and how to sit, instead of
wanting to run around and look at things in the building as Kirby and Marty were
doing, so they said "you don't want to be spoiled like they are; they'll grow
up unhappy; they'll never get a job."
When my kids were little we had a next-door neighbor who used to come over
and play every day or so. We had a Xerox box full of fast-food toys. He saw
that and his eyes got big and he asked if they could play with them. He was
clearly excited, but then his eyes got veiled and he came back to himself
(the self his mom was creating) and said "I don't save my toys like this,
because I'm not spoiled" or something. He was no longer as happy to see them,
because it proved my kids were spoiled (in the universe being created of guilt
and parental messages in his head).
The daughter of our most vocal critic came to Marty's pirate birthday party
when he was four or five. We had a buried treasure with a map, and she being
one of the oldest (nine, probably) was the chief navigator and figured out
how to read the map, and they dug up the treasure, which was an ammo box with
bags of candy and gold coins and a few hundred pennies. (I saw that ammo box
the other day, with the screen-printed pirate flag glued to it--I had
screenprinted a bunch of napkins and decorations, and made little flags, and one
was glued flat on that box; still is.) She was a "sit here and be quiet" kind
of kid, but her mom wasn't at the party. She SQUEALED when they opened the
box, and said FULL VOICE for everyone at the party to hear, "I wish my mom
would do something like this for me!" I hadn't seen her that excited since she
was at an amusement park when she was six or so.
By the time her mom showed up, though, she was back to her malaise, sighing,
being cynical, and when her mom asked her how the party was, she heaved a
dramatic sigh, looked past her mom (no eye contact), and said, "It was
o-kay..." like she couldn't really decide if it had been boring or not.
Kids learn to give up.
Kids who have to go to school learn to give up on wanting to be with their
moms.
Kids who wish their parents would do something exciting for them learn to
give up.
Kids who wish they had kept all their McDonald's toys in one big box learn
to justify the loss of them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
She asked me what about Nellie and Nancy Olson (from pbs Little House on the
Prairie). Why did they act the way they did even though their mom was
always buying them whatever they wanted?
That's like asking why the kids in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
act the way they do. Because they are caricatures. They are samples created
to "prove" a point that hasn't been really tested. They (and Nellie Olsen)
exist to control parents, and to keep kids down as an inferior type of
not-yet-really-human.
Nellie's mom was always telling her she was beautiful and better and
smarter, too.
That's one of my (several) objections to the idea of "giftedness" in
children. Parents cooing over kids and telling them they're superior to other
people isn't even a side-road to happiness.
-=- She said they didn't act like brats because they weren't spoiled--when
they got candy or toys or clothes it was a rare treat and they were grateful,
and they had to do chores.
Any thoughts on that? -=-
Only that it's the same old thing that's being said for years and years and
it doesn't make sense in practice. It's just a way to make kids "hungry"
enough that you can bribe them with slight privileges and cheap gifts in order
to control them. When a kid knows parents could tet them more toys or
clothes and the parents just don't, that does NOT make children grateful. When
they have to do chores because the parents are using them as unpaid (or even
kid-wage) labor, that doesn't make them grateful.
I have watched my whole life to see if the "spoiled" stuff worked. My mom
used to say my best friend was "spoiled," but she wasn't. It was just a
gratuitous insult because her parents had money and a really nice house. My mom
didn't want me to want to have Martha's life, so she said bad things about
Martha. Martha was nice and generous and never "acted rich" or acted smart
about her privileges.
I've heard other families say that about my kids, that they were "spoiled"
because they didn't have to take constant orders from their parents, or sit
next to their parents in public places. They wanted their kids to be satisfied
with being told exactly what to do and where and how to sit, instead of
wanting to run around and look at things in the building as Kirby and Marty were
doing, so they said "you don't want to be spoiled like they are; they'll grow
up unhappy; they'll never get a job."
When my kids were little we had a next-door neighbor who used to come over
and play every day or so. We had a Xerox box full of fast-food toys. He saw
that and his eyes got big and he asked if they could play with them. He was
clearly excited, but then his eyes got veiled and he came back to himself
(the self his mom was creating) and said "I don't save my toys like this,
because I'm not spoiled" or something. He was no longer as happy to see them,
because it proved my kids were spoiled (in the universe being created of guilt
and parental messages in his head).
The daughter of our most vocal critic came to Marty's pirate birthday party
when he was four or five. We had a buried treasure with a map, and she being
one of the oldest (nine, probably) was the chief navigator and figured out
how to read the map, and they dug up the treasure, which was an ammo box with
bags of candy and gold coins and a few hundred pennies. (I saw that ammo box
the other day, with the screen-printed pirate flag glued to it--I had
screenprinted a bunch of napkins and decorations, and made little flags, and one
was glued flat on that box; still is.) She was a "sit here and be quiet" kind
of kid, but her mom wasn't at the party. She SQUEALED when they opened the
box, and said FULL VOICE for everyone at the party to hear, "I wish my mom
would do something like this for me!" I hadn't seen her that excited since she
was at an amusement park when she was six or so.
By the time her mom showed up, though, she was back to her malaise, sighing,
being cynical, and when her mom asked her how the party was, she heaved a
dramatic sigh, looked past her mom (no eye contact), and said, "It was
o-kay..." like she couldn't really decide if it had been boring or not.
Kids learn to give up.
Kids who have to go to school learn to give up on wanting to be with their
moms.
Kids who wish their parents would do something exciting for them learn to
give up.
Kids who wish they had kept all their McDonald's toys in one big box learn
to justify the loss of them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/17/2005 7:50:43 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
As for what causes spoiled kids in real life...someone already mentioned
ingratitude. That's a biggie, to be sure. Gratitude is learned, and I would
say kids learn from whom they spend time with.
Negativity and discontent might or might not be genetic, but they are sure
contagious.
In a family where kids see smiling parents and hear "a cool thing happened
today" and "This is so great" instead of grumbling, sighing, eye-rolling "this
sucks" and "that's stupid" all the time, the kids are more likely to be
satisfied with whatever it is that they have.
If they think it's expected of them to whine and complain and express their
frustration with the stupid, unfair world around them, they'll do it.
When the parents do that and THEN on top of all that complain that their
kids are spoiled and unappreciative, it's just a disaster waiting to fester
until it blows. (Or some would say it blows already. <g>)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
As for what causes spoiled kids in real life...someone already mentioned
ingratitude. That's a biggie, to be sure. Gratitude is learned, and I would
say kids learn from whom they spend time with.
Negativity and discontent might or might not be genetic, but they are sure
contagious.
In a family where kids see smiling parents and hear "a cool thing happened
today" and "This is so great" instead of grumbling, sighing, eye-rolling "this
sucks" and "that's stupid" all the time, the kids are more likely to be
satisfied with whatever it is that they have.
If they think it's expected of them to whine and complain and express their
frustration with the stupid, unfair world around them, they'll do it.
When the parents do that and THEN on top of all that complain that their
kids are spoiled and unappreciative, it's just a disaster waiting to fester
until it blows. (Or some would say it blows already. <g>)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**She was a "sit here and be quiet" kind of kid, but her mom wasn't at
the party. She SQUEALED when they opened the box, and said FULL VOICE
for everyone at the party to hear, "I wish my mom would do something
like this for me!" **
Well there is more truth in this moment than in a whole lot of parental finger-waving about the perils of indulging children. I can really picture it.
**I hadn't seen her that excited since she
was at an amusement park when she was six or so. **
We were at the beach amusment park all day yesterday, in the rain, because one of my friends kids really wanted to do it. A memorable day.
**Kids who wish they had kept all their McDonald's toys in one big box learn
to justify the loss of them.**
I'd speculate that the reason a mom would get rid of McDonald's toys rather than accumulate them could be because she didn't want to keep picking them up. The deprivation-builds-character storyline sounds like it could be a convenient pretext.
Betsy
PS As a general rule, it's advisable to avoid the people whose bottom line philosophy is that "pleasure is bad". It's a pretty solid bet that they aren't going to be much fun! <g>
the party. She SQUEALED when they opened the box, and said FULL VOICE
for everyone at the party to hear, "I wish my mom would do something
like this for me!" **
Well there is more truth in this moment than in a whole lot of parental finger-waving about the perils of indulging children. I can really picture it.
**I hadn't seen her that excited since she
was at an amusement park when she was six or so. **
We were at the beach amusment park all day yesterday, in the rain, because one of my friends kids really wanted to do it. A memorable day.
**Kids who wish they had kept all their McDonald's toys in one big box learn
to justify the loss of them.**
I'd speculate that the reason a mom would get rid of McDonald's toys rather than accumulate them could be because she didn't want to keep picking them up. The deprivation-builds-character storyline sounds like it could be a convenient pretext.
Betsy
PS As a general rule, it's advisable to avoid the people whose bottom line philosophy is that "pleasure is bad". It's a pretty solid bet that they aren't going to be much fun! <g>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 16, 2005, at 10:12 PM, sheila wrote:
affection (truly being with them) they can still be needy in the midst
of plenty.
And it doesn't happen with just material goods. Dad can be working
extra hours so he can provide all the things he wants them to have. Mom
can spend her time making the house nice, cooking great meals, making
sure the kids are well clothed.
But what the kids understand from all the activity the parents are
devoting their time to is that those activities are more important than
the kids.
Joyce
> Why did they act the way they did even though their mom was alwaysIf kids are getting stuff as a substitute for honest attention and
> buying them whatever they wanted?
affection (truly being with them) they can still be needy in the midst
of plenty.
And it doesn't happen with just material goods. Dad can be working
extra hours so he can provide all the things he wants them to have. Mom
can spend her time making the house nice, cooking great meals, making
sure the kids are well clothed.
But what the kids understand from all the activity the parents are
devoting their time to is that those activities are more important than
the kids.
Joyce