Porn (was kids online)
Diana Tashjian
Well, this brings up a topic I've wondered about. My son is just 12
and he runs all over the Internet looking up World of Warcraft and
other game-type stuff. I'd expect him to show interest in porn sooner
or later. How have you guys with older kids handled this? How have you
explained what it is? Have you made any judgments about it?
Thanks for any thoughts or insight...
Diana Tashjian
and he runs all over the Internet looking up World of Warcraft and
other game-type stuff. I'd expect him to show interest in porn sooner
or later. How have you guys with older kids handled this? How have you
explained what it is? Have you made any judgments about it?
Thanks for any thoughts or insight...
Diana Tashjian
----- Original Message -----
<snip>
concerned that she will stumble onto porn sights (hasn't happened yet)
<snip>
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "Diana Tashjian"
<dtashjian@c...> wrote:
about how she handled porn/sexuality with Kirby (just wanted to remind
you of it, Sandra, because it was so helpful to me at the time).
We've not monitored our kids' use of the computer/Internet. But we
have talked about the dangers and have given them ideas for how to
protect themselves. Our kids don't post phone numbers or addresses and
use usually first names or screen names.
That said, my daughter has made real friends all over the world
through the Internet and these friends do have our address because
they send her gifts, letters and packages often! We've had gifts from
as far away as Latvia and Australia. :)
We've also met a couple of her online friends when we've traveled. She
is now 15.
As far as porn goes, if someone wants to find it, he will. To me, it's
similar to drugs, sex, and cigarettes - the bigger the taboo, the
stronger the appeal for some kids. I remember seeing a 14 year-ish old
boy at the library with a screen size of two inches scrolling up and
down a breast. <bg> He was in public! Not deterred.
So while we've talked about it with them, it isn't a focus of our
Internet preoccupation.
Julie B
<dtashjian@c...> wrote:
> Well, this brings up a topic I've wondered about. My son is just 12I hope Sandra will re-post her reply to this question where she shared
> and he runs all over the Internet looking up World of Warcraft and
> other game-type stuff. I'd expect him to show interest in porn sooner
> or later. How have you guys with older kids handled this? How have you
> explained what it is? Have you made any judgments about it?
>
> Thanks for any thoughts or insight...
about how she handled porn/sexuality with Kirby (just wanted to remind
you of it, Sandra, because it was so helpful to me at the time).
We've not monitored our kids' use of the computer/Internet. But we
have talked about the dangers and have given them ideas for how to
protect themselves. Our kids don't post phone numbers or addresses and
use usually first names or screen names.
That said, my daughter has made real friends all over the world
through the Internet and these friends do have our address because
they send her gifts, letters and packages often! We've had gifts from
as far away as Latvia and Australia. :)
We've also met a couple of her online friends when we've traveled. She
is now 15.
As far as porn goes, if someone wants to find it, he will. To me, it's
similar to drugs, sex, and cigarettes - the bigger the taboo, the
stronger the appeal for some kids. I remember seeing a 14 year-ish old
boy at the library with a screen size of two inches scrolling up and
down a breast. <bg> He was in public! Not deterred.
So while we've talked about it with them, it isn't a focus of our
Internet preoccupation.
Julie B
Pam Sorooshian
On May 27, 2005, at 9:52 AM, Julie Bogart wrote:
Something really interesting has happened recently. Roxana is involved
in an online role-playing activity where people interact on Live
Journal in the roles of famous literary characters. So you have
Sherlock Holmes chatting with Ender Wiggins and so on. Very cool. She
LOVES it. Is spending 5 or 6 hours per day on it, lately.
So - what's funny is that some of them have started writing real
LETTERS to each other - in long-hand, I mean, putting them in envelopes
and MAILING them to each other. For some of them, it just seems to be a
natural part of their character to want to write letters, so they're
doing it.
I LOVE it - seeing these in the mailbox - addressed to Rox's character
names!
When my oldest was in school, in 4th grade, they did an activity
called, "Hot Seat," where one person sat on a chair and the other kids
sat on the floor around him/her. The person on the chair was supposed
to pretend to be a character from a book the whole class was reading
and the other kids must ask that "character" questions and he/she would
answer (in character). Some kids - maybe 2 or 3 kids - really liked it
and got into it. The others went through the motions - they asked every
character the same few questions and they always gave the same rote
answers. Did their time.
Now there are all these people - hundreds, I think - spending hours
and hours pretending to be characters from literature and having
fascinating interactions with each other. Nobody's making them do it.
Roxana is regularly staying up until 3 am because she's enjoying it SO
much that she just can't make herself stop and go to bed.
This is HER thing - she loves literary stuff - character analysis and
so on. She's absolutely totally completely THRILLED to have discovered
all these other people who share this passion with her. I'm SO glad
she's not in school, being forced to do anything like this with people
who are NOT interested and just going through the motions, doing their
time!!!
-pam
>Mine have made far-away friends, too.
> That said, my daughter has made real friends all over the world
> through the Internet and these friends do have our address because
> they send her gifts, letters and packages often! We've had gifts from
> as far away as Latvia and Australia. :)
Something really interesting has happened recently. Roxana is involved
in an online role-playing activity where people interact on Live
Journal in the roles of famous literary characters. So you have
Sherlock Holmes chatting with Ender Wiggins and so on. Very cool. She
LOVES it. Is spending 5 or 6 hours per day on it, lately.
So - what's funny is that some of them have started writing real
LETTERS to each other - in long-hand, I mean, putting them in envelopes
and MAILING them to each other. For some of them, it just seems to be a
natural part of their character to want to write letters, so they're
doing it.
I LOVE it - seeing these in the mailbox - addressed to Rox's character
names!
When my oldest was in school, in 4th grade, they did an activity
called, "Hot Seat," where one person sat on a chair and the other kids
sat on the floor around him/her. The person on the chair was supposed
to pretend to be a character from a book the whole class was reading
and the other kids must ask that "character" questions and he/she would
answer (in character). Some kids - maybe 2 or 3 kids - really liked it
and got into it. The others went through the motions - they asked every
character the same few questions and they always gave the same rote
answers. Did their time.
Now there are all these people - hundreds, I think - spending hours
and hours pretending to be characters from literature and having
fascinating interactions with each other. Nobody's making them do it.
Roxana is regularly staying up until 3 am because she's enjoying it SO
much that she just can't make herself stop and go to bed.
This is HER thing - she loves literary stuff - character analysis and
so on. She's absolutely totally completely THRILLED to have discovered
all these other people who share this passion with her. I'm SO glad
she's not in school, being forced to do anything like this with people
who are NOT interested and just going through the motions, doing their
time!!!
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/27/2005 10:10:42 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
dtashjian@... writes:
Well, this brings up a topic I've wondered about. My son is just 12
and he runs all over the Internet looking up World of Warcraft and
other game-type stuff. I'd expect him to show interest in porn sooner
or later. How have you guys with older kids handled this? How have you
explained what it is? Have you made any judgments about it?
============================================
Anyone who read that should really think for a long while (half an hour, or
the rest of your lives <g>) what it would mean to have "made any judgments
about it." "Judgment" like whether you think it's a good or bad idea?
Judgment like taking the computer away?
Someone asked me to post what I had written about Kirby, but I think it's
probably something I wrote on this list about Marty a couple of years ago. It
just so happens someone asked me for this two days ago, so it's handy (and
has the message number there too in case anyone wants to go back into the
archives and read more of that discussion).
Oh! And just before that, I'm going to put here what I wrote when that mom
thanked me:
-----------------------------
Sometimes I'm criticized by people saying I'm disrespectful to my children
for sharing these kinds of stories, and every year or two I ask tell my kids
someone said such a thing, or ask if they mind, and they really don't. Their
whole lives started up in and around La Leche League, where moms are openly
nursing in front of each other AND working to share and learn about how to be
sweet to one's children. They understand what's going on with all this and
why, and (a big one) they are not ashamed of their lives.
Sandra
------------------------------------------(that was never on this list until
just now)------------------------------
Msg # From: SandraDodd@...
Date: Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:26 am
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Pornography and teens (long, true)
In a message dated 1/17/03 2:28:54 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< But boys get their curiosity blocked because there isn't any
acceptable "pornography" for boys. >>
Whether it's "acceptable" or not, there is a fair amount of written
fanfiction involving characters from comic book series, fantasy series, and
even video games. Some of it is just adventure/romance, and some is at least
as graphic as romance novels. Maybe it's for and by girls, though, I don't
know.
Two nights ago I wanted to play Destruct-o-Match on Neopets. Both Marty (14)
and Holly (11) play Neopets, and I have an account (just so I can play that
pattern-falling cascading game myself without having to ask Marty) and our
Mac Powerstrip we use to get to recent files, recent programs, recent sites
was FULL of porn stuff. I didn't open any, the titles themselves were gross
enough. OH!! I had wanted to get to Netflix to cancel getting a DVD I had
just rented (which didn't work).
Well anyway, usually I use it to get to Neopets games page.
I called Marty in, and said "Marty, this is a bit much."
He said "Most of it was pop-ups mom, I didn't really look at it all much.
Just some."
I asked him if he could cover those kinds of trails over so I didn't have to
know and so Holly wouldn't accidently see. I said he needed to open a bunch
of CLEAN websites and look at some better stuff so that would be on the
trail. He told me he could delete the trail. I said I didn't think he
could, that I had even asked Leon, one of the developers, who said it only
works on the Mac OSX version, not 9.
But Marty is a teenaged boy, so besides his porn curiosity he has a computer
facility. And he figured out a three-step process to erase that list through
Internet Explorer.
If I say "NO, never ever even look," I risk losing the communication we have
within which he will just tell me what he's seen and knows and where it came
from.
But that story has gone two days now. At first he was embarrassed and "Mom,
okay, I know, don't talk to me about it anymore." So I said I wanted to talk
to him one more time the next day, about whether he knows the reasons people
object to kids looking at porn.
The next day came and had nearly passed without me remembering, when he came
and said, "Okay, mom."
"What?"
"You wanted to talk to me about porn."
"Oh! Thanks. I hadn't remembered."
So I asked if he knew the objections. He said no. I said, "In all your
reading and listening you haven't heard objections to porn?"
"Well, that its illegal for me to see it."
I talked to him about degradation of women, about creating unhealthy and
unreasonable expectations in marriages, and that normal sex wasn't like that.
He said "Well, DUH, mom!" I said some people were messed up by WANTING it
to be. He seemed surprised that that could happen.
I told him that some of those who are filmed are not quite volunteers and
told him two stories, one of the mom of girls his age he's known his whole
life, who was photographed as a kid for posed stills which were sold out of
Oklahoma. It was shocking for him, and I don't know much detail, but naming
a person he knew who had been victimized was effective. I told him of a
drug dealer and illegal snake importer my younger half-brother had taken up
with some years back, who videod him and his then-girlfriend, and used it as
blackmail (she was from a Mormon family) to get them to deliver drugs for
him.
Then I said I didn't think it was the most horrible thing people could do, to
look at pictures, but he REALLY needed to be careful because it's illegal and
I didn't want the county coming to talk to me about anything they were doing.
(I had a similar moment with Holly later that evening about going outside in
a teensy fancy t-shirt and nylon pajama pants, no shoes, in January, while
she has a sore throat. "Illegal," I told her, for parents to allow that,
and let's not draw attention to a loose lifestyle by being outside in the
cold without proper attire.)
I told Marty that women tend to prefer word-porn and so they don't get
caught, but pictures were easy to find and more offensive.
I told him one danger was obsession. I didn't go into that much, because
some of the original arguments about obsession were the cost. I did have a
friend years ago who had a large collection of porn videos that had cost him
$60 to $80 apiece. Had he had the internet, his obsession wouldn't have
ruined his finances, nor left a mountain of evidence to shock his mom.
(That friend had a sex change operation since then, so I think it was his way
of dealing with deeper psychological and biological situations, and that was
way too much to tell Marty.)
Then I asked him if he had ANY idea how much trouble some other boys his age
would get into if their parents caught them having looked at that kind of
stuff on the computer. He said "Lots?" I talked about loss of computer
accesss, grounding, and physical spanking by some big grown man.
He said he had been mostly embarrassed when I first talked to him because he
had had friends in the house. They couldn't hear us, but he had to leave
where they were, talk to me, and go back in there, and it just embarrassed
him. I said in those worst-case situations, the parents would have called
all of the friends' parents, said to come get them, told them why, and some
of THEM would have been grounded and in trouble just for hanging out with
someone who had looked at porn.
I doubt he really fully believes me on those things, or maybe he can't fathom
a parent doing that to a child.
I don't mind having a kid who can't readily imagine being hit by an angry,
grown man or can't imagine being told "You stay in your room for a month and
don't even touch a computer."
For anyone who has read this far and is offended, I didn't mean to throw this
out to offend anyone. It's a candid, current situation involving a real teen.
And usually the trail on this real teen's internet use has Neopets, AoN (a
role-playing game), humor sites, and in-person friends' journals. People
who know Marty wouldn't think of him as a nasty kid. He's not. He is coming
into adulthood, though, and he's curious.
I think similar to make-up, if it is declared "only for adults," and a girl
waits and waits and WAITS until she can use it and is then unlikely to just
let it go unused, a boy who is slapped away from any glimpse of nudity until
he's eighteen is GOING to immerse himself in his newfound access for a while
the moment he gets a chance.
Keith and I were out grocery shopping, and talking about Kirby turning
seventeen this year. I said I used to want to have a big eighteenth birthday
celebration for him, like a graduation, but I no longer want to do that. I
don't want to declare an end to his learning, nor to his living with us if he
wants to stay. Keith said he had no ideas either, but that was fine. Said
"Well, I'm not going to get him drunk and take him to a whorehouse, so
there's probably going to be no rite of passage."
Kirby wouldn't want any of that anyway. ANOTHER good thing. When he turns
eighteen, he'll have more legal rights, but there won't be the effect of huge
tension released. He'll have no restrictions suddenly lifted.
I know this won't suit everyone's belief system, but it is working with us to
produce mature, calm, considerate, communicative teenaged boys. They're not
angry with us, they're not reactionary, they're not sneaky.
Sandra
-----
quotes are other people
-------
Msg # From: SandraDodd@...
Date: Sat Jan 18, 2003 9:20 am
<< My dh has shared that he believes that when the family is
unhealthy, porn more likely beomces an addiction to fill a hole. >>
I agree. I think it's the same as other "internet dangers." If a child has
nothing else to do and no affirmation of wholeness, the internet can be an
escape from what seems a lack of life. But when life is big and real and
happy, the child will be there, in his own real life.
<
issues I've raised. Your perspective and style of interaacting with
your kids is refreshing and gives me hope.>>
Thanks. Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry that I'll
cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE going so
well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth continuing to
share.
Sandra
--------------
anyone who wants to read the rest of that discussion can join
this list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
and go to message # 55403
and the responses, or go back two days and see the original question.
--------------
Subj: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Sandra's stories was Pornography and teens
Date: Saturday, January 18, 2003 3:25:54 PM
From: GDobes@...
To: [email protected]
In a message dated 01/18/2003 11:35:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kellitraas@... writes:
dtashjian@... writes:
Well, this brings up a topic I've wondered about. My son is just 12
and he runs all over the Internet looking up World of Warcraft and
other game-type stuff. I'd expect him to show interest in porn sooner
or later. How have you guys with older kids handled this? How have you
explained what it is? Have you made any judgments about it?
============================================
Anyone who read that should really think for a long while (half an hour, or
the rest of your lives <g>) what it would mean to have "made any judgments
about it." "Judgment" like whether you think it's a good or bad idea?
Judgment like taking the computer away?
Someone asked me to post what I had written about Kirby, but I think it's
probably something I wrote on this list about Marty a couple of years ago. It
just so happens someone asked me for this two days ago, so it's handy (and
has the message number there too in case anyone wants to go back into the
archives and read more of that discussion).
Oh! And just before that, I'm going to put here what I wrote when that mom
thanked me:
-----------------------------
Sometimes I'm criticized by people saying I'm disrespectful to my children
for sharing these kinds of stories, and every year or two I ask tell my kids
someone said such a thing, or ask if they mind, and they really don't. Their
whole lives started up in and around La Leche League, where moms are openly
nursing in front of each other AND working to share and learn about how to be
sweet to one's children. They understand what's going on with all this and
why, and (a big one) they are not ashamed of their lives.
Sandra
------------------------------------------(that was never on this list until
just now)------------------------------
Msg # From: SandraDodd@...
Date: Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:26 am
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Pornography and teens (long, true)
In a message dated 1/17/03 2:28:54 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< But boys get their curiosity blocked because there isn't any
acceptable "pornography" for boys. >>
Whether it's "acceptable" or not, there is a fair amount of written
fanfiction involving characters from comic book series, fantasy series, and
even video games. Some of it is just adventure/romance, and some is at least
as graphic as romance novels. Maybe it's for and by girls, though, I don't
know.
Two nights ago I wanted to play Destruct-o-Match on Neopets. Both Marty (14)
and Holly (11) play Neopets, and I have an account (just so I can play that
pattern-falling cascading game myself without having to ask Marty) and our
Mac Powerstrip we use to get to recent files, recent programs, recent sites
was FULL of porn stuff. I didn't open any, the titles themselves were gross
enough. OH!! I had wanted to get to Netflix to cancel getting a DVD I had
just rented (which didn't work).
Well anyway, usually I use it to get to Neopets games page.
I called Marty in, and said "Marty, this is a bit much."
He said "Most of it was pop-ups mom, I didn't really look at it all much.
Just some."
I asked him if he could cover those kinds of trails over so I didn't have to
know and so Holly wouldn't accidently see. I said he needed to open a bunch
of CLEAN websites and look at some better stuff so that would be on the
trail. He told me he could delete the trail. I said I didn't think he
could, that I had even asked Leon, one of the developers, who said it only
works on the Mac OSX version, not 9.
But Marty is a teenaged boy, so besides his porn curiosity he has a computer
facility. And he figured out a three-step process to erase that list through
Internet Explorer.
If I say "NO, never ever even look," I risk losing the communication we have
within which he will just tell me what he's seen and knows and where it came
from.
But that story has gone two days now. At first he was embarrassed and "Mom,
okay, I know, don't talk to me about it anymore." So I said I wanted to talk
to him one more time the next day, about whether he knows the reasons people
object to kids looking at porn.
The next day came and had nearly passed without me remembering, when he came
and said, "Okay, mom."
"What?"
"You wanted to talk to me about porn."
"Oh! Thanks. I hadn't remembered."
So I asked if he knew the objections. He said no. I said, "In all your
reading and listening you haven't heard objections to porn?"
"Well, that its illegal for me to see it."
I talked to him about degradation of women, about creating unhealthy and
unreasonable expectations in marriages, and that normal sex wasn't like that.
He said "Well, DUH, mom!" I said some people were messed up by WANTING it
to be. He seemed surprised that that could happen.
I told him that some of those who are filmed are not quite volunteers and
told him two stories, one of the mom of girls his age he's known his whole
life, who was photographed as a kid for posed stills which were sold out of
Oklahoma. It was shocking for him, and I don't know much detail, but naming
a person he knew who had been victimized was effective. I told him of a
drug dealer and illegal snake importer my younger half-brother had taken up
with some years back, who videod him and his then-girlfriend, and used it as
blackmail (she was from a Mormon family) to get them to deliver drugs for
him.
Then I said I didn't think it was the most horrible thing people could do, to
look at pictures, but he REALLY needed to be careful because it's illegal and
I didn't want the county coming to talk to me about anything they were doing.
(I had a similar moment with Holly later that evening about going outside in
a teensy fancy t-shirt and nylon pajama pants, no shoes, in January, while
she has a sore throat. "Illegal," I told her, for parents to allow that,
and let's not draw attention to a loose lifestyle by being outside in the
cold without proper attire.)
I told Marty that women tend to prefer word-porn and so they don't get
caught, but pictures were easy to find and more offensive.
I told him one danger was obsession. I didn't go into that much, because
some of the original arguments about obsession were the cost. I did have a
friend years ago who had a large collection of porn videos that had cost him
$60 to $80 apiece. Had he had the internet, his obsession wouldn't have
ruined his finances, nor left a mountain of evidence to shock his mom.
(That friend had a sex change operation since then, so I think it was his way
of dealing with deeper psychological and biological situations, and that was
way too much to tell Marty.)
Then I asked him if he had ANY idea how much trouble some other boys his age
would get into if their parents caught them having looked at that kind of
stuff on the computer. He said "Lots?" I talked about loss of computer
accesss, grounding, and physical spanking by some big grown man.
He said he had been mostly embarrassed when I first talked to him because he
had had friends in the house. They couldn't hear us, but he had to leave
where they were, talk to me, and go back in there, and it just embarrassed
him. I said in those worst-case situations, the parents would have called
all of the friends' parents, said to come get them, told them why, and some
of THEM would have been grounded and in trouble just for hanging out with
someone who had looked at porn.
I doubt he really fully believes me on those things, or maybe he can't fathom
a parent doing that to a child.
I don't mind having a kid who can't readily imagine being hit by an angry,
grown man or can't imagine being told "You stay in your room for a month and
don't even touch a computer."
For anyone who has read this far and is offended, I didn't mean to throw this
out to offend anyone. It's a candid, current situation involving a real teen.
And usually the trail on this real teen's internet use has Neopets, AoN (a
role-playing game), humor sites, and in-person friends' journals. People
who know Marty wouldn't think of him as a nasty kid. He's not. He is coming
into adulthood, though, and he's curious.
I think similar to make-up, if it is declared "only for adults," and a girl
waits and waits and WAITS until she can use it and is then unlikely to just
let it go unused, a boy who is slapped away from any glimpse of nudity until
he's eighteen is GOING to immerse himself in his newfound access for a while
the moment he gets a chance.
Keith and I were out grocery shopping, and talking about Kirby turning
seventeen this year. I said I used to want to have a big eighteenth birthday
celebration for him, like a graduation, but I no longer want to do that. I
don't want to declare an end to his learning, nor to his living with us if he
wants to stay. Keith said he had no ideas either, but that was fine. Said
"Well, I'm not going to get him drunk and take him to a whorehouse, so
there's probably going to be no rite of passage."
Kirby wouldn't want any of that anyway. ANOTHER good thing. When he turns
eighteen, he'll have more legal rights, but there won't be the effect of huge
tension released. He'll have no restrictions suddenly lifted.
I know this won't suit everyone's belief system, but it is working with us to
produce mature, calm, considerate, communicative teenaged boys. They're not
angry with us, they're not reactionary, they're not sneaky.
Sandra
-----
quotes are other people
-------
Msg # From: SandraDodd@...
Date: Sat Jan 18, 2003 9:20 am
<< My dh has shared that he believes that when the family is
unhealthy, porn more likely beomces an addiction to fill a hole. >>
I agree. I think it's the same as other "internet dangers." If a child has
nothing else to do and no affirmation of wholeness, the internet can be an
escape from what seems a lack of life. But when life is big and real and
happy, the child will be there, in his own real life.
<
issues I've raised. Your perspective and style of interaacting with
your kids is refreshing and gives me hope.>>
Thanks. Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry that I'll
cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE going so
well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth continuing to
share.
Sandra
--------------
anyone who wants to read the rest of that discussion can join
this list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
and go to message # 55403
and the responses, or go back two days and see the original question.
--------------
Subj: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Sandra's stories was Pornography and teens
Date: Saturday, January 18, 2003 3:25:54 PM
From: GDobes@...
To: [email protected]
In a message dated 01/18/2003 11:35:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kellitraas@... writes:
> **Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry that I'll[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE going
> so
> well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth continuing
> to
> share. **
>
>
> Sandra,
>
> Please keep writing these stories, they are so helpful. I know I've
> said it before but it bears repeating.
Diana Tashjian
Thank you for your take on this. I really like to hear lots of ideas
because it helps me clarify my own thinking. It's hard for me because
I always feel like I'm out of sync with the other moms around me
(including my own family) and it worries me :o(
Diana Tashjian
because it helps me clarify my own thinking. It's hard for me because
I always feel like I'm out of sync with the other moms around me
(including my own family) and it worries me :o(
Diana Tashjian
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<snip>
[email protected]
My son is just 12
and he runs all over the Internet looking up World of Warcraft and
other game-type stuff. I'd expect him to show interest in porn sooner
or later.
-----------
I just noticed the juxtaposition of those. <g>
Kirby's been playing World of Warcraft obsessively the last few days, and I
just talked to Holly, who says Darwin (the six year old whose family she's
staying with) has been playing it a lot.
Holly never has played World of Warcraft, but she said their first stop in
France was a rest stop, which was closed, but they saw bikers having sex
there. "Just minding their own business," she said. Then today they went to
Normandy, and to Omaha Beach, where the kids played in the German bunkers, heard
the story of the Allied landing and the casualties, and saw people having sex
on the beach.
So I'm thinking at the moment that kids are WAY safer from seeing other
folks having sex if they're looking for more World of Warcraft hints than if
they're visiting France. (And honestly, it's not like Holly went to a peep
show, or the participants were showing her any details or inviting her to join.
As she says, they were minding their own business. <g>
I need to go and the change the itinerary to reflect what I just learned
from Holly, but even though some of the details are not up to date (they ended
up going by boat instead of Eurotunnel), there are some good photos of Holly
very muddy (as muddy as a kid can get, I think) here:
_http://sandradodd.com/england_ (http://sandradodd.com/england)
(No photos of the French sex acts in public places.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and he runs all over the Internet looking up World of Warcraft and
other game-type stuff. I'd expect him to show interest in porn sooner
or later.
-----------
I just noticed the juxtaposition of those. <g>
Kirby's been playing World of Warcraft obsessively the last few days, and I
just talked to Holly, who says Darwin (the six year old whose family she's
staying with) has been playing it a lot.
Holly never has played World of Warcraft, but she said their first stop in
France was a rest stop, which was closed, but they saw bikers having sex
there. "Just minding their own business," she said. Then today they went to
Normandy, and to Omaha Beach, where the kids played in the German bunkers, heard
the story of the Allied landing and the casualties, and saw people having sex
on the beach.
So I'm thinking at the moment that kids are WAY safer from seeing other
folks having sex if they're looking for more World of Warcraft hints than if
they're visiting France. (And honestly, it's not like Holly went to a peep
show, or the participants were showing her any details or inviting her to join.
As she says, they were minding their own business. <g>
I need to go and the change the itinerary to reflect what I just learned
from Holly, but even though some of the details are not up to date (they ended
up going by boat instead of Eurotunnel), there are some good photos of Holly
very muddy (as muddy as a kid can get, I think) here:
_http://sandradodd.com/england_ (http://sandradodd.com/england)
(No photos of the French sex acts in public places.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie W
Pam Sorooshian wrote:
characters stayed "in character" and no one was having sex in the
classrooms) for about 6 months last year as an original character (a
professor at Hogwarts) it was fun. In the end real life, my refusal to
use IM, and the time differences between those of us here and those in
Great Britain made it something I could not keep up with, so I bowed
out. It was fun while it lasted and I try to still keep up with the
story lines when I can.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I was involved in a Harry Potter Live Journal RPG (one where the canon
> Mine have made far-away friends, too.
> Something really interesting has happened recently. Roxana is involved
> in an online role-playing activity where people interact on Live
> Journal in the roles of famous literary characters. So you have
> Sherlock Holmes chatting with Ender Wiggins and so on. Very cool. She
> LOVES it. Is spending 5 or 6 hours per day on it, lately.
> \
characters stayed "in character" and no one was having sex in the
classrooms) for about 6 months last year as an original character (a
professor at Hogwarts) it was fun. In the end real life, my refusal to
use IM, and the time differences between those of us here and those in
Great Britain made it something I could not keep up with, so I bowed
out. It was fun while it lasted and I try to still keep up with the
story lines when I can.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie W
Diana Tashjian wrote:
might start clicking on those smutty banner ads at sometime, but he got
a nasty browser hijacker a few months ago and has gotten real careful
about what he clicks on and which sites he visits. Right now our
computers are in the living room so there is less chance of lots of
viewing time---I think he wants to turn his closet into his "computer
spot" in his room now that I mentioned about Sandra's son so he may have
the computer in his room in the future.
I'm of two minds; I know he is a guy and at some point will look at smut
and I know that at his age I was curious and looked at my dad's
porn.Also read a lot of those soft core romance novels like " The Flame
and The Flower". I guess I'd rather he not, but I think (and its not a
bridge I've crossed yet) that if he does surf those sites I'll just
remind him why viewing porn is not the best way to spend his time and
that basically its illegal.
I'll feel like a hypocrite, since I read way too much smutty fanfiction
and look at fanart---among other things.
I guess if I was totally honest (and I've been way honest so far--- TMI
anyone?) I think there are a lot worst things the kid could be doing the
viewing dirty pictures.
~sigh~
You'd be surprised how much "really bad" (as in not getting the
mechanics, ect.) het and gay sex fanfiction is written by the 12-16 yr
old crowd----for that matter how many of them are reading lots of smutty
fanfiction too.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Well, this brings up a topic I've wondered about. My son is just 12My ds is 13 and a real late bloomer. I assume that in a year or so he
> and he runs all over the Internet looking up World of Warcraft and
> other game-type stuff. I'd expect him to show interest in porn sooner
> or later. How have you guys with older kids handled this? How have you
> explained what it is? Have you made any judgments about it?
>
might start clicking on those smutty banner ads at sometime, but he got
a nasty browser hijacker a few months ago and has gotten real careful
about what he clicks on and which sites he visits. Right now our
computers are in the living room so there is less chance of lots of
viewing time---I think he wants to turn his closet into his "computer
spot" in his room now that I mentioned about Sandra's son so he may have
the computer in his room in the future.
I'm of two minds; I know he is a guy and at some point will look at smut
and I know that at his age I was curious and looked at my dad's
porn.Also read a lot of those soft core romance novels like " The Flame
and The Flower". I guess I'd rather he not, but I think (and its not a
bridge I've crossed yet) that if he does surf those sites I'll just
remind him why viewing porn is not the best way to spend his time and
that basically its illegal.
I'll feel like a hypocrite, since I read way too much smutty fanfiction
and look at fanart---among other things.
I guess if I was totally honest (and I've been way honest so far--- TMI
anyone?) I think there are a lot worst things the kid could be doing the
viewing dirty pictures.
~sigh~
You'd be surprised how much "really bad" (as in not getting the
mechanics, ect.) het and gay sex fanfiction is written by the 12-16 yr
old crowd----for that matter how many of them are reading lots of smutty
fanfiction too.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
It's illegal to look at porn? Are you sure?
Mary Ellen
remind him why viewing porn is not the best way to spend his time and
that basically its illegal.
I'll feel like a hypocrite, since I read way too much smutty fanfiction
and look at fanart---among other things.
I guess if I was totally honest (and I've been way honest so far--- TMI
anyone?) I think there are a lot worst things the kid could be doing the
viewing dirty pictures.>>>>>>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Ellen
>>>>>>>I guess I'd rather he not, but I think (and its not abridge I've crossed yet) that if he does surf those sites I'll just
remind him why viewing porn is not the best way to spend his time and
that basically its illegal.
I'll feel like a hypocrite, since I read way too much smutty fanfiction
and look at fanart---among other things.
I guess if I was totally honest (and I've been way honest so far--- TMI
anyone?) I think there are a lot worst things the kid could be doing the
viewing dirty pictures.>>>>>>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/27/2005 6:22:29 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
I . . . read a lot of those soft core romance novels like " The Flame
and The Flower". I guess I'd rather he not
======
He won't!
It's really not fair that girls can get away with reading "romance novels"
(each with the requisite and traditional two hot, nasty sex scenes) and people
smile because they're reading books, but a boy can get caught with a copy of
Penthouse and all hell breaks loose.
It isn't fair, and it isn't healthy. (Not that the romance novels are
healthy, but I have read pretty many, and will probably read a few more before I
go.)
-=-I guess if I was totally honest (and I've been way honest so far--- TMI
anyone?) I think there are a lot worst things the kid could be doing the
viewing dirty pictures.-=-
And there are better things parents can do than create situations that cause
their kids to lie and sneak.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
I . . . read a lot of those soft core romance novels like " The Flame
and The Flower". I guess I'd rather he not
======
He won't!
It's really not fair that girls can get away with reading "romance novels"
(each with the requisite and traditional two hot, nasty sex scenes) and people
smile because they're reading books, but a boy can get caught with a copy of
Penthouse and all hell breaks loose.
It isn't fair, and it isn't healthy. (Not that the romance novels are
healthy, but I have read pretty many, and will probably read a few more before I
go.)
-=-I guess if I was totally honest (and I've been way honest so far--- TMI
anyone?) I think there are a lot worst things the kid could be doing the
viewing dirty pictures.-=-
And there are better things parents can do than create situations that cause
their kids to lie and sneak.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/27/2005 9:29:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
nellebelle@... writes:
It's illegal to look at porn? Are you sure?
Kiddie porn is illegal. I don't think other porn is illegal, they sell the
magazines almost anywhere.
Just like with anything in life, I think if you just flat out tell your
child NO, because I said so, it's going to make it much more attractive to them
and then the nasty chain of keeping things from the parents begins.
I'm not saying that a parent needs to know EVERYTHING a teen age child/young
adult does or have them tell the parent either. Lord knows there are many
things I could have done without hearing about from my kids at that age. But
now that I look back, I'm grateful they felt like they COULD share those
things with me and be open and honest and look for honest answers and not
judgements.
Sex is a part of life and no parents is ever going to stop a child/young
adults interest in it, no matter what you do or say, if they are interested
enough, they will find a way.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle@... writes:
It's illegal to look at porn? Are you sure?
Kiddie porn is illegal. I don't think other porn is illegal, they sell the
magazines almost anywhere.
Just like with anything in life, I think if you just flat out tell your
child NO, because I said so, it's going to make it much more attractive to them
and then the nasty chain of keeping things from the parents begins.
I'm not saying that a parent needs to know EVERYTHING a teen age child/young
adult does or have them tell the parent either. Lord knows there are many
things I could have done without hearing about from my kids at that age. But
now that I look back, I'm grateful they felt like they COULD share those
things with me and be open and honest and look for honest answers and not
judgements.
Sex is a part of life and no parents is ever going to stop a child/young
adults interest in it, no matter what you do or say, if they are interested
enough, they will find a way.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie W
nellebelle wrote:
On the Internet it is harder to deal with since different countries have
different ages at which kids are no longer minors or over the "age of
consent". Most of the fanfiction archives that I frequent, (those would
be ones where the ratings of stories go up to NC-17) like The Restricted
Section or Sycophant Hex, have disclaimers and say no one under 18 is
allowed to read. Now that just depends on the honesty of the reader. I
would assume these are more of a CYA action then any worry of folks over
say 16 reading smutty slash stories.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It's illegal to look at porn? Are you sure?Tell you the truth, I'm not sure. I know it illegal to sell to a minor.
>
> Mary Ellen
>
On the Internet it is harder to deal with since different countries have
different ages at which kids are no longer minors or over the "age of
consent". Most of the fanfiction archives that I frequent, (those would
be ones where the ratings of stories go up to NC-17) like The Restricted
Section or Sycophant Hex, have disclaimers and say no one under 18 is
allowed to read. Now that just depends on the honesty of the reader. I
would assume these are more of a CYA action then any worry of folks over
say 16 reading smutty slash stories.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie W
SandraDodd@... wrote:
;-)
Dh and I just discussed this. I was asking him if he would freak out if
Josh ended up looking at porn online and Jim was like "I'm surprised he
hasn't yet."
He did also state that he felt looking at Playboy and reading Penthouse
letters created unrealistic expectations in him when he was younger, but
we are not going to punish the boy if we find out he's been trying to
access porn online.
If I find charges on my phone bill or credit card I would be a tad upset.
You can tell this is a subject I am just totally ~meh~ about.
Maybe I would care more if I had a younger kid who might have a chance
of coming behind Josh and following the history of his online time.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>They sure can create some unrealistic expectations can't they?
> In a message dated 5/27/2005 6:22:29 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
>
> I . . . read a lot of those soft core romance novels like " The Flame
> and The Flower". I guess I'd rather he not
>
>
> ======
>
> He won't!
> It's really not fair that girls can get away with reading "romance
> novels"
> (each with the requisite and traditional two hot, nasty sex scenes)
> and people
> smile because they're reading books, but a boy can get caught with a
> copy of
> Penthouse and all hell breaks loose.
>
> It isn't fair, and it isn't healthy. (Not that the romance novels are
> healthy, but I have read pretty many, and will probably read a few
> more before I
> go.)
;-)
Dh and I just discussed this. I was asking him if he would freak out if
Josh ended up looking at porn online and Jim was like "I'm surprised he
hasn't yet."
He did also state that he felt looking at Playboy and reading Penthouse
letters created unrealistic expectations in him when he was younger, but
we are not going to punish the boy if we find out he's been trying to
access porn online.
If I find charges on my phone bill or credit card I would be a tad upset.
>Well sure---that is something I don't want to do.
> -=-I guess if I was totally honest (and I've been way honest so far---
> TMI
> anyone?) I think there are a lot worst things the kid could be doing the
> viewing dirty pictures.-=-
>
> And there are better things parents can do than create situations
> that cause
> their kids to lie and sneak.
>
> Sandra
You can tell this is a subject I am just totally ~meh~ about.
Maybe I would care more if I had a younger kid who might have a chance
of coming behind Josh and following the history of his online time.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
The first nude photo of people I had ever seen was not porn. It was a bunch
of nude sunbathers on a beach (probably France, where Holly has personal
experience suggesting people are going at it everywhere, and yet these people
were NOT going at it whatsoever). Mostly men, mostly older, just being there,
lying in the sun with their eyes closed, and it was a distance shot so they
were ... If a computer screen were the whole photo, the people were about the
size of a person's finger, and about 15 of them showed, and then there was
some beach, and some cliff.
Not detailed. We were all 12/13 (early 8th grade) and one of the boys
brought it. We were taking turns looking at it and then folding it quietly back
and passing it on. What was the big buzz will probably seem stupid to some of
the people here.
This was a little town in northern New Mexico. Almost all of us (over 99%)
had dark brown hair, or black hair (some of the Indian kids, and half-Indian,
some of them brown hair too). Few of us had much public hair yet. Even the
two redheaded kids (one strawberry blonde, a girl from Texas; one
dark-red-haired boy of a really old local Hispanic family) had dark-haired parents.
There had been a blonde girl in our class (larger class; 300 kids or so in 8th
grade that year) but she wasn't there that year for some reason I don't
remember (Martha-Ellen something; went to my church, I sold her my piano when I
was 22 or so).
We were all looking at the red and blonde pubic hair. The discussion was
that we hadn't realized people with light-colored hair on their heads would also
have that color of public hair. I was surprised at how much pubic hair a man
could have, and chest hair. My only prior experience was of men having
beards that didn't necessarily match the hair on their heads.
I just realized that it was that same physical classroom we passed that
nude-beach photo around in that was my classroom when I was teaching sex ed to my
class, and Judy K's class, and Alice Prather's class, because the other two
of them were too shy and clueless to begin to discuss it with them. Never in
all those years have I connected those two incidents. Room A-9, of a school
building that was built by the WPA and is no longer classrooms.
I don't think kids (even boys who are touching themselves) look at porn the
way adults do. I don't think our guesses of what they're thinking are likely
to be entirely on target. I DO know parental reaction can screw kids up and
parents won't get the reaction they'd hoped for (if they'd thought about
what they thought their rules or shaming would get them).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of nude sunbathers on a beach (probably France, where Holly has personal
experience suggesting people are going at it everywhere, and yet these people
were NOT going at it whatsoever). Mostly men, mostly older, just being there,
lying in the sun with their eyes closed, and it was a distance shot so they
were ... If a computer screen were the whole photo, the people were about the
size of a person's finger, and about 15 of them showed, and then there was
some beach, and some cliff.
Not detailed. We were all 12/13 (early 8th grade) and one of the boys
brought it. We were taking turns looking at it and then folding it quietly back
and passing it on. What was the big buzz will probably seem stupid to some of
the people here.
This was a little town in northern New Mexico. Almost all of us (over 99%)
had dark brown hair, or black hair (some of the Indian kids, and half-Indian,
some of them brown hair too). Few of us had much public hair yet. Even the
two redheaded kids (one strawberry blonde, a girl from Texas; one
dark-red-haired boy of a really old local Hispanic family) had dark-haired parents.
There had been a blonde girl in our class (larger class; 300 kids or so in 8th
grade that year) but she wasn't there that year for some reason I don't
remember (Martha-Ellen something; went to my church, I sold her my piano when I
was 22 or so).
We were all looking at the red and blonde pubic hair. The discussion was
that we hadn't realized people with light-colored hair on their heads would also
have that color of public hair. I was surprised at how much pubic hair a man
could have, and chest hair. My only prior experience was of men having
beards that didn't necessarily match the hair on their heads.
I just realized that it was that same physical classroom we passed that
nude-beach photo around in that was my classroom when I was teaching sex ed to my
class, and Judy K's class, and Alice Prather's class, because the other two
of them were too shy and clueless to begin to discuss it with them. Never in
all those years have I connected those two incidents. Room A-9, of a school
building that was built by the WPA and is no longer classrooms.
I don't think kids (even boys who are touching themselves) look at porn the
way adults do. I don't think our guesses of what they're thinking are likely
to be entirely on target. I DO know parental reaction can screw kids up and
parents won't get the reaction they'd hoped for (if they'd thought about
what they thought their rules or shaming would get them).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
You'd be surprised how much "really bad" (as in not getting the
mechanics, ect.) het and gay sex fanfiction is written by the 12-16 yr
old crowd----for that matter how many of them are reading lots of smutty
fanfiction too.**
The suggestion "write what you know" is pretty good advice. Certainly a lot of uninsightful incoherent stuff can be written by people when they don't know what they are talking about.
Betsy
You'd be surprised how much "really bad" (as in not getting the
mechanics, ect.) het and gay sex fanfiction is written by the 12-16 yr
old crowd----for that matter how many of them are reading lots of smutty
fanfiction too.**
The suggestion "write what you know" is pretty good advice. Certainly a lot of uninsightful incoherent stuff can be written by people when they don't know what they are talking about.
Betsy