more input on TV question, please
[email protected]
This is my response to an e-mail from someone not on the list, but I've
invited that write to come and see other responses. What am I missing? What might
I have stated too strongly? The kids are younger than ten, older then four,
and I'm trying to maintain anonymity so if you know who it is, don't out the
family.
==========================================================
<< Since de-ruling, [older of two, a boy] has had periods of literally 8, 10
hours a day of
watching tv, animated cartoons almost exclusively. >>
But it's directly because of the rules.
And don't think of it as "de-ruling," think of it as giving him choices and
freedom.
-=-He did comment that he learns some useful information from watching
tv, and I agreed that this was true, but I was concerned about the amount he
was watching. -=-
It sounds like you not only miss controlling his TV access, but that you
felt/feel you have some control over what he's learning.
Why were you reading for two hours before? I'm guessing it was for the joy
of stories and information.
When you say "TV" does that include DVD/videos?
-=- He has also invited me to watch with him, which I do some but
not all of the time.-=-
When you say "he has invited me," it strikes me that you're never inviting
him. It's not a shared activity, it's his and you resent it.
-=- I feel like [he] may be to some
extent wondering if he can really trust us this time-=-
He's right. If he TOTALLY doesn't believe he can trust that this is not
temporary, he's exactly right. You haven't relaxed about it, you and your husband
have discussed pulling the rug out from under him and you've written to me.
You shouldn't "feel like" "to some extent" he's wondering, you should KNOW he
knows he's in a flimsy situation and he wants to watch all the TV he can
before you revoke the temporary offer.
-=-Have you heard
of similar situations with a "de-ruling" period? How long might this last?-=-
I've never heard of a situation where strict rules were relaxed and the kid
did NOT binge.
-=I have posed this situation to several unschooling friends of mine, and they
all basically said let the tv go, and until they really believe I won't
bring restrictions back, they are going to be watching a lot. -=-
You already had the answer, then.
There are places you could ask these questions so that the answers would
benefit LOTS of people and so that you would get ore than one person's response.
And if you were already hooked into a big discussion list or message board,
you might've seen other discussions that would have been helpful to you.
There are some lists listed here:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/other
Homeschooling Basics might be your best bet. I'm not on that, but I hear
good things about it. The main folks there are Kelly Lovejoy, Ren Allen and Deb
Lewis, I think.
there is a message board here:
http://unschooling.info/forum
Here are collections of writings on TV:
http://sandradodd.com/tv
and some on books, as I'm guessing you're comparing books pretty directly to
TV:
http://sandradodd.com/books
-=-Sometimes I feel like I'm coercing them to turn
it off, and [this kid] especially seems to do it sometimes out of deference to
my wishes instead of him wanting to do it for himself. I have tried to talk
to him about this as well, that he needs to make tv choices based on what he
feels is right for him.-=-
I think you're talking too much about it, and thinking too much about it, and
worrying too much about it. You're resisting life instead of going WITH it.
It seems you ARE coercing him, with guilt and wistful sighs about the way it
was before. You're damaging your relationship with him, I'm guessing, by
doing that.
-=-I have told both of them how much I love them, wanted to have them, want to
spend time with them, etc. Sometimes I feel like I'm coercing them. . .-=-
It does sound like a confession of pressure and shaming.
-=- So, part of
my being at a loss is wondering how much to say about the tv, trying to get
them away from it, how I'm concerned about the amount they're watching, etc.-
=-
I think you should say NOTHING negative.
You created the situation, and you all need to live through the aftermath,
not have more "situation" put upon them.
If you want them to trust you about more important things in the future, you
need to be more trustworthy in this situation.
And what else is going on in your lives? When's the last time you went to
the children's museum, the zoo, miniature golf, a hike with a picnic? Don't do
those things just to get the TV turned off, though. Do them because they
make life richer and happier.
Do you have a good VCR or TIVO or a way to record their favorite shows so
they won't mind being gone? Maybe they have a genetically-gained need to
control, and the ability to record up some good stuff would keep them from wanting
to watch as much as they could, too.
I'm going to take this to UnschoolingDiscussion (I won't use your names) and
ask for more comments. They might think I've already covered it, or there
might be more discussion. If you want to join for a while to see what might be
said, email here:
[email protected]
Sandra
invited that write to come and see other responses. What am I missing? What might
I have stated too strongly? The kids are younger than ten, older then four,
and I'm trying to maintain anonymity so if you know who it is, don't out the
family.
==========================================================
<< Since de-ruling, [older of two, a boy] has had periods of literally 8, 10
hours a day of
watching tv, animated cartoons almost exclusively. >>
But it's directly because of the rules.
And don't think of it as "de-ruling," think of it as giving him choices and
freedom.
-=-He did comment that he learns some useful information from watching
tv, and I agreed that this was true, but I was concerned about the amount he
was watching. -=-
It sounds like you not only miss controlling his TV access, but that you
felt/feel you have some control over what he's learning.
Why were you reading for two hours before? I'm guessing it was for the joy
of stories and information.
When you say "TV" does that include DVD/videos?
-=- He has also invited me to watch with him, which I do some but
not all of the time.-=-
When you say "he has invited me," it strikes me that you're never inviting
him. It's not a shared activity, it's his and you resent it.
-=- I feel like [he] may be to some
extent wondering if he can really trust us this time-=-
He's right. If he TOTALLY doesn't believe he can trust that this is not
temporary, he's exactly right. You haven't relaxed about it, you and your husband
have discussed pulling the rug out from under him and you've written to me.
You shouldn't "feel like" "to some extent" he's wondering, you should KNOW he
knows he's in a flimsy situation and he wants to watch all the TV he can
before you revoke the temporary offer.
-=-Have you heard
of similar situations with a "de-ruling" period? How long might this last?-=-
I've never heard of a situation where strict rules were relaxed and the kid
did NOT binge.
-=I have posed this situation to several unschooling friends of mine, and they
all basically said let the tv go, and until they really believe I won't
bring restrictions back, they are going to be watching a lot. -=-
You already had the answer, then.
There are places you could ask these questions so that the answers would
benefit LOTS of people and so that you would get ore than one person's response.
And if you were already hooked into a big discussion list or message board,
you might've seen other discussions that would have been helpful to you.
There are some lists listed here:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/other
Homeschooling Basics might be your best bet. I'm not on that, but I hear
good things about it. The main folks there are Kelly Lovejoy, Ren Allen and Deb
Lewis, I think.
there is a message board here:
http://unschooling.info/forum
Here are collections of writings on TV:
http://sandradodd.com/tv
and some on books, as I'm guessing you're comparing books pretty directly to
TV:
http://sandradodd.com/books
-=-Sometimes I feel like I'm coercing them to turn
it off, and [this kid] especially seems to do it sometimes out of deference to
my wishes instead of him wanting to do it for himself. I have tried to talk
to him about this as well, that he needs to make tv choices based on what he
feels is right for him.-=-
I think you're talking too much about it, and thinking too much about it, and
worrying too much about it. You're resisting life instead of going WITH it.
It seems you ARE coercing him, with guilt and wistful sighs about the way it
was before. You're damaging your relationship with him, I'm guessing, by
doing that.
-=-I have told both of them how much I love them, wanted to have them, want to
spend time with them, etc. Sometimes I feel like I'm coercing them. . .-=-
It does sound like a confession of pressure and shaming.
-=- So, part of
my being at a loss is wondering how much to say about the tv, trying to get
them away from it, how I'm concerned about the amount they're watching, etc.-
=-
I think you should say NOTHING negative.
You created the situation, and you all need to live through the aftermath,
not have more "situation" put upon them.
If you want them to trust you about more important things in the future, you
need to be more trustworthy in this situation.
And what else is going on in your lives? When's the last time you went to
the children's museum, the zoo, miniature golf, a hike with a picnic? Don't do
those things just to get the TV turned off, though. Do them because they
make life richer and happier.
Do you have a good VCR or TIVO or a way to record their favorite shows so
they won't mind being gone? Maybe they have a genetically-gained need to
control, and the ability to record up some good stuff would keep them from wanting
to watch as much as they could, too.
I'm going to take this to UnschoolingDiscussion (I won't use your names) and
ask for more comments. They might think I've already covered it, or there
might be more discussion. If you want to join for a while to see what might be
said, email here:
[email protected]
Sandra
[email protected]
-=-=-=- Since de-ruling, [older of two, a boy] has had periods of
literally 8, 10 and Thours a day of watching tv, animated cartoons
almost exclusively. -=-=-=-
Duncan (9) will do this too. Wakes up and turns the tv on. It's on
until he goes to sleep. Cartoon Network almost exclusively. And
whatever channel Family Guy and The Simpsons is on. <g>
Other days it's never turned on.
My standard reply to this concern is to *make* the child watch a
minimum of 12 hours/day! <g> That's a joke, son! But it's amazing how
uninteresting something can become if you're forced to participate!
Duncan's been restless lately. Asking to do something *new*. Tired and
bored with tv.
Brought me a book today---we read for hours---until I went to sleep. I
can read silently until 3-4:00am, but make me read aloud, and I'm
asleep immediately. Damn, maybe I should do that when I'm suffering
from insomia!
-=-He did comment that he learns some useful information from watching
tv, and I agreed that this was true, but I was concerned about the
amount he was watching. -=-
This is Ben's problem as well. He would rather that Duncan be outside.
Ben was (and is) an outdoor kind of kid. Duncan's not a jock, but does
spend a lot of tme in the pool and on the trampoline. He doesn't play
any organized sports---I think *that's* what bothers Ben.
It's easy to see that he learns a lot from tv--he blows us away all the
time with things he got from tv. His vocabulary is huge
-=- He has also invited me to watch with him, which I do some but not
all of the time.-=-
I understand. I can handle only so much of Inuyasha per day! <g> Even
Scooby-Doo gets old after a marathon! <g>
And we have TiVo, so we can watch things over and over and over and
over! <g> But the TiVo is located in the den, so I get to watch too!
Not always my idea of a good time.
-=- I feel like [he] may be to some extent wondering if he can really
trust us this time-=-
Well, you're probably right, here! That trust thang is really delicate.
You have to really let go of the controls and truly trust.
It's NOT easy. And each time you backslide, you've weakened that link.
-=-Have you heard of similar situations with a "de-ruling" period? How
long might this last?-=-
Well, the rule of thumb with deschooling is one month for each year of
school or school-at-home. And you have to start counting from the
beginning again whenever you backslide.
-=I have posed this situation to several unschooling friends of mine,
and they all basically said let the tv go, and until they really
believe I won't bring restrictions back, they are going to be watching
a lot. -=-
Uh huh. Same for anything that was restricted. But TV is especially
hard because of programs like "No TV Week" and bumper stickers that
say, "Kill your TV."
There are even commercials on Cartoon Network that tell kids to turn
off the tv and go outside. That's pretty pathetic! Even the *TV* sends
the message that tv is bad!
-=-Sometimes I feel like I'm coercing them to turn it off, and [this
kid] especially seems to do it sometimes out of deference to my wishes
instead of him wanting to do it for himself. I have tried to talkto
him about this as well, that he needs to make tv choices based on what
he feels is right for him.-=-
Duncan will turn the tv off for me when I just can't stand it any
more---and ask whether he can watch in the den when I'm working in
there. He's OK with whatever my answer is because I'm OK with *his*
answers! But he has a tv in his room and can go in there when I'm tv
toast.
It's deference---but it's mutual!
-=-I have told both of them how much I love them, wanted to have them,
want to spend time with them, etc. Sometimes I feel like I'm coercing
them. . .-=-
To me it's not so much about TELLING them how much...... It's about
*SHOWING* them that.
That can mean accepting that the tv is important right now.
And doing cool things yourself---SHOW them what interests you. Garden,
train the dog, knit, make furniture---find something that you're
passionate about. You really have to model the behavior you'd like to
see in them. If you spend you free time in the evenings watching tv,...
<g>
-=- So, part of my being at a loss is wondering how much to say about
the tv, trying to get them away from it, how I'm concerned about the
amount they're watching, etc.-=-
Say NOTHING. Support them (with snacks and drinks and getting involved
in the programming) when they are watching, and "pretend" that they
aren't watching enough! <g> Seriously---if they're not watching 12
hours, it's not enough. If you change your *own* thinking about this
(just like unschooling and "academics"), you'll be less likely to see
it as "enough" or bad.
-=-=-=-
From Sandra:
Do you have a good VCR or TIVO or a way to record their favorite shows
so they won't mind being gone? Maybe they have a genetically-gained
need to control, and the ability to record up some good stuff would
keep them from wanting to watch as much as they could, too.
-=-=-=
TiVo is really handy. Duncan often seemed tired because he *really*
wanted to stay up and watch Adult Swim. Ben won the TiVo machine and
one year's subscription through work. We probably wouldn't have gotten
it otherwise (we're techo-challenged). Duncan loves it. He can record
all his favorite shows in a season pass---and he can watch it when he
wakes up. He can do *whatever* and know that he won't miss anything
important to him.
And I can score The West Wing on dog obedience night! <g> Duncan would
rather eat glass than watch The West Wing---but understands that *I*
like it! <g> I try to do the same for him.
~Kelly
literally 8, 10 and Thours a day of watching tv, animated cartoons
almost exclusively. -=-=-=-
Duncan (9) will do this too. Wakes up and turns the tv on. It's on
until he goes to sleep. Cartoon Network almost exclusively. And
whatever channel Family Guy and The Simpsons is on. <g>
Other days it's never turned on.
My standard reply to this concern is to *make* the child watch a
minimum of 12 hours/day! <g> That's a joke, son! But it's amazing how
uninteresting something can become if you're forced to participate!
Duncan's been restless lately. Asking to do something *new*. Tired and
bored with tv.
Brought me a book today---we read for hours---until I went to sleep. I
can read silently until 3-4:00am, but make me read aloud, and I'm
asleep immediately. Damn, maybe I should do that when I'm suffering
from insomia!
-=-He did comment that he learns some useful information from watching
tv, and I agreed that this was true, but I was concerned about the
amount he was watching. -=-
This is Ben's problem as well. He would rather that Duncan be outside.
Ben was (and is) an outdoor kind of kid. Duncan's not a jock, but does
spend a lot of tme in the pool and on the trampoline. He doesn't play
any organized sports---I think *that's* what bothers Ben.
It's easy to see that he learns a lot from tv--he blows us away all the
time with things he got from tv. His vocabulary is huge
-=- He has also invited me to watch with him, which I do some but not
all of the time.-=-
I understand. I can handle only so much of Inuyasha per day! <g> Even
Scooby-Doo gets old after a marathon! <g>
And we have TiVo, so we can watch things over and over and over and
over! <g> But the TiVo is located in the den, so I get to watch too!
Not always my idea of a good time.
-=- I feel like [he] may be to some extent wondering if he can really
trust us this time-=-
Well, you're probably right, here! That trust thang is really delicate.
You have to really let go of the controls and truly trust.
It's NOT easy. And each time you backslide, you've weakened that link.
-=-Have you heard of similar situations with a "de-ruling" period? How
long might this last?-=-
Well, the rule of thumb with deschooling is one month for each year of
school or school-at-home. And you have to start counting from the
beginning again whenever you backslide.
-=I have posed this situation to several unschooling friends of mine,
and they all basically said let the tv go, and until they really
believe I won't bring restrictions back, they are going to be watching
a lot. -=-
Uh huh. Same for anything that was restricted. But TV is especially
hard because of programs like "No TV Week" and bumper stickers that
say, "Kill your TV."
There are even commercials on Cartoon Network that tell kids to turn
off the tv and go outside. That's pretty pathetic! Even the *TV* sends
the message that tv is bad!
-=-Sometimes I feel like I'm coercing them to turn it off, and [this
kid] especially seems to do it sometimes out of deference to my wishes
instead of him wanting to do it for himself. I have tried to talkto
him about this as well, that he needs to make tv choices based on what
he feels is right for him.-=-
Duncan will turn the tv off for me when I just can't stand it any
more---and ask whether he can watch in the den when I'm working in
there. He's OK with whatever my answer is because I'm OK with *his*
answers! But he has a tv in his room and can go in there when I'm tv
toast.
It's deference---but it's mutual!
-=-I have told both of them how much I love them, wanted to have them,
want to spend time with them, etc. Sometimes I feel like I'm coercing
them. . .-=-
To me it's not so much about TELLING them how much...... It's about
*SHOWING* them that.
That can mean accepting that the tv is important right now.
And doing cool things yourself---SHOW them what interests you. Garden,
train the dog, knit, make furniture---find something that you're
passionate about. You really have to model the behavior you'd like to
see in them. If you spend you free time in the evenings watching tv,...
<g>
-=- So, part of my being at a loss is wondering how much to say about
the tv, trying to get them away from it, how I'm concerned about the
amount they're watching, etc.-=-
Say NOTHING. Support them (with snacks and drinks and getting involved
in the programming) when they are watching, and "pretend" that they
aren't watching enough! <g> Seriously---if they're not watching 12
hours, it's not enough. If you change your *own* thinking about this
(just like unschooling and "academics"), you'll be less likely to see
it as "enough" or bad.
-=-=-=-
From Sandra:
Do you have a good VCR or TIVO or a way to record their favorite shows
so they won't mind being gone? Maybe they have a genetically-gained
need to control, and the ability to record up some good stuff would
keep them from wanting to watch as much as they could, too.
-=-=-=
TiVo is really handy. Duncan often seemed tired because he *really*
wanted to stay up and watch Adult Swim. Ben won the TiVo machine and
one year's subscription through work. We probably wouldn't have gotten
it otherwise (we're techo-challenged). Duncan loves it. He can record
all his favorite shows in a season pass---and he can watch it when he
wakes up. He can do *whatever* and know that he won't miss anything
important to him.
And I can score The West Wing on dog obedience night! <g> Duncan would
rather eat glass than watch The West Wing---but understands that *I*
like it! <g> I try to do the same for him.
~Kelly
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
==> This is my response to an e-mail from someone not on the list, but
I've
> invited that write to come and see other responses. What am I
missing? ==
From my own experience -- my nearly 8-yr.-old son has the TV on most
days, pretty much all day (and I'm fine with that). It's been this
way for over a year and a half. So that might happen with her child,
too, no matter how much she loosens up and trusts her child's learning.
I mention this because when I first started reading on this list, I
got the impression that the TV watching would decrease over time, if I
relaxed about it and was available and offered other fun things that I
was honestly excited about. I still do that and think that's all good
advice, but I think it's worth knowing that for some kids, the TV
viewing may not decrease, and that's okay, too.
In my son's case, he is most comfortable at home, and he likes to
watch TV while doing other things -- pretend games, build forts and
lifeboats with the sofa cushions, play GameBoy or computer games, jump
around. So I do things near him, and have the living room set up so
that I can read or check email or fold laundry or whatever while I'm
near him -- not necessarily watching the show all the time, but
watching him and hearing his thoughts during the commercials and
playing bits of pretend here and there.
It has taken a while to get used to the nearly constant presence of
the TV, but now I just know that it means my son is at home, right
where he wants to be. <g>
Peace,
Amy
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], "arcarpenter2003"
<arcarpenter@g...> wrote:
==I think it's worth knowing that for some kids, the TV
personality (as in the Elaine Aron definition of sensitive), and it
can be stressful for him, at this tender age, to go out into the world
very often, even into what others would see as pretty friendly
situations. So the TV is his way of letting the world come to him.
That's why I respect his TV viewing so much -- through it, he can
learn about the world on his terms.
So this mother may want to look at the sensitivity of the child that's
watching a lot of TV right now. It sounds like it's too early to tell
whether it's just normal post-rule bingeing or something else. But
either way it's to be respected and learned from.
And for anyone else here who may want to know more about highly
sensitive children, here are a couple of resources:
Anne Ohman's Shining with Unschooling list, about unschooling atypical
children: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling/
Elaine Aron's website -- she's the author of _The Highly Sensitive
Person_ and _The Highly Sensitive Child_: http://www.hsperson.com/
Sorry for the double posting -- I needed to sleep on it to get to the
core of my message. <g>
Peace,
Amy
<arcarpenter@g...> wrote:
==I think it's worth knowing that for some kids, the TV
> viewing may not decrease, and that's okay, too.What I want to add here was that my son has a pretty sensitive
>
> In my son's case, he is most comfortable at home, and he likes to
> watch TV while doing other things ==
personality (as in the Elaine Aron definition of sensitive), and it
can be stressful for him, at this tender age, to go out into the world
very often, even into what others would see as pretty friendly
situations. So the TV is his way of letting the world come to him.
That's why I respect his TV viewing so much -- through it, he can
learn about the world on his terms.
So this mother may want to look at the sensitivity of the child that's
watching a lot of TV right now. It sounds like it's too early to tell
whether it's just normal post-rule bingeing or something else. But
either way it's to be respected and learned from.
And for anyone else here who may want to know more about highly
sensitive children, here are a couple of resources:
Anne Ohman's Shining with Unschooling list, about unschooling atypical
children: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling/
Elaine Aron's website -- she's the author of _The Highly Sensitive
Person_ and _The Highly Sensitive Child_: http://www.hsperson.com/
Sorry for the double posting -- I needed to sleep on it to get to the
core of my message. <g>
Peace,
Amy
Sylvia Toyama
<< Since de-ruling, [older of two, a boy] has had periods of literally 8, 10 hours a day of watching tv, animated cartoons almost exclusively. >>
I have to ask, given that now the weather is better and daylight is longer, what Mom and the other child are doing while this boy watches TV for 8 - 10 hours. Are there any other activities going on? games, outside play, walks, picnics, bike-riding? Has Mom suggested any, or is she waiting for the child to request it?
I sometimes find myself worrying about the amount of TV our boys watch during the colder, darker months when we don't get out every day, but I've come to think of it as a seasonal thing. Now that warmer days are here, we're generally out of the house (almost exclusively outdoors at that) 7 - 10 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week.
Engage him in something together. I also liked your comment that by not inviting him to watch TV with her, she's made it his activity alone, not something to be shared.
gotta go -- Dan wants to play.
Sylvia
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have to ask, given that now the weather is better and daylight is longer, what Mom and the other child are doing while this boy watches TV for 8 - 10 hours. Are there any other activities going on? games, outside play, walks, picnics, bike-riding? Has Mom suggested any, or is she waiting for the child to request it?
I sometimes find myself worrying about the amount of TV our boys watch during the colder, darker months when we don't get out every day, but I've come to think of it as a seasonal thing. Now that warmer days are here, we're generally out of the house (almost exclusively outdoors at that) 7 - 10 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week.
Engage him in something together. I also liked your comment that by not inviting him to watch TV with her, she's made it his activity alone, not something to be shared.
gotta go -- Dan wants to play.
Sylvia
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
> -=-I have told both of them how much I love them, wanted to havethem, want to
> spend time with them, etc. Sometimes I feel like I'm coercingthem. . .-=-
It is hard to "strew yourself" and say hey, I'm available, want to play
and hear "no, I'd rather watch tv." But if you're letting them choose
what to do, that's going to happen sometimes. Smile, nod and vent about
it out of their hearing! If you're frustrated about having to stay home
with them, make an effort to get out on weekends or whenever you have
someone else they can stay with. See if there's a way you can find joy
in their choices. Does it make you happy that they are free to choose?
Can you now do something you want to do like learn to play an
instrument or read books or garden or exercise? Or just sit still? (I
have 3 kids under 5, so I'm seeing lots of joy in the theoretical idea
of having a little time to oneself. <g>)
I would suggest not looking at how many months they may deschool for,
or any other measure of how "well" they are unschooling. If you need to
look for progress--and that's a big if--look for it in yourself. With
tv, you've stopped turning it off, but still are wanting to control it.
I did the same with food: said yes always to candy and they just kept
eating. Wondered if I really could have candy in the house without it
all getting sucked down in a day. Finally I realized I'd skipped a step-
-despite having read about it 1000 times. I wasn't leaving the candy
where they could reach it. I was getting it for them, but that involved
sighing, offering them other foods or making them wait a minute til I
finished whatever I was doing, blah blah blah. Then they figured out
they could drag a chair over and get it themselves and within a week
they were eating less candy.
It's even better if you don't look anywhere for "progress" but try to
live in the moment and enjoy yourself. I'm still working on that...
Breathing deeply,
aj
[email protected]
It is hard to "strew yourself"
-----------
Don't do that! That's what flying monkeys did to the scarecrow in Wizard of
Oz, didn't they? They strewed him all OVER the place.
Don't strew yourself. <g>
It's a useful concept for discussing unschooling, but it's not a made up
word. We can use it well. It means to spread or scatter. I'm scattered enough
mentally without strewing myself over otherwise. <G>
-=-I would suggest not looking at how many months they may deschool for,
or any other measure of how "well" they are unschooling. If you need to
look for progress--and that's a big if--look for it in yourself.-=-
That's an excellent point.
-=-It's even better if you don't look anywhere for "progress" but try to
live in the moment and enjoy yourself. I'm still working on that...=-
It is better, but most people want something cling to, something like
evidence or proof, and so deschooling and "timers" (in the form of not getting
schooly until a after a certain time has passed, after which time we all hope the
urge to get schooly will have passed) are helpful to new and potential
unschoolers.
Not everyone who starts deschooling can finish.
Not everyone who goes to LLL nurses very long.
Not everyone who goes to an AA meeting quits drinking.
Not everyone who goes to Weight Watchers loses weight.
Not everyone who buys a piano learns to play it.
This is not an easy thing we're doing. It's not easy to do and not easy to
explain. I was reading The Old Schoolhouse (conservative Christian
homeschooling magazine) and THAT is something easy (in the way of needing little
explanation or difficulty of understanding). You buy a curriculum because God
wants you to (writing a check or using a charge card is easy), and then you do
lessons if it's a school day, and you don't if it's not. No messy thinking
required.
But wait! Someone's suggesting unit studies. That would be a little more
work for the parents (though they can buy "units") but it says "Through the
unit style approach, more education can be accomplished in less time."
How much less time should we dedicate to our kids?
How much more learning can there be than all they take in living a busy life?
(Oh wait. He said "education," that thing others do when they try to insert
facts and ideas into other people. Never mind. I don't have time to do
that, nor the heart to do that in the way "educators" usually mean.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----------
Don't do that! That's what flying monkeys did to the scarecrow in Wizard of
Oz, didn't they? They strewed him all OVER the place.
Don't strew yourself. <g>
It's a useful concept for discussing unschooling, but it's not a made up
word. We can use it well. It means to spread or scatter. I'm scattered enough
mentally without strewing myself over otherwise. <G>
-=-I would suggest not looking at how many months they may deschool for,
or any other measure of how "well" they are unschooling. If you need to
look for progress--and that's a big if--look for it in yourself.-=-
That's an excellent point.
-=-It's even better if you don't look anywhere for "progress" but try to
live in the moment and enjoy yourself. I'm still working on that...=-
It is better, but most people want something cling to, something like
evidence or proof, and so deschooling and "timers" (in the form of not getting
schooly until a after a certain time has passed, after which time we all hope the
urge to get schooly will have passed) are helpful to new and potential
unschoolers.
Not everyone who starts deschooling can finish.
Not everyone who goes to LLL nurses very long.
Not everyone who goes to an AA meeting quits drinking.
Not everyone who goes to Weight Watchers loses weight.
Not everyone who buys a piano learns to play it.
This is not an easy thing we're doing. It's not easy to do and not easy to
explain. I was reading The Old Schoolhouse (conservative Christian
homeschooling magazine) and THAT is something easy (in the way of needing little
explanation or difficulty of understanding). You buy a curriculum because God
wants you to (writing a check or using a charge card is easy), and then you do
lessons if it's a school day, and you don't if it's not. No messy thinking
required.
But wait! Someone's suggesting unit studies. That would be a little more
work for the parents (though they can buy "units") but it says "Through the
unit style approach, more education can be accomplished in less time."
How much less time should we dedicate to our kids?
How much more learning can there be than all they take in living a busy life?
(Oh wait. He said "education," that thing others do when they try to insert
facts and ideas into other people. Never mind. I don't have time to do
that, nor the heart to do that in the way "educators" usually mean.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my3sonsinva
"more input on TV question, please"
Letting go of control of your tv is hard. EVERYONE says you should
control how much your child watches. Especially homeschoolers and
even a lot of unschoolers. I have noticed through the years that the
kids that have limited or no tv aren't any nicer, aren't better
behaved, aren't less violent and have even taught my boys words
they've never heard before. I joke that if my kids taught others new
words I could blame the tv, who do they have to blame? tee hee.
These kids are probably acting out because they have no control of
anything going on in their lives. I've had parents with younger
children ask me advice on discipline problems. I honestly haven't had
to deal with half the problems they have. And I get nothing but
compliments on my teenager. It's SO awesome since I had to deal with
so much criticism for years on most of my parenting choices.
Blessings,
Barb
Letting go of control of your tv is hard. EVERYONE says you should
control how much your child watches. Especially homeschoolers and
even a lot of unschoolers. I have noticed through the years that the
kids that have limited or no tv aren't any nicer, aren't better
behaved, aren't less violent and have even taught my boys words
they've never heard before. I joke that if my kids taught others new
words I could blame the tv, who do they have to blame? tee hee.
These kids are probably acting out because they have no control of
anything going on in their lives. I've had parents with younger
children ask me advice on discipline problems. I honestly haven't had
to deal with half the problems they have. And I get nothing but
compliments on my teenager. It's SO awesome since I had to deal with
so much criticism for years on most of my parenting choices.
Blessings,
Barb
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/2005 5:44:02 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
Do you have a good VCR or TIVO or a way to record their favorite shows so
they won't mind being gone? Maybe they have a genetically-gained need to
control, and the ability to record up some good stuff would keep them from
wanting
to watch as much as they could, too.
One thing you might consider is if it is a show that is a documentary or
historical, if you record several episodes on 1 tape. Than, spend a day
watching the entire tape's worth and make a party of it. This is what I did when we
had a tv. We now do not have a tv, by our own personal choice, and we do
watch videos/dvds over our computer. I think communication with the kids is
the key and once more options are explored, opportunities become unlimited and
the unschooling lifestyle becomes more of an adventure for the entire family
:)
Spc in Mo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
Do you have a good VCR or TIVO or a way to record their favorite shows so
they won't mind being gone? Maybe they have a genetically-gained need to
control, and the ability to record up some good stuff would keep them from
wanting
to watch as much as they could, too.
One thing you might consider is if it is a show that is a documentary or
historical, if you record several episodes on 1 tape. Than, spend a day
watching the entire tape's worth and make a party of it. This is what I did when we
had a tv. We now do not have a tv, by our own personal choice, and we do
watch videos/dvds over our computer. I think communication with the kids is
the key and once more options are explored, opportunities become unlimited and
the unschooling lifestyle becomes more of an adventure for the entire family
:)
Spc in Mo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler Waynforth
Sandra once upon a time wrote that life is about priorities. I can't
remember what it was in reference to, maybe somebody worrying about
McDonalds and not allowing her/his child(ren) to support a
multi-national conglomerate being more important than supporting
her/his families ability to make choices.
I think that with all of these things it is about priorities. If your
priority is no or little television than allowing freedom of access to
television isn't going to result in no or little television. My son
Simon (8), who has had freedom of access to television since he was 5
and for whom we controlled it very little before that can and does
watch television for hours. However, of late, he has been turning it
off and walking away from it far more than ever before. If someone
were to walk into our home who believed that television was a
corrupting influence we are clearly corrupted.
There is free access to food in our house. There are two bowlfuls of
starburst fruit chews on the kitchen table and carrots and celery cut
up and floating in water in the fridge as per my Grandmother; there
are packets of crisps in the cupboard with weetabix cereal and muesli
cereal and whatever other kind of cereal; there is dried squid and
sheets of nori and crackers and peanut butter and chocolate chip
oatmeal cookies and ice cream and, and, and All things get eaten.
At the moment Linnaea (5) and Simon are sitting in front of the
television watching a video of The Flintstones eating spaghetti
noodles and raw carrots and drinking kool-aid (imported) and talking
to me about what "balance" means, based I would guess on the balance
of a sword in "Pirates of the Caribbean". If your priority is not
letting your children have certain "e numbers" in food or to be
vegetarian or vegan or to eat only things without additives, than
allowing food choice isn't necessarily going to end up with a family
that eats the way you want them to eat. It might, but it probably
won't.
If you choose to follow the unschooling lifestyle, as opposed to just
being an unschooling homeschooler, than you have to accept that these
people who are your children will enjoy things in ways you may not
like. Yesterday Simon ate 3 doughnuts. He had a couple of bites of
egg fried rice and a couple of bites of bagel with cream cheese, but
really, he only ate 3 doughnuts. It drove me mad. But David
(husband) said sometimes you only want three doughnuts. Tomorrow
he'll eat other things. Do you think he is going to starve himself?
And he was right. Today he is eating other things and yesterday he
only wanted 3 doughnuts. And the coercion I attempted was
short-sighted and mean.
If your priority is perfectly behaved children who read at an early
age and who impress your friends and family with their knowledge and
deportment, you may find unschooling a hard path to follow (not that
any other method will necessarily get you these things). If your
priority is to respect your children as people and to help them to
explore the world in an engaging way than it is also important to
understand that as romantic as these things sound it is hard and on
bad days it is easy to note that they only ate 3 doughnuts or that
every time you go to the store they have to buy something or that they
are watching loads of television. It all depends on your priorities.
Schuyler
remember what it was in reference to, maybe somebody worrying about
McDonalds and not allowing her/his child(ren) to support a
multi-national conglomerate being more important than supporting
her/his families ability to make choices.
I think that with all of these things it is about priorities. If your
priority is no or little television than allowing freedom of access to
television isn't going to result in no or little television. My son
Simon (8), who has had freedom of access to television since he was 5
and for whom we controlled it very little before that can and does
watch television for hours. However, of late, he has been turning it
off and walking away from it far more than ever before. If someone
were to walk into our home who believed that television was a
corrupting influence we are clearly corrupted.
There is free access to food in our house. There are two bowlfuls of
starburst fruit chews on the kitchen table and carrots and celery cut
up and floating in water in the fridge as per my Grandmother; there
are packets of crisps in the cupboard with weetabix cereal and muesli
cereal and whatever other kind of cereal; there is dried squid and
sheets of nori and crackers and peanut butter and chocolate chip
oatmeal cookies and ice cream and, and, and All things get eaten.
At the moment Linnaea (5) and Simon are sitting in front of the
television watching a video of The Flintstones eating spaghetti
noodles and raw carrots and drinking kool-aid (imported) and talking
to me about what "balance" means, based I would guess on the balance
of a sword in "Pirates of the Caribbean". If your priority is not
letting your children have certain "e numbers" in food or to be
vegetarian or vegan or to eat only things without additives, than
allowing food choice isn't necessarily going to end up with a family
that eats the way you want them to eat. It might, but it probably
won't.
If you choose to follow the unschooling lifestyle, as opposed to just
being an unschooling homeschooler, than you have to accept that these
people who are your children will enjoy things in ways you may not
like. Yesterday Simon ate 3 doughnuts. He had a couple of bites of
egg fried rice and a couple of bites of bagel with cream cheese, but
really, he only ate 3 doughnuts. It drove me mad. But David
(husband) said sometimes you only want three doughnuts. Tomorrow
he'll eat other things. Do you think he is going to starve himself?
And he was right. Today he is eating other things and yesterday he
only wanted 3 doughnuts. And the coercion I attempted was
short-sighted and mean.
If your priority is perfectly behaved children who read at an early
age and who impress your friends and family with their knowledge and
deportment, you may find unschooling a hard path to follow (not that
any other method will necessarily get you these things). If your
priority is to respect your children as people and to help them to
explore the world in an engaging way than it is also important to
understand that as romantic as these things sound it is hard and on
bad days it is easy to note that they only ate 3 doughnuts or that
every time you go to the store they have to buy something or that they
are watching loads of television. It all depends on your priorities.
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> << Since de-ruling, [older of two, a boy] has had periods of
literally 8, 10
> hours a day of
> watching tv, animated cartoons almost exclusively. >>
Elizabeth Hill
My son has become interested in the reality TV shows with Nannies.
Mostly we've been watching Nanny 911.
What strikes me about that show is that it seems so wrong to make kids
that are only two or four (or six) go to bed alone and wailing.
Although the nannies aren't as extreme as Ferber, as they encourage the
parents to sit in the room (silently), they do condemn cosleeping and
praise nighttime self-sufficiency. I don't like seeing my son convinced
that this method "works", as I prefer for kids to be cuddled and
comforted and attached. (I certainly hope that my son raises my
grandchildren with cuddling and without wailing. I don't want him
swallowing the "expertise" of the nannies.)
I did find myself expressing this opinion quite a bit during the first
two shows. Then I checked with my son whether I was annoying him (yes),
and decided that he's heard my main points and now I should pipe down as
much as I can manage.
Anyway, I have been out of the mainstream so long that I was dismayed to
see these kind of "bedtimes", but as foreign as they are to me, I think
they are the norm in this culture. My kid has only slept 9 and 1/2
hours since he was about 2, so putting him to bed early "because he
needs it", never made any kind of sense. And I was never ok with the
idea of him crying himself to sleep.
So I'm just re-acquainting myself with the idea that there can be a
communications gap when we discuss parenting theory online. (Describing
"practices" is less abstract and more clear, usually.) When I write or
read the word "bedtime", I'm thinking about a pleasant attachment
parenting family in which the scenario is "Let's all brush our teeth and
have a story and go to bed." I don't naturally picture toddlers in
distress being sent back to their rooms over and over. But that is what
bedtime means in many households.
Sandra wrote (message boards?) about how going to school breaks bonds
between parents and children. That's certainly true. But I think
following a practice of ignoring a child's cries breaks the habit of
hearing and respecting a child's feelings at an even earlier age. (OK,
yeah, some people never had the habit.) If a parent is non-responsive
to a child's cries at an early age, how sensitive can they possibly be
at later ages to a child's needs, wishes, dreams and fears? And does
the child also become less sensitive to perceiving his own needs --
particularly his unpopular and inconvenient needs?
Betsy
Mostly we've been watching Nanny 911.
What strikes me about that show is that it seems so wrong to make kids
that are only two or four (or six) go to bed alone and wailing.
Although the nannies aren't as extreme as Ferber, as they encourage the
parents to sit in the room (silently), they do condemn cosleeping and
praise nighttime self-sufficiency. I don't like seeing my son convinced
that this method "works", as I prefer for kids to be cuddled and
comforted and attached. (I certainly hope that my son raises my
grandchildren with cuddling and without wailing. I don't want him
swallowing the "expertise" of the nannies.)
I did find myself expressing this opinion quite a bit during the first
two shows. Then I checked with my son whether I was annoying him (yes),
and decided that he's heard my main points and now I should pipe down as
much as I can manage.
Anyway, I have been out of the mainstream so long that I was dismayed to
see these kind of "bedtimes", but as foreign as they are to me, I think
they are the norm in this culture. My kid has only slept 9 and 1/2
hours since he was about 2, so putting him to bed early "because he
needs it", never made any kind of sense. And I was never ok with the
idea of him crying himself to sleep.
So I'm just re-acquainting myself with the idea that there can be a
communications gap when we discuss parenting theory online. (Describing
"practices" is less abstract and more clear, usually.) When I write or
read the word "bedtime", I'm thinking about a pleasant attachment
parenting family in which the scenario is "Let's all brush our teeth and
have a story and go to bed." I don't naturally picture toddlers in
distress being sent back to their rooms over and over. But that is what
bedtime means in many households.
Sandra wrote (message boards?) about how going to school breaks bonds
between parents and children. That's certainly true. But I think
following a practice of ignoring a child's cries breaks the habit of
hearing and respecting a child's feelings at an even earlier age. (OK,
yeah, some people never had the habit.) If a parent is non-responsive
to a child's cries at an early age, how sensitive can they possibly be
at later ages to a child's needs, wishes, dreams and fears? And does
the child also become less sensitive to perceiving his own needs --
particularly his unpopular and inconvenient needs?
Betsy
Abby Aldrich
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
always feel sad for the kids who have to go to bed without cuddling
and comforting, so I'm not worried about them thinking that the
nannies know best. When they say something about it, I say something
like, "a lot of parents do things differently than we do, but our
family likes to cuddle together at bedtime so that's why we do it this
way," and then they usually say something like, "It's too bad for them
that their family doesn't like cuddling." :)
an early age not to go to them with our needs, wishes, dreams, and
fears because we knew they didn't care.
Abby
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
> My son has become interested in the reality TV shows with Nannies.My daughters (both 6) are fascinated by the nanny shows, but they
> Mostly we've been watching Nanny 911.
>
>I don't like seeing my son convinced that this method "works", as I
>prefer for kids to be cuddled and comforted and attached.
always feel sad for the kids who have to go to bed without cuddling
and comforting, so I'm not worried about them thinking that the
nannies know best. When they say something about it, I say something
like, "a lot of parents do things differently than we do, but our
family likes to cuddle together at bedtime so that's why we do it this
way," and then they usually say something like, "It's too bad for them
that their family doesn't like cuddling." :)
>If a parent is non-responsiveMy parents were those kind of parents and my siblings and I learned at
> to a child's cries at an early age, how sensitive can they possibly be
> at later ages to a child's needs, wishes, dreams and fears?
an early age not to go to them with our needs, wishes, dreams, and
fears because we knew they didn't care.
>And does the child also become less sensitive to perceiving his ownThat's true for me.
>needs--particularly his unpopular and inconvenient needs?
Abby
Vesna
Betsy,
Have you asked him about what he finds interesting about the show?
What his take is on how bedtime issues are handled in the show?
Expressed nonjudgmental curiosity about his opinion on the bedtime
thing? (Versus "expressing my opinion quite a bit", which sounds like
lecturing.) That is, open up a discussion. His perspective is sure to
be thought-provoking. Let us know -- I'm curious myself.
Vesna
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
...
Have you asked him about what he finds interesting about the show?
What his take is on how bedtime issues are handled in the show?
Expressed nonjudgmental curiosity about his opinion on the bedtime
thing? (Versus "expressing my opinion quite a bit", which sounds like
lecturing.) That is, open up a discussion. His perspective is sure to
be thought-provoking. Let us know -- I'm curious myself.
Vesna
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
...
> What strikes me about that show is that it seems so wrong to make kids...
> that are only two or four (or six) go to bed alone and wailing.
> I did find myself expressing this opinion quite a bit during the first(yes),
> two shows. Then I checked with my son whether I was annoying him
> and decided that he's heard my main points and now I should pipedown as
> much as I can manage.