Latoya

Wow! It is true about opinions, huh?

Well, where do I start? I hope that I respond to everyone's posts.
Here's they are in no particular order:

Firstly, I'm in to rap/hip-hop, so its not the music, its the idea
that you can get money and cars and the vanity this shows. That
would
be hypocrtical of me to say that (of which I didn't).

Secondly, it was my daughter's idea to want piano lessons. I
remember
and so do some other people; heck, I couldn't believe it myself when
she said it. So, her doing "schooly" things isn't what's impressing
me, its the natural curiosity that makes me sit back and listen and
look at her. I didn't just smack her in to some lessons, definitely
not my style.

James will focus on what he needs to do. What he has to do is
utilize
life and learning in a way that he can understand and like. Upon his
arrival he decided to run away when there were no rules - go out at
your discretion, here's some money, etc. His reason was because we
were too strict on cleaning up. Me referring to him as student is
just
that and nothing more. Hell, I was the one that wanted to get these
boys here so that we can help them and be more involved with helping
them to find a track.

Me referring to James secondly was me trying not to post his name
directly, just because of privacy. In the end that's not necessary
because I've come/plan to come to this group with challenges we're
having regarding learning. Nothing more, really simple.

The year hasn't gotten underway as in this is just April, the 4th
month of the year.

Unfortunately, all James has shown me is he knows how to use his
talents for bad (habitual lying and stealing). When I opened myself
to
him and was ready to go out/stay in and learn, he definitely used
that
to his advantage. I was the new person that didn't really know about
him and I probably wouldn't catch on to that kind of thing. Him and
his brothers have lived with us for almost 3 months now, so maybe
another side will appear. Otherwise, when trying to talk to him he
doesn't appear confident (understandably) and clams up and doesn't
talk at all. Some have asked if he's mentally challenged. The only
person I've heard him talk to is one of his 2 brothers that are here
they are pretty close. His non-verbal interests are obviously ones
that will get him in some deep trouble and we can aide in steering
away from those things and more toward the drumming, rap/hip-hop
which
can be composed and created and sold - things of which we can assist
him with.

I think he should be straightforward and honorable and there is
nothing wrong with that. And, if taking away some "fun" is mean, oh
well, better that than him selling drugs, being on drugs, or in jail
because we didn't discipline/limit instant gratification. He has
admitted he tells grown ups what he thinks they want to hear to my
husband and my dh has tried to explain to him that this does not
make
him look good and that if anything make people not trust you.

I really could give a f*#^ about the grade levels. I hate grades and
the fact that there are grades given. I speak that language but I
don't believe in it. What I do know is that at age 14 (as of
Monday!),
he should be more than a functioning illiterate. Should he start
reading at age 34 or 44?

We're all students of life. I'm definitely a student in this
experience and will continue to be.

Ah, I just found out that he is interested in knitting (Me and my
daughter are currently learning), so we'll try that this week and
next
week.

My friend has suggested that he does have a memory challenge and to
try some other techniques. Sorry to have posted here for this
challenge because I already know he will not be an unschooled child
for at least a year or so. Allowing him to take it upon himself to
be
interested will be us in this same spot next year about this time
and
that is not acceptable and that's the reality. I look forward to
keeping everyone updated on our progress.

What does it mean to be educated? Throughout history many thought
the
world was flat and you'd fall off of it - at one point that was
educated. Still others believe they can visit another country and
force democracy on them and that is being educated.

Sorry I posted on the wrong group for this particular child. Look
forward to other posts about my daughter and James' brother(s).

Phew!

Thanks again,
Latoya in Florida
www.naturalfamilyboutique.com/?Latoya

joy guffey

Just Keep trying dont give up. It is hard and hard to show patience and compassion when it seems
so simple to you and you just dont understand why they just cant get it. Sometimess we all have
to learn the hard way growing up. Hope all goes well for you and your family. Oh yes and by the
way it is true about opionions!!!!!
Best Wishes Joy
--- Latoya <latoyadenise@...> wrote:

>
>
> Wow! It is true about opinions, huh?
>
> Well, where do I start? I hope that I respond to everyone's posts.
> Here's they are in no particular order:
>
> Firstly, I'm in to rap/hip-hop, so its not the music, its the idea
> that you can get money and cars and the vanity this shows. That
> would
> be hypocrtical of me to say that (of which I didn't).
>
> Secondly, it was my daughter's idea to want piano lessons. I
> remember
> and so do some other people; heck, I couldn't believe it myself when
> she said it. So, her doing "schooly" things isn't what's impressing
> me, its the natural curiosity that makes me sit back and listen and
> look at her. I didn't just smack her in to some lessons, definitely
> not my style.
>
> James will focus on what he needs to do. What he has to do is
> utilize
> life and learning in a way that he can understand and like. Upon his
> arrival he decided to run away when there were no rules - go out at
> your discretion, here's some money, etc. His reason was because we
> were too strict on cleaning up. Me referring to him as student is
> just
> that and nothing more. Hell, I was the one that wanted to get these
> boys here so that we can help them and be more involved with helping
> them to find a track.
>
> Me referring to James secondly was me trying not to post his name
> directly, just because of privacy. In the end that's not necessary
> because I've come/plan to come to this group with challenges we're
> having regarding learning. Nothing more, really simple.
>
> The year hasn't gotten underway as in this is just April, the 4th
> month of the year.
>
> Unfortunately, all James has shown me is he knows how to use his
> talents for bad (habitual lying and stealing). When I opened myself
> to
> him and was ready to go out/stay in and learn, he definitely used
> that
> to his advantage. I was the new person that didn't really know about
> him and I probably wouldn't catch on to that kind of thing. Him and
> his brothers have lived with us for almost 3 months now, so maybe
> another side will appear. Otherwise, when trying to talk to him he
> doesn't appear confident (understandably) and clams up and doesn't
> talk at all. Some have asked if he's mentally challenged. The only
> person I've heard him talk to is one of his 2 brothers that are here
> they are pretty close. His non-verbal interests are obviously ones
> that will get him in some deep trouble and we can aide in steering
> away from those things and more toward the drumming, rap/hip-hop
> which
> can be composed and created and sold - things of which we can assist
> him with.
>
> I think he should be straightforward and honorable and there is
> nothing wrong with that. And, if taking away some "fun" is mean, oh
> well, better that than him selling drugs, being on drugs, or in jail
> because we didn't discipline/limit instant gratification. He has
> admitted he tells grown ups what he thinks they want to hear to my
> husband and my dh has tried to explain to him that this does not
> make
> him look good and that if anything make people not trust you.
>
> I really could give a f*#^ about the grade levels. I hate grades and
> the fact that there are grades given. I speak that language but I
> don't believe in it. What I do know is that at age 14 (as of
> Monday!),
> he should be more than a functioning illiterate. Should he start
> reading at age 34 or 44?
>
> We're all students of life. I'm definitely a student in this
> experience and will continue to be.
>
> Ah, I just found out that he is interested in knitting (Me and my
> daughter are currently learning), so we'll try that this week and
> next
> week.
>
> My friend has suggested that he does have a memory challenge and to
> try some other techniques. Sorry to have posted here for this
> challenge because I already know he will not be an unschooled child
> for at least a year or so. Allowing him to take it upon himself to
> be
> interested will be us in this same spot next year about this time
> and
> that is not acceptable and that's the reality. I look forward to
> keeping everyone updated on our progress.
>
> What does it mean to be educated? Throughout history many thought
> the
> world was flat and you'd fall off of it - at one point that was
> educated. Still others believe they can visit another country and
> force democracy on them and that is being educated.
>
> Sorry I posted on the wrong group for this particular child. Look
> forward to other posts about my daughter and James' brother(s).
>
> Phew!
>
> Thanks again,
> Latoya in Florida
> www.naturalfamilyboutique.com/?Latoya
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2005 3:10:53 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
latoyadenise@... writes:

Wow! It is true about opinions, huh?


We're sharing knowledge and experience about unschooling.
I figured you wanted that or you wouldn't have asked this list.

-=-Firstly, I'm in to rap/hip-hop, so its not the music, its the idea
that you can get money and cars and the vanity this shows.-=-

People say the same things about certain college degrees. If he wanted to
study engineering, you'd probably be supportive, but there are lots of people
with engineering degrees who aren't working as engineers, and maybe more with
partial engineering degrees who dropped out.

People CAN get money and cars, can't they? Haven't some gotten money and
cars by being musicians and dancers and composers and organizers of shows, etc.?

-=
Me referring to James secondly was me trying not to post his name
directly, just because of privacy. In the end that's not necessary
because I've come/plan to come to this group with challenges we're
having regarding learning. Nothing more, really simple.-=-

It IS simple, but it's not easy to see learning instead of teaching. Your
questions were about teaching, and others "opinions" were about learning.
_http://sandradodd.com/wordswords_ (http://sandradodd.com/wordswords)

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

Secondly, it was my daughter's idea to want piano lessons. I
remember and so do some other people; heck, I couldn't believe it myself when she said it. So, her doing "schooly" things isn't what's impressing me, its the natural curiosity that makes me sit back and listen and look at her.

****

But you're not impressed with James' natural curiosity about hip-hop and drumming? Or do you consider it to be an unnatural curiosity becuase hip-hop is all about cars and money?

*****
James will focus on what he needs to do. What he has to do is
utilize life and learning in a way that he can understand and like.
****
He'll get to do this only if the adults in his life let him. Otherwise, he's likely to expend all his energy rebelling against those who've deemed his interests and passions unacceptable.

****

The year hasn't gotten underway as in this is just April, the 4th
month of the year.

****
Using this standard, with a lifespan of 80 yrs, the average person's life really isn't 'underway' until he's 25. Why push him so hard now?



I think he should be straightforward and honorable and there is
nothing wrong with that. And, if taking away some "fun" is mean, oh
well, better that than him selling drugs, being on drugs, or in jail

*****

People can't be forced to become honorable or straightforward. You can, perhaps, force them to be compliant, but honor results from feeling respected and trusted. If you can't extend trust to him, he's not likely to develop honor while living in you home.


I already know he will not be an unschooled child
for at least a year or so. Allowing him to take it upon himself to
be interested will be us in this same spot next year about this time and that is not acceptable and that's the reality. I look forward to keeping everyone updated on our progress.

*****

You can predict the future, too? How sad for James that even his rescuer thinks he's incapable of making any progress without coercion.

What is it about James that you've cast him as the one incapable of goodness and progress? You seem to feel his brothers are capable and good, but you've already written James off. Does your paradigm require a bad child to make the others look good?

Sylvia

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2005 9:20:02 AM Mountain Daylight Time, sylgt04@y
ahoo.com writes:


The year hasn't gotten underway as in this is just April, the 4th
month of the year.

****
Using this standard, with a lifespan of 80 yrs, the average person's life
really isn't 'underway' until he's 25. Why push him so hard now?



-----------------------------

This is a good point.

Learning can't see a calendar or read a clock.

And the idea that first children must prepare for entry into the real world
seems very school-style to me. "Do this and we'll declare you to be real."

Treating them as the real, living people they already are makes a huge
difference.
_http://sandradodd.com/respect_ (http://sandradodd.com/respect)

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brandie

>>James will focus on what he needs to do. What he has to >>do is utilize life and learning in a way that he can >>understand and like.

What you wrote here is WONDERFUL -- but this won't happen, because you have decided not to unschool him. What you explained above is unschooling. Is James is not going to be unschooled because you are using that has a form of dicipline for his behaviors that you don't approve of?

>>Ah, I just found out that he is interested in knitting (Me >>and my daughter are currently learning), so we'll try that >>this week and next week.

Next week he might not have an interest. Why can't you do this today or tomorrow?

Brandie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Latoya

Sylvia, I agree with you on the honorable part.

I know what I see in James and I've seen it continuously from my own
background. Drumming, music, it doesn't matter what he's interested
in if he's not confident in his own skills and ability to do those
things. From his posture to him speaking - they have to be built
back up and we believe he lacks these things because he doesn't
read/write/add/subtract/multiply as well or at all. Period.

Yes, I can predict the future: if we don't get it together and push
beyond our limits we can get caught up in to something that we will
regret. So pushing him hard to learn is not the problem.

You have no idea what I have to say about his brothers or my
daughter because I haven't posted about them. Just tidbits about my
daughter. As far as hip hop/money, the lifestyle portrayed isn't one
that is always positive; I don't want him to think that life is
instant gratification and all about money. So, enough on that
subject there's nothing more to be read in to it.

We happen to be discussing James because I posted particularly about
him - the one I'm most concerned about. At the rate James was going,
statistically, black boys ('cause that's the only experience we can
relate to) don't make it to find out about life at 25.

No child has to be the so called bad one. I believe that we react to
our circumstances from the beginning and those reactions breed in to
deeper situations. That's what has happened to James.

I am not a Rescuer of people, but definitely of cats and dogs and
yarn. In this situation only people can rescue themselves.

Latoya
again...



[email protected], Sylvia Toyama <sylgt04@y...>
wrote:
> Secondly, it was my daughter's idea to want piano lessons. I
> remember and so do some other people; heck, I couldn't believe it
myself when she said it. So, her doing "schooly" things isn't what's
impressing me, its the natural curiosity that makes me sit back and
listen and look at her.
>
> ****
>
> But you're not impressed with James' natural curiosity about hip-
hop and drumming? Or do you consider it to be an unnatural
curiosity becuase hip-hop is all about cars and money?
>
> *****
> James will focus on what he needs to do. What he has to do is
> utilize life and learning in a way that he can understand and
like.
> ****
> He'll get to do this only if the adults in his life let him.
Otherwise, he's likely to expend all his energy rebelling against
those who've deemed his interests and passions unacceptable.
>
> ****
>
> The year hasn't gotten underway as in this is just April, the 4th
> month of the year.
>
> ****
> Using this standard, with a lifespan of 80 yrs, the average
person's life really isn't 'underway' until he's 25. Why push him so
hard now?
>
>
>
> I think he should be straightforward and honorable and there is
> nothing wrong with that. And, if taking away some "fun" is mean,
oh
> well, better that than him selling drugs, being on drugs, or in
jail
>
> *****
>
> People can't be forced to become honorable or straightforward.
You can, perhaps, force them to be compliant, but honor results from
feeling respected and trusted. If you can't extend trust to him,
he's not likely to develop honor while living in you home.
>
>
> I already know he will not be an unschooled child
> for at least a year or so. Allowing him to take it upon himself to
> be interested will be us in this same spot next year about this
time and that is not acceptable and that's the reality. I look
forward to keeping everyone updated on our progress.
>
> *****
>
> You can predict the future, too? How sad for James that even his
rescuer thinks he's incapable of making any progress without
coercion.
>
> What is it about James that you've cast him as the one incapable
of goodness and progress? You seem to feel his brothers are capable
and good, but you've already written James off. Does your paradigm
require a bad child to make the others look good?
>
> Sylvia
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Latoya

Sandra, I wasn't referring to learning when I said this. I was
referring to the unacceptable behavior and how at that rate it could
be worse and/or more behavior like this.

If someone treated him as "real" without that entry he'd be in
jail/juvenile center right now for the past actions.

Latoya
otra vez...


--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/22/2005 9:20:02 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
sylgt04@y
> ahoo.com writes:
>
>
> The year hasn't gotten underway as in this is just April, the 4th
> month of the year.
>
> ****
> Using this standard, with a lifespan of 80 yrs, the average
person's life
> really isn't 'underway' until he's 25. Why push him so hard now?
>
>
>
> -----------------------------
>
> This is a good point.
>
> Learning can't see a calendar or read a clock.
>
> And the idea that first children must prepare for entry into the
real world
> seems very school-style to me. "Do this and we'll declare you to
be real."
>
> Treating them as the real, living people they already are makes a
huge
> difference.
> _http://sandradodd.com/respect_ (http://sandradodd.com/respect)
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***Firstly, I'm in to rap/hip-hop, so its not the music, its the idea
that you can get money and cars and the vanity this shows. ***

Do you mean that you believe he is interested in rap because rap videos
show lavish characters and lifestyles and you are afraid or you believe
he will be wrongly motivated by them?

You are concerned for his education because you want him to be more than
a functioning illiterate. To what end?
When he is educated do you expect him to be able to hold down a job so
that he can have some quality of life?
In your opinion does a quality life *not* include money and cars?

First, I think a troubled fourteen year old has every right, and indeed
is demonstrating a healthy human quality when he dreams that his life can
be better. If he can only think of a better life as a life with cars
and money, I would say that is directly because he is not experiencing
personally those things which we all know *really* make life better,
respect, acceptance, love, generosity, kindness. (chocolate)

***James will focus on what he needs to do. ***

Earlier you said he lacks focus. Can you tell us which it is? Do you
mean by the sheer force of your will you will *make* James focus whether
he feels focused or not?

***What he has to do is utilize life and learning in a way that he can
understand and like***

No, he doesn't "have" to. James *could* leave you and never come back.
A young girl here killed herself last year. She was younger than James
and facing many of the same issues as you describe. She didn't "have to"
do anything after that.

Do you mean you would like for James to be able to find a good life?
Does it have to be on your terms only?

***I think he should be straightforward and honorable and there is
nothing wrong with that. ***

People are honorable when they're treated honorably. Who has honored
James? One moment won't be enough to show him the value of honor. It
takes a lifetime. In his fourteen years how many people have honored
him? It can begin with having real consideration for the things he
loves. By helping him do those things and have exposure to those things
and by engaging him about those things.

***And, if taking away some "fun" is mean, oh
well, better that than him selling drugs, being on drugs, or in jail
because we didn't discipline/limit instant gratification. ***

Deprivation doesn't make a person reasonable, it makes them starved and
desperate. Desperate people do desperate things. If his mind is filled
with negativity and hopelessness he will act like a negative and hopeless
person. When he's filled up with positive regard and given hope he will
begin to be a positive and hopeful person. That's the only way it can
happen. His life has to become good and worthwhile right now if you want
to see him find goodness within himself.

I think unschooling could be the most hopeful path for James but you have
to want the most hopeful path for James too. If all these years in
school and all the pushing has not led him to the ability to do academic
things, you might think about whether that approach can lead anywhere
positive. Leave it behind. My son learned to read by doing the things
he loved, not by having reading lessons. Lot's of unschooled kids read
later, and if James can unschool he will not be "behind" he will be right
on schedule for James. He's so young. You have so much time, but if
you waste it by imposing on him all the terrible things his former life
imposed you won't help him.

It's a very good and noble thing that you've taken him and his brothers
and are trying to give them a better life. Take an example from his
past, his schooling, and live a better example. You're posts are filled
with negative things about him and we can understand that he's had a hard
time. Could you write a post about all the positive things you can see
in him? Write about his interest in music - don't post one negative
thing at all - and then let some of the people here expound on ways those
interests of his can become the biggest most positive forces in his
life,(with your help) big enough to replace the negative realities he's
lived with until now. This could be a really healing thing for you,
seeing as you must have and must be facing some really big challenges
now.

Deb L

Gwen McCrea

Latoya,

I think that if you are posting here, it is because there is something
about an unschooling lifestyle/philosophy that resonates with you, and
because you are concerned about the children you are caring for, and
want them to be whole and self-confident.

Precisely because of that, and because of what you've told us about
James, he seems to be a child very much in need of unschooling. He has
only been living with you for 3 months, that's not very long,
considering all the months he's spent in other places, with people who
are not interested in making him whole, but in making him compliant.
While it may be the case that behaving as he's been told to behave
could keep him out of trouble, it is just as likely to backfire. It
sounds to me as though he is resisting all the messages that tell him
he's not good enough, by rebelling, by tuning out, at the same time
that those messages continue to eat away at him.

You mentioned that he chose to run away, even though you and your
husband had given him freedoms, and money. But is it possible that
those freedoms and money were conditional? And even if they weren't,
he hasn't been with you long enough to make him think that your
relationship with him could be any different from his relationships
with other adults. When he said that he took off because you were too
strict about cleaning up, what do you suppose he meant? To some
people, it might seem like a silly reason, but does that stand in for
him saying that he doesn't trust you to care about him, unless he
picks up after himself, that your love is conditional? Might there be
something else in that statement about strict cleaning rules that a 13
year old boy has a hard time articulating?

If he is relating to you and your husband by lying and stealing, its
possible that this is not a reflection on you, or on him, but is a
symptom of the damage that has been done to him in school, and in
other places, because he is a child, because he is black and almost a
man. Bravado, tuning you out, lying and stealing that test your
commitment to him, to me these sound like the actions of a boy trying
desperately to protect himself. Maybe the best question for you is,
how can you help him to a) protect himself from the damage that is
still being done to him, and then b) help him to make himself whole
and confident. It might help to talk to him, without a tone of voice
that says "lecture", about your concerns. Not that you want him to
"stay out of trouble", he's probably heard that one before, but that
you want him to be whole, that you want him to excel, and that you
want him to be self-confident. One of the tricks that has worked very
well for me in relating to my kids (and to all small humans) is
treating them and talking to them as though they were friends, about
whom I care very deeply. With the same tone of respect that I would
use with a friend I was concerned about. I wouldn't tell her what to
do or what not to do, I would tell her how much I care, and why I am
concerned.

He is very capable, right now. He may not read well, but he is able to
get by, this takes a lot of skill. If you convince yourself that he is
capable, this will affect the way you treat him, and he will notice.

In the meantime, you can still strew things in his path that he
*might* find interesting. (Recognizing that he also might not pick
them up, and that's okay). What about hiphop comics like Blokhedz, cds
of rap artists that he hasn't heard before, who are doing innovative
things with rhythym, rhyme, lyrics, social critique. Do you have
percussion instruments in the house, or could you get some?

Best of luck,

Gwen

David & Annelise Pierce

On 4/22/05 12:44 PM, "sandrewmama" <sandrewmama@...> wrote:

Thank you ­ such an amazing point . . . . I love being reminded to focus on
what really matters.

annelise

>
> If someone lacks confidence in himself because he can't
> read/write/add/subtract/multiply it isn't because he can't do those things
> but because the things he CAN do are not valued by the important people in
> his life who he looks to for UNCONDITIONAL love, protection, inspiration and
> approval. Instead of focusing on what he CAN'T do, start with what he CAN
> do. Love him for who he is deep inside. Someone, maybe many, on this list
> have said, "Don't try to fix the child, fix the relationship." Nobody wants
> to be somebodies "project", they just want to be safe, loved and stimulated.
>
> Chris
>
>
> on 4/22/05 11:13 AM, Latoya at latoyadenise@... wrote:
>
> I know what I see in James and I've seen it continuously from my own
> background. Drumming, music, it doesn't matter what he's interested
> in if he's not confident in his own skills and ability to do those
> things. From his posture to him speaking - they have to be built
> back up and we believe he lacks these things because he doesn't
> read/write/add/subtract/multiply as well or at all. Period.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2005 10:33:37 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
latoyadenise@... writes:

. Drumming, music, it doesn't matter what he's interested
in if he's not confident in his own skills and ability to do those
things.


I'm interested in movies and moviemaking, but I have no interest in "doing"
it (making a movie). I love Shakespeare and Shakespeare plays, but I don't
want to act in one.

An interest is a valid interest even without the wish to pursue it as a
personal art. I can appreciate good photography but I have really no interest in
learning how to develop a photograph.

-=-Yes, I can predict the future: if we don't get it together and push
beyond our limits we can get caught up in to something that we will
regret. So pushing him hard to learn is not the problem. -=-

Upon which planet have you not seen this failing again and again, in the
MILLIONS of instances? Kids CAN NOT be pushed beyond their limits. Every
failure in this country probably was pushed in school, pushed by parents, pushed
out and pushed away.

Pushing them hard was the problem.
IS the problem.

-=-You have no idea what I have to say about his brothers or my
daughter because I haven't posted about them. Just tidbits about my
daughter.-=-

The comparisons were clear. You have no idea what you communicated if you
don't think we know ANYTHING about the others or about your attitude toward
James. Every word and phrase you sent communicates more than you intended.

-=- I don't want him to think that life is
instant gratification and all about money. So, enough on that
subject there's nothing more to be read in to it.
=-

Then don't post anymore. If what we're writing is useless to you, and we're
wrong, and there's nothing more to be read into or about it, why post on an
unschooling list? It would be like justifying spanking (repeatedly) on a
non-spanking list.

-=-We happen to be discussing James because I posted particularly about
him - the one I'm most concerned about.-=-

You happen to be discussing James for reasons you seem somewhat unsettled
about.
We are discussing James because your stated plans are more of the same
damage he has already suffered in the past.

-=-I am not a Rescuer of people, but definitely of cats and dogs and
yarn. In this situation only people can rescue themselves.
-=-

How will your own child(ren) rescue themselves if you bring really bad
influences into the house? If he's beyond saving, having him there is a danger.
If he is NOT beyond saving, you might want to consider not going down the
same paths.

Sandra







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2005 11:52:14 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
gwendolin00@... writes:

-=-If he is relating to you and your husband by lying and stealing, its
possible that this is not a reflection on you, or on him, but is a
symptom of the damage that has been done to him in school, and in
other places, because he is a child, because he is black and almost a
man.-=-


My half brother was in our custody when he was that age. He lied and he
stole and he wasn't black. He did have fetal alcohol problems, and a background
of a parent who was neglectful and drinking and lying.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2005 10:59:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:

***What he has to do is utilize life and learning in a way that he can
understand and like***

No, he doesn't "have" to. James *could* leave you and never come back.
A young girl here killed herself last year. She was younger than James
and facing many of the same issues as you describe. She didn't "have to"
do anything after that.



Charles Montoya, 14
Alice Law, 15
My age, when they died, one one year and one the next. I went to both
funerals.
Maybe if their parents had it to do again they would do it differently.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gwen McCrea

I should be more precise. I do not suggest that a child acts out in
this way because he is black, white, green, or any other color.
Rather, I am suggesting that in a racist society, children who are not
white are on the receiving end of subtle and not-so-subtle judgement
about them because of their race. This is damaging, more so if they do
not have safe and supportive people in their lives.

Gwen



--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/22/2005 11:52:14 AM Mountain Daylight Time,


> gwendolin00@h... writes:
>
> -=-If he is relating to you and your husband by lying and stealing, its
> possible that this is not a reflection on you, or on him, but is a
> symptom of the damage that has been done to him in school, and in
> other places, because he is a child, because he is black and almost a
> man.-=-
>
>
> My half brother was in our custody when he was that age. He lied
and he
> stole and he wasn't black. He did have fetal alcohol problems, and
a background
> of a parent who was neglectful and drinking and lying.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gwen McCrea

Gotta clarify again! :)

--- In [email protected], "Gwen McCrea"
<gwendolin00@h...> wrote:
>
>
> I should be more precise. I do not suggest that a child acts out in
> this way because he is black, white, green, or any other color.
> Rather, I am suggesting that in a racist society, children who are
not
> white are on the receiving end of subtle and not-so-subtle judgement
> about them because of their race.



In a racist society (ours) *all* people are judged, in many ways,
based on their race, sometimes in their favor, sometimes not.



>This is damaging, more so if they do
> not have safe and supportive people in their lives."



This is damaging whether people are assumed to be more competent or
less competent because of their race. Speaking for myself, I have long
had a feeling of being unworthy of the praise that comes my way. As an
adult, I have come to realize that this has a lot to do with the
privileges of middle-classness and whiteness that have gotten me some
rewards and regard that were not necessarily deserved.

Of course, it also has something to do with being able to play the
school game, and realizing at some level that doing well in school is
not the same thing as being an accomplished learner.


Gwen


>
> Gwen
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 4/22/2005 11:52:14 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
>
>
> > gwendolin00@h... writes:
> >
> > -=-If he is relating to you and your husband by lying and
stealing, its
> > possible that this is not a reflection on you, or on him, but is
a
> > symptom of the damage that has been done to him in school, and in
> > other places, because he is a child, because he is black and
almost a
> > man.-=-
> >
> >
> > My half brother was in our custody when he was that age. He lied
> and he
> > stole and he wasn't black. He did have fetal alcohol problems,
and
> a background
> > of a parent who was neglectful and drinking and lying.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2005 7:07:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
gwendolin00@... writes:

In a racist society (ours) *all* people are judged, in many ways,
based on their race, sometimes in their favor, sometimes not.



=========

At first, yes.
Then they get a chance to shake hands, to make eye contact or not, to exude
confidence or to indicate years of shaming and failure. They get a chance to
be interesting or to mumble a few words and look away. By that point in the
conversation color's not much of an issue. School and schooling are
creating a lot of eye-contact avoidance, and a lot of hope that a piece of paper
(diploma or degree) will take the place of their being creative and charming.
It doesn't.

Sandra


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