Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] discipline
[email protected]
Sorry, i didn't cut and paste just the pertinent parts, but that would be
time consuming... i really think the reason i c/p the whole thing is so i can
re-read and remember what parts i wanted to respond to... i guess i could
clip the pieces out , but it really does kinda lose content, don't you think?
well, i'm up for suggestions...
<< I am early on my journey as a parent (and in some ways as a
human spirit, but that's another discussion altogether) but my take
on the whole 'discipline' thing is that punishment and rewards (both
equally) do not lead to inner discipline, but instead a reliance on
external pressure to show the way. I know this is true in my case,
having been raised and schooled with the tradititional
punishment/reward system. I am trying to rediscover the single-
minded-ness of purpose and inner strength I am told I possessed
as a young child, before the interference of school with it's 10-out-of-
10's and 'poor' with it's peer-pressure and condescendence. And
so I'm unschooling, hopefully to not inflict those things on my own
children. I said I'd stay off the 'smacking' theme, but there's one
quote I'd like to add, from Adele Faber and Eileen Mazlish and I
forget which book of theirs it's from, or even the exact wording, but
it's something along the lines of how sad it is that even parents
with college-level education, supposedly intelligent people cannot
find a way to deal effectively with their children without using
violence.>>
i think i said the above in one of my e-mails, but maybe not... anyway, this
has always been my opinion too... and having been similarly brought up as the
above poster, it's been quite a challenge for me through the years... i read
faber and mazlish's how to listen talk book before my son was born... it made
so much sense and i vowed to commit to it... and have mostly through their
lives so far with the occasional slip-up... and it's hard... really hard,
imo... as they get beyond the 7-8 year mark...
<< I don't use time-out or any other such form of punishment. I
wouldn't remove 'privileges' (what do people regard as privileges,
anyhow? This is a serious question, btw, I've never quite
understood this term) unless they were directly involved in
whatever, so that the 'removal' was a direct consecquence of the
action, like when the kids wouldn't tidy up their stuff, so they put it
in bin-bags and I said it had gone to the dustbin-dragon.>>
we do that with our daughter... but it really doesn't work... she's 11, and
has had probably 30 brown paper bags of her stuff in the basement... that she
never missed...lol... she is a kid who works with what she has and never
complains... so now i've tried a new approach... i'll let you know if it
works... i learned about it in Ed Psyche this year... get this, i go into her
bedroom when she's in there and exclaim,"my goodness, abby, you are such a
neat child... i'm so happy to see how organized you are ... and i'm impressed
with how you stay with it all the time... she thinks i'm being sarcastic and
gets mad sometimes... now she's at the point where she laughs about it...
according to my prof. and the book, there's a good chance she will eventually
live up to my "accusations"... it sure feels better than screaming, yelling,
punishing and even taking her stuff away... but it's hard to live with the
filth, i admit... we take away privileges when... well, let's see... it's
usually for a pretty big infraction... like when my 14 year old went to a
friend's house after school and didn't tell me or the school... the school
assumed he got on the bus... they found out... he was given detentions ... i
asked him what he thought i should do about it... and we decided on loss of
phone privileges for a week(a very big deal to him)... both my kids lose
privileges for chronic mouthing off, lying, not doing what they're told like
the 3rd time... but they know when they do it what the consequence is... i've
even been asked by my daughter what the consequence would be if she called me
a "bitch." lol... she wanted to know if it was worth the joy i suppose...
<< That's a
direct consequence. and they chose to put their stuff in the
rubbish. And I don't use star-charts or anything like that either. If
anyone's interested in a good book on the subject of training, I
particularly like Don't Shoot the Dog, by Karen Pryor (I think) I got
it from my local LLL group library.
punisments don't work and like you said, they transfer intrinsic motivation
to extrinsic... that's one of the main reasons my daughter's going to
homeschool next year... wayyyyy too much of her motivation is extrinsic...
Jeanne
<A HREF="http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player815">Join Care2.com's
Race for the Rain Forest!</A>
time consuming... i really think the reason i c/p the whole thing is so i can
re-read and remember what parts i wanted to respond to... i guess i could
clip the pieces out , but it really does kinda lose content, don't you think?
well, i'm up for suggestions...
<< I am early on my journey as a parent (and in some ways as a
human spirit, but that's another discussion altogether) but my take
on the whole 'discipline' thing is that punishment and rewards (both
equally) do not lead to inner discipline, but instead a reliance on
external pressure to show the way. I know this is true in my case,
having been raised and schooled with the tradititional
punishment/reward system. I am trying to rediscover the single-
minded-ness of purpose and inner strength I am told I possessed
as a young child, before the interference of school with it's 10-out-of-
10's and 'poor' with it's peer-pressure and condescendence. And
so I'm unschooling, hopefully to not inflict those things on my own
children. I said I'd stay off the 'smacking' theme, but there's one
quote I'd like to add, from Adele Faber and Eileen Mazlish and I
forget which book of theirs it's from, or even the exact wording, but
it's something along the lines of how sad it is that even parents
with college-level education, supposedly intelligent people cannot
find a way to deal effectively with their children without using
violence.>>
i think i said the above in one of my e-mails, but maybe not... anyway, this
has always been my opinion too... and having been similarly brought up as the
above poster, it's been quite a challenge for me through the years... i read
faber and mazlish's how to listen talk book before my son was born... it made
so much sense and i vowed to commit to it... and have mostly through their
lives so far with the occasional slip-up... and it's hard... really hard,
imo... as they get beyond the 7-8 year mark...
<< I don't use time-out or any other such form of punishment. I
wouldn't remove 'privileges' (what do people regard as privileges,
anyhow? This is a serious question, btw, I've never quite
understood this term) unless they were directly involved in
whatever, so that the 'removal' was a direct consecquence of the
action, like when the kids wouldn't tidy up their stuff, so they put it
in bin-bags and I said it had gone to the dustbin-dragon.>>
we do that with our daughter... but it really doesn't work... she's 11, and
has had probably 30 brown paper bags of her stuff in the basement... that she
never missed...lol... she is a kid who works with what she has and never
complains... so now i've tried a new approach... i'll let you know if it
works... i learned about it in Ed Psyche this year... get this, i go into her
bedroom when she's in there and exclaim,"my goodness, abby, you are such a
neat child... i'm so happy to see how organized you are ... and i'm impressed
with how you stay with it all the time... she thinks i'm being sarcastic and
gets mad sometimes... now she's at the point where she laughs about it...
according to my prof. and the book, there's a good chance she will eventually
live up to my "accusations"... it sure feels better than screaming, yelling,
punishing and even taking her stuff away... but it's hard to live with the
filth, i admit... we take away privileges when... well, let's see... it's
usually for a pretty big infraction... like when my 14 year old went to a
friend's house after school and didn't tell me or the school... the school
assumed he got on the bus... they found out... he was given detentions ... i
asked him what he thought i should do about it... and we decided on loss of
phone privileges for a week(a very big deal to him)... both my kids lose
privileges for chronic mouthing off, lying, not doing what they're told like
the 3rd time... but they know when they do it what the consequence is... i've
even been asked by my daughter what the consequence would be if she called me
a "bitch." lol... she wanted to know if it was worth the joy i suppose...
<< That's a
direct consequence. and they chose to put their stuff in the
rubbish. And I don't use star-charts or anything like that either. If
anyone's interested in a good book on the subject of training, I
particularly like Don't Shoot the Dog, by Karen Pryor (I think) I got
it from my local LLL group library.
>>i tried the charts when they were little... never worked... rewards and
punisments don't work and like you said, they transfer intrinsic motivation
to extrinsic... that's one of the main reasons my daughter's going to
homeschool next year... wayyyyy too much of her motivation is extrinsic...
Jeanne
<A HREF="http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player815">Join Care2.com's
Race for the Rain Forest!</A>
Tracy Oldfield
On 2 Jul 2000, at 13:15, Whyner@... wrote:
Sorry, i didn't cut and paste just the pertinent parts,
but that would be
time consuming... i really think the reason i c/p the
whole thing is so i can
re-read and remember what parts i wanted to respond
to... i guess i could
clip the pieces out , but it really does kinda lose
content, don't you think?
well, i'm up for suggestions...
Perhaps if you write what you mean to, then clip the
bits that aren't relevant? quite often I do it like
that, though I tend to just run off at the fingers, so
I lose track of what I'm replying to anyhow... I know
what you mean about speed, but then again, the poor
souls on digest (if there are any, seeing as I was the
only one to complain about it) don't want to spend time
re-reading stuff they've just read.
So what do you regard as 'phone privileges?' Perhaps
it because my kids aren't that age, or perhaps because
I'm English and things just aren't called the same, but
I just don't get it.
Tracy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/2/00 1:53:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< So what do you regard as 'phone privileges?' Perhaps
it because my kids aren't that age, or perhaps because
I'm English and things just aren't called the same, but
I just don't get it.
Tracy >>
losing phone privileges for my 14 year old means no phone or computer for a
designated time period unless directly related to something other than
socializing... like research or e-bay... he does e-bay stuff... the longest
he ever lost them for was a week... mostly, we'll cut down his phone
privileges from 1 hour a night(after homework) to 1/2 hour... or something
like that... often we let him decide...
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< So what do you regard as 'phone privileges?' Perhaps
it because my kids aren't that age, or perhaps because
I'm English and things just aren't called the same, but
I just don't get it.
Tracy >>
losing phone privileges for my 14 year old means no phone or computer for a
designated time period unless directly related to something other than
socializing... like research or e-bay... he does e-bay stuff... the longest
he ever lost them for was a week... mostly, we'll cut down his phone
privileges from 1 hour a night(after homework) to 1/2 hour... or something
like that... often we let him decide...
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/2/00 2:24:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kworthen@... writes:
<< (after homework)
does he go to school or is this homework you assign? >>
he goes to school... was homeschooled for 2 years ... 1st and 2nd... public
since
kworthen@... writes:
<< (after homework)
does he go to school or is this homework you assign? >>
he goes to school... was homeschooled for 2 years ... 1st and 2nd... public
since
Tracy Oldfield
That sounds like a good set-up, that he decided what the penalty is
for whatever he's done. I don't think I would be comfortable with
this, though as it's not a direct consequence of whatever has been
done. I'd love to live in a society like Iain Banks' Culture, where
there's little point in committing crimes, because a) everyone has
their basic needs fulfilled (and plenty of the not-so-basic ones) and
b) there are no 'punishments,' other than the attitude of one's
peers, ie, one would not be spoken to, so there's no attention
factor to speak of. Of course this is Sci-Fi at it's wildest, though
apparently (I don't know cos I ain't read the other) less wierd than
his 'normal' fiction...
Tracy
mostly, we'll cut down his phone
for whatever he's done. I don't think I would be comfortable with
this, though as it's not a direct consequence of whatever has been
done. I'd love to live in a society like Iain Banks' Culture, where
there's little point in committing crimes, because a) everyone has
their basic needs fulfilled (and plenty of the not-so-basic ones) and
b) there are no 'punishments,' other than the attitude of one's
peers, ie, one would not be spoken to, so there's no attention
factor to speak of. Of course this is Sci-Fi at it's wildest, though
apparently (I don't know cos I ain't read the other) less wierd than
his 'normal' fiction...
Tracy
mostly, we'll cut down his phone
> privileges from 1 hour a nightto 1/2 hour... orsomething
> like that... often we let him decide...
>
Amy
(after homework)
does he go to school or is this homework you assign?
does he go to school or is this homework you assign?
----- Original Message -----
From: <Whyner@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] discipline
> In a message dated 7/2/00 1:53:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> tracy.oldfield@... writes:
>
> << So what do you regard as 'phone privileges?' Perhaps
> it because my kids aren't that age, or perhaps because
> I'm English and things just aren't called the same, but
> I just don't get it.
>
> Tracy >>
>
> losing phone privileges for my 14 year old means no phone or computer for
a
> designated time period unless directly related to something other than
> socializing... like research or e-bay... he does e-bay stuff... the
longest
> he ever lost them for was a week... mostly, we'll cut down his phone
> privileges from 1 hour a nightto 1/2 hour... or something
> like that... often we let him decide...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6137/14/_/448294/_/962561638/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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>
>
Amy
ok i was just curious. how many do you hs?
----- Original Message -----
From: <Whyner@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] discipline
> In a message dated 7/2/00 2:24:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> kworthen@... writes:
>
> << (after homework)
>
> does he go to school or is this homework you assign? >>
>
> he goes to school... was homeschooled for 2 years ... 1st and 2nd...
public
> since
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6137/14/_/448294/_/962563393/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/2/00 3:56:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< I don't think I would be comfortable with
this, though as it's not a direct consequence of whatever has been
done. >>
so what do you do instead... i'm VERY open to other ideas...
<< I'd love to live in a society like Iain Banks' Culture, where
there's little point in committing crimes, because a) everyone has
their basic needs fulfilled (and plenty of the not-so-basic ones) and
b) there are no 'punishments,' other than the attitude of one's
peers, ie, one would not be spoken to, so there's no attention
factor to speak of.>>
hmmm interesting... but it sounds a little like "shunning" and seems like
seeing/feeling others' attitudes when not being spoken to(being shunned)
would be a huge attention factor...
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< I don't think I would be comfortable with
this, though as it's not a direct consequence of whatever has been
done. >>
so what do you do instead... i'm VERY open to other ideas...
<< I'd love to live in a society like Iain Banks' Culture, where
there's little point in committing crimes, because a) everyone has
their basic needs fulfilled (and plenty of the not-so-basic ones) and
b) there are no 'punishments,' other than the attitude of one's
peers, ie, one would not be spoken to, so there's no attention
factor to speak of.>>
hmmm interesting... but it sounds a little like "shunning" and seems like
seeing/feeling others' attitudes when not being spoken to(being shunned)
would be a huge attention factor...
Tracy Oldfield
What I meant was that the person 'shunned' would not gain
attention by doing whatever they'd done. Also, the 'shunning'
would not be organised, just an individual judgment of the
individual 'shunner.' You'd have to read it to know what I mean I
think <g>
I try not to 'punish' (withdrawal of privilege, as it's neither an
immediate reinforcement or a direct consequence seems like a
punishment to me) so I'd play it by ear, reacting to whatever the
situation in front of me was. In theory, of course!
Tracy
attention by doing whatever they'd done. Also, the 'shunning'
would not be organised, just an individual judgment of the
individual 'shunner.' You'd have to read it to know what I mean I
think <g>
I try not to 'punish' (withdrawal of privilege, as it's neither an
immediate reinforcement or a direct consequence seems like a
punishment to me) so I'd play it by ear, reacting to whatever the
situation in front of me was. In theory, of course!
Tracy
On 3 Jul 2000, at 12:27, Whyner@... wrote:
so what do you do instead... i'm VERY open to other
ideas...
hmmm interesting... but it sounds a little like
"shunning" and seems like
seeing/feeling others' attitudes when not being spoken
to(being shunned)
would be a huge attention factor...
susan wilson
well i've been thinking about this and didn't know where to start so
i asked rene', my 4 + yos, what he thought about discipline and he
said 'oh i like that' so i asked him what he thought about punishment
and he bit his fingers and said 'eee i don't like that' so i asked
him what was discipline and he said 'it's right and good because it
isn't a lie' then he left the room. so i guess that's a good focus to
have when disciplining a child - no lies.
i would start by saying we involve rene' in all decision. this is
because i believe in equality - no hierarchy. i believe in voluntary
involvement hence we have no chores list but things get done and if
they don't we don't sweat it. i believe that discipline must have
some meaning in the child's life so that it can be internalized or
it's an act of power and control leaving the child w/ the feeling of
oppression and invalidation i.e. anger. i'm big on talking and
explaining why doing something like yard work or washing dishes is
important and he seem quiet willing to participate because he knows he
can start and stop of his own free will. my intent is to create an
atmosphere of free will and cooperation. though we do not rely on his
labor<g> as far as privileges go i don't know what this means. it is
my belief that we all share the house and most (not all) things in it,
making his use of things his right not a privilege. time-outs are
contrary to my personal philosophy because it foster separation when i
want to foster relationship.
so now for the reality:) does he drive me nuts - daily <G> but that
seems to be diminishing and being that he's not yet 5 this is a good
sign for things to come (the teenage years:) so when he does
something which he knows is rude or deliberately done to irritate me
(which he takes great pleasure in:) i began by tell him why i was
frustrated w/ him and he would say he's sorry (which i think he's
beginning to see has meaning beyond the words:) now we laugh a lot at
the weird things he does then it dawns on him his words were rude and
he points it out himself and apologies. this does not get immediate
change of behavior far from it but he's beginning to get the picture.
what i'm trying to do is develop w/in him a compassion for others as
well as himself w/out fostering too much self-consciousness.
there are some issue which i believe require a firm stand. these are
all in the realm of safety. so in areas like brushing teeth, crossing
the road, crowds, power tools..... i simply 'lay down the law' so to
speak and explain why it is important to follow the rules. now given
the nature of 2-5 yo's, who love to practice their autonomy, this
doesn't happen smoothly but i remain consistent e.g. brushing teeth
was something he didn't like being forced to do but we just kept
telling him why it was necessary and that there was no negotiating
this point and now he remind us that his teeth need to be brushed.
this is true of the other area as well. i think he has learned to
respect my intentions because i've shown him time and again that i
always have his best interest at heart (except for coffee in the
morning when it's thad's & my time <g> but normally he just sleeps
through this:)
-susan,
austin,tx
i asked rene', my 4 + yos, what he thought about discipline and he
said 'oh i like that' so i asked him what he thought about punishment
and he bit his fingers and said 'eee i don't like that' so i asked
him what was discipline and he said 'it's right and good because it
isn't a lie' then he left the room. so i guess that's a good focus to
have when disciplining a child - no lies.
i would start by saying we involve rene' in all decision. this is
because i believe in equality - no hierarchy. i believe in voluntary
involvement hence we have no chores list but things get done and if
they don't we don't sweat it. i believe that discipline must have
some meaning in the child's life so that it can be internalized or
it's an act of power and control leaving the child w/ the feeling of
oppression and invalidation i.e. anger. i'm big on talking and
explaining why doing something like yard work or washing dishes is
important and he seem quiet willing to participate because he knows he
can start and stop of his own free will. my intent is to create an
atmosphere of free will and cooperation. though we do not rely on his
labor<g> as far as privileges go i don't know what this means. it is
my belief that we all share the house and most (not all) things in it,
making his use of things his right not a privilege. time-outs are
contrary to my personal philosophy because it foster separation when i
want to foster relationship.
so now for the reality:) does he drive me nuts - daily <G> but that
seems to be diminishing and being that he's not yet 5 this is a good
sign for things to come (the teenage years:) so when he does
something which he knows is rude or deliberately done to irritate me
(which he takes great pleasure in:) i began by tell him why i was
frustrated w/ him and he would say he's sorry (which i think he's
beginning to see has meaning beyond the words:) now we laugh a lot at
the weird things he does then it dawns on him his words were rude and
he points it out himself and apologies. this does not get immediate
change of behavior far from it but he's beginning to get the picture.
what i'm trying to do is develop w/in him a compassion for others as
well as himself w/out fostering too much self-consciousness.
there are some issue which i believe require a firm stand. these are
all in the realm of safety. so in areas like brushing teeth, crossing
the road, crowds, power tools..... i simply 'lay down the law' so to
speak and explain why it is important to follow the rules. now given
the nature of 2-5 yo's, who love to practice their autonomy, this
doesn't happen smoothly but i remain consistent e.g. brushing teeth
was something he didn't like being forced to do but we just kept
telling him why it was necessary and that there was no negotiating
this point and now he remind us that his teeth need to be brushed.
this is true of the other area as well. i think he has learned to
respect my intentions because i've shown him time and again that i
always have his best interest at heart (except for coffee in the
morning when it's thad's & my time <g> but normally he just sleeps
through this:)
-susan,
austin,tx
Tracy Oldfield
Once again, susan, I am so impressed with you and your outlook
on sharing your life with a child <g> I hope Rene understands
how darn lucky he is (maybe not now, but later.)
Tracy
on sharing your life with a child <g> I hope Rene understands
how darn lucky he is (maybe not now, but later.)
Tracy
On 3 Jul 2000, at 17:51, susan wilson wrote:
well i've been thinking about this and didn't know
where to start so
i asked rene', my 4 + yos, what he thought about
discipline and he
said 'oh i like that' so i asked him what he thought
about punishment
and he bit his fingers and said 'eee i don't like
that' so i asked
him what was discipline and he said 'it's right and
good because it
isn't a lie' then he left the room. so i guess that's
a good focus to
have when disciplining a child - no lies.
susan wilson
> I hope Rene understandshere's an interesting rene' story: difficulties w/ my parents came to
> how darn lucky he is (maybe not now, but later.)
> Tracy
a head on this past mother's day. there had been a number of phone
calls which were upsetting and given that our house is only 900 sqft
it was impossible to keep the strife from rene'. well i ended up
unplugging my phone (btw it's still unplugged:) which enabled me to
focus my energies here and bring some peace to our home. well about a
week after i unplugged the phone rene' said to me 'you know mom if i
had parents like yours i would cry all the time' it was very touching
so i told just be happy you don't and it made me happy to be able to
say that to him. both rene' and i know i make mistakes on a regular
basis but i never wish for a different life and this is something i
hope to instill inhim. i'm sorry my mother never found the joy of
parenting and having a family and i do believe it is easy to lose it
in all the 'madness' but what a great lose it is. i would just
recommend that people choice relationship over principle.
-susan
austin,tx
Tracy Oldfield
Well, all I can say is 'WOW!'
Tracy
Tracy
On 3 Jul 2000, at 18:58, susan wilson wrote:
well about a
week after i unplugged the phone rene' said to me 'you
know mom if i
had parents like yours i would cry all the time' it
was very touching
so i told just be happy you don't and it made me happy
to be able to
say that to him. both rene' and i know i make
mistakes on a regular
basis but i never wish for a different life and this is
something i
hope to instill inhim. i'm sorry my mother never
found the joy of
parenting and having a family and i do believe it is
easy to lose it
in all the 'madness' but what a great lose it is. i
would just
recommend that people choice relationship over
principle.
-susan
austin,tx
[email protected]
Susan,
I have been reading your messages. I am very impressed! I have a very
spirited daughter. As well as both my hubby and I being spirited and brought
up in a non-attachment style parenting. I guess what I am trying to say, is
we were both hit as children, with parents who didn't handle their anger
appropriately. So, we as people and parents are having to learn appropriate
anger managment skills. As we all know, this is not an easy thing to do,
much less doing it while we have children "pushing " and testing the limits.
Julie
I have been reading your messages. I am very impressed! I have a very
spirited daughter. As well as both my hubby and I being spirited and brought
up in a non-attachment style parenting. I guess what I am trying to say, is
we were both hit as children, with parents who didn't handle their anger
appropriately. So, we as people and parents are having to learn appropriate
anger managment skills. As we all know, this is not an easy thing to do,
much less doing it while we have children "pushing " and testing the limits.
Julie
[email protected]
oops, I am learning a lot from you, wonderful ladies.....
Thanks,
Julie
Thanks,
Julie
Tracy Oldfield
Though I wasn't hit, and raised comparatively 'attachment-y' I
know how hard it is to unlearn the behaviours that we grow up
with. Mine stem mostly from school and society, media etc...
'Keep on keeping on,' as someone used to say...
Tracy
know how hard it is to unlearn the behaviours that we grow up
with. Mine stem mostly from school and society, media etc...
'Keep on keeping on,' as someone used to say...
Tracy
On 3 Jul 2000, at 20:03, Jaam1224@... wrote:
Susan,
I have been reading your messages. I am very
impressed! I have a very
spirited daughter. As well as both my hubby and I
being spirited and brought
up in a non-attachment style parenting. I guess what I
am trying to say, is
we were both hit as children, with parents who didn't
handle their anger
appropriately. So, we as people and parents are having
to learn appropriate
anger managment skills. As we all know, this is not an
easy thing to do,
much less doing it while we have children "pushing "
and testing the limits.
Julie
Robin & Beverley Paine
> well i've been thinking about this and didn't know where to start soI like this - we've been focussing on honesty in our lives for about four
>i asked rene', my 4 + yos, what he thought about discipline and he
>said 'oh i like that' so i asked him what he thought about punishment
>and he bit his fingers and said 'eee i don't like that' so i asked
>him what was discipline and he said 'it's right and good because it
>isn't a lie' then he left the room. so i guess that's a good focus to
>have when disciplining a child - no lies.
years. I mean real honesty... no hypocrisy, no 'i didn't mean that'
statements either. You mean what you say in this house, you mean what you
do. If not you fix it. Apologise sincerely and don't do it again.
Honesty is the key to respect, and from there one build's relationships...
it certainly means we question the values we live by, continuously
questioning them and evaluating them. That builds compassion and empathy
like nothing else...
cheers,
Beverley
Check out Joel's HOMESCHOOLING EXPO web page
http://www.dove.net/dosborne/expo
Author "Getting Started with Homeschooling - Practical Considerations" and
"Learning in the Absence of Education - Essays on Homeschooling", both $19
from B Paine, PO Box 371 Yankalilla 5203
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diversity of homeschooling practice in South Australia!
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/3/00 6:49:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
fxfireob@... writes:
<< there are some issue which i believe require a firm stand. these are
all in the realm of safety. >>
well, this is exactly where i've always been ... and all the wonderful ways
you deal with your rene are the same as i did with my children... but things
changed when they got older and saw that lots of kids were "allowed" to do
things that i saw as dangerous... explaining and explaining and explaining, i
hoped they'd understand, but honestly, the older they are, the less they seem
to understand that i'm setting limits because it's my job to keep them
safe... my 14 year old believes he can make all his own decisions and that
they're all good ones... and they don't always fall in line with my idea of
safety... all they see is that they aren't allowed to go to parties without
my talking to the parents... that they aren't allowed to roam the streets
without my knowing who and where exactly they are going... that they aren't
allowed to be alone in the bedroom for 4 hours with a girl... it goes on...
it's hard... sometimes i regret the millions of hours of discussion we had
when they were little... cuz now, they're both lawyers in the making... and
one of them is smarter than i am... lol... my wits are constantly stretched
where he's concerned...
fxfireob@... writes:
<< there are some issue which i believe require a firm stand. these are
all in the realm of safety. >>
well, this is exactly where i've always been ... and all the wonderful ways
you deal with your rene are the same as i did with my children... but things
changed when they got older and saw that lots of kids were "allowed" to do
things that i saw as dangerous... explaining and explaining and explaining, i
hoped they'd understand, but honestly, the older they are, the less they seem
to understand that i'm setting limits because it's my job to keep them
safe... my 14 year old believes he can make all his own decisions and that
they're all good ones... and they don't always fall in line with my idea of
safety... all they see is that they aren't allowed to go to parties without
my talking to the parents... that they aren't allowed to roam the streets
without my knowing who and where exactly they are going... that they aren't
allowed to be alone in the bedroom for 4 hours with a girl... it goes on...
it's hard... sometimes i regret the millions of hours of discussion we had
when they were little... cuz now, they're both lawyers in the making... and
one of them is smarter than i am... lol... my wits are constantly stretched
where he's concerned...
Tracy Oldfield
Sounds like he'll never be short of a few bob, then <g> Or ever
be short-changed. Sounds like they've learned some good
communication, debating and negotioating skills! LOL
Tracy
PS I do occasionally say 'because I said so,' when I get asked
'why' cos there are only so many 'whys' one can take <g> also
there is some authority going on then <bigger grin>
be short-changed. Sounds like they've learned some good
communication, debating and negotioating skills! LOL
Tracy
PS I do occasionally say 'because I said so,' when I get asked
'why' cos there are only so many 'whys' one can take <g> also
there is some authority going on then <bigger grin>
On 4 Jul 2000, at 9:26, Whyner@... wrote:
sometimes i regret the millions of hours of discussion
we had
when they were little... cuz now, they're both lawyers
in the making... and
one of them is smarter than i am... lol... my wits are
constantly stretched
where he's concerned...
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/2000 1:47:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< I do occasionally say 'because I said so,' when I get asked
'why' cos there are only so many 'whys' one can take <g> also
there is some authority going on then <bigger grin> >>
when I get too many of the why questions I turn it around and say to Zak "I
don't know sweetie, why do you think"? and then he uses his imagination and
comes up with some fantastic answers that I say "wow that's really
interesting.."
Dawn F
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< I do occasionally say 'because I said so,' when I get asked
'why' cos there are only so many 'whys' one can take <g> also
there is some authority going on then <bigger grin> >>
when I get too many of the why questions I turn it around and say to Zak "I
don't know sweetie, why do you think"? and then he uses his imagination and
comes up with some fantastic answers that I say "wow that's really
interesting.."
Dawn F
Tracy Oldfield
I tend to do that a little too much. And usually in a slightly
exasperated tone of voice, so taht doesn't help. But I get asked
'why' SOOOOOOO much! Arrrggghhhh! I end up having to
say, 'I like that you ask questions, but we need to concentrate on
'x' now, because...' like getting changed to go home after
swimming, and I'm getting 'why' this and 'why' that, when I need
H to stop talking and start moving!
Tracy
exasperated tone of voice, so taht doesn't help. But I get asked
'why' SOOOOOOO much! Arrrggghhhh! I end up having to
say, 'I like that you ask questions, but we need to concentrate on
'x' now, because...' like getting changed to go home after
swimming, and I'm getting 'why' this and 'why' that, when I need
H to stop talking and start moving!
Tracy
On 4 Jul 2000, at 22:29, NumoAstro@... wrote:
when I get too many of the why questions I turn it
around and say to Zak "I
don't know sweetie, why do you think"? and then he uses
his imagination and
comes up with some fantastic answers that I say "wow
that's really
interesting.."
Dawn F
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/7/2000 2:14:10 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<< So what about my hyperactive son? How do I handle that when it comes to
appropriate behavior? >>
that must be very frustrating for you, especially having another child that
is easy going. Zak is quite hyperactive as well, however that does seem to
have calmed down now that he's approaching 5. I only know what works for us
and being consistent in all that Steve and I do with Zak has been so
important. We've even left the grocery store or toy store or playdates when
Zak's behavior was out of control when he was younger. It's a nuisance for
me, but a good lesson for him. We have rules when we go places (they are
usually safety) such as the grocery store. Just 3, as too many more is too
many to remember. (1) hold onto the cart (2) only pick things off the shelf
that mummy tells you she needs and (3) running away is not ok. I ask him
each time we go into the store what the rules are and he tells me. I tell
him what the consequence will be if he chooses not to listen. He usually
wants a baloon and a do-nut (yuk) so if his behavior is appropriate he gets
them otherwise I pick him up and put him in the cart and shop. At first he
used to scream and I just ignored it and kept shopping (I'm not really
concerned about what the other shoppers think). Now he doesn't do it
anymore. I don't know if it's the consistency or him growing older.
Dawn F
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<< So what about my hyperactive son? How do I handle that when it comes to
appropriate behavior? >>
that must be very frustrating for you, especially having another child that
is easy going. Zak is quite hyperactive as well, however that does seem to
have calmed down now that he's approaching 5. I only know what works for us
and being consistent in all that Steve and I do with Zak has been so
important. We've even left the grocery store or toy store or playdates when
Zak's behavior was out of control when he was younger. It's a nuisance for
me, but a good lesson for him. We have rules when we go places (they are
usually safety) such as the grocery store. Just 3, as too many more is too
many to remember. (1) hold onto the cart (2) only pick things off the shelf
that mummy tells you she needs and (3) running away is not ok. I ask him
each time we go into the store what the rules are and he tells me. I tell
him what the consequence will be if he chooses not to listen. He usually
wants a baloon and a do-nut (yuk) so if his behavior is appropriate he gets
them otherwise I pick him up and put him in the cart and shop. At first he
used to scream and I just ignored it and kept shopping (I'm not really
concerned about what the other shoppers think). Now he doesn't do it
anymore. I don't know if it's the consistency or him growing older.
Dawn F
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
><< So what about my hyperactive son? How do I handle that when it comes toFrustrating is too light a word. I put Thomas in the cart, always, period. With having another child so close in age who just learned to walk well in the last 8 months it is just far too dangerous to be running about chasing Thomas and being preoccupied with his behavior or whereabouts while I have another little one there to be concerned with. If I do have to go to the store by myself with both my little terrorists, than Thomas rides in the seat and Alex rides in the main part of the cart, (because he is less likely to stand up, or to goof around, or not listen to me when he needs to settle down, etc.)
>appropriate behavior? >>
>
>that must be very frustrating for you, especially having another >child that is easy going. .......We have rules when we go places (they are usually safety) such as the grocery store. Just 3, as too >many more is too many to remember. (1) hold onto the cart (2) only >pick things off the shelf that mummy tells you she needs and (3) >running away is not ok........otherwise I pick him up and put him in >the cart and shop.
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Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
Thomas snatches a toy away from another child and the child begins to cry.
I will let him stay in his PJs all day when he resists getting dressed. But when he sees his brother playing outside and he can't go...well that is usually a good motivator for that one.
It is VERY hard not to play favorites when Thomas is having one of his difficult days and it is time to choose who gets to go with Mom or Dad to run an errand, or whatever.
Nanci K.
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>I say, "NO GRABBING!" The grabber never gets the toy. I put my hand >on the toy and try to exert the self control not to grab it myself. >But since the toy is immobilized, it usually is no fun and the >grabber lets go.This is difficult if you are not standing right there over him and can stop the action in the process, which of course is almost never the case.
>I don't change diapers on someone over 18 months that's fighting me.I just can't stand the smell. I will hold him down and do it if I have to. I do not want to give him power over me by being able to manipulate me in that way. When it needs done, I do it. I just hate fighting with him and struggling with him over it.
I will let him stay in his PJs all day when he resists getting dressed. But when he sees his brother playing outside and he can't go...well that is usually a good motivator for that one.
It is VERY hard not to play favorites when Thomas is having one of his difficult days and it is time to choose who gets to go with Mom or Dad to run an errand, or whatever.
>If it's only on his difficult days, not all the time, I wouldn't take him if he's being difficult.Which is like...50 to 75% of the time. Not always, but he cycles through and often that is the case.
>I would tend to remove the aggressor from the action, rather than the victim.I do tend to do that, but if the "action" is playing a make believe game with his brother, and I take brother away and play with him...well then I have removed what Thomas was doing. I have in a sense removed the action from him, rather than him from the action.
>I've also heard that you can get good results by removing both.
>
>:-) Diane
Nanci K.
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Shannon Brophy
Thomas snatches a toy away from another child and the child begins to cry.
toy is immobilized, it usually is no fun and the >grabber lets go.
We have a playgroup of three 3 year olds on two mornings a week.
I think I should put up a sign "model conflict resolution" for myself to
remember. I say "Stop. Let's talk about it. What do we do when 2 people want
to use a toy?" or "How can you work this out?" I try to hav e the kids do
the negotiation with one another. This usually gets the grabber to say "Can
I please use that toy?" We practice ideas for dealing with conflict when not
in dispute so we have the tools for when we are. They slowly are getting
better and better at working things out on their own. As they grow, they can
play more co-operatively and imaginatively.
When they were younger, and fought over a toy, the toy sometimes had to take
a time out when we couldn't come to a resolution.
The laborious process is tedious, but will pay off in the long run.
Shannon
>I say, "NO GRABBING!" The grabber never gets the toy. I put my hand >on thetoy and try to exert the self control not to grab it myself. >But since the
toy is immobilized, it usually is no fun and the >grabber lets go.
We have a playgroup of three 3 year olds on two mornings a week.
I think I should put up a sign "model conflict resolution" for myself to
remember. I say "Stop. Let's talk about it. What do we do when 2 people want
to use a toy?" or "How can you work this out?" I try to hav e the kids do
the negotiation with one another. This usually gets the grabber to say "Can
I please use that toy?" We practice ideas for dealing with conflict when not
in dispute so we have the tools for when we are. They slowly are getting
better and better at working things out on their own. As they grow, they can
play more co-operatively and imaginatively.
When they were younger, and fought over a toy, the toy sometimes had to take
a time out when we couldn't come to a resolution.
The laborious process is tedious, but will pay off in the long run.
Shannon
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/00 6:53:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, shannon@...
writes:
<< The laborious process is tedious, but will pay off in the long run.
keep my eye on the big picture.
Julie
writes:
<< The laborious process is tedious, but will pay off in the long run.
>>I think everything about parenting is this laborious process....I have to
keep my eye on the big picture.
Julie
Tracy Oldfield
nanci, you know, it is allowed to like one child more than the
other. 'Playing favourites' is a hard concept to visualise, cos I
don't know what life is like in your house, you love them both,
uniquely to each child, but it IS hard to like someone who makes
your life harder. I know my kids get treat differently, due greatly
to our early relationships, it's hard to shake off bad birth
experiences and rough early relationships. Heather, who's very
smart and very sensitive, gets the rough end of me sometimes cos
I just don't relate to her as well as Abi, who can be as ornery as
the oneriest thing you can think of, but we had a better beginning.
I was doing some research on co-sleeping (anyone's fav authors
on the subject, I'm open to suggestions...) and I found a great
paragraph on the 'nuturing' site, to the effect of those babies who
are hardest to love probably need it most. Now that's another
thing I need imprinting on my eyeballs <g>
Tracy (who's sensing a slightly 'Blackadder-ish sentence in that
lot above...)
other. 'Playing favourites' is a hard concept to visualise, cos I
don't know what life is like in your house, you love them both,
uniquely to each child, but it IS hard to like someone who makes
your life harder. I know my kids get treat differently, due greatly
to our early relationships, it's hard to shake off bad birth
experiences and rough early relationships. Heather, who's very
smart and very sensitive, gets the rough end of me sometimes cos
I just don't relate to her as well as Abi, who can be as ornery as
the oneriest thing you can think of, but we had a better beginning.
I was doing some research on co-sleeping (anyone's fav authors
on the subject, I'm open to suggestions...) and I found a great
paragraph on the 'nuturing' site, to the effect of those babies who
are hardest to love probably need it most. Now that's another
thing I need imprinting on my eyeballs <g>
Tracy (who's sensing a slightly 'Blackadder-ish sentence in that
lot above...)
On 7 Jul 2000, at 22:39, Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall wrote:
It is VERY hard not to play favorites when Thomas is
having one of his difficult days and it is time to
choose who gets to go with Mom or Dad to run an errand,
or whatever.
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/00 8:09:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< (anyone's fav authors
on the subject, I'm open to suggestions... >>
mine are the Sears, and "Family Bed" is the best!
Julie
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< (anyone's fav authors
on the subject, I'm open to suggestions... >>
mine are the Sears, and "Family Bed" is the best!
Julie
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
>The laborious process is tedious, but will pay off in the long run.I sure hope so. Everyone tells me that my children are charming and wonderful, for toddlers that is. But I get so discouraged and tired. It is hard to see the big picture from so close up, or to remember to be objective when you are so deeply involved every day, without end.
>
>Shannon
Nanci K.
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In a message dated 7/8/00 9:32:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<< I sure hope so. Everyone tells me that my children are charming and
wonderful, for toddlers that is. But I get so discouraged and tired. It is
hard to see the big picture from so close up, or to remember to be objective
when you are so deeply involved every day, without end.
Nanci K.
kids-- gives another perspective from our "day-in-day-out" outlook. We all
know there are positive and negative characteristics about each child, but it
is so refreshing to hear from someone else an unexpected compliment, in
regards to behavior, manners, etc...Kind of gives me a "parental boost". :)
~Karen
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<< I sure hope so. Everyone tells me that my children are charming and
wonderful, for toddlers that is. But I get so discouraged and tired. It is
hard to see the big picture from so close up, or to remember to be objective
when you are so deeply involved every day, without end.
Nanci K.
>>I so agree... it is good for us to hear from others nice comments about our
kids-- gives another perspective from our "day-in-day-out" outlook. We all
know there are positive and negative characteristics about each child, but it
is so refreshing to hear from someone else an unexpected compliment, in
regards to behavior, manners, etc...Kind of gives me a "parental boost". :)
~Karen