telling, explaining, correcting (I am confused)
Millie Rosa
(Sorry about the blank post before)
Okay, please help my understanding. I have seen some folks (RU folks online) say some things that have made me think it is uncool to correct kids' fallacious ideologies or thinking...am I understanding correctly...is that true?
I wouldn't of course ever say to my son "-WRONG-," but is it better to let him persist with his own ideas about things, knowing he will eventually get them straight? Or should I help him when I see him having the wrong ideas about things?
I know I am not his teacher. I also don't like the terms facilitator or guide....I see my role as closer to personal assistant. BUT I am finding myself giving "lessons."
I need to give some concrete examples here. I see him these days working on concepts such as measurements and monetary values. He is measuring all sorts of things w his measuring tape and a ruler that he snaked from my sewing box. I saw him measure a raisin and say "It is 50 miles." ETC. I haven't corrected him on these measurements. He asks me what I am doing when he comes to my table, though, and I always tell him "I am measuring this fabric into 4 inch strips (or 5 inch squares, etc).
BUT I did teach a "lesson" on milage the other day. He sits right in the middle back seat and is forever asking me what various lights, knobs, buttons, gauges are in the car. So when we got in the car I said "Can you see this little button right here?" and showed him the trip odometer. I asked if he wanted to see how far a mile from our driveway was. And then we measured the milage to the library. And then when he saw something on tv where someone said something was 5 feet and he said "5 feet? What has 5 feet?" I told him it was a measurement and got his ruler and -yes- told him there are 12 inches in a foot, and then we measured out 5 feet. Everytime I do something like this I am so conscious of the fact that I am giving a lesson and feeling guilty like it isn't unschooling. (?)
One more example; I hope I am not making too long a post: Like I said, he is definitely trying to figure out monetary values. I know because he is always asking me how much things cost. He is upset that we cannot buy a boat right now (I AM working on it) and keeps offering me the money in his bank (you know, what, $9) to buy one. (In the meantime we are making boats to float in the river and like I said I am working HARD on acquiring one for us, but it isn't like cookies where I can just run right out and get him one, but I digress from my point). So the other night we were in the grocery store and he was eating a doughnut. He looked at me and said "This costs $100." Should I have said "You think so?" or "ummhmmm?" ??? I didn't; I gave a lesson. I said "No, baby, $100 will buy all the food in our cart. Doughnuts are .50, which means you can get 2 doughnuts for one dollar."
So the question, again, is, should I NOT correct him and let him figure it all out on his own? Do I need to shut up and continue deschooling, or are these types of "lessons" okay?
Thanks for the help,
Millie
by the riverside
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Okay, please help my understanding. I have seen some folks (RU folks online) say some things that have made me think it is uncool to correct kids' fallacious ideologies or thinking...am I understanding correctly...is that true?
I wouldn't of course ever say to my son "-WRONG-," but is it better to let him persist with his own ideas about things, knowing he will eventually get them straight? Or should I help him when I see him having the wrong ideas about things?
I know I am not his teacher. I also don't like the terms facilitator or guide....I see my role as closer to personal assistant. BUT I am finding myself giving "lessons."
I need to give some concrete examples here. I see him these days working on concepts such as measurements and monetary values. He is measuring all sorts of things w his measuring tape and a ruler that he snaked from my sewing box. I saw him measure a raisin and say "It is 50 miles." ETC. I haven't corrected him on these measurements. He asks me what I am doing when he comes to my table, though, and I always tell him "I am measuring this fabric into 4 inch strips (or 5 inch squares, etc).
BUT I did teach a "lesson" on milage the other day. He sits right in the middle back seat and is forever asking me what various lights, knobs, buttons, gauges are in the car. So when we got in the car I said "Can you see this little button right here?" and showed him the trip odometer. I asked if he wanted to see how far a mile from our driveway was. And then we measured the milage to the library. And then when he saw something on tv where someone said something was 5 feet and he said "5 feet? What has 5 feet?" I told him it was a measurement and got his ruler and -yes- told him there are 12 inches in a foot, and then we measured out 5 feet. Everytime I do something like this I am so conscious of the fact that I am giving a lesson and feeling guilty like it isn't unschooling. (?)
One more example; I hope I am not making too long a post: Like I said, he is definitely trying to figure out monetary values. I know because he is always asking me how much things cost. He is upset that we cannot buy a boat right now (I AM working on it) and keeps offering me the money in his bank (you know, what, $9) to buy one. (In the meantime we are making boats to float in the river and like I said I am working HARD on acquiring one for us, but it isn't like cookies where I can just run right out and get him one, but I digress from my point). So the other night we were in the grocery store and he was eating a doughnut. He looked at me and said "This costs $100." Should I have said "You think so?" or "ummhmmm?" ??? I didn't; I gave a lesson. I said "No, baby, $100 will buy all the food in our cart. Doughnuts are .50, which means you can get 2 doughnuts for one dollar."
So the question, again, is, should I NOT correct him and let him figure it all out on his own? Do I need to shut up and continue deschooling, or are these types of "lessons" okay?
Thanks for the help,
Millie
by the riverside
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/20/2005 11:39:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
willsmamamillie@... writes:
giving him what he wants. If not, you may be taking it farther than he needs at
that point.
He asked a question. You gave him an answer. Not really a "lesson". Unless
you sat him down and said, "ok, I guess you are ready to learn about
measuring and we will have a lesson and drag it out in endless streams of info." Or
something like that. You are providing him answers to his questions, that's
all. If you don't, who will? If you feel like you are "teaching" too much,
then give him access to a computer or whatever and let him find what he needs to
know.
My son wanted to count all of his piggy bank money just yesterday and we
opened it up and he started picking out what he knew, we went over a few basics,
like 100 pennies in every dollar. He started to get a little "far away" and I
asked him if I was making it boring and he said, "I just don't get it all
yet." So we stopped, I am still very schoolie, he isn't. He counted what he
knew, I counted the rest and he was happy.
From your post, I don't see you being overly teacher-like. But you are
probably his main source for info., so when questions, ideas, or interests come up
you may feel like your teaching but you are exposing him to the answers or
places/resources to get the info. he needs. If you never did any of that, how
would he learn at all? They are natural learners but they need help too.
That's what a personal assistant does-if they need something, you get it or help
them find it.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
willsmamamillie@... writes:
> And then when he saw something on tv where someone said something was 5Is he ok with these "lessons", is his attention held? If so, then you are
> feet and he said "5 feet? What has 5 feet?" I told him it was a measurement
> and got his ruler and -yes- told him there are 12 inches in a foot, and then we
> measured out 5 feet. Everytime I do something like this I am so conscious
> of the fact that I am giving a lesson and feeling guilty like it isn't
> unschooling. (?)
giving him what he wants. If not, you may be taking it farther than he needs at
that point.
He asked a question. You gave him an answer. Not really a "lesson". Unless
you sat him down and said, "ok, I guess you are ready to learn about
measuring and we will have a lesson and drag it out in endless streams of info." Or
something like that. You are providing him answers to his questions, that's
all. If you don't, who will? If you feel like you are "teaching" too much,
then give him access to a computer or whatever and let him find what he needs to
know.
My son wanted to count all of his piggy bank money just yesterday and we
opened it up and he started picking out what he knew, we went over a few basics,
like 100 pennies in every dollar. He started to get a little "far away" and I
asked him if I was making it boring and he said, "I just don't get it all
yet." So we stopped, I am still very schoolie, he isn't. He counted what he
knew, I counted the rest and he was happy.
From your post, I don't see you being overly teacher-like. But you are
probably his main source for info., so when questions, ideas, or interests come up
you may feel like your teaching but you are exposing him to the answers or
places/resources to get the info. he needs. If you never did any of that, how
would he learn at all? They are natural learners but they need help too.
That's what a personal assistant does-if they need something, you get it or help
them find it.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/20/05 9:40:12 AM, willsmamamillie@... writes:
<< I have seen some folks (RU folks online) say some things that have made
me think it is uncool to correct kids' fallacious ideologies or thinking...am I
understanding correctly...is that true? >>
Would you correct a grown friend, or your husband?
And if so, in what tone of voice?
That's one tool to use to help you decide.
If it's something harmless they they'll easily figure out later, or that
won't hurt anything, I'd let it go. Do dead pets go to heaven? If they think so
and you don't, why argue at that point? Will dressing up in a Superman
outfit (or at least pinning a towel on with a diaper pin) enable one to jump off
the roof and fly? That one I would discuss RIGHT AWAY, and not leave to
discovery. Maybe they could try it off a coffee table onto some pillows, and maybe
you could gently suggest that if it DID work, towels would be way more
expensive than they are, and lots of people would be flying around the neighborhood.
-=- I also don't like the terms facilitator or guide....I see my role as
closer to personal assistant. BUT I am finding myself giving "lessons."-=-
Talking about things and showing a kid how a tape measure works isn't "a
lesson."
-=- I saw him measure a raisin and say "It is 50 miles." ETC. I haven't
corrected him on these measurements. -=-
He's playing around with words. If it really mattered about the raisin, or
about a mile, then he would really care, but he doesn't yet.
-=- I told him it was a measurement and got his ruler and -yes- told him
there are 12 inches in a foot, and then we measured out 5 feet. Everytime I do
something like this I am so conscious of the fact that I am giving a lesson and
feeling guilty like it isn't unschooling. -=-
You were answering his question when he asked. That's not "a lesson." A
lesson's when you initiate a session in measurement because of his age or the
time of year or because of some arbitrary reason.
If you went to another country and asked for a review of how the money
worked, if someone pulled all the change and bills out of their pocket and started
showing you, would you think you were getting a lesson, or gathering important
information from a knowledgeable source? When we were in England we not only
needed to know what the real names for the money was, but what the slang
words were. Same for people coming here. They need to know which one's five
cents, and ten, but they also need to know which one's "a dime."
-=- So the question, again, is, should I NOT correct him and let him figure
it all out on his own? -=-
It depends.
There's no one-size-fits-all-situations answer on that.
The principle is to help him without embarrassing him or frustrating him, so
take each situation on its own merits and realities and don't make a rule to
follow.
Sandra
<< I have seen some folks (RU folks online) say some things that have made
me think it is uncool to correct kids' fallacious ideologies or thinking...am I
understanding correctly...is that true? >>
Would you correct a grown friend, or your husband?
And if so, in what tone of voice?
That's one tool to use to help you decide.
If it's something harmless they they'll easily figure out later, or that
won't hurt anything, I'd let it go. Do dead pets go to heaven? If they think so
and you don't, why argue at that point? Will dressing up in a Superman
outfit (or at least pinning a towel on with a diaper pin) enable one to jump off
the roof and fly? That one I would discuss RIGHT AWAY, and not leave to
discovery. Maybe they could try it off a coffee table onto some pillows, and maybe
you could gently suggest that if it DID work, towels would be way more
expensive than they are, and lots of people would be flying around the neighborhood.
-=- I also don't like the terms facilitator or guide....I see my role as
closer to personal assistant. BUT I am finding myself giving "lessons."-=-
Talking about things and showing a kid how a tape measure works isn't "a
lesson."
-=- I saw him measure a raisin and say "It is 50 miles." ETC. I haven't
corrected him on these measurements. -=-
He's playing around with words. If it really mattered about the raisin, or
about a mile, then he would really care, but he doesn't yet.
-=- I told him it was a measurement and got his ruler and -yes- told him
there are 12 inches in a foot, and then we measured out 5 feet. Everytime I do
something like this I am so conscious of the fact that I am giving a lesson and
feeling guilty like it isn't unschooling. -=-
You were answering his question when he asked. That's not "a lesson." A
lesson's when you initiate a session in measurement because of his age or the
time of year or because of some arbitrary reason.
If you went to another country and asked for a review of how the money
worked, if someone pulled all the change and bills out of their pocket and started
showing you, would you think you were getting a lesson, or gathering important
information from a knowledgeable source? When we were in England we not only
needed to know what the real names for the money was, but what the slang
words were. Same for people coming here. They need to know which one's five
cents, and ten, but they also need to know which one's "a dime."
-=- So the question, again, is, should I NOT correct him and let him figure
it all out on his own? -=-
It depends.
There's no one-size-fits-all-situations answer on that.
The principle is to help him without embarrassing him or frustrating him, so
take each situation on its own merits and realities and don't make a rule to
follow.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/20/05 10:02:23 AM, b229d655@... writes:
<< My son wanted to count all of his piggy bank money just yesterday and we
opened it up and he started picking out what he knew, we went over a few
basics,
like 100 pennies in every dollar. He started to get a little "far away" and
I
asked him if I was making it boring and he said, "I just don't get it all
yet." So we stopped, I am still very schoolie, he isn't. He counted what he
knew, I counted the rest and he was happy. >>
When my kids were at that point, we went with "ten pennies make a dime" and I
would buy their piles of pennies with dimes. Or the other way around, if the
kid was into quantity. <g> It's not so esoteric or theoretical when you're
exchanging the coins instead of just naming numbers like "60 cents."
-=-That's what a personal assistant does-if they need something, you get it
or help
them find it.-=-
Right! And if they're mispronouncing the client's name, the personal
assistant might point that out, and if they think a donut costs $100 the personal
assistant might gently say, "No, two for a dollar, remember?"
Sandra
<< My son wanted to count all of his piggy bank money just yesterday and we
opened it up and he started picking out what he knew, we went over a few
basics,
like 100 pennies in every dollar. He started to get a little "far away" and
I
asked him if I was making it boring and he said, "I just don't get it all
yet." So we stopped, I am still very schoolie, he isn't. He counted what he
knew, I counted the rest and he was happy. >>
When my kids were at that point, we went with "ten pennies make a dime" and I
would buy their piles of pennies with dimes. Or the other way around, if the
kid was into quantity. <g> It's not so esoteric or theoretical when you're
exchanging the coins instead of just naming numbers like "60 cents."
-=-That's what a personal assistant does-if they need something, you get it
or help
them find it.-=-
Right! And if they're mispronouncing the client's name, the personal
assistant might point that out, and if they think a donut costs $100 the personal
assistant might gently say, "No, two for a dollar, remember?"
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< I wouldn't of course ever say to my son "-WRONG-," but is it better
to let him persist with his own ideas about things, knowing he will
eventually get them straight? Or should I help him when I see him having
the wrong ideas about things? >>>>>
This is one of those "it depends" questions. I'm glad you went on to give a
couple of examples. I have a lot of faith that Jayn will come to correct
understanding about what we might call "facts" in her own time - through the
dual processes of asking questions (needs my larger knowledge or ability to
look stuff up) and doing experiments (usually self generated and does *not*
want my help). My experience with her is that when I try to give some answer
that she has *not* requested the results are angry and forceful rejection of
my input or suggestions.
<<<< I need to give some concrete examples here. I see him these days
working on concepts such as measurements and monetary values. He is
measuring all sorts of things w his measuring tape and a ruler that he
snaked from my sewing box. I saw him measure a raisin and say "It is 50
miles." ETC. I haven't corrected him on these measurements. >>>>>
This is the kind of instance where I would also refrain from impinging on
Jayn with my desire to assist her. This is almost like overhearing a private
thought process. He is learning in his own way about the process of
measuring. Jayn does very similar things.
<<<<< BUT I did teach a "lesson" on milage the other day. He sits right
in the middle back seat and is forever asking me what various lights, knobs,
buttons, gauges are in the car. So when we got in the car I said "Can you
see this little button right here?" and showed him the trip odometer. I
asked if he wanted to see how far a mile from our driveway was. And then we
measured the milage to the library. And then when he saw something on tv
where someone said something was 5 feet and he said "5 feet? What has 5
feet?" I told him it was a measurement and got his ruler and -yes- told him
there are 12 inches in a foot, and then we measured out 5 feet. Everytime I
do something like this I am so conscious of the fact that I am giving a
lesson and feeling guilty like it isn't unschooling. (?)>>>>>
It only become an imposed "lesson" if his eyes have glazed over, or he is
looking out the window, or he has started to fidget and wiggle, or he starts
saying, "don't TELL me!!" or some similar rejecting phrase, and then you
persist.
It sounds like he is very interested in real numbers and measurements. It
sounds like you were ready to help him in exactly the way he wanted help at
the exact moment he was ready to receive the information, linked to his real
life (as against some hypothetical math book problem). Thank goodness for
Unschooling that allows these special moments of magical timing to occur!
And they keep on occurring. Wonderful.
<<<< One more example; I hope I am not making too long a post: Like I
said, he is definitely trying to figure out monetary values. I know because
he is always asking me how much things cost. He is upset that we cannot buy
a boat right now (I AM working on it) and keeps offering me the money in his
bank (you know, what, $9) to buy one. (In the meantime we are making boats
to float in the river and like I said I am working HARD on acquiring one for
us, but it isn't like cookies where I can just run right out and get him
one, but I digress from my point). So the other night we were in the
grocery store and he was eating a doughnut. He looked at me and said "This
costs $100." Should I have said "You think so?" or "ummhmmm?" ??? I
didn't; I gave a lesson. I said "No, baby, $100 will buy all the food in
our cart. Doughnuts are .50, which means you can get 2 doughnuts for one
dollar."
So the question, again, is, should I NOT correct him and let him figure it
all out on his own? Do I need to shut up and continue deschooling, or are
these types of "lessons" okay? >>>>
I don't think he was really making a statement with the donut cost - it
sounds more like a question disguised - one of the experiments - offering up
a theory about the dollar value of donuts and then getting a better picture.
BTW what I do with Jayn, to help her see the relative costs of things is
relate prices to familiar objects - eg "this would cost the same as 10
Barbies".
Only "shut up" if it is clear that he has stopped listening by whatever cues
he gives. But certainly continue deschooling.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 2/21/2005
to let him persist with his own ideas about things, knowing he will
eventually get them straight? Or should I help him when I see him having
the wrong ideas about things? >>>>>
This is one of those "it depends" questions. I'm glad you went on to give a
couple of examples. I have a lot of faith that Jayn will come to correct
understanding about what we might call "facts" in her own time - through the
dual processes of asking questions (needs my larger knowledge or ability to
look stuff up) and doing experiments (usually self generated and does *not*
want my help). My experience with her is that when I try to give some answer
that she has *not* requested the results are angry and forceful rejection of
my input or suggestions.
<<<< I need to give some concrete examples here. I see him these days
working on concepts such as measurements and monetary values. He is
measuring all sorts of things w his measuring tape and a ruler that he
snaked from my sewing box. I saw him measure a raisin and say "It is 50
miles." ETC. I haven't corrected him on these measurements. >>>>>
This is the kind of instance where I would also refrain from impinging on
Jayn with my desire to assist her. This is almost like overhearing a private
thought process. He is learning in his own way about the process of
measuring. Jayn does very similar things.
<<<<< BUT I did teach a "lesson" on milage the other day. He sits right
in the middle back seat and is forever asking me what various lights, knobs,
buttons, gauges are in the car. So when we got in the car I said "Can you
see this little button right here?" and showed him the trip odometer. I
asked if he wanted to see how far a mile from our driveway was. And then we
measured the milage to the library. And then when he saw something on tv
where someone said something was 5 feet and he said "5 feet? What has 5
feet?" I told him it was a measurement and got his ruler and -yes- told him
there are 12 inches in a foot, and then we measured out 5 feet. Everytime I
do something like this I am so conscious of the fact that I am giving a
lesson and feeling guilty like it isn't unschooling. (?)>>>>>
It only become an imposed "lesson" if his eyes have glazed over, or he is
looking out the window, or he has started to fidget and wiggle, or he starts
saying, "don't TELL me!!" or some similar rejecting phrase, and then you
persist.
It sounds like he is very interested in real numbers and measurements. It
sounds like you were ready to help him in exactly the way he wanted help at
the exact moment he was ready to receive the information, linked to his real
life (as against some hypothetical math book problem). Thank goodness for
Unschooling that allows these special moments of magical timing to occur!
And they keep on occurring. Wonderful.
<<<< One more example; I hope I am not making too long a post: Like I
said, he is definitely trying to figure out monetary values. I know because
he is always asking me how much things cost. He is upset that we cannot buy
a boat right now (I AM working on it) and keeps offering me the money in his
bank (you know, what, $9) to buy one. (In the meantime we are making boats
to float in the river and like I said I am working HARD on acquiring one for
us, but it isn't like cookies where I can just run right out and get him
one, but I digress from my point). So the other night we were in the
grocery store and he was eating a doughnut. He looked at me and said "This
costs $100." Should I have said "You think so?" or "ummhmmm?" ??? I
didn't; I gave a lesson. I said "No, baby, $100 will buy all the food in
our cart. Doughnuts are .50, which means you can get 2 doughnuts for one
dollar."
So the question, again, is, should I NOT correct him and let him figure it
all out on his own? Do I need to shut up and continue deschooling, or are
these types of "lessons" okay? >>>>
I don't think he was really making a statement with the donut cost - it
sounds more like a question disguised - one of the experiments - offering up
a theory about the dollar value of donuts and then getting a better picture.
BTW what I do with Jayn, to help her see the relative costs of things is
relate prices to familiar objects - eg "this would cost the same as 10
Barbies".
Only "shut up" if it is clear that he has stopped listening by whatever cues
he gives. But certainly continue deschooling.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 2/21/2005